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Subject: World Turned Upside Down (not the song) From: Rick Fielding Date: 22 Jan 99 - 06:28 PM While reading the "Led Zeppelin" thread, I was musing to myself (who else would care?) about whether anyone had ever been turned on to "Zep" or the Stones or Clapton by FIRST hearing one of the traditional 1st generation blues artists, as opposed to the other way around. Then I got to thinking that it's been almost forty years since the blues re-issue recordings started appearing, and it's possible that some Mudcatters started out as folkies and through that music discovered some of the rock bands of the 60s and 70s. Is it possible? In case you were looking for the song with this title, see below and: Search for "upside" threads |
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Subject: RE: From: Barbara Date: 22 Jan 99 - 09:16 PM Well, Rick, I might qualify if coming at it from all directions at once counts. I went from Lawrence Welk's bouncing ball and Andy Williams to the PP&M and Dylan school of folk, then to Chad Mitchell Trio and Tom Lehrer (Anyone remember TW3?), and then to Seagall/Schwall (then called Cat Mother and the All Night Blues Boys) whose stuff I heard at the Ann Arbor Blues festival along with Lightnin Hopkins, if memory serves me. (Like Big Mick said, if you can remember the '60s you weren't there). And after listening to some of these blues guys, and Taj Mahal, and Sonny and Brownie, I found Fresh Cream and Greatful Dead (Workingman's Dead and American Beauty) and liked them for having their roots showing. Course at the same time I was listening to Beatles and Rolling Stones, Doors, Mothers of Invention, Leonard Cohen, Simon and Garfunkle, Michael Cooney, Sara Grey, Gordon Bok (I found his first record in the store in 1965, has a picture of him on the cover trying to look older, smoking a pipe and gazing out to sea. I b'lieve it was produced by Paul Stookey.) (and then there was the classical stuff I was listening to). Does this meet your specs? Blessings, Barbara
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Subject: RE: From: Duane D. Date: 23 Jan 99 - 12:47 AM Yes it's possible and it happened to me to some extent. I grew up with folk music, especially what I remember as a youngster in the 50's, I suppose what was left over from the 40's and of course the folk music of the 60's, ie: Peter, Paul,& Mary; early Bob Dylan; Pete Seeger. I remember religiously watching Hootenanny every week and desiring to learn guitar and be in a group like The New Christie Minstrels. And yes, Barbara, I DO remember the much too short lived TW3. I think David Frost got his start in TV on that show. (I wonder if there are any tapes of TW3 out there somewhere?) I started collecting blues albums like Mississippi John Hurt, Larry Johnson, Roy Bookbinder, Rev. Gary Davis... I also matured as a folkie with the more recent folks ie: BMT, Stan Rogers, Bill Staines, Claudia Schmidt... Only in recent years I've been exposed to early Grateful Dead, Hot Tuna, Rolling Stones, etc., through friends and co-workers and I have an appreciation for these groups now that I never had before. |
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Subject: RE: From: Duane D. Date: 23 Jan 99 - 01:29 AM Just a few further thoughts for Barbara (I know I'm straying from the subject of the thread) You joggled my memory with the mention of That Was The Week That Was. It's a shame the show had such a short life. The political humor and especially the songs were worth remembering. Nowadays when I watch PBS and see Mark Russell, it is possible for me to see him as a modern day equivalent of Tom Lehrer from the TW3 era. |
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Subject: RE: world turned upside down From: Philippa Date: 23 Jan 99 - 09:21 AM I saw the heading and thought you were discussing Leon Rosselson's song about Gerard Winstanley and the diggers (early English working-class radicals). Now I see from the DT that there's a couple of other songs you could've had in mind as well see [world turned upside down] |
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Subject: RE: From: Barbara Date: 23 Jan 99 - 10:35 AM That's what I thought too, Phillipa. Neat song. I like a lot of Rosselson's writing. However, I'm in no danger of memorizing and/or performing it.(grin) Duane, that's what I always think of when I see Mark Russell, too, and it makes me miss TW3. And in regards my above post, Mitch Miller not Lawrence Welk, Grateful Dead, and Cat Mother and the All Night NEWS Boys. SHEESH. Blessings, Barbara |
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Subject: RE: From: rick fielding Date: 23 Jan 99 - 12:11 PM Indeed the Rosselson song was in my mind when I wrote the thread. Struck me as someone coming to Clapton's "Crossroads" after having heard Robert Johnson would surely be "the world turned upside down". |
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Subject: RE: From: The Shambles Date: 14 May 00 - 03:32 PM I found this site and it explains in much detail, the background to the song and The Diggers |
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Subject: RE: From: Liz the Squeak Date: 14 May 00 - 03:35 PM There are 20 year olds now who follow the punk fashions, is that because it is what their parents did? Makes you feel kind of old........ LTS whoisgoingtodyethegreyoutofherhairtonightifshecan..... |
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Subject: RE: From: Lonesome EJ Date: 15 May 00 - 01:44 AM I recall reading that when Cornwallis surrendered to Washington, ending the Revolutionary War, that the British band present at the ceremony performed a tune called The World Turned Upside Down, thus scooping the Diggers, at least as far as the title goes. |
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Subject: RE: From: Sorcha Date: 15 May 00 - 09:45 AM I grew up in Winfield, KS, USA--home of the Walnut Valley Bluegrass Festival. Winfield is also called Music Town, USA--Readers Digest did an article (March 1954, I think) about Winfield.In reference to Rick's other thread, I would guess that 100% of people raised in Winfield have, at some time in their lives, been musicians.
Winfield has the BEST, shcool music program of any place I have ever lived. I don't know that I "came"* to any kind of music from any other kind. I had Orchestra/Classical at school, Hard Classic Country at home, Pop/Rock in the Stereo, Bluegrass/Folk at the Festival,Blues at The BBQ Hut, etc. I probably had heard it all and played most of it by the time I was 13. Just a lot of doors into the same room. *==(At least I don't think I came to music until I was 18--BG) |
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Subject: RE: From: roopoo Date: 15 May 00 - 05:38 PM So here was I expecting something on mediaeval carving: "The World Turned Upside Down" is the title of a book I have on misericords! Liz - I 'm going grey disgracefully! Once you start in the bottle club... Mind you, if I could get rid of the slack neck, I'd be happy! mouldy |
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Subject: RE: The world turned upside down From: Jacob B Date: 15 May 00 - 06:04 PM I assumed this thread was about the American Revolution-era marching tune. Sure, I've heard the song about the Diggers, but why assume a thread is about a song over twenty years old when it could be about one over two hundred years old? By the way, I've heard the story about Cornwallis' troops leaving Yorktown after the surrender to the tune of The World Turned Upside Down. However, I've been told by a friend who reads historical research for a hobby, that researchers have looked through the dozens of surviving diaries of people who lived in Yorktown at the time of the surrender. Many of them mention some of the marching tunes that the different British units played. Many different tunes are mentioned, but none of them mention The World Turned Upside Down. It might well have been played by some unit, since it was a popular marching tune, but there is no documentary evidence of it, and it is not true that all of the British troops marched out to that tune. That was the invention of some later historian, who apparently felt that it would have been a particularly appropriate tune for them to have used. My earliest musical influence? Mitch Miller. I remember distinctly stopping in my tracks in the middle of the kitchen when his recording of The Yellow Rose Of Texas came on the air. I'd never heard anything like it, and it started my love affair with the sound of a group of people singing unaccompanied. |
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Subject: RE: From: Peter T. Date: 15 May 00 - 06:47 PM Hi Rick, I am someone who never listened to Eric Clapton or Led Zeppelin (except by osmosis I guess in that period) until after I had listened to the early blues people. I had no interest in hard rock, or lengthy guitar hooha, except Jimi Hendrix, and not even that much. I had no idea that they were going around covering old songs. I heard the originals first. On the other hand, I did listen to the Rolling Stones' early albums many years before I listened to Muddy Waters. I also always thought that Van Morrison and Them wrote "Baby Please Don't Go". yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: From: Sorcha Date: 15 May 00 - 07:06 PM Oh God, takes me back, it does. Mitch Miller, Lawrence Welk and his Irish tenors, and the Friday Night Fights, all seen at my Auntie's house on overnights..........follow the bouncing ball, now.......(and my Auntie would tickle my back for hours, which no one at home would do. She had these wonderful long fingernails.....) |
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Subject: RE: From: Lonesome EJ Date: 15 May 00 - 09:38 PM I had heard NO original blues artists until Clapton, Page, Presley, Hendrix et al introduced me to their music. My Mom and Dad were very much into the Big Band stuff and the Fifties lounge lizards like Sinatra, Johnny Ray, Perry Como and the rest. In those days our first exposure to trad music was what we learned in elementary school, like Caissons go Rolling, Blue Tailed Fly, Working on the Railroad. I do remember some early folk-revival things, Kingston's Tom Dooley,Brothers Four's Green Fields. The first record I was really into (after a brief infatuation with Purple People Eater and My Friend the Witch Doctor) was Richie Valens' first album. My family moved back from California to Kentucky in 1960, and I got hit broadside by Country Music, which I at first hated. Unlike California, it was everywhere. This was the era when the Opry reigned supreme, and every redneck in Kentucky was a Country fan. I also disliked most soul music. The first blues oriented rock group I really enjoyed was the Yardbirds. There was no question to me about I'm a Man...I knew they wrote it. It wasn't until 1976 that I attended the Telluride Blues Festival and saw John Lee Hooker, Muddy Waters and Lightnin' Hopkins that I began to get excited about the traditional blues. It was also in the mid-seventies that I latched onto Newgrass Revival when they were still a bar band at the Storefront Congregation in Louisville. At the time they played a blend of their own "newgrass" material, along with the traditional tunes and Monroe and Jim n Jesse stuff. Along with Poco, Burritos, Marshall Tucker, and the Sweetheart of the Rodeo era Byrds, I learned that Country could be cool. So I guess I came to trad music, folk and blues, through the rock n roll back door. |
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Subject: RE: From: The Shambles Date: 16 May 00 - 02:26 AM LEJ Was not 'I'm A Man', by The Spencer Davis Group, and Stevie Winwood? |
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Subject: RE: From: AndyG Date: 16 May 00 - 08:16 AM Jacob,
Because it might have been a reference to a song over 350 years old ?
Doesn't seem to be in the DB (surprised me!).
Andy "Ex-ECWS" G |
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Subject: RE: From: Jacob B Date: 16 May 00 - 10:05 AM Thanks for the words, Andy. Now I'll ask my wife (the English history expert) to explain to me what the battle of Naseby was! Jacob |
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Subject: RE: From: AndyG Date: 16 May 00 - 10:30 AM Jacob,
The Battle of Naseby was the battle that, to all intents and purposes, decided the outcome of the English Civil War. (Massive simplification but I think justified by events.)
AndyG |
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Subject: RE: From: Jim the Bart Date: 16 May 00 - 01:13 PM I had listened to some of the old blues masters and had a hard time "finding my way in" to the music. I remember particularly picking up some Lightnin Hopkins albums on folkways that I never really connected with until I began listening to some of the British youngsters translate the music to my pop sensibilities - from there it was a slam dunk. I think bands like Canned Heat (though they were American, I know), Fleetwood Mac and even John Mayall did a good job of adjusting our ears to the real thing. Other Americans like Spider John Koerner, Dave Ray and Tony Glover also helped, for me at least. One of my favorite live blues memories goes back to New Years Eve 1968. I saw Muddy Waters and Fleetwood Mac (with Peter Green) at the Kinetic Playground in Chicago. Muddy was electric and unbelievable. Fleetwood Mac did "Yer Blues" and slayed me. The kicker to the night, though, was the closing act - The Byrds, with Clarence White. After 3 hours of the best in blues, I was astounded by the way those guys played country (which I had always hated). I heard Roger McGuinn do "Old Blue" with finger-picks and I was hooked. That led to twenty-odd years (some extremely odd) following a path back to Hank Williams, Jimmie Rogersm, Merle Haggard and Lefty Frizzell - but that's another story. . . Oh yeah - the First ZEP and The Blues Breakers w/John Mayall are still two of my favorite electric blues albums. |
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Subject: RE: From: Lonesome EJ Date: 16 May 00 - 01:16 PM The I'm a Man I'm thinking of was the Elmore McDaniels song that goes
Pretty women stand in line |
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Subject: RE: From: Jim the Bart Date: 16 May 00 - 01:39 PM What a goof - I got so carried away that I forgot the thread theme. It seems so natural to a "child of the 60's" to come to the acoustic blues from the electric side, rather than the other way around. I guess the way you cross that bridge depends on your initial orientation and exposure. It's often a revelation to find the source of a tune you're used to hearing played in one way. I find that although the sheer volume of Cream's versions of Robert Johnson's songs gives them a certain awesome power, the original versions have a transcendent force and power that truly "inspires awe"- even when you're straight. I would think that, in spite of the raw musicianship, if you heard Robert Johnson first, you might wonder what all the "Clapton is God" stuff was all about. |
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Subject: RE: From: The Shambles Date: 16 May 00 - 02:25 PM Oh, Mannish Boy. |
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Subject: RE: From: Irish sergeant Date: 16 May 00 - 08:59 PM I seem to recall that "The World Turned Upside Down" was played at Yorktown When Cornwallis surrendered. However we're getting into areas where legend and history tend to merge. Indeed it was a marching song and I took that someone played it but I was never clear as to whom. I assumed the British but it may well have been the Americans many of whom fought in the French and Indian war(Seven years war for our European catters). The first cross to rock & Roll or Blues from folk was the old song Stagger Lee in the '50s. My older brother used to play it at his parties. I, being 4 or 5, was supposed to be in bed. The "evils" of rock and roll proved much more entertaining. reguards neil |
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Subject: RE: World turned upside down From: GUEST,Pete peterson at work Date: 17 May 00 - 09:24 AM The tune which I use for "The world turned upside down" is a march tune in 4/4 in the shape of a reel, which I found in a copy of a 1800's fifing book, and which I also was tought by a member of the Mattatuck Fife and Drum Corps which claims continuous history back to the Revolution and, moreover, that they heard it played at Yorktown. B*U*T here I am looking through Chappell's Popular Music of Olden Times (the Dover reprint) and find a song about the English civil war called "When the King enjoys his own again" and it is the SAME tune". The tune that is in the Burl Ives songbook (my copy cost me 35 cents, back in 1960) is a completely different tune, in 6/8 time, and both words and melody are comply unmemorable. The fifing tune is a wonderful one. |
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Subject: RE: From: Jacob B Date: 17 May 00 - 09:55 AM Pete, Check out AndyG's post to me above, which has a link labelled "a song over 350 years old?" It leads to the words for "The World Turned Upside Down", which was written in 1646 to the tune of "When the King enjoys his own again". |
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Subject: RE: From: wysiwyg Date: 17 May 00 - 09:59 AM I have a cassette tape, The World Turned Upside Down (GM 110) by Barry Phillips & Friends: instrumental arrangements of music popular around the time of the American Revolution.
It includes the tune of this name and much more, and is one of our favorites. Good for hours and hours. Here are some excerpts from the promo material and liner notes. Some of the following appears with the tape's J-card, but the rest must only be on the CD booklet; I found them online. "Secular social music permeated every corner of society. Instrument owners included urban and rural colonists; men, women and children; blacks and whites; all social classes: the middle and upper, the humble and ordinary, Puritan and non-Puritan. All types of social music were played by the colonists: popular, traditional, and serious." --Barbara Lambert, Social Music in Colonial Boston Legend has it that as Cornwallis' troops surrendered their arms at Yorktown in 1781, they played a march popularly known as The World Turned Upside Down. The tune was first published in 1643 in the British Isles as When the King Enjoys His Own Again -- a favorite among anti-Cromwell Royalists who were the revolutionaries of their time. The melody soon crossed the Atlantic under several titles, including Derry Down, The Old Women Taught Wisdom and The World Turned Upside Down. Though scholars and historians continue to debate among themselves, no one can now confirm or refute the time-honored reports of the redcoats actually playing the tune at the battlefield ceremony. In any event, to the once-proud army of the mightiest empire in Europe, it certainly must have seemed as if The World Turned Upside Down. This version was taken from Chappell's Popular Music of the Old Times. Music and dancing, as in most societies, were part of the very fabric of life in England and Northern Europe. Settlers emigrating to the New World naturally brought their pastimes with them. Though much has been written of the influence of the Puritans, dancing in the colonies was never forbidden except perhaps on the Sabbath, though some theologians were notorious for their opposition to any expression of pleasure, no matter how innocent. The fiery sermons of zealots like Cotton Mather, and the terror of the infamous Salem witch trials and other persecutions have perhaps crowded the equally authentic images of village folk dancing and making music from our perception of early American life. Much spontaneous dancing and merriment took place in homes and taverns, in parlors and out of doors, and on any festive occasion. Many of the settlers' dances were from the well loved book The English Dancing Master by John Playford (1651). These group dances were similar to our modern square and contra dances and were simple to perform. There were in the Boston area a number of "dancing masters" who gave a more professional level of instruction. From the formal gavotte, minuet and bourrÚe to the circle and squares for eight, dancing was always popular among all classes of people in the colonies. Just as the basic dances were imported from the old world, so were the lively tunes to which they danced. Books were not always easy to come by in the New World and many colonists wrote out their own collections of tunes, lyrics and dance instructions in journals and commonplace books which are now a rich treasury of historical documentation of life in those times -- and an invaluable source of material for our album.
(Acknowledgements include Professor Daniel Patterson, University of North Carolina.) To visit Gourd Music's site, Click Here ~Susan~ |
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Subject: RE: From: Whistle Stop Date: 17 May 00 - 10:39 AM That was enlightening, Susan -- thank you. I have seen that CD and thought to pick it up; having read your review, I think I'll do that. When I was in the military I was stationed in Yorktown for a time, and spent a number of afternoons exploring the battlefield and learning the history. The ground has been marched over a number of times, not only during the Revolution, but also in the Civil War during McClellan's Peninsula campaign. The "World Turned Upside Down" legend is a good one, given the irony of the title, and may in fact be true. My guess is that, if the tune was a popular marching tune of the time, they probably played it, and a number of others, as the surrender ceremony was taking place. There were thousands of troops engaged in that battle, and it would have taken them a while to march by company to the field of surrender and stack their weapons. Wouldn't be surprised if a lot of tunes were played before the surrender ceremony concluded. |
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Subject: World turned upside down From: GUEST,Pete Peterson at work Date: 17 May 00 - 02:44 PM THANKS! I had always SAId they were the same tune and had suspected that the British said they were playing World. . .and actually played 'Till the King enjoys his own again" -- secondary meaning obvious. My mother taught piano; my father was almost hopeless musically (good marriage, lasted 44 years till death did them part) but wanted to learn kepboard and worked and worked on "till the King enjoys hiw own again" on an electronic organ where you could playmeolody in RH and ONE note in LH and a primitive computer would create chords. We played it at his memorial service. Thanks again, you've brought back some good memories |
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Subject: RE: From: GUEST,Barton Horvath Date: 17 May 00 - 04:11 PM There seem to be two melodies floating around at the above sites, on in a stately 4/4 and the other a brisk 6/8, and not the same melody at all. Which is which? Both say "The World Turned Upside Down" and "Til the King Enjoys His Own Again" are the same song, but the melodies are not the same, though words scanning the same can be sung to both. |
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Subject: RE: The World Turned Upside Down From: GUEST,Chris Kinder Date: 29 Jan 11 - 06:14 PM Does anyone know of a version of the Diggers Song, Leon Rossellson's World Turned Upside Down, performed and recorded sometime in the 1980s or late 70s by a vocal group called Out of the Rain? This is the most moving version of this I have heard. But all I have of it is a performance on cassette tape which I recorded from a radio program. I would love to find a digital recording of this. Thanks so much for your response. -- Chris Kinder (Oakland, Calif, US) |
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Subject: RE: The World Turned Upside Down From: michaelr Date: 29 Jan 11 - 06:37 PM Guest, Chris -- the song was on Out of the Rain's 1985 cassette album "A Common Treasury". One of the band's members was Mudcatter radriano, who lives in San Francisco. If you join here, you can send him a PM (personal message). Cheers, Michael |
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Subject: RE: The World Turned Upside Down From: Chris Kinder Date: 29 Jan 11 - 10:24 PM Dear Michael, Thanks so much for your response to my question about an Out of the Rain version of World Turned Upside Down. I joined Mudcat, but can't seem to send a message to mudcatter Radriano unless I have his(or her) "mudcat" name. Can you help me out here? Thanks again. -- Chris Kinder |
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Subject: RE: The World Turned Upside Down From: michaelr Date: 29 Jan 11 - 10:32 PM Welcome to Mudcat, Chris. At the top of the Forum page, there is a link to your Personal Page. Click on that and then find the link "Send a Message". Then just put "radriano" (that is his Mudcat handle) into the address box, and Robert is your mother's brother. Cheers, Michael |
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Subject: RE: The World Turned Upside Down From: michaelr Date: 30 Jan 11 - 07:39 PM refresh for Chris -- I sent a PM to radriano, but he doesn't seem to be around here all that much these days. If he doesn't respond, you could try a PM to Chanteyranger who I believe is in touch with him. |
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Subject: RE: The World Turned Upside Down From: Charley Noble Date: 30 Jan 11 - 07:53 PM Both Peter and Richard occasionally check in here. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: The World Turned Upside Down From: radriano Date: 31 Jan 11 - 12:11 PM Hey, Chris: My Mudcat name is radriano. I don't have a digital version of "The World Turned Upside Down." In fact I'm out of stock of the cassette it's on (A Common Treasury). Chanteyranger and I will be back in the recording studio soon. I'll talk with our sound engineer and see if I can't get a digital file of the song for you made. Send me a Personal Message with your contact information. Or, if you prefer, you can e-mail me at: radriano50@gmail.com Cheers, Radriano |
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Subject: RE: The World Turned Upside Down From: michaelr Date: 31 Jan 11 - 01:18 PM Alternately, since I have the cassette, I could easily make a cassette copy of it. Chris, are you there? |
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Subject: RE: The World Turned Upside Down From: Chris Kinder Date: 02 Feb 11 - 12:07 AM Thanks so much to everyone for your helpful replies. Yes I'm here. To Radriano: yes I would love to get a digital copy of Out of the Rain's version of World Turned Upside Down. As I said, all I have now is a tape copy off a radio show in the 1980s. I have never forgotten it--I put it on a compilation tape called Rebellin' in the Belly at the time. (OK, this is really dating me.) Radriano--thanks for the offer to make a digital file. I will email you my contact info. Thanks again to all, Chris Kinder |
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