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In the Middle of the Ocean There Grows a Tall Tree

Barry Finn 15 Jan 06 - 11:44 PM
Malcolm Douglas 16 Jan 06 - 02:12 AM
MissouriMud 16 Jan 06 - 12:44 PM
nutty 16 Jan 06 - 04:05 PM
GUEST,ClaireBear 16 Jan 06 - 04:18 PM
Charley Noble 17 Jan 06 - 08:30 AM
Charley Noble 19 Jan 06 - 05:32 PM
Barry Finn 19 Jan 06 - 08:06 PM
GUEST 20 Jan 06 - 02:31 PM
Dan Schatz 20 Jan 06 - 03:03 PM
Abby Sale 20 Jan 06 - 03:37 PM
Dan Schatz 20 Jan 06 - 04:15 PM
MissouriMud 20 Jan 06 - 05:07 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 20 Jan 06 - 08:31 PM
Barry Finn 20 Jan 06 - 09:09 PM
Abby Sale 20 Jan 06 - 09:21 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 20 Jan 06 - 11:50 PM
Charley Noble 21 Jan 06 - 10:24 AM
Abby Sale 21 Jan 06 - 12:23 PM
Charley Noble 21 Jan 06 - 12:43 PM
Snuffy 21 Jan 06 - 01:52 PM
Abby Sale 21 Jan 06 - 02:40 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 21 Jan 06 - 05:05 PM
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Subject: Middle of the Ocean There's Grows
From: Barry Finn
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 11:44 PM

I'm looking for some songs that have a line similar to "In the middle of the ocean there grows a tall tree" so I might get some backround & maybe some histories, dates & origins of this expression.

Old Paint:
In the middle of the ocean there grows a tall tree
I'll never prove false to the gal that loves

Flash Company:
In the middle of the ocean there shall grow a myrtle tree
If ever I prove false, my love, to the girl that loves me.

American Stranger/I'm a Stranger in This Land:
In the middle/midst of the ocean shall spring a myrtle/maypole tree
If ever I prove unfaithful/false to the girl that loves me

It's a bit like the song The Lambs on the Green Hills

The lambs on the green hills, they sport and they play
And many strawberries grow round the salt sea
How sad is my heart when my love is away
How many's the ships sails the ocean

The above is a little rational the below False Bride

The ladies and gentlemen asked o' me
How many black berries grow roon the salt sea
I gade aen back with a tear in my e'e
How many ships sail in the forest.

Yup I know, showing impossibilities, right & it being used with a bit of poetic license. At least in with the above 2 songs (The Lambs on the Green Hills & The False Bride) there's one song that seems to have a bit more rational than the other. I'm wondering if anyone has any other info on another song that might not have such or as much riddling (hum, Riddling?)? Or is it as simple to "the folk" as a "on a cold day in hell"?
Thanks
Barry


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Subject: RE: In the Middle of the Ocean There's Grows
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 02:12 AM

It also appears in a couple of examples of Some Rival has Stolen my True Love Away, but I think as a borrowed "floater". See thread version of 'Some tyrant has stolen'.


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Subject: RE: In the Middle of the Ocean There's Grows
From: MissouriMud
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 12:44 PM

Bruce Molsky's take on the line in Old Paint verse is that it is to be taken along the lines of "and if you believe that whopper about the tree in the ocean then you're sure to fall for the 'I'll never prove false' line

- and I have this bridge ...


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Subject: RE: In the Middle of the Ocean There's Grows
From: nutty
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 04:05 PM

There are a number of Broadsides of The American Stranger/The Sporting Youth in the Bodlean collection (circa 1840)that mention myrtle tree/willow tree.


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Subject: RE: In the Middle of the Ocean There's Grows
From: GUEST,ClaireBear
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 04:18 PM

Is this children's song on point?

THERE'S A HOLE IN THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA

There's a hole in the bottom of the sea,
There's a hole in the bottom of the sea.
There's a hole, there's a hole,
There's a hole in the bottom of the sea.

There's a tree in the hole in the bottom of the sea,
There's a tree in the hole in the bottom of the sea.
There's a hole, there's a hole,
There's a hole in the bottom of the sea.

There's a trunk on the tree...
There's a limb on the trunk...
There's a branch on the limb...

etc. etc. etc.


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Subject: RE: In the Middle of the Ocean There's Grows
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Jan 06 - 08:30 AM

This thread had me stumped for a while and I was I thinking that Barry was barquing up the wrong tree! But now I'm thinking there may be a spinter of truth to his query. There are many references in folksongs to trees: the oak and the ash and the bonny whatever tree, and there's the blackjack oak, and they little to do with lumber or even kindling a good fire. Consider this typical verse:

Fair maidens take warning, take warning from me,
Never trust your affections to a green growing tree,
For the roots they will wither and turn into dust;
There's not a man in ten thousand a poor girl can trust!

But this verse may really get to the root of Barry's query:

I saw a flea heave a tree,
Fie, man, fie!
I saw a flea heave a tree,
Who's the fool now?
I saw a flea heave a tree,
Twenty leagues out to sea!
Thou has well drunken and who's the fool now?

Here we have a clear explanation of how the tree got out in the ocean. Well, maybe not out into the "middle" of the ocean but at least out beyond the horizon. At least the water is wide out there, and without a boat I cannot cross over...

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: In the Middle of the Ocean There's Grows
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 05:32 PM

When's Barry going to come back and tend his thread?

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: In the Middle of the Ocean There's Grows
From: Barry Finn
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 08:06 PM

Hi Charlie, I'm still here. Pretty cute about Barquing up a tall tree & that's there because of a flee.

Thanks to all who've posted back. Thanks nutty, I did go to the Bodleian collection a few times. I found some versions of American Stranger, Some Tyrant Has Stolen My True love, Phoenix & Female, White Cockade all versions & variants that seem related. The floating verse seems to appear in these but not elsewhere that I've found & none that I have found seem to differ much from one another. The songs go back to, the earliest I've found 1680's but the verse is, again the earliest I've found, from around the turn of the last century. The odd thing I've come across, although this is a floater verse once it's crossed the ocean I can only find it in 1 song Old Paint, collected from Jesse Morris 1942, Dalhart, Texas by Lomax who believes this to be the oldest version. So how did this floater verse get from here to there & only end up in one version of one song (that I know of) in America? Thanks Malcolm Douglas I not only followed your link but I also follow you through a number of interesting threads on this subject & and from those treads ended up with a lot of info from both you & others. Still digging.
Barry


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Subject: RE: In the Middle of the Ocean There Grows a Tall
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 02:31 PM

Barry,
Common motif in number of songs.
Beautiful example in Scots song Lass of Dundee aka Charming Polly/ Buchan Laddie, Courting Ower Slow, which also includes the apocalyptic verse about melting rocks and disappearing sun, moon and stars - great stuff
Best,
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: In the Middle of the Ocean There Grows a Tall
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 03:03 PM

The version of "American Stranger" I sing has the verse thusly:

"The ships upon the salt salt see may sail without a sail
The little wee fishes grow 'till they turn into muckle whales
In the middle of the ocean will grow a rowan tree
If ever I prove false to her that's given her love to me."

Ewan MacColl has said that versions of "The Plains of Amerikee" date back to before the American Revolution, but since we're deeling with such a formulaic verse, it could have been inserted at any time.

I suspect we may only find the true answer when apples grow on an orange tree....

Dan Schatz


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Subject: RE: In the Middle of the Ocean There Grows a Tall
From: Abby Sale
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 03:37 PM

I learned "American Stranger" from MacColl's singing about 100 years ago. I much like the song but it was an especial kick for me to sing it in Scotland.

His was very similar to Greig~Duncan "A" version. (Book 7, song 1469)

I guess you've allowed that it's just giving impossible situations if ever I prove false - ie, I can't prove false. But a couple of words changed have the statement make more sense. From G~D:

In the middle of the ocean there may grow a myrtle tree
Before that I prove false to the girl that loves me
(I think MacColl sings 'mountain tree')

I think the difference from your quote is that the impossible thing must happen first. "A cold day in hell."

Is that what you meant?

The G~D editors do not go into this verse but do quote Sharp that the singer's character is also inconsistant. He claims not to be rakish then reels off his list of conquests.

I'd never come across these lines in any version of either "Old Paint" type before. Does seem inconsistant with the I'm leaving now theme. No, not in any of the 4 Lomax books I do have - only the 1911 version, sometimes with the two types combined. That offers the possibility that it's later, not earlier.

Where might I find the lyrics?


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Subject: RE: In the Middle of the Ocean There Grows a Tall
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 04:15 PM

I think you're right, Abby. When I think about it, I realize that I _do_ sing "before that I prove false to her that's given her love to me."

A good demonstration of situation-specific memory - it's very different to sing something than it is to write it down!

Dan


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Subject: RE: In the Middle of the Ocean There Grows a Tall Tree
From: MissouriMud
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 05:07 PM

Abby here is a site with the Old Paint lyrics attributable to Texas fiddler Jess Morris


http://www.ranchdance.com/educational_teks_grades.shtml

I can't vouch for the authenticity of the site - it looks like a shcool class project - but there is another reference, in the site below, to Jess Morris's version (with the relevant lines) being in the Library of Congress, so maybe you can check there.

http://www.mustrad.org.uk/reviews/congress.htm

Interestingly the wording of the lines attributed to Morris differs between these two sites.

As mentioned in my earlier note Bruce Molsky uses the lines in his "Old Paint" in his cd "Bruce Molsky & Big Hoedown" - I dont have his liner notes with me just now but he ususally attributes his tunes fairly thoroughly.


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Subject: RE: In the Middle of the Ocean There Grows a Tall Tree
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 08:31 PM

The floater about the tree in the ocean, Ranch Dance website, doesn't appear in the Lomax volumes, nor in Thorp (1921).
According to Silber. "Songs of the Great American West," the version sung by Jess Morris (Library of Congress Record AAFS L2 8) had these lines, which appear in the Ranch Dance version:
'Old Paint had a colt down on the Rio Grande,
And the colt couldn't pace, and they named it Cheyenne.'

Both the above lines and 'The Tree in the Ocean' verse are included in Library of Congress # 5588, recorded by John A. Lomax ("Fife and Fife, "Cowboy and Western Songs," No. 83, Old Paint, text B). This also is the only version I know in which 'Old Paint' is "she." This is the version whose lyrics are recorded in the Ranch Dance site. I have not heard the Morris recording, but I assume it is the same.


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Subject: Lyr Add: GOODBYE OL' PAINT
From: Barry Finn
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 09:09 PM

H Abby
I had the recording but I can't fing it now. I'm guessing I'll neve find it. I do have the words & a few notes from when I first learn this. It's from the above as both Mississippi Mud & Q mention. Recorded from Jesse Morris in 1942 in Delhart, Texas by John A Lomax.

Goodbye Ol Paint

Farewell, fair ladies, I'm a-leaving Cheyenne(2x)
Goodbye my little Dony, my pony won't stand

Chorus: Old Paint, Old Paint I'm a-leaving Cheyenne
       Goodbye Old Paint, I'm a-leaving Cheyenne
       Old Paint's a good pony an she paces when she can

In the middle of the ocean there grows a green tree
But I'll never prove false to the girl that loves me

Oh, we spread down the blanket on the green grassy groung
An the horses & cattle were a-grazing all round

Oh, the last time I saw her, it was late in the fall
She wa riding Old Paint an a-leading Old Ball

Old Paint had a colt down on the Rio Grande
An the colt couldn't pace an they named it Cheyenne

For my feets in the stirrups an my briddles in my hand
Goodbye my little Dony, my pony won't stand

repeat 1st verse.
I need to relearn this it's the best, IMHO, version I ever come across. I can still hear his voice & fiddle & it's probably 25 yrs since I've played it. Probably 15yrs since I've sung it.

Sorry about the mistaking the line foe tall tree instead of how I have it as gree tree. Still why did it float into this song & only this version? It seems that these lines may travel but once a home they go rving no more, no?

Nice to hear from you Abby, any plans of coming north soon? Once every 5-10 yrs doesn't cut it. Maybe some day I'll be able to find the where all to head down south.

Barry


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Subject: RE: In the Middle of the Ocean There Grows a Tall
From: Abby Sale
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 09:21 PM

Oi! Sometimes I feel stupid. But then I excuse myself. It's not at the L of C pages that I can see. Search Whole Collection (ie of American Memory) for "Old Paint" yields 1,400 hits since it doesn't seem to have to have any "exact text" option. However, individual items do & it's not in Lomax, Cowen, all sounds or sheet music. BUT, it's on my own LP!

That is, the Lomax field collection for L of C & on their LP, "Cowboy Songs, Ballads," etc. - the record songs are not on the web site at this time.

Yep, from Jess Morris with fiddle, 1942. It's a short text but Lomax thinks it traces to the oldest American set of the song. Morris claims ownership even though he learned it from his father's horse breaker, Charley Willis - an ex-slave - who had learned it hearding cattle in 1871. Morris put it to harmonica then fiddle & made it his own.

The Mustard site is a rewiew of the Rounder record. This cut seems to be the same one. L of C licenced Rounder to issue many of the Library's "more commercial" cuts - plucking cherries from the collection & existing records. The review says Goodbye Old Paint is wrenching, impassioned, quintessentially western American music, and yet it flaunts its British origins, both in the contours of its tune and in the lines 'In the middle of the ocean may grow a green tree/But I'll never prove false to the girl that loves me,' which appear as if from nowhere in Morris's paean to his pony.

The reviewer (and I would agree it's the most reasonable interpretation) gives Barry's ocean/tree lines as just the floater verse it is, plumped into the established cowboy song. Likely the song was then honed to the two (one cowboy & one music hall) versions known today.

AND this is important in being the oldest suggested root of the "Old Paint"

OK. Back to the school text (saves me from my slow monobrachial typing) and correcting it to the text in the booklet on the L of C record: - it's not bad at all. Differences are miniscule and if the school text (as is likely) was taken from the Rounder CD (or a booklet that might be enclosed), it might be a better transcription than Lomax could get with the equipment he had at the time. (Note that even Lomax's earliest recordings on portable record cutters acquired much more info than could be reproduced at the time. Lomax was much startled when they were remastered to LP ythat a great deal more could be heard, I haven't heard anything about it but I wouldn't be surprised if more again came through remastering to CD.)

I'll listen to the LP tomorrow, more to refresh on the tune than anything else, but I'll let you know if the school version is righter.



    Farewell, fair ladies, I'm a-leaving Cheyenne,
    Farewell, fair ladies, I'm a-leaving Cheyenne,
    Good-bye, my little Dony, my pony won't stand.

    (Refrain sung after every verse:)

    Old Paint, old Paint, I'm a-leaving Cheyenne.
    Good-bye, old Paint, I'm a-leaving Cheyenne.
    Old Paint's a good pony, she paces when she can.

    In the middle of the ocean, there grows a green tree,
    But I'll never prove false to the girl that loves me.

    Oh, we spread down the blanket on the green, grassy ground,
    And the horses and cattle were a-grazing all 'round.

    Oh, the last time I saw her, it was late in the fall,
    She was riding old Paint, and a-leadin' old Ball.

    Old Paint had a colt down on the Rio Grande,
    And the colt couldn't pace and they named it Cheyenne.

    For my feet's in the stirrups, my bridle's in my hand,
    Good-bye my little dony, my pony won't stand.

    Farewell, fair ladies, I'm a-leaving Cheyenne,
    Farewell, fair ladies, I'm a-leaving Cheyenne,
    Good-bye, my little Dony, my pony won't stand.


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Subject: RE: In the Middle of the Ocean There Grows a Tall Tree
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 11:50 PM

Don't know which is 'exacter' but the text printed in Fife and Fife (given first) differs from that rendered by Abby Sale only in grammar:
Doney-Dony; a-leavin'-a-leaving; blanket-blankets; a-grazin'-a-grazing; all round-all 'round; Oh, my feet's in my stirrup[!}-For my feet's in the stirrups.
'The feet's in my stirrup' (Fife and Fife) is a nice trick.
The only other difference is repetition of the 'Farewell' verse at the end. Your re-hearing may settle which is more correct.

Digression-
Of course we only have Morris's claim as to where he heard the song and the date.
There is Thorp's version, printed 1921, ("heard from a puncher who had been on a spree in Pecos City. He had taken a job temporarily as a sheep-rustler for an outfit..."
There is the version by John Lomax, printed in 1916 (not in the 1910 first printing); "sung at the end of a cowboy ball."

And I always liked the verse sung by Powder River Jack (1938):
Montana lies north and I'm ridin' all day,
Goin' to winter in the coulees where the badlands lay.
Old Paint, a good pony, he paces when he can,
He's up and a rearin' for we're bound fer Montan.'
Of course no one pays attention to his verses because he lied some-
like Lomax(?).
And the Ozark version found by Lucile Nelson (1929) reprinted in Randolph-
It's raining and it's hailing, the moon gives no light,
My horses can't travel this dark road tonight.
Go put up your horses and feed them on hay.
Come in and sit beside me, and talk while you stay.
My horses ain't hungry, they won't eat your hay,
I travel through Texas and feed on the way.
.......


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Subject: RE: In the Middle of the Ocean There Grows a Tall Tree
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 10:24 AM

I've always been fond of the arrangement that Carl Sandburg presented in THE AMERICAN SONGBAG, pub. by Harcourt, Brace & Co., © 1927, pp. 12-13:

I ride an old Paint, I lead an old Dan,
I'm goin' to Montan' for to throw the hoolian*,
They feed in the coulees, they water in the draw,
Their tails are all matted, their back are all raw.

Chorus:

Ride around, little dogies,
Ride around them slow,
For the fiery and snuffy are a-rarin' to go.**

Old Bill Jones had two daughters and a song,
One went to Denver and the other went wrong,
His wife she died in a poolroom fight,
Still he sings from mornin' till night. (CHO)

Oh, when I die, take my saddle from the wall,
Put it on my pony, lead him out of his stall,
Tie my bones to his back, turn our faces to the West,
And we'll ride the prairie that we love the best. (CHO)

* & ** not a clue what these words mean but I always loved their sound.

In his notes Sandburg says this song came "from a buckaroo who was last heard of as heading for the Border with friends in both Tucson and El Paso."

Not even a spinter of a tree in this version, nor a drop of ocean!

Cheerily,
Chaley Noble


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Subject: RE: In the Middle of the Ocean There Grows a Tall
From: Abby Sale
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 12:23 PM

Sorry, Barry. Took me so long to post I didn't see yours. Yes, well, with any luck we'll move up to Raleigh (North Carolina) soon enough that the distance to Mystic ain't as far.

Several notes to All. Remember that the TWO songs (Goodbye-type and I Ride-type) are ONE of the best known cowboy songs at all both within and without cowboydom.

Re the Morris version:

Lomax doesn't outright claim it's the oldest, he knows he collected (or was sent) a version in 1911. He just says this claim that Morris' teacher learned it in 1871 (assumedly dating it back some period before that) Pushes the possible origin back further than any other claim. Morris claimed he "owned" the song because of where he got it in 1885 (he claims) and that he added the fiddle arrangement. Lomax says .... well, ok...why not? And lets it go.

Listening this morning, I agree with Lomax's transcription as I posted. I made one error (that I see right off):

    Farewell, fair ladies, I'm a-leaving Cheyenne,
    Farewell, fair ladies, I'm leaving Cheyenne,

is consistantly what Lomax wrote and Morris sang. Whether it's leavin' or leaving is irrelevant.

Barry, this record is still available from L of C. It's a fine record worth regetting. I don't think it's available as LP any more but may be. Certainly on tape and maybe one that's been moved to CD.

The Library of Congress
Motion Picture, Broadcasting
And Recorded Sound Division
Washington, DC 20540-4800
RECORDING SALES: (202) 707-2691

This is the _only_ address you can get ordering info from. The Librarian of Congress's office doesn't know anything about all this and doesn't want to. They will, however, be very polite while they refer you to the wrong place. The Music Division can sometimes find them, but usually they can't.

See http://lcweb.loc.gov/folklife/folkcat.html
Ah! Cowboy is one of the Rounder CDs. Go to them or http://www.loc.gov/folklife/rounder.html

Speaking of good L of C stuff, in looking through my own stuff I listened to the 30-year-old West Texas singer, Sam Hinton. That was recorded for them in 1947. Recently released by Bear family records. Available at Camsco or Amazon.com. Call Camsco & get it. dick@camsco.com or (800) 548-FOLK (3655)

Remember, the I Ride type comes from music hall, not cowboys.

Right. That "she" bothered me but I didn't twig why. Yes, usually "he paces when he can." Morris does give "my feet's in my stirrups." One each so that's ok. Of course there's no other transcription of ex-slave Charley's singing. I suppose Negro dialect could apply. I don't know how far this configuration goes. Some is valid but some is certainly slanderous from minstrel shows & Ethiopian song books.

Charlie, yep. That's the one I sing, too. As a matter of fact, it was the first song I ever heard in a coffee house sung by a "folksinger" with a guitar. People sang along! I was stunned by this approach to music. Permanently changed. Tula's in Cambridge, 1955. Like yesterday. Of course I'd sing Goodbye as well but the tune still eludes me. I'll try again.

"Hoolihan?" Bet a search here would turn up a lot. I'll post a little of what I have, though.

My Cowboy Glossary (the usual source these days) gives it as a form of bulldogging. But that wasn't so well known in 1994. From a note I sent a certain Mr Greenhaus in 1994:

I noted the word, oddly, is never Mondegreened, even though no one knows what it means; I'd give 20 to 30 points to anyone that had the effrontery to lie well enough to even claim they knew what it meant. Then:

According to the Texan, John A. Lomax who recorded this version in 1942 from an elderly actually trail-riding cowboy (you know that cowboying and cattle drives ended when the railroads finally extended far enough that the dangerous & expensive drives were no longer needed - about say, 1890. Later songs are just reminiscent or "drug store") ..

"Hoolihan" is a form of bulldogging where the snout of the calf or steer is seized and pressed, forcing the animal's head to the ground and thus throwing it, rather than twisting its head in the common practice of rodeos today.

Mr Greenhaus replied:
I'll take the points. About a year ago I was at a party that included a college-professor-universal-expert who insisted on pontificating about the supposed meanings of the usual obscure words in folksongs. As far as I could tell, he was right about 30% of the time. Finally, he got into throwing the houlihan, and I had enough.

"The houlihan," I explained to him, was a figure from ancient Celtic myth; a bull with magical powers that Cuchulain had fought. And, of course, the phrase persisted, with the real meaning of throwing the Irish bull. Talk about fakelore...but it shut him up.


And so should I.

(Sorry for telling your story, Dick, but I doubt anyone's still reading.)

Last, and significantly: Allowing this definition, (not Mr Greenhaus') The "hoolihan" dates the song. Bulldoging of any sort became a rodeo event only after 1900.


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Subject: RE: In the Middle of the Ocean There Grows a Tall Tree
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 12:43 PM

Abby-

I always assumed "throw the Hoolihan" meant going on a spree but I never had anything other than instinct to back up that interpretation. But maybe it really means "throwing the bull."

But how about "the fiery and snuffy are a-rarin' to go"?

Charley


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Subject: RE: In the Middle of the Ocean There Grows a Tall Tree
From: Snuffy
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 01:52 PM

Houlihan etc are discussed here: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint and here: I ride an old paint

Lots of different explanations though - you pays your money and you takes your choice!


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Subject: RE: In the Middle of the Ocean There Grows a Tall
From: Abby Sale
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 02:40 PM

Snuffy: Right. The other most popular definition has to do with the method the rope is held when roping.

Charlie: Me too & for the same reason but something to do with catching cattle is pretty widely accepted. I take fiery and snuffy as names of cattle ponies. Fiery and Snuffy. Don't recall ever seeing it discussed.


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Subject: RE: In the Middle of the Ocean There Grows a Tall Tree
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 05:05 PM

Hoolihan is gone over in detail in thread 14070, with definitions from knowledgeable people like Ramon Adams ("Western Words") and J. E. Lighter ("Historical Dictionary of American Slang") as well as those who are just guessing. houlihan Old Paint

One problem is whether hooleyann, the roping term, hoolihaning, bulldogging term (practice barred at rodeos now), defined in 1933 by Allen in "Cowboy Lore", or hoolihan (to have a good time) is meant. The words are easily confused and in part seem to be interchangable.
The three terms seem to be fairly recent (after 1900) coinage.
The word hoolihan (houlihan) shows up in the song in Sandburg (1927), Larkin (1931), Lomax and Lomax 1934. It may have surfaced in one of the recordings made in the 1920's, but I don't have them.
It does not appear in "Cowboy Songs," John Lomax, 1910 or 2nd ed. of 1916; not until the 1934 "American Ballads and Folk Songs" by Lomax and Lomax does it appear in their volumes. He (John) said he got the song from Boothe Merrill in 1910 at Cheyenne's 'Frontier Days', but I doubt that it contained the verse with 'throw the hoolihan.' (I remember the word in New Mexico in the late 1930's; to have a party).

Larkin (from Lynn Riggs), Sandburg and Woody Guthrie made the 'fiery and snuffy' verse popular; its first appearance is in Sandburg, 1927, "An American Songbag." It also has been gone over in the thread cited above; see posts by Lighter and Richardw in thread linked above. I'll take Richardw's word for the meaning. However, other westerners say 'fiery' is another name for paint, and snuffy means a snuff, or buff-colored horse. Others say it means lightning and thunder, or horses that snort and spook, tending to buck and go.
Charley, take your pick.

The version "I Ride an Old Paint" is not a 'music hall' song; it never appeared in a musical. Lynn Riggs, who gave it to Margaret Larkin, was from a cattle ranching family. Whether Riggs wrote it or got it from "a buckaroo," however, can be questioned (see comments by Lighter, thread 14070); it may not a valid song of the range, but it is just as popular among cowboy singers as "Old Paint" sensu stricto.


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Mudcat time: 18 February 1:53 AM EST

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