Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs

Subject: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: GUEST,Fiddlestix
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 06:09 AM

My club has gradually been taken over by non-musicians. I'm talking about people who don't play or sing, but get involved in the running and decision making. This has been allowed to happen over the last few years, mainly because the regular performers are a bunch of softies who allow people, with no intrest in music to poke their noses in. I don't know what the agenda is - probably just busybodies.

Has anybody else experienced this? If so what are your thoughts, is it good or bad or does it really matter?

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 06:40 AM

If they're good promoters, maybe they can bring a helpful perspective to things that will benefit everyone. Or are they "scholars" of the music? (It would help to know what sorts of things you are experiencing with them.)

If they are, as you say, "people with no interest in music," then what IS their interest-- why are they involved, and how does that interest affect their leadership?

Just to clarify, are you talking about a UK-type club, which is different from what we mostly have on the US side of the pond?

~S~

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: Tradsinger
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 06:44 AM

This sounds to me like a personality clash rather than a singers/musicians versus non-singers/non-musicians thing. The Cheltenham folk club has been run successfully for years by a bloke who can't sing or play a note but loves the music.

We actually need more people to poke their noses into folk music, not fewer, and if those people are willing to organise, then so much the better. It's easy for club to get clichey and perhaps this is what has happened in your case.

In your particular instance, I only see one solution, which is to get round a table and have a sensible discussion with musicians and organisers, with a firm chairman to make sure that things don't get silly, and talk through what everyone wants. You may end up with a stronger club as a result rather than resent their 'interference'. Do they really have no interest in the music? If so, why are they wanting to run things?

Sit down and talk.

Gwilym

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 08:03 AM

People move from the town into country areas, where they stand for the local and parish council, whereas the locals are apathetic about their local services. When these incomers start running things, than you should hear the locals complain.
It sounds to me that if it weren't for these non musical people running your club, you wouldn't have a club at all!
If you want something doing, do it yourself, that's what my Mother always used to say!!
Giok

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: Ned Ludd
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 08:22 AM

One of the longest running clubs in our town was run by non performers. It only caused problems on 'dead' nights and there was many a time when I turned up to find myself the only performer!
There was a period When clubs made profit and people took them over to skim it off. Are there still such places?

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: Abby Sale
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 09:27 AM

Ned opens the obvious solution. These non-workers seem to be simply taking over to reap the benefits obtained from the labor of those who actually to the essential work, the musicians. The new Management class gains power, prestige, financial control and ultimately content and quality control. It's easy to imagine them reorganizing the room to, for example, improve the view or comfort or available space of non-workers at the expense of the workers. And then censoring the content of the songs.

I can easily see the day you will be forced to leave your guitar cases and spare strings in the car to make more space for "audience." You will rapidly become slave labor with no purpose but to entertain the bosses.

Streike now while you have the chance - well before these changes may become established and immovable. Strike now before you find other entertainments are brought in and your successful song-sharing environment becomes a businesspersons' club serving coctails and providing stock exchange updates. Strike now and wrest back control of your own labor and lives!

Just have the performers collectively agree to meet in someone's home for a session or two and see what happens. Demand a contract that ensures no changes whatever be made to the organization without concensus of the musicians. (This can be done by e-mail or phone - do not be coerced into addending their meetings.)

Ensure that these would-be usurpers keep their place as "executives" in such jobs as janitorial, chair setting-up, door-keeping, passing out handbills, etc. Personally, I'd also require them to join in on chorus' at least twice per session and maintain a log of such joining and that log be available for inspection by any musician at any time.

That should do it!

Abby Sale
(Singer/Director, Central Florida Folk, Inc.)

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: Troll
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 09:46 AM

Just because musicians are in charge does not automatically mean that they have the best interests of the group at heart. Self-agrandizment knows no class limits or boundaries. Over the years I have seen groups run by musicians who were as totalitarian as any banana republic generalissimo.

I think that it all depends on the motives of those who are taking charge. Blanket condemnations are never a good thing.

troll

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: woodsie
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 10:28 AM

Our club's committee is a mixture of performers & non-performers, so everybody's intrests are represented. Works pretty good for us!

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: Arnie
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 11:45 AM

Our club doesn't even have a committee but has been running for 20 yrs. Not sure how it works but it does. The MC decides on the guest list and books them, as well as being the treasurer. I do the publicity but have no say in the bookings. No-one else can be bothered to get involved in the running of the club, they just like turning up and either listening, singing or playing. There is no democracy in a system like this, but it obviously works as we are still going strong!!

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: Tradsinger
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 12:11 PM

I guess that things work differently on either side of the 'pond'. In the UK, no-one in their right minds runs a folk event to make money and so the motive is usually that they like the music. I can't imagine a folk club or session organiser in the UK who didn't have any interest in the music.

In the US it might be different. I can imagine some venues being run by people with no particular interest, but this would be very much the exception.

Fiddlestix - can you give us a bit more context to your situation,like where you are from?

Gwilym

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: GUEST,Steve G
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 12:28 PM

If you can get ANYONE interested in actually running the club you should think yourself lucky.

Personally, I think a non musician as chairman or organiser is far the beat option.

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 01:03 PM

I have been running Market Rasen Folk Club for two years now from scratch and on my own, with no committee. I make the bookings, decisions etc and do not take any money out of the club whatsoever except for direct costs such as raffle prizes, hire of room, money to performers etc.

The club is succesful and has 5 performers each time it is on (Alternate Fridays). I am starting to get 60 plus audiences. Have a look at the website to see how many performers come through the club.

I cannot sing or play and cannot read music etc. However, I love all sorts of music and started the club to keep folk alive.

I also got a CD of Lincolnshire Folk Performers out which was a limited edition and it made well over a £1000 which went to charity.

Comments from people like Abbey Sale I find offensive and so way off the mark.

You don't have to be a musician to run a folk club, you have to have the desire to keep the tradition of Folk alive. Not all of us are money grabbing bastards.

Les Worrall

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 01:06 PM

Hm, maybe the opening post is from someone who was looking for a Villain and may find, instead, a Villan.

Blaming instead of working together so seldom makes anything better. ;~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: GUEST,Thosewhoknowwillknow
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 01:09 PM

The music side of the Liverpool Irish Festival has been run by musicians for the last 3 years. Count yourself lucky, fiddlestix.

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: Ritchie
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 01:58 PM

When is a 'club' a 'club'?

club - association of people with common interests - building used by such a group - thick stick used as a weapon - bat or stick used in some games - playing card of the suit marked with black three- leafed symbols.

It seems to me that we've had replies from each of the definitions on this thread.

An anology comes to mind, which is, can you imagine if we said that you had to have children before you could be a teacher.

I would n't want to be in any club that would let me be a member.

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 02:01 PM

When I produced events that I also participated in, there was never time to rehearse, and people tended to come up on stage with questions while I was performing--and there were always those who were resentful because they thought that I should have booked their band instead of my own.

Thank God for those few who love the music, but do not play, and choose to do all the unrewarding stuff just to be close to the music. The reason that there aren't more folk venues is that there aren't many like that.

I am thinking that Abby Sales' Psuedo-Marxian rant is a parody of the discussions that I sat through too many times in the 60's and early 70's before the war ended and disco brought fun back into music again--

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 02:27 PM

Now that I have said my piece, I wiil comment further.

I see my club as a team effort.
I get all the acts sorted out and do the publicity etc etc.
The performers do their part of the team effort by getting up on the stage and doing their bit.
I control how much time they have, but they control what they do within their time frame.
The audience do their part by turning up and supporting the performers and paying their hard earned money.
I have some smashing regular (residential) performers, who give their all. What more can I ask of them.

I forgot to mention, that the club is in a very rural area.

Fiddlestix - you should be very happy to have people wanting to help with your club. The time to moan, is when you don't have anybody.
What do these people do to upset you. Are you sure they don't like music? You don't have to be a musician to be an organiser. Do they interfere with what you play? Obviously something has happened to sour relations.

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: Ritchie
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 02:55 PM

M.Ted and the Villan & any one else who organises anything, well done. Good or bad, we need it. You are usually in a no win situation, you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Playing the devils advocado (or in my case the ace of clubs) I often feel like I'm one of the judges on the x factor when I watch some acts performing, but hey, thats what it's all about, I would never have the heart to 'tell them like it is'.

There is only 2 types of music, music I like and music I don't ...same about people really.

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 03:28 PM

Hmmm

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: Dita
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 03:58 PM

Both Glasgow and Stirling F.C.s have run with success for some time, with non-performing chairs, treasurers and bookers and MCs and chair puter outers. There are performers on both committees, but not holding office. This is by chance and not design, I hadn't thought about it 'till this thead. They don't play the or sing (except at informal singers nights or parties), but love the music and do a great job. The sound man (sometimes at both clubs) is a musician.

Villan, I took Abby Sale's post as an ironc reply to Nedd Ludds last line in his post. Have another read and see what you think.

John.

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 04:06 PM

As the Villan and some others know, in Juneau Alaska we started a monthly fold club (to use the term loosely) 6 months ago. Only four of us are involved in the running and planning of it but we have friends who jump in and staff the goodies and coffee counter, bring the stage out and put things back.

Amongst the four of us, since we already get together once or twice a week to make music, we on occasion spend a half hour deciding upon policy and go with the concensus. So far it has worked very well.

One person does the venue booking, places publicity on radio and in newspapers, and puts up posters. She also buys the supplies and oversees what happens at the site itself. She is the problem solver.

Another person - me- does the booking: chooses, pursues and persuades prospects (I tell them there are only two givens: each set is 20 minutes, give or take a few, and it's all acoustic); creates posters and blurbs, acts as the money taker on folk night. It is my phone number that's listed for questions. I'm also the one who records the evening's activities and then creats a CD for each set as a memento.

Another of us is the only one with experience on the other side- he tours and has done many house concerts, so he's primarily in an advisory capacity. He is also the MC.

The last person plugs in the gaps.

We have a good arrangement, I think. None of us works too hard, and we're going strong. Last night we had our first Mid-Month twin-bill - instead of five sets we had only two for a two-hour concert. We had 87 paid in attendance. It is also the first time that we didn't charge admittance for the performers or for the founders; otherwise we would have had another 11 paid. We're making enough money.

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 04:15 PM

The most important factor is whether the person in charge of the club is doing it because they like music or if they like power and money more, not whether they are a musician or not. Ability to manage and organze are important tools.    If the person running the club has no affinity for music you could be in trouble.   Look at commercial radio and the commercial recording companies in the U.S. In my opinion, the best music is found on independent labels, independent radio, films, and the internet where people who appreciate music are still calling the shots.

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 04:16 PM

Dita
Didn't see any smiles or things suggesting such, but you may be right. In which case I offer my apologies.

Nice to see its still going well Ebbie :-)

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 06:04 PM

OK - a 'non-musician' is easy to work out, but what is a 'musician'.

'Folk-musos' think that 'Classic-os' are not, vice versa, etc.

Any discussion where the basic terms are so vaguely semantically overloaded with different possible meanings usually ends up just being a lot of hot air.

When I was involved with 'Amateur' Theatre, I first was drawn there cause (in some 'clubs') I was the only one with any real 'technical' experience: the one who knew how to plug in lights without blowing fuses (could do the sums for power rating), etc. I also had studied photography, and thus knew a little about what 'lighting' was: i.e. how to make people be 'seen'. I also had been interested since a kid in 'radio and electronics' and thus knew about connecting up loud speakers, recording FOH music, etc.

I had quite a few battles with 'artistic types' who didn't have a clue about any of this, but believed they knew 'all about lighting and sound' - the results of them winning their way were often catastrophic, sometimes even hilarious. I eventually tired of this 'hobby' and came back to music, where I had to rely on my own ability, and really needed to bother hanging around others who also displayed some ability of their own, and not just hot air.

As someone who had never had any real extent of experience in the full field of 'Theatre', i.e. in the areas of FOH, publicity, etc as well as the actual 'arty stuff' - never had really caught on to Shakeything, etc. I was surprised after some time of hanging around the ideas at just how easily I picked up the concepts. I even went on to do some Uni study in theatre, etc.

Just because an individual has never spent the time training the physical and mental skills necessary to become an instrumentalist, doesn't mean that they can't have a real love for 'folk-music' - and that's one definition I'll walk away from at the moment - we have had those struggles before...

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: John Hernandez
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 07:36 AM

Experiences here in North America are different than those in the U.K. The term "club" on this side of the Atlantic has two distinct meanings. The first meaning is a society, such as the Folklore Society of Greater Washington or the Philadelphia Folk Song Society. These are large organizations that sponsor many kinds of events, from intimate house concerts to multiday festivals. They are typically governed by a board of directors elected by the dues paying members, and they depend upon scores of volunteers who see to it that events happen. Some of the directors and volunteers are musicians, but many are not. What they all have in common is enough love for the music that they are willing to give their time (and often money) to see that the society functions.

The other meaning of "club" is a specific venue. This could be a non-for-profit coffee house run out of a church, or it could be a commercial enterprise such as the nightclub Satallia in New York, or it could be something in-between, such as a local pub which has live music on weekends. Clubs in this sense of the word very often run by non-musicians, because it usually doesn't matter if the people running them are musicians or not.

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: Crane Driver
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 07:52 AM

This looks like a typical troll thread to me.

(No offence to Troll above, who isn't one)

An unknown "Guest" poster makes an inflammatory initial statement and waits for people to start arguing.

The initial poster doesn't come back to clarify the first post, argue or accept any of the points made, or show any further interest in the discussion. It's just a set-up to wind up the regulars.

Don't feed the trolls.

Andrew

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: Crane Driver
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 07:53 AM

On the other hand, it's actually quite a good discussion in this case.

Oh well . . .

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: John P
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 08:11 AM

Interesting discussion. To get back to what Fiddlestix was originally complaining about:

the regular performers are a bunch of softies who allow people, with no intrest in music to poke their noses in.

Sorry, Fiddlestix, I don't believe you. I can't imagine a situation where someone who didn't care about folk music would go through the work and occasional aggravation of helping to run a folk club. They may have nefarious reasons like self-aggrandizement or a desire to boss others around, but if they didn't care about music they'd probably be playing their games elsewhere. You also said:

I don't know what the agenda is

Obviously. And you obviously haven't given it much thought, either. Most people are trying to do the best job they can at whatever they take on, especially if they are volunteering to help make a folk club happen. I'm guessing, since you bothered to post about it here, that someone said something you didn't like, or made a decision you disagree with. Without any context about how your club is organised, or any specifics about what made you upset, there's no way to have a real discussion about your issue.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: Abby Sale
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 09:50 AM

John, yes, that's what I noticed as well, of course. Curious, ain't it?

In (cultural) anthropology, we learned that it matters little what form of organization a primative society takes. Generally the members know all of each other and eliminate bad or self-centered rulers. Some are "communist" or "capitalist" or 100 other ists but te lesson is that if it works, it works. I'm very pleased to learn here that folk clubs may also be successful regardless of the system employed. I tend to feel (without proof) that folk-interested non-musicians gravitate towards running things. Gives them a sense of purpose "a justification" or maybe payback for their attendence. That's fine. Others may be there just for a club in the club sense. A congenial place to go and comingle with people & have a night out. They might become suspicious if left totally unattended - truly wish to turn the club towards an interest they do have. Politics. Religion. It happens - rare but it happens.

people, with no intrest in music

They occur & you have to wonder what they're doing there. But who knows?

Hearabouts we're blessed with many, many clubs running a very large gamut of types. Some are only vaguely "folk" or just open mike-perform-whatever-you-like. Or bluegrass circles or dulcimer circles (they let me sing, though.) But some are more folk than others. There are several monthly clubs located in churches. At least four.

Here's the thing - sometimes the church ones are truly bent. They are not there for the benefit of music - it's just another method to evangelize - to suck people in in order to convert them. A true secret agenda. Cultism. Others are open and simply providing a public service. And a beer. One such church venue I attend regularly [along with Blackcatter] and enjoy thoroughly.

Enjoy yourself but keep an eye out, in other words.

Or, as the Arabs say, "Trust in God.....but tie up your camel."

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 10:57 AM

There are a lot of musicians who love to play/sing but couldn't give a rat's arse about getting involved in organisation.

There are a lot of non-musicians who enjoy taking on the responsibilities of organisation.

There are a lot of musicians who enjoy playing/singing and like to be involved in organisation.

Isn't variety the spice of life?

I dispute the description of one-man operations as a 'club'. The essential ingredient of a club (at least here in the UK) is that it's not run by one person, but is properly founded with a Constitution, a Chairman, a secretary, a committee and members. A one-man operation is merely a venue. Both formats can, and do, run very happily and successfuly, Gainsborough and Market Rasen being prime examples of each kind.

If Fiddlestix's 'club' is truly a club as described above, it's a very simple matter to remove the offending individuals by using the democratic tool of voting them out of office at the AGM. If it's a one-man-band, tough shit - you're either stuck with it or (Gosh! Here's a radical idea!) you go away and start your own.

S:0)

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: Maryrrf
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 11:11 AM

It doesn't really matter whether or not the people who run the club or concert series are musicians - what matters is their organizational skills, people skills, and their committment to what they are doing. It's hard to imagine that anybody would decide to run (or help run) a folk club or folk concert series if they didn't have a strong interest in folk music, however. There's a lot of work involved and most of it isn't glamorous or particularly exciting - not to mention it's time consuming and often thankless. As for glory or self agrandizement - well running a folk club is hardly perceived by the public at large as a great "feather in one's cap"! Likewise, if someone were looking for a money making venture, a folk club or concert series would not be the way to go about it. Most of these little organizations are barely solvent and there would be precious little left over for "skimming" if that were someone's intent.

Speaking from the American side of the pond, I think the British type of "folk club" is rare here. What you would find would be small coffeehouses or house concert series. I help run a small coffeehouse concert series in Richmond, VA (we have seating for 45). We convinced the owner of a small coffee shop to let us use his premises and he stays open during the concert evenings (usually he closes at 4:00 pm) so he can sell coffee and refreshments (there's no alcohol allowed). I am a musician but the two co-organizers are not. Like me, however, they love traditional folk music and were frustrated that there was so little available in the area. We manage our expenses very prudently and so far have been able to cover all our costs and have a little bit set aside in the "kitty" to cover unexpected contingencies or to pay the performer in case we had an off night. There is another folk concert series in town that has been running for four or five years. They use a church auditorium. There is no evangelization but he is expected to turn over all his profits (after he has paid the performer) to the church meaning he has nothing to cover incidentals and he has had to heavily subsidize the venture out of his own pocket. He is a musician - the advantage being that if he can't find a good opening act he can just do it himself. Musician or non-musician, I don't think it makes any difference. I can't see why a non-musician would want to run a folk club unless the music aspect was important to them.   It may be that it is their way of contributing, even though they cannot participate musically.

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: Suffet
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 02:50 PM

Greetings:

My experiences are in New York City with the Peoples' Voice Cafe, which isn't exactly a folk club -- it presents many kinds of music that wouldn't not ordinarily be considered folk -- but it is organized like one, and it puts on a show nearly every Saturday evening from September through May. Some are "big names" such as Pete Seeger, Eric Andersen, Pat Humphries, and Kim and Reggie Harris, but most are not as well known.

The Peoples' Voice Cafe is run entirely by a collective of volunteers who are organized into committees, each committee with a specific function: booking, sound reinforcement, publicity, finance, food, etc. New volunteers are always welcome, and no one cares if you are a musician or not. We do, however, presume that you are interested in the music that the Peoples' Voice Cafe puts on. Otherwise why bother?

That having been said, the Peoples' Voice Cafe is now in its 27th year, and since the very beginning quite a few of its volunteers, perhaps a majority, have in fact been musicians! Maybe that's who is attracted to the work. In any case, we do not fear being overrun by non-musicians.

Oh, there is one important benefit for musicians who are Peoples' Voice Cafe volunteers. They can perform there once every season. Otherwise, a performer can usually appear only every other season.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: GUEST,J.C.
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 03:06 PM

Most of the clubs I have been involved with have been run on a communal basis with performers and non performers taking an equal share of the work and we have always been grateful for the help given by those who have no vested interest in the proceedings.
However, I have encountered the 'me performer, you dogsbody' attitude on more than one occasion; it is more than a little 'hacked off' making when you are trying to clear up a clubroom and having to work around prima donas who don't raise a finger to help (and, on occasion whinge about non- performers getting in the way).
A salutory lesson for me was in the Birmingham club that had a marvellously efficient 'non-performer' who ran the club like a well tuned engine, until one day she was found to be a wonderful storyteller; you should have seen the 'artists' running round like headless chickins trying to replace her.
Best,
JC

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 03:42 PM

I think a pattern often seen is that there is an organisation of some kind, and then someone (either on "the committee" or not) gets a bee in their bonnet about something (for example that it is a "bad idea" to be called a "folk club", or that amplfied instruments (eg keyboards) ought/ought not to be allowed, etc etc, and then hostility breaks out.

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 05:12 PM

I agree with Strolling Johnny.You could attempt to remove those people you don't like by democratic means. Failing that, I believe the mafia do 'hits' at very reasonable rates.

Have you seen Treasure Island, you could tip him the black spot.....

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: Bert
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 05:21 PM

Hey this is Bert's daughter- Rachael. I am not musically inclined at all, but believe me I have been to a million gigs. The reason non-musical me has gotten involved is because people like me.... There I said it- I'm prettier and more charismatic than quite a few musicians, so when they want a gig they send me. It has worked well in the past. Just ask anybody. I'm not a busybody, just a nice daughter who does what her dad asks...

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: woodsie
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 04:09 PM

With reference to some of the postings that followed mine.

The reason our club was run as "a club" with committee etc. Was that it was a legal requirement, as the premises did not have a music licence! (Greenwich council demanded it)

That has now changed. However we are doing so well, we will carry on with our committee of musicians/non-musicians/whoever wants to be involved! See Folkmob

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 04:52 PM

I suppose we should credit the "troll" who started this thread. Thanks for provoking a good discussion!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: shepherdlass
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 03:23 PM

If we look at this from another angle, can you imagine someone saying that a woman shouldn't run a men's clothing firm, or that only drinkers should work in a brewery?

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 04:00 PM

I have no problems with a woman running a mens clothing firm, especially if she does the measuring :-)

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 04:33 PM

I read this with interest. It seems to me that there are different forms of "musical talent". Some folks know how to run a business, have an affintiy for music and a genuine appreciation for it They might not be the best performers, pickers, singers but their talent can keep musicians working. I'm thinking of the great producers, entrepeneurs, folklorists, organizers etc.

Why do we all have to be painted with one brush stroke? Takes all kinds.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: stallion
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 06:04 PM

I am not certain but I think Roland Walls has been running the York folk club at the black swann for nearly 20 years ( well a long time) without him I would doubt if it would have kept going, I have never seen him perform, I don't think he does, but his contribution to the York folk scene has been immense

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 02:31 AM

This threads seemd fairly appropriate for this:


The Anti-Serenity Prayer

God grant me the anxiety
to try to control the things I cannot control,
the fear to avoid the things I can,
and the neurosis to deny the difference.

by Dr. "B"

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: Hrothgar
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 10:35 PM

If they are good at running a folk club, there is no major problem I can see.

If they are no good at running a folk club, believe me, the problem will cease to exist.

Musical background is only a side issue.

Note that "good at running a folk club" does not necessarily mean running it to suit particular interests or individuals.

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 11:08 PM

Let it be...

LET IT BE

let it be....

Whisper words of wisdom - LET IT BE

Sincerely,

Gargoyle

we are thee as they are we come together.

Subject: RE: Non Musicians Taking Over Clubs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 07:03 AM

Hrothgar

you are so right!

Many 'managers' are promoted from 'salesmen' - they make good salesmen but hopeless managers, although 'management' have tended to believe that is the only way to do it (some DO perform well in the different role BTW!). It is possible to be a good 'manager' with ever having been a 'salesman', but you do need to at least understand your product, even you you couldn't sell it.

'The Office' British version - satirised this brilliantly.