Tech: Headstock / Tuning Head repairs

Subject: Tech: Headstock / Tuning Head repairs
From: HuwG
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 10:18 AM

I wonder if any professional or amateur luthiers in the community can help me with this one.

I have a Yamaha F-180 acoustic guitar, which I bought second-hand. It has a few dings and dents, which do not detract from its tone. However, the number 3 and 4 tuning heads have always had a little play in them, which occasionally causes it to go out of tune.

Yesterday, when I changed the strings, one of the two screws holding the number 3 (G string) head in place dropped out; it had pulled out of the wood of the headstock. Examination showed that the other three screws on the G and D string heads were in similar state. I have pushed them back in, but they are there for show only; they cannot be tightened up. The heads are held in place by string tension only, and accurate tuning is very difficult.

Has anyone ever encountered or fixed similar problems ?

(The other four heads are OK. Larger diameter screws cannot be forced through the actual tuning machines. Has anyone heard of miniature rawlplugs or anchors being used in similar cases ?)

Thanks in advance.

Subject: RE: Tech: Headstock / Tuning Head repairs
From: Leadfingers
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 10:45 AM

First thing I would try would be one of the 'Plastic Wood' - Take the Machine head off , fill the screw holes , leave to set and then refit
the heads !
    Now someone who knows what they are doing can tell you what you REALLY ought to do !

Subject: RE: Tech: Headstock / Tuning Head repairs
From: s&r
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 10:53 AM

Cocktail stick dipped in pva glue. Push in, break off and screw the screw in.

Stu

Subject: RE: Tech: Headstock / Tuning Head repairs
From: Grab
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 11:04 AM

From what you're saying, I suspect your tuners might be on their way out, so buy new tuners. Replacement tuners are actually pretty cheap (especially if you're not dead set on ones that look the same), and are usually better quality than the ones the guitar comes with (unless you buy a higher-end guitar that comes with decent Gotohs or something equivalent).

I redid my old Crafter a couple of years ago when one of the cheap crappy tuners that it came with finally died, and the difference in ease of tuning is amazing. Changing tuners is simple enough. Just remove strings, unbolt the old ones, bolt the new ones on, and screw the new ones into the headstock.

If some of the screws on the old ones weren't holding, and the new ones will use the same screw holes, fill the screw holes before you fit the new tuners. Standard wood filler is fine here - no-one will see it. Headstocks are usually mahogany or some similar hardwood, so always drill pilot holes for the screws if you're not using the same screw holes.

Re-reading again, *are* your tuners actually shot, or is it just the fixing onto the headstock? If it's just the screw fixing, then remove them all, fill the screw holes and refit them. Job done.

As for the tuners being loose, what stops the tuners rocking back and forth in their holes is the nut on the top of the tuner. Make sure all of them are tight. The screw is only to stop the tuner spinning round - it's not supposed to resist any sideways pull from the strings.

If the nuts on the top of the tuners has been loose for a long time, the tuners may actually have worn away the sides of the hole that they sit in. Once that's happened, you're *never* going to be able to tune reliably, and the guitar may have some nasty rattles. If you're lucky, you (or a luthier) may be able to pack out the tuners with something to keep them in place. But the only real solution to that is for a luthier (or you) to drill out the tuner holes oversize (drill press required), plug them with some good wood and then redrill them to the required hole size.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Tech: Headstock / Tuning Head repairs
From: Beer
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 11:33 AM

Huwg.
According to Grab the tuning forks are cheap. Well I live in Quebec Canada and my Yamaha 180 (1963)is presently in shop awaiting the arrival from Toronto for replacement forks because they have worn out and need replacement. The Cost is $65.00
I told the repair man that I thought this was a little expensive, but when he showed me the book I am very happy because vintage parts (tuning forks)are very expensive. Like $160.00 and up.
Good lluck.
Great guitar by the way.
Beer

Subject: RE: Tech: Headstock / Tuning Head repairs
From: mooman
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 12:17 PM

As Grab said, check the state of the machines.

I do exactly the same as s&r suggested, cutting the ends off with a razor blade for neatness rather than breaking it off.

Peace

moo
(trained and ex-full time guitar repairman, still freelancing in that field)

Subject: RE: Tech: Headstock / Tuning Head repairs
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 03:59 PM

A tuning fork (a metal shape tooled to correct dimensions to generate a precise note for tuning to) is not usually attached to a guitar; perhaps you mean the tuning heads (the gear and key mechanisms for tightening strings)?

A

Subject: RE: Tech: Headstock / Tuning Head repairs
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 04:45 PM

I'm surprised to hear that the tuners on anyone's 30+ year-old Yamaha are still even in servicable condition. Yammies from that era were a great value, but the original equipment tuning machines were crap. After replacing three stripped out machines on the FG-160 I had in the mid-70s with whatever was available from friends' junk drawers, I finally broke down and replaced them all with a good set of Grover Rotomatics.

Subject: RE: Tech: Headstock / Tuning Head repairs
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 11:45 PM

Some tuners do not have retaining nuts as described by Graham but have instead , metal bushings that are pressed into the headstock. I do not know what the F-180 has but my only Yammy, a 1980's FG-512 uses this type. In these the little screws do hold the tuning machine in place and the bushing holds the shaft true. I also have an old Framus in which the bushings had fallen out and were lost. The shafts then wore the wood away so that they were no longer true. My solution was to drill out the holes to a slightly larger size and then insert a brass bushing with an inside diameter to fit the shaft.It worked like a charm.
                      Sandy
P.S. I would fill stripped screw holes with wood and glue over a wood filler. A round toothpick works great.

Subject: RE: Tech: Headstock / Tuning Head repairs
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 12:48 AM

BWL, why are you surprised that 30 year old tuners still work ? the original tuners on my 1917 Gibson mandolin still work very well.

eric

Subject: RE: Tech: Headstock / Tuning Head repairs
From: HuwG
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 09:41 AM

Well done, and thank you all.

My apologies for mistake in my original post. The guitar is actually an F-340, manufactured in Indonesia. The date is unknown. I made the error because the shape and dimensions are similar to an FG-180 owned by a friend.

For a short-term solution, I am off to purchase some plastic wood, cocktail sticks and glue. (Do hardware shop owners really need to know what goes on in my house ?)

For the long term; the tuning machines appear to be as Sandy MacLean describes above. They are not really satisfactory; even the four which are firmly in place on the headstock rattle a bit. I will probably get someone with a proper workshop and skills to replace all six with standard heads.

Please bear in mind that the guitar cost me £60 in the first place, but has lovely tone and suits me perfectly.