Origins: Yonder comes Sister Mary

Subject: Origins: Yonder comes Sister Mary
From: WooBerry
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 10:13 AM

There is a song on American Folk Songs for Christmas by Mike, Peggy and Penny Seeger, called Yonder comes Sister Mary.
In Ruth Crawford Seeger's book of the same name, where it is published, it's source is listed as Seventy Negro Spirituals (I can't remember the author...)

I am wondering if anyone can shed some light on the words (? from a theological standpoint, or cultural)

"Yonder comes Sister Mary,
How do you know it is her
With the palms of vict'ry in her hands
And the keys to Beth-e-le-hem
And the keys to Beth-e-le-hem, oh Lord
The keys to Beth-e-le-hem

TIA

Diana

Subject: RE: Origins: Yonder comes Sister Mary
From: Scotus
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 10:26 AM

I seem to recall a verse in 'The Midnight Special' which starts - 'Yonder comes Sister Mary - - '

Could it be a migration to or from this song?

Subject: Lyrics Add: YONDER COMES SISTER MARY
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 10:59 PM

"Yonder Comes Sister Mary" was published in "Seventy Negro Spirituals," edited by William Arms Fisher, 1926, Oliver Ditson Company, Boston, pp. 208-208, with sheet music.

Fisher commented: "This pentatonic melody from the collection of Mrs. Stella Mae Hill has not before been printed. Songs of this type are prolonged indefinitely by substituting other names and characters as they may occur at the moment."

Lyr. Add: YONDER COMES SISTER MARY
Negro Spiritual, arr. William Arms Fisher

1. Yonder comes Sister Mary.
How do you know it is her?
Wid de palms of vic'try in her han'
An' de keys of Bethlehem,
An' de keys of Bethlehem, O Lord!
De keys of Bethlehem,
An' de keys of Bethlehem, O Lord!
An' de keys of Bethlehem.

2. Yonder comes brother Joseph,
How do you know it is him?
Wid de palms of vic'try in his han'.
An' de keys of Bethlehem, etc.

From the collection of Mrs. Stella Mae Hill. Moderato ma non troppo.
Sheet music dated Feb. 8, 1925.
Under copyright Oliver Ditson.

In the introduction to the collection, Mr. Fisher says: "The degeneracy of the later Spirituals and the neglect of the earlier songs by the descendants of those who gave them birth is due to several factors. To begin with, plantation music and slavery were so interwoven that the first freedmen could not dissociate them, for the singing of the old songs at once brought to mind bondage and all it implied. In turning his back on the past the Negro turned his back on the music associated with it, and the younger generation, eager to follow the ways of white folks, sang the white man's hymns and the revival songs and gospel hymns supplied by songbook agents or from denominational headquarters.
In his eagerness to make progress, as he understood it, the untutored freedman was ashamed of his own wonderful songs, not knowing their uniqueness and inherent beauty ...."
-------
"These songs are rich in melody, but they are more than melody; their texts, though rude, startle with flashes of poetry, but they are more than poetry; they are life itself, sincere as trees and stars, uttering itself in strains mixed of cheer and pathos that come straight home to ears and hearts not dulled by the artificialities we miscall 'civilization.'"

William Arms Fisher, 1861-1948. "He studied along with the Black students who responded to the advertisement by The National Conservatory of Music of America extending a cordial invitation to Negroes in May, 1893." He studied with Antonin Dvorak during his stay and four year teaching residency at the National Conservatory in New York, traveling with him.

Subject: RE: Origins: Yonder comes Sister Mary
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 02:31 PM

Refresh

Subject: RE: Origins: Yonder comes Sister Mary
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 08:26 PM

"In turning his back on the past the Negro turned his back on the music associated with it, and the younger generation, eager to follow the ways of white folks, sang the white man's hymns and the revival songs and gospel hymns supplied by songbook agents or from denominational headquarters. In his eagerness to make progress, as he understood it, the untutored freedman was ashamed of his own wonderful songs, not knowing their uniqueness and inherent beauty ...."

This has become the standard explanation and maybe it is true up to a point, especially when it comes to those songs that have that old timey slave dialect. But I think [another?] reason these songs aren't embraced by African Americans is because some of the dialect words are hard to understand, and many of the slang phrases used in
these songs have been updated multiple times so that we'd have to work to figure out their meaning. Like other other Americans, many African Americans want things easy and translation is "hard work".

See for example this excerpt of this secular slave song {or early post-emancipation song}:

"I'm a nachel-bawn reacher,
Jus' a nachel-bawn reacher,
Jus' a nachel-bawn reacher,
Dat's no lie.

Once I knew a man by de name of Freeze,
Among de gals he was all de cheese.
He was twice as frosty as his name,
He never lacked de letter that dat never came.

        Chorus

Alas, pore Freeze got in a fight,
De coons drew dier razors an' cavred him right.
Dey parted his body freom his breath somehow.
It cuts no ice where he is now.

-Dorothy Scaborough, On The Trail Of Negro Folk Songs", originally published 1925

-snip-

Futhermore it seems to me that expecting African Americans to continue singing old songs goes against our cultural preferance for reworking art and language and making it new. Take old R&B songs for instance, besides for re-working old songs and a few "golden oldies", we {African Americans} aren't really into to the songs of the 1960s and 1950s. Given that, why should we be into the songs of the 1860s and earlier?

And pardon me if I step on any toes, but IMO, White Americans seem much more inclined to hold on to old stuff {like old slang}. [Witness how many White people still say that something is "cool". Since that saying was -um-cool, the "in" thing to say has moved through "fresh", "the bomb", "off the hook", "off the chain" and Lord knows what else. Once a street term or saying enters the mainstream mass media, we've long since move on to other terms.

Bottom line, why do I think African Americans don't sing slave songs anymore?

Cause we been there, done that and have other things we wanna do.

Subject: RE: Origins: Yonder comes Sister Mary
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 01:22 PM

I included comments by William Arms Fisher to provide background to the spiritual, "Yonder Comes Sister Mary," for requester Wooberry. He has not re-posted, so I am not sure that I answered his request satisfactorily.

With regard to the digression by Azizi, I will further digress by deploring the attitude of those who fail to recognize the importance of their history and sluff of the past in deference to 'now.' The attitude seems to be a restatement of the 'now generation' of a while back, but people who only look to present and future gratifification will unfortunately always be with us.

Cool is slang only if one wishes to describe the language of William Shakespeare as slang; he used 'cool' in the sense brought up here (and the usage is possibly even older- Chaucer used 'cool' in the sense of under control or to 'be cool'). The OED gives examples.
"A right cool fish" appeared in fiction as early as 1825 (sense of daring). "A huge rattlesnake crawled out- rather cool" (1865).
"Take it cool"- 1841 (relax).
"Keep Cool with Coolidge"- campaign slogan.
Meaning to kill- military usage, and in Canadian slang in the 1920's.
The 'in thing' often means a burst in popularity of a phrase or a momentary restatement of an old meaning. Of course numerous ephemeral phrases and usages momentarily bubble to the surface, but unless they are taken up by the general populace, they disappear as rapidly as they appeared and little affect our language.

Subject: RE: Origins: Yonder comes Sister Mary
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 01:44 PM

Q, my suggesting other reasons why African Americans aren't going around still singin secular slave songs does not mean that I {or we-if I can speak for others} "fail to recognize the importance of our history and sluff off the past in deference to 'now".

But if you wanna think that I think that, it makes me no never mind.

Peace!

Azizi

Subject: RE: Origins: Yonder comes Sister Mary
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 03:33 PM

Q, I just indexed this song in the Spirituals Permathread. I don't always see these when posted, so please remember to list them there, OK?

~S~

Subject: RE: Origins: Yonder comes Sister Mary
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 05:20 PM

WYSIWYG- Sorry about not adding to the Permathread. I plumb forgot when Mudcat went down again.

I missed the comparison with "Mary and Martha" in the Cleveland Index, but the versions posted here (thread 49184) don't seem close.

Subject: RE: Origins: Yonder comes Sister Mary
From: WooBerry
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 02:25 PM

Hi Q,

I am WooBerry, and I am a woman :)
I missed the repost because I have been working too much, but you answered part of what I wanted to know. I am waiting to get that book of the spirituals, but have to find a reasonable price.

I love spirituals of any sort, though I am not african in any way.
The music just appeals to me. I am not sure about the dialect, whether it is offensive or not. Seems not to be, because they use it on some of the prominent theological sites.

As for changes in songs, I love the history of any song, but I am also trying to adapt some songs for use in my Sunday School program. I think the appeal of the tunes lends them to use for a theological purpose (probably one of the origins of scripture to folk music?).

My question about this song is, clearly the palms of victory are a parousia reference (second coming) and if that is the case, might Joseph be Joseph of Arimathea, and Mary be Mary Magdalene, who were instrumental in the resurrection. However, I have no idea what the "keys of Bethlehem" would be unless it is refers to Jesus.

Anyway, it would be a fun song to sing with the kids, and many names can be substituted. Thanks all!

PS, I don't know how to add to the permathread.

Diana

Subject: RE: Origins: Yonder comes Sister Mary
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 02:52 PM

Welcome to the Mudcat spirituals discussion, Diana. I hope Q will steer you to what we have going on there-- I'm laid up with stomach flu today and I gotta go!

I'm asking my husband about the keys-- he's our diocesan Scripture scholar.

~S~

Subject: RE: Origins: Yonder comes Sister Mary
From: WooBerry
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 05:10 PM

Hello, ~S~

Thank you for the welcome. You mention "diocesan", I am wondering what tradition, and what diocese? (When you're feeling better, of course!)

Diana

Subject: RE: Origins: Yonder comes Sister Mary
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 09:05 PM

Episcopal, Central PA.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Origins: Yonder comes Sister Mary
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 10:30 PM

Wooberry, I'll let WYSIWYG and her husband answer the biblical questions; my knowledge is too limited.
I can usually dig out some of the history of a spiritual or find additional variants, if there are any in the usual references.

As a current and reasonably priced book of spirituals with music, I recommend "Songs of Zion," edited by Verolga Nix, J. Jefferson Cleveland et al., 1981 (and reprints; new, $13.00; used $5.44 up, at Amazon.com).
WYSIWYG has provided links to the many spirituals available here at Mudcat and which are listed in the Spirituals Permathread. Click on FAQ at the top of the page, and scroll down a long ways to the list of Permathreads (blue background) and click on African-American Spirituals. This thread provides links to many in an alphabetized list, and new additions not yet listed there are posted in the messages on the thread.

I can't find variants of this spiritual, but I believe that there could be two, one listing biblical figures one is likely to meet in heaven, the other listing family and friends that have died and will be met in Heaven.

Subject: RE: Origins: Yonder comes Sister Mary
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 01:10 AM

Here is the link to the African-American Spirtituals Permathread .

Thank you WYSIWYG, Q, and others for listing and providing the lyrics of & information about these songs.

Subject: RE: Origins: Yonder comes Sister Mary
From: WooBerry
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 12:10 PM

I know how to get to the permathread, (but I do have to say, it is not easy for a newbie to find things on this site) I don't know how to post a new topic to the permathread, or transfer a topic that is already posted to the permathread.

TIA

Diana

Subject: RE: Origins: Yonder comes Sister Mary
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 01:06 PM

Hmmm. Well, after one and a half years of posting on this site, I'm not sure what is the correct way to add to the African American Spirituals Permathread or any other Permathread.

Maybe it's the same thing as posting on a thread that is not on the main page-find the thread by putting key words into the search engine [though I've found that this doesn't work for "African American Spirituals Permathread"]

Or you can find a thread by clicking on the name of a Mudcat member who you recall posted to that thread [or believe may have posted to that thread]. In doing so, you'll get the person's archived public posts, and therefore get to the desired thread. Unless the thread is closed {which is very rare}, you can then add a new message to the thread.

I have added different versions of spirituals and other songs within old threads or current threads, but I'm not sure if you're supposed to introduce the lyrics with ADD LYRICS or some other introduction.

Maybe WYSIWYG or Joe Offer or someone else can provide this information [again].

Thanks.

Subject: RE: Origins: Yonder comes Sister Mary
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 01:13 PM

And by the way, WooBerry,

Welcome to Mudcat!

Subject: RE: Origins: Yonder comes Sister Mary
From: GUEST,Hardiman the Fiddler
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 01:42 PM

While I am not familiar with the song, I would tend to think of the song as a celebration of the incarnation (i.e. birth) of Jesus because of the imagery of the keys to the city of Bethlehem--Bethlehem being the city of David--and traditional birthplace of Jesus. The theme of the song is the fulfillment of the messianic hope and expectation in the fulfillment of several passages of the Old Testament. Isaiah, chapters 7,9 and 11 come to mind. The carrying of the palms of victory in her (Mary's) hand is especially reminiscent of the 11th chapter of Isaiah in which there is promised that a shoot will spring forth (from the otherwise rather dead) stump of Jesse--which is more familiarily celebrated in the Christmas Carol, "Lo, How a Rose e'er Blooming."

Now, I am not really an expert on the themes of these sorts of spirituals, but as the image from scripture is one of hope and the fulfillment of the promise of liberation, might it have been that the song was a sort of a code celebrating the hope of liberation from slavery?

Hope these comments are helpful, it is an interesting thread. Thanks for bringing the song to our attention!

Greg

Subject: RE: Origins: Yonder comes Sister Mary
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 02:10 PM

Thanks, Father Honey!

I have some further thoughts I want to share from the context of songleading many of these spirituals in our weekly alternative worship service. I haven't tried to put this into words before, so it will be somewhat rambling and verbose, most likely, and scuse the typos!

I'm our band's songfinder. I also edit or write additional lyrics as needed to make things work out right theologically.

That means I listen to thousands of gospel tunes of all sorts, each year, to pick the sounds and texts that say what we want our band to say about life in Christ. The spirituals have attracted me strongly because the sound is strong and the pulse of them is like a steady heartbeat, usually.

The texts as I find them fascinate me, because I find that in the few words shown, they have the power to evoke powerful theological reflection on a variety of aspects of life in Christ, all within the same song. The words do this by keeping a degree of looseness that doesn't restrict my meditations to any single idea or Scripture or point of theology-- they seem to come from an integration of whatever the song's creator had heard and understood of the Bible and preaching up to the point of creating the song, all woven with the context of life as slaves experienced it. A metaphor might be, how do you describe the smells coming out of a cooking pot full of many good things? Each wisp tantalizes, and they combine amazingly.

I find myself wondering, often, what Scripture had they heard, exactly? Had the language (most likely King James) been clear? Had the concepts been presented in a sermon they heard while attending the white folks at a camp meeting, and what were sermons like in that time? Had they had any formal Bibly study? A lot of places didn't allow such. How had the concepts integrated with whatever African religious experience they had on their minds?

So when I mull all this, I don't worry too much about what it all "means" as much as I appreciate that any given song is probably going to "mean" much more than I can ever hope to ascertain. At the same time I feel a sisterhood with those who created the song because, like many of them, I'm just trying to get through each day's challenges being the best child of Christ I can be, and putting my hope on something higher than I ever can be by myself.

As a singer, I won't sing, in church, what I don't live. So if there is material I don't "get," chances are we won't do it. But I don't have to know whatever I understand about a song, in a concrete way. I don't have to exegete the text. I just have to intuit it, and I think maybe that's truer to the culture these songs come from.

In this song, what is evoked for me is an image of Mary and Joseph as described Biblically (humble) juxtaposed with how they were depicted in art of the period. The parental figures of authgority. I see Mary in her blue gown and rope girdle, and to me she looks a bit like the lady of a castle, or maybe even a bit like the portraits of grand southern ladies of Civil War time. Art would have been European in style.... I can easily see a lady with the official household keys on that girdle-- symbol of office as well as essential daily tools to access the household stores. A lady of the Kingdom-- a lady of status but using the status in welcome intead of in harsh rule. And a touch of poetic crossover in the image of the hands with keys/palms of victory-- PALMS evoking HANDS. The song is sung by people whose hands have a definite use-- daily experience of working with hands. To look down on one's own hands and see victory inherent in them would be a powerful image.

I dunno what the slave who originated this song was thinking or feeling-- but that's what the songs brings up, for me.

Now-- how can I hear it to learn it, Diana?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Origins: Yonder comes Sister Mary
From: WooBerry
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 04:52 PM

Susan and Fr.Greg,

Thank you for your thoughts. They are very helpful to me! I do think that the palms of victory are a parousia image:
Revelation 7:9   

The Great Multitude in White Robes
9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

(New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

But I agree that the keys to Bethlehem are Messianic. Of course these are not mutually exclusive, as Jesus is our key to eternal life.
This song is in Ruth Crawford Seeger's Book, American Folk Songs for Children, and on the CD. It is a very lively, joyful song, which is why I want to sing it with the children. It is also noted that you can substitute any other name and continue the song that way. I can send you the page from the book if you like.

There is another song Singing in the Land, that sounds like it, though it is not as evocative in words.

I feel the same way about spirituals as I do about the Catechesis of the Good Shepherd, they evangelize everyone!

Diana