Black Betty banned!

Subject: Black Betty banned!
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 02:35 PM

Just read the following article from the Boston Herald.

Whoa, 'Black Betty' gets ban-ba-banned
By Associated Press
Sunday, February 12, 2006

DURHAM, N.H. - A '70s rock song used to rally fans at University of New Hampshire hockey games for perhaps a decade, "Black Betty," is no more.

    Athletic Director Marty Scarano told the campus newspaper The New Hampshire that the rollicking 1977 song by Ram Jam was banned because it is "theoretically racist."

    The NAACP deemed the Ram Jam version of the old song offensive to black women three decades ago, and UNH has received intermittent complaints about it for years, the Concord Monitor reported yesterday.

    Two years ago, a student group that studied diversity at the school said it should be banned. Scarano said a more recent complaint pushed him to outlaw it, but he did not say who complained.

    Dominated by repetitive "na-na-na-na-nas," "bam-ba-lams" and the exclamation "Black Betty!" the song has been played at the starts of the second and third periods of UNH hockey games for more than a decade, according to a school Web site.

Political correctness run amok.

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 02:38 PM

Nights in White Satin
Whiter Shade of Pale
White Christmas
White Room
etc etc etc
Watch your back!!
Giok

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 02:47 PM

Not a great year for Leadbelly, to many a monumental figure in black culture. We have seen recently an attempt to ban his "Pick a Bale of Cotton", now his classic song "Black Betty" seems to be biting the dust. I sicerely hope that Leadbelly's name will last substantially longer than the names of those who try to suppress him.
   Just to get things out of the way, can I alert these bookburners to the fact there is another great Leadbelly song called "Black Girl"....I imagine if you suffer from a delusion that"Black Betty" is racist, you will think the same about this. And then there is his "Yellow Girl". Oh dear, I think I shall have to lie down for a bit.

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 02:50 PM

Ya know, it's the funniest thing-- we never seem to see Mudcat's people of color complaining about what we nice white folks like to call "political correctness." Could it be there's actually another perspective on this situation????

~Susan

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 02:58 PM

Leadbelly, alas, is unable to complain about this censorship, as he is dead.Were he to be alive, I am sure it would not only be white people complaining(if that is your implication, Suasan: I am not quite sure what you are saying).

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: Pinetop Slim
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 03:18 PM

Can't tell from the AP story cited above, but it would seem the ban applies only to UNH games, so I think you can still sing it in a lot of other places. Like you could probably go out to any Baltimore neighborhood and sing it as much as you want and I bet you wouldn't get into any trouble with the University of New Hampshire sports department.

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 03:22 PM

"theoretically racist"

That's a new one on me. What does it mean? That no one has actually said they find it racist, but it's always possible they might?

The range of things that could be "theoretically racist" or "theoretically sexist"...

Trying to cut out stuff that is intentionally racist is one thing. Cutting out stuff that isn't intended as racist, but actually comes across as racist is a step further.

But "theoretically racist" - that's a step too far. The effect of that kind of category is actually to play into the hands of the real racists.

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 03:38 PM

WYSIWIG,

If you think the University of New Hampshire did the right thing, why not say so? I'd guess Lead Belly might call it a bourgeois school. Black Betty as performed by Ram Jam (as I remember) doesn't say anything about Black Betty except her name. Lead Belly is a bit more demeaning, but then he isn't talking about a person.

I believe a color-blind society is not possible or the NAACP would be the National Association for the Advancement of People.

Unfortunately the Mudcat has a small (very small, I think) number of people of color, so we don't hear their opinions very frequently. But just because someone might be offended by words or actions doesn't make the words and actions offensive.

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 03:44 PM

"But just because someone might be offended by words or actions doesn't make the words and actions offensive."


And even if offensive, should it be banned? I can see not being officially sponsered, but... banned?




I find a that a number of people here make comments that I consider offensive- but I have no more right to attempt to ban those comments than those people have to ban mine. See Justice Holmes' comment on freedom of speech.

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 04:07 PM

People are strange (cue Jim Morrison) ... since the revelation about Gary Glitter and his illness you never hear the erstwhile favourite "Rock and Roll" anymore either.

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 04:10 PM

Well, I havent got the Ram Jam Band recording, but I've just played my Leadbelly version for interest. Cant see anything racist. Mind you, context is everything. If I shouted out in a sneery way "Oh Black Betty bambalam" every time I walked past a black woman, it would be racist. But in no sense does it make the song racist. Though maybe it does make it "theoretically racist"?
    The particular Leadbelly recording I have(he did it several times, I think) has it as a medley with Looky Looky Yonder and Yellow Women's Doorbells.
    There is a lot of discussion about at the moment, inevitably, as to what rights we have to be offensive, and what rights we have not be offended. It is a complex issue. But I have to say that I find it is the banning of Leadbelly    songs that is offensive to me, not the singing of them. When any of the black musicians I work with try to point out that I am wrong, I will listen very seriously, and probably change my mind. Until then, I will stay where I am.
    I do, incidentally, think that plenty of songs are offensive, and should not be sung. But "Black Betty", and "Pick a Bale of Cotton" do not come into that category.

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: GUEST,dax
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 04:32 PM

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 04:33 PM

Here we go again.

If the school doesn't want to play it, they do not have to play it.

We can continue to play it all we want.   Nuff said.

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: GUEST,dax
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 04:39 PM

I have heard of people taking offense at the word "niggardly". I suppose if it sounds somewhat like the "N" word it is no longer politically correct.
I would find it hard to understand why a Leadbelly song would be banned.

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 04:46 PM

The trouble is, Ron Olesko, is you are making the words "school" and "we" equivalent. They arent. A school is a powerful organisation which can impose its views on small people. "We" are just Mudcatters, individuals. The two are not equivalent. "School" is like"government" or "church" or "society" or "army" . You can't always say "Keep your heads down,lad, and perhaps they won't notice us". You sometimes need to say "Hang on a bit, things are going a little far here".

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 04:59 PM

Good point Greg. I did not think of it, but it is a state supported school as well.

Still, I would like to hear from the people who were, or are, offended by this song. I did not necessarily agree with it, but I could see how some people might have been offended by the song Pick A Bale of Cotton. Should a state supported school play songs that offend a segment of it's citizens?   Is it possible to find a song that doesn't offend anyone? Tough questions and there are no easy answers.

Years ago, I did a radio dramatization of Bob Dylan's book Tarantula with a local theater group (and the permission of Dylan's management). Dylan did a satire of Black Betty in his book. No one complained.

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: WooBerry
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 05:15 PM

I once had a fellow resident who was black tell me that the expression: "That's the pot calling the kettle black" was racist.
I actually don't know the origin of the phrase, but I always assumed they were referring to cast iron, which is coincidentally black.

Diana

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 05:37 PM

Nowadays the expression is usually 'the pot calling kettle dirty bottom'. The original (or so I understood it) was 'the pot calling the kettle black arse'; the cast iron (black in colour) pot, referring to the smoke blackened bottom of the kettle from its suspension over the cooking fire (and it's not always a kettle with a spout either).

I seem to recall that the Ram Jam (which is a pub on the A1 and nothing to do with Robertsons jam with the golly on the label) version of Black Betty actually stated that "she come from Alabam..." which would suggest she was an African American and probably from slave stock. I can see why this particular version of the song might cause offence to some, but at risk of being called racist again, there are some people who really ought to just chill out and let it slide.

LTS

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 07:08 PM

Why should it be offensive to "suggest she was an African American and probably from slave stock"?

It's not as if the song says anything disparaging or insulting about her - see here.

If the implication is that saying someone is black is actually an insult, I think that implication is quite breathtakingly offensive.

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: Peace
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 07:11 PM

Zippy Zelda zeroed.

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 07:28 PM

Liz the Squeak said, in part:


Nowadays the expression is usually 'the pot calling kettle dirty bottom'. The original (or so I understood it) was 'the pot calling the kettle black arse';

I have never in my 75 years heard either 'the pot calling kettle dirty bottom' or 'the pot calling the kettle black arse'.   Perhaps we're talking about UK versus US here, I don't know. I have no idea where/when the proverbial phrase came into use.

    --and--

. . .version of Black Betty actually stated that "she come from Alabam'. . ." which would suggest she was an African American and probably from slave stock.

I don't see anything in 'she came from Alabam' that suggests "she was an African American and probably from slave stock". Betty (for some unknown reason called black in the song) could be any race. Now, that phrase along with the Leadbelly authorship certainly (to me) would suggest that "Black Betty" is/was black. Frankly, I have no doubt of that whatever.

I'm unsure what distinction you intend by "and probably from slave stock". Unless you are just being nicey-nice to avoid using the words "N--", "Negro", or "black".

Leadbelly would not be using the word "black" to mean dark-skinned peoples from, say, the Philippines, or India or Thailand, though we had then and more so have now plenty individuals of those origins. And especially "in Alabam'".

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: Peace
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 07:47 PM

Will Apple Betty be banned next? Where will it end?

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 08:07 PM

If the words for which the link was provided are the ones which school members were singing, I find it offensive, as a woman of any colour. "She gets me high." "She's always ready." Sexist sounding at the very least. What's it got to do with school spirit? Things change..it's called progress. Seems to me a university could find a better song for rallying students. Just my opinion, though.

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: Peace
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 08:16 PM

True to that, kat.

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 08:38 PM

You rang?

Here's one of Mudcat's small population of people of color checkin it.

And here's my take on this discussion:
I think that it is offensive to assume that any referent to skin color is offensive. It is one thing to desire and work for a society where one's skin color has no positive or negative valuation, and it's another thing to pretend that differences in skin color don't exist and don't have postive and negative impact.

Specifically with regard to Lead Belly's "Black Betty song":
I definitely don't have a problem with the adjective "Black" being used to describe Betty. {And btw there's little doubt in my mind that the song is about an African American woman}.

Why are some people assuming that Betty should be ashamed that she is a Black woman? {meaning {either or both}
1. an African American
2. a dark skinned African American

I can hear Betty chanting along with me "Black is beautiful". I can also hear her singing along with me "Say it loud. I'm Black and I'm proud."

That said, though I find the song's tune and hook quite catchy, I do have some problems with these lyrics from the song:

"Black Betty had a child (Bam-ba-Lam)
The damn thing gone wild (Bam-ba-Lam)
She said, "I'm worryin' outta mind" (Bam-ba-Lam)
The damn thing gone blind (Bam-ba-Lam)"

-snip-

I don't have a problem with the use of profanity. After all, it's just "damn" . But I don't like calling a child a "thing" and I'm concerned that the lyrics seem to minimize Betty's worry about the child's blindness...

Okay..maybe I take things too literally. But I do work in the child welfare field. So.....

****

And, while I'm here, I would like to point out that references to "Yellow" Gal in these types of songs mean a Black female who is light skinned..."Pinky" is another such reference. So is redbone...

****

btw2 , since the call was made for the opinions of Mudcat's members and guests who are people of color, I'd love to know if there are any other African American Mudcatters. And if not why not...but that's a whole nuther subject.

nuff said for now.


Azizi

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 09:57 PM

Well maybe not enough said.

I just came across a comment which echoes what I wrote. And I'm gonna take the liberty of postinq the entire quote:


Tue Feb 14, 7:09 AM ET

"Colorblindness' disrespects diversity

I hardly consider "colorblindness" to mean respect for diversity. In fact, it is the exact opposite (Colorblind: A new generation doesn't blink an eye at interracial relationships, Cover story, News, Wednesday).

As a woman of color, when people say to me, "I don't see color," or "I am colorblind," they are saying one or both of two things:

• First, to "not see color" is to miss seeing a major part of me. I am not defined by my race, but it is as much a part of my identity as my gender.


• Second, to be "colorblind" is to say to me that in order for you to see me as a person "equal" to you, you must "ignore" or "look past" my race - which is equally insulting.

To treat me with respect is to acknowledge all of me, but to not attach value or make judgments about me because of my race and/or gender.

That is the true meaning of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream to be judged on the content of one's character and not the color of one's skin."


Iris Ingram

Long Beach, Calif.

Source: USAtoday.com Opinion; Colorblindness

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 11:01 PM

Let us also look askance at brown betty (easy to make- or is that sexually offensive?), the Brown Betty teapot, brown betty punch, blackstrap molasses, etc. etc.

My girl's a hullabaloo,
She goes to Texas U,
She wears her colors true,
I'll say she do-

After the game is o'er,
She'll open up her door,

etc.

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 12:14 AM

At least 15 years ago I had to do a one-man workshop at a festival. The topic was left to me to pick. I chose to call it "Songs I Hesitate To Sing These Days 'Cause Of Modern Attitudes!!" The workshop was an hour long, but I could've easily done another two hours. I loved most of those songs. But only with a lengthy intro could I do 'em after putting them out there as historical documents of the way we were once.

Folks, in some real ways, I figure it was a pretty good time for MS to sideline me before the P.C. loss of repertory slowly did me in...

Art Thieme   ;-)

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 12:23 AM

Why don't they just play the Leadbelly version at the hockey game?

Huh?

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: Cluin
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 12:23 AM

You could've gone punk, Art.   ;)

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 01:48 AM

Who ever said Black Betty was a person?

Black Betty - see 'Wake Up Dead Man' Bruce Jackson, "Another name for Bud Russel's truck; more frequently used for the truck that takes inmates from one prision unit to another".
Black Betty - crossing cutting song (axe song)
"Chinaman's A-text (8/19650 sequence p. 193 'Hammer Ring' about Black Betty's crazy baby sired by Jack O Diamonds (prison unit guard in the 1940's, white reputed to have killed more black inmates than any other) illustrates the perceptual quirk: what a black man sings doesn't count, so he can sing things in peace which if spoken WOULD INFURIATES WHITES. Chinaman puns on Black Betty - it of course is the truck that carries people around the farms. but he makes it mean a woman also".

Oh Black a Betty, Black a Betty, let your hammer ring (2x)
Oh Black a Betty's in the bottom (rich fertial land), let your hammer ring
Oh Black a Betty got a baby, let your hammer ring
A-well he crazy like his daddy
Tell me who was his daddy.....
Oh if you don't you tell it....
A Jack O Diamonds was his daddy....
A-well a God told Norah....
I want you to build me a ark-a....

Anoher name for the truck Bud Russel dove "Black Annie"

"Younder come Bud Russel, how in the world do you know?
I can tell bey his wagon & the chains he wore.
Big pistol on his shoulder big knife in his hand
He's coming to carry you bach to Sugarland
(I heard him tell the captain, I'm the transfer man)

Let the Midnight Special shine her light on me....

Down The Line (flatwedding song)

A well Black Betty's in the bottom, down the line (3x)
It takes a number one driver down the line

American Ballads & Folk Songs (John & Allen Lomax) p.60
"Black Betty is not another Frankie, nor yet a two-timming woman that a man can moan his blues about. She is the whip that was & is used in some Southern prisons. A convict on the Darrington State Farm in Texas, where, by the way, whipping has been practically discontinued, laughed at Black Betty & mimicked her in conversation in the following song.

Black Betty
"Oh, Lawd, Black Betty, Bam-ba-lamb (2x)
Black Betty had a baby, Bam-ba-lamb(2x)
It's the cap'n's baby, Bam-ba-lamb(2x)
But she didn't feed the baby......
Black Betty where'd you come from"

The Hammer Song (Hammer Ring)p. 61
"This work chant is to the same air as Black Betty"

I see this as a prison work song no more or less than a shanty
is a sea song used for work, for many reasons. Content not much different either & seems to me that they were sung for the same reasons. I see no offense in their origins. What I do see is a lot of reasons to leave well enough alone. If it ain't broke don't fix it, if it ain't disgusting don't dis it. At least check out the bloody, & I mean bloody sources & origins.

Now please sing the song like it was meant to be sung.

Barry

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 01:50 AM

Hi Art, if you ask me you would've been safe, if not at least right. Always good to hear from you. Barry

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: Davetnova
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 04:01 AM

I knew for many years a woman (now dead) called Black Betty. It had nothing to do with her colour but reffered to her personal hygene.

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 05:07 AM

In Gaelic people are often referred to as "dubh" (black). It refers to hair colour rather than skin colour.

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: erinmaidin
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 05:47 AM

just a few things come to mind...(it's early in morning, pre-coffee)
Leadbelly was (all together now)....a black man.
Writers usually compose about what is familiar to them.
MOST importantly, PC or no, as much as some of us would love to, history canNOT be rewritten as long as there are people alive who know, at least, some semblance of the truth. Hence...I believe songs have historical value. They teach how things were, they show us our progress (or lack thereof).
There are a lot of folk songs pertaining to topics that are "uncomfortable" but hopefully are no longer relevant except in an historical way. ie.-songs about Hitler and his unfortunate genetic accoutrements (sp?). Songs about country vs. country in the plight for freedom....songs about slavery....
I guess I could sum up my opinion by saying "lest we forget".

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 06:33 AM

As a woman of color, when people say to me, "I don't see color," or "I am colorblind," they are saying one or both of two things:

• First, to "not see color" is to miss seeing a major part of me. I am not defined by my race, but it is as much a part of my identity as my gender.


• Second, to be "colorblind" is to say to me that in order for you to see me as a person "equal" to you, you must "ignore" or "look past" my race - which is equally insulting.

To treat me with respect is to acknowledge all of me, but to not attach value or make judgments about me because of my race and/or gender.

That is the true meaning of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream to be judged on the content of one's character and not the color of one's skin."


For me that's right on the money, Azizi. My black friends (I have several) are people I like for themselves; their personalities, their attitudes, and their humanity. I make no patronising comment about my ability to ignore colour because I don't ignore it. It just plays no part in the interaction between us. They, in return, find no significance in the fact that I am white.

The only time I can recall when colour became an issue was in a pub one evening when a couple of black youths decided to make some pointed remarks about Uncle Tom enjoying the company of a Honkey.

My friends had a quiet word with them, and they left. The rest of the evening was great fun and the incident was never mentioned again.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 08:49 AM

Barry Finn, thanks for your comment. Now that you mention it,
I recall reading [somewhere] about "Black Betty" being a term for the whip used by prison guards. I've also read that indirectness, coded, and multi-layed meanings for terms are characteristics of African American songs {and other songs from the African Diaspora?} So in the same song Black Betty could refer to a whip, and a woman, and [perhaps also] the prison van. Perhaps you or someone else here can comment on this.

Also, your comment about "Black Betty" as a referent for a truck rereferring to a truck reminded me of the term Black Maria [mah RYE ah] as a referent for a prison wagon.

The most commonly cited theory regarding this name as a referent for prison vans is that they are named after "Maria Lee, a large black woman who kept a boarding house in the 1820s with such severity that she became more feared than the police, who called on her to help them catch and restrain criminals. The story almost certainly became attached to her much later because she was well-known, black, and was named Maria, but there's no evidence that she was actually the source of the name for the police vans."

For those interested in the origin of terms, here's some links to that and other theories:

terms: Paddywagon & Black Maria

and

Origin of term: Black Maria


****

Don, thank you for directly responding to my post. I appreciate it.

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 08:49 AM

"Black Betty - it of course is the truck " Same kind of expression as "Black Maria" for a police van then.

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 09:10 AM

Barry,

Thanks for doing the research. I was relying on memory, but at least I was pretty on target (this time).

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 10:36 AM

Works for me: Whoa-o Red Chevvy, Bam-a-lam

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 10:40 AM

TBPL,

Now you have to worry about insulting Native Americans, and GM workers...

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 12:37 PM

Are there any songs or tunes called "Paddy Wagon" as a matter of interest.

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 01:25 PM

Closest I can offer is one of the standard variations on Daisy Daisy. With words which I recall as being slightly different from those in the DT

Daisy, Daisy, the coppers are after you
If they catch you they'll give you a year or two.
They'll tie you up with wire
Behind a Black Mariah
So ring your bell
And pedal like hell
On a bicycle made for two.

CHEERS
Nigel

Subject: RE: Black Betty banned!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 06:54 PM

This would solve the problem, if the US produced normal 'lefty radical students' instead of the 'brainwashed politically correct right wing my country right or wrong fascist' type...


Oh, Lawd, Dick Cheney, Bam-ba-lamb (2x)
Dick Cheney went a huntin', Bam-ba-lamb(2x)
Bagged himself a lawyer, Bam-ba-lamb(2x)
But he hasn't died yet......
Dick Cheney where'd you shoot from?