Origins: Bonnie wee croodin doo/Lord Randall

Subject: Origins: Bonnie wee croodin doo/Lord Randall
From: GUEST,Lea
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 06:53 AM

Hi there,
I was just wondering about the song "Ma wee wee croodin doo" as sung by Jamie Mc Menemy on the Kornog IV album.
It is in 7/8 time signature and I just can hardly believe that this is traditional, but the liner notes just say "trad".
I found it here with the names as mentioned above and I scrolled through the Lord Randall thread but didn't find information on the origins of the tune.
Do you have any infos on that?

Thanks Lea

Subject: RE: Origins: Bonnie wee croodin doo/Lord Randall
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 02:10 PM

oh, yes.."Wee Croodlin' Doo" has quite a long history as a variant...it has been recorded by folks like John Langstaff & Judy Bright and others (see this page.

Lord Randall is one of the more famous, and thus changed, ballads. The tune varies from loud and strident to soft and gentle.....I haven't heard the version you note, and it 'may' have been just processed personally by Jamie...

Subject: RE: Origins: Bonnie wee croodin doo/Lord Randall
From: GUEST,J C
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 02:39 PM

Earliest version I could find is in Robert Chambers 'Popular Rhymes of Scotland 1870, where it is described as the same as a ballad called Grandmother Addercook, (popular in Germany)
Bronson gives three versions under Lord Randall (Child 12)1 English, (Lancashire) and 1 American (Tuscon, Arizona).

Subject: RE: Origins: Bonnie wee croodin doo/Lord Randall
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 08:00 PM

The 1980s "Kornog" tune is as Martin Carthy recorded it back in 1972, though Kornog take it at a far faster pace. Martin commented (sleevenotes, Shearwater, Peg Records PEG12) "I have to thank Phil and Sid of Edinburgh for the original idea which led to me recasting the tune sung to 'Lord Randal', known as 'My Wee Croodlin' Doo'."

I'd think that Kornog got the tune (in that form) from Carthy's record, and re-set 'Croodlin' Doo' words to it (Carthy uses an English, or anglicised, text). It's a pity that they don't acknowledge their source in their own sleevenotes, as Lea suggests; I've only heard a short extract of their recording, which can be heard at http://www.arbedkeltiek.com/saozneg/music/kornog.htm#4.

What seem to be unusual time-signatures to us nowadays were often quite common a few centuries ago, but in this case I suspect we are dealing with an interesting, but not traditional, modern innovation; and that it was copied from Martin Carthy.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bonnie wee croodin doo/Lord Randall
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 09:32 PM

mercy! That version from Kornog is certainly frenetic! I much prefer the ersatz 'lullaby' treatments. (and much as I enjoy a lot of Martin Carthy's work, I'm not sure everything profits from having a complex, driving rhythm applied. ☺

Here is a short clip from John Langstaff doing a more 'standard' version. I have heard even slower "singing to the baby" versions, and rather like them as a change.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bonnie wee croodin doo/Lord Randall
From: GUEST,Auldtimer
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 12:17 PM

There is also a Cockney? version, 'enry My Son, with the lines, Where 'ave you bin all the day, 'enry my son. Where 'ave you bin all the day, my wee current bun.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bonnie wee croodin doo/Lord Randall
From: GUEST,Lea
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 02:38 PM

Thanks folks,
that Martin Carthy hint is what I was looking for. I'm almost certain then that he made it up himself...

Great tune, though!!!
Lea

Subject: RE: Origins: Bonnie wee croodin doo/Lord Randall
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 08:18 PM

I don't think that Martin made up the tune, though he certainly modified it rhythmically and recast it into a modal form. A lot of people who didn't read his notes are probably now repeating it as something genuinely traditional. I seem to recall (though I don't guarantee that I remember correctly) his saying that he felt he might have gone a bit over the top with some of the material on Shearwater.

For information on Henry My Son, and its "Cockney" music hall form, see other threads here. It isn't really relevant to this particular discussion.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bonnie wee croodin doo/Lord Randall
From: Cats
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 01:11 PM

Having just returned from the kitchen I have just placed my Lord Randall's Pudding in the steamer when I found this thread. I cannot believe that such a cruel man as Lord Randall actually was a pudding lover! Apart from that, it's a cracking song with a seriously singable tune.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bonnie wee croodin doo/Lord Randall
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 11:20 PM

Oh, I don't know that he's portrayed as a cruel man; rather bitter, maybe: but then, he has just been poisoned by somebody he trusted and he is about to die. That would probably put most people in quite a bad mood, even if they did like puddings at more convenient times.