Northumbrian Typography?

Subject: Northumbrian Typography?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 27 Feb 06 - 03:34 AM

Am currently looking for a Northumbrian style font for a poster design I am planning.However,am experiencing great difficulty locating an appropriate font which has a Northumbrian "feel", is fancy enough to catch the eye in the first place but plain enough to be easily read at several paces.
At present consider American Uncial Normal TTF "Least Wrong."but it's not ideal.
I know there are a lot of creative,imaginative & knowledgable 'Catters out there,so,any suggestions?

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Typography?
From: Gedpipes
Date: 27 Feb 06 - 05:15 AM

What is a 'Northumbrian feel' man?

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Typography?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 27 Feb 06 - 05:16 AM

How do you define your requiremens for a Northumbrian Style Font? [ Paintbrush on a wall saying TOON ARMY? ;@) ].

It is difficult to help without having a better idea of your thoughts. Lindisfarne manuscripts?

You might find some ideas from manuscripts within the online archive The Farne Project.

Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Typography?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Feb 06 - 05:52 AM

Selecting a font that has just the right feel for any particular use is among the most arcane and difficult "arts." Although it seems difficult to explain just exactly why - and many have tried:

        There are literally thousands of typefaces from which to choose.

        By the time you've looked at enough of them to make a selection, they all begin to look alike.

        The "feel" you get when a particular type is set in print depends on getting exactly the right spacing, leading, and in some cases orientation of the characters.

        Actually set in place on your page they never look quite like they did on that page where you saw them and thought they were just what you wanted.

With a visit to almost any good book store you will likely at least a few "typeface sample books." These are usually somewhere near the "art" and/or "graphic art" sections. You may also find some examples of similar stuff at almost any library.

You can look at approximately 2,200 sample typefaces at Adobe Type Library. Note that these are copyrighted, and they aren't cheap; but they may help you determine more specifically what particular characteristics you're looking for, so that you can look elsewhere for a "more economical substitute." Many of the Adobe typefaces also are PostScript (Type 2) and may require drivers not routinely available on personal computers (Adobe Type Manager), although there are "unofficial" rendering programs that can be dug up.

At the library or bookstore, for what I infer from your description of what you're looking for, I'd suggest avoiding the "advertising agency brag books" as they're mostly rather "extreme" typefaces used for "eye-grab" purposes. Look for a Thames and Hudson, Adobe, or one of the old-line book publishing oriented "houses," if possible.

John

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Typography?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 27 Feb 06 - 08:45 AM

When you have made youe selection, please tell us. I can't imagine what you might end up with.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Typography?
From: Snuffy
Date: 27 Feb 06 - 09:38 AM

Uncial script

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Typography?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 27 Feb 06 - 10:55 AM

Geoff the Duck! Udeeduck! Your reference to the Lindisfarne gospels started me looking for a TTF that had been inspired by them.
I struck lucky with one called "PR Celtic Narrow." which is available for free download from DA FONT.COM.
The Farne Project link was also of interest thanks.
B.T.W. their are some of us up here who consider football to be nothing more than 22 grown men chasing an inflated surrogate Pig's bladder 'round a muddy field for one & a half hours.
Can you even begin to imagine how much that view limits conversation 'round these parts?
Gedpipes I think your question was answered best in the opening sentence of JohninKansas much appreciated & useful contribution.
Snuffy you were right as well.
Thank you all.
Now who wants to be the first to claim the Lindifarne Gospels for Ireland/The British Museum/Wherever?

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Typography?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 27 Feb 06 - 03:37 PM

How about Rome?
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Typography?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 27 Feb 06 - 03:49 PM

Nothing doing!
Proposal put to the synod of Whitby was not passed by a two thirds majority on a card vote.
This entitles me to ignore it.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Typography?
From: Tootler
Date: 27 Feb 06 - 06:28 PM

Strangely enough, the Uncial Script in which the Lindisfarne gospels are written is of Irish origin. The Northumbrians were originally converted to Christianity by Irish monks based in Western Scotland and they brought their style of Christianity and script with them.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Typography?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 03:34 AM

Genuine enquiry Tootler.
Were the Lindisfarne Monks Celtic Catholic or Roman Catholic?
I know that the Lindisfarne gospels themselves were produced after the Synod of Whitby, but a relatively short time after,& they obviously weren't knocked together in an afternoon so any ideas?

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Typography?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 04:41 AM

And, of course, the Irish got the script from the Romans via the early missionaries (Patrick, Ciaran etc.), and Irish and English missionaries went on to teach it to the Germans, and it became the Carolingian script too. Much easier to read than the later monkish script.

Certainly after Whitby the monastery would have been brought under Roman discipline; that was the whole point of St. Wilfrid's mission. I would expect that die- hard Celtic monks would have withdrawn rather than accept the change of discipline; and taken any books they had with them. So I think the monks were at least Romanized when they wrote the Gospels. But in any case, there was a great deal of exchange between Celtic and Saxon art styles, and whether Irish or Saxon, the monks would have been steeped in this.

Incidentally, the name Lindisfarne itself seems to reflect the post- Whitby period, as it appears to refer to the attachment of the monastery to Lincold (Lindum).

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Typography?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 12:06 PM

The Lindisfarne Gospels were made in memory of and as a tribute to Cuthbert. Cuddy snuffed it in 687 CE and the Synod of Whitby took place in 664, so yes, by then the Roman discipline had been chosen over the Celtic.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Typography?
From: Tootler
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 07:58 PM

I had a look through my calligraphy books and though the chronology is a little confused developments seem to have occurred roughly as follows.

The Uncial script developed from a cursive form of the classic Roman alphabet possibly around the 2nd Century CE and its main period of use was roughly from the fourth to the eighth centuries and was the form script brought by Augustine to Southern England.

A development of the uncial was the half uncial which was the forerunner of our lower case lettering. This developed about the 3rd century and was the form of script taken by the missionaries to Ireland in the 5th century. The half uncial developed a distinctive form in Ireland known as insular half uncial and this was the form of script brought by the Celtic missionaries to Northumbria. Both the Lindisfarne Gospels and the (later) book of Kells are written in insular half uncial and are reckoned to be the finest examples of this script.

The Carolingian script probably developed from half uncials but certainly its first flowering was due to an Englishman, Alcuin of York who was abbot of St. Martins in Tours and was appointed by Charlemagne to reorganise a revision and production of new books for the Church. Carolingian script is beautifully clear and in it you can see the ancestor of our modern handwriting and of the various "Roman" fonts. Here is an example of Carolingian script.

As to whether the Roman rite had taken over by the time of the Lindisfarne Gospels, I think that has already been answered.

Geoff

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Typography?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 03:18 AM

Thanks for the input everybody.
Paul your point about exchanges between Saxons & Celts is one it does no harm to remind people of.
Tootler Carolingian is one of the most beautiful scripts I ever saw.
A looky likey TTf is also available from da font.
Some may consider that last sentence to be the most philistine ever made on this site.
I just think we are reaching the point where people will crave any alternative to the encroaching, cold grey uniformity of Helvetica.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Typography?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 06:21 AM

Newcastle was one of the most active places in the British Isles for broadside production. My first thought was that if Northumbria ever had a distinctive typographic style, around 1800 would be a better place to look for it than in Cuthbert's time.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Typography?
From: GUEST,ClaireBear
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 09:44 AM

If you'd settle for something faintly Carolingian (not sure exactly what look you're after) as discussed above, there's a free font called "Kelt" available at this site that might do the trick and, unlike many free fonts, has a full character set. "Goudy medieval" is also there; if you're looking for readable that's a good bet, but of course it's quite akin to modern typefaces.

There are lots of other fonts there too (though unfortunately all of the links marked "new" seem not to work). I've just downloaded a few more fonts and am about to unzip them so I can see what I've got. (Doing this at work, I can only get away with a few a day.) I'll get back to you if I see anything Lindisfarne Gospels-ish.

Claire

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Typography?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 10:09 AM

Thanks Claire though I'm still happy with PR Celtic narrow TTF.
Though your point is valid to Jack.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Typography?
From: GUEST,ClaireBear
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 10:57 AM

From today's batch (from the same site), I like "Gaeilge 1 normal" which is rather like American uncial but with "caps" -- really enlarged versions of the lowercase letters -- and better/more interesting diacriticals, to my mind.

Also "Martel" is clearly uncial in nature, though rather heavy.

I'm afraid I find "PR Celtic narrow" very hard to read and not actually very historical in feel, but you know what you want. You might want to look at "PR Unical Alternate Capitals TTF" on that same site, though, for another take on a handlettered look that's somewhat easier to read.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Typography?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 11:11 AM

Try Colonna MT in Word, for a 18th century look.

PP

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Typography?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 11:25 AM

Thanking everybody for their input.
ClaireBear & PiedPiper if you don't know about this try googling the phrase "On snots & fonts."
Despite the yucky title I think that you will both like where it leads.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Typography?
From: Shields Folk
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 11:47 AM

What is name of the font used by Northumberland County Council?
It isn't unreasonable to think that they have put a similar amount of thought into selecting that one.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Typography?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 11:53 AM

Think that one is a logo rather than a font per se.
But it is the sort of lettering style I originally had in mind.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Typography?
From: GUEST,ClaireBear
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 12:21 PM

If the look of the county council logo is what you're still after, the PR Uncial Alternate Capitals font that I mentioned above would actually work quite well. It has very much the same feel to it.

Thanks loads for the Google tip -- I could get in serious trouble at that site (and never get any editing done).

Claire

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Typography?
From: Tootler
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 06:07 PM

Although the "Northumberland" on the county council website could be described as a logo, the graphic artist who designed it clearly started from an uncial script.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Typography?
From: shepherdlass
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 05:30 PM

Isn't it interesting that when we think of Northumberland we still want typefaces that reflect the ancient kingdom and saints? This isn't a criticism, merely a comment. Anyway, hope you find the ideal typeface.