Where Have All The Groups Gone?

Subject: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 11:38 PM

Back in the 50's it was the Weavers as much as anyone, who introduced me to folk music. And then came the Kingston Trio, The Highwaymen, The Chad Mitchell Trio and finally, Peter, Paul and Mary. With the "invention" of the singer-songwriter, groups seem to have faded away. Alright, for a short time, there was the changing of the guard, where Peter, Paul and Mary maintained their popularity by doing songs by Dylan and other singer-songwriters.

For the last thirty years or more, it seems like the primary groups of singers are in string bands (where the one who draws the shortest straw has to sing) and bluegrass (where the harmonies were chiseled in stone in the 40's.) Sure, there are some notable and wonderful exceptions, like Alison Krause and Doyle Lawson and Quicksilver (bluegrass bands not welded into the old style.) But for the most part, group singing (except at folk festivals and maritime centers) seems to have faded away. There sure aren't any more Kingston Trios or Peter, Paul and Mary's on the horizon (as far as I know.) I realize that there is a Weavers "tribute" band and I hear that they are very good, but they are a folk-oldies group. (Kinda an interesting double-barrel approach, come to think of it.)

Did singer songwriters kill groups?

Just wondering..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 11:47 PM

I dunno, Jerry. I guess I have to admit that Bok-Muir-Trickett are gone, but Finest Kind is a wonderful traditional group. Anne Hills, Cindy Mangsen, and Priscilla Herdman make beautiful music together, and Cindy sings very nicely with her husband Steve Gillette. John Roberts and Tony Barrand still sing together.
Hey, and then there are sea groups like the Johnson Girls and Mudcatters Radriano and Chanteyranger, not to mention the In Harmony's Way group from San Francisco. And if you haven't heard Dave Webber and Anni Fentiman, you have a treat coming.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 11:54 PM

Somehow, I don't think of duos as "groups, although perhaps they are. I love to hear group harmony, and I associate that with at least 3 parts. I know there are other duos around and an occasional larger group... some in here, even. But groups dominated folk music for so many years, on a national level...

Jerry

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: michaelr
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 01:22 AM

Ever heard of the Eagles?

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: Bert
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 01:26 AM

Er, no one wants to play with me. ;-)

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 01:41 AM

Me neither, Bert!

;-)

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 02:17 AM

Yes, in the field of what we call "folk music" the singer-songwriter phenomenon, mostly due to Bob Dylan's influence, did by and large kill the previous phenomenon, the folk group. It certainly did for me. However, there are still some great folk groups around at the festivals, and new ones coming. The Wailin' Jennies are a recent folk trio in Canada who have done wonderful stuff together. There are several other fine folk groups I've seen in Canada. It's just not getting as much attention from the mainstream media, that's all.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 02:25 AM

Yes, I am serious. I wonder if most current 'folkies' seem to want to 'do it all on their own' - maybe they think they will make more money for themselves if they don't have to share when they get famous...

My father always believed that the better and more talented a musician was, the more willing and able are they to play with others.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 02:29 AM

I class bluegrass as folk music and bluegrass is an ensemble type music
defined by it's instruments, lots of that around still.

eric

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: jonm
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 03:03 AM

I don't think money is the issue. You cannot easily make a career out of music. Most folkies have day jobs, the average folky is older and more likely to have a family than they were in the '60s. Free time is at a premium and I for one can find time to practice only at irregular, antisocial hours, so that material is all performed solo. I also play with family members, we "practice" regularly at family get-togethers in much the same way as freebie gigs are practices, we keep the stuff that works. Really, for each of us in the family band, we are backing one person's solo material when we play.

I would love to commit to a proper band, but don't have the time.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 03:10 AM

I have to say that many of the "groups" and many of the single acts of the 60's often had an annoying sameness to them. I think that's part of the message of the movie A Mighty Wind. The male groups seemed to try to imitate the Kingston Trio, and there weren't many female groups. I guess there were a number of groups with one woman backed up by a number of men - and the Limeliters, with a tenor backed by men...
-Joe (ducking)-

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: alanabit
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 03:10 AM

It is partly a financial question. There are not many venues, which regularly attract large enough crowds to pay a group, rather than a solo singer. If I do a week's work translating, I can earn far more than I do from a week of gigs. If I do those gigs with another musician, the income is usually only a little more than I get as a solo singer. Then we have to share it.
The organisers are not ripping off my duo or trio. They just are not getting in that much cash. In Germany and Western Europe, cities tend to be closer. However, it is still quite a challenge to travel and still make enough to keep you going. When you are on the road, you have to at least try and recover a part of the income, which you lose by being away from home. In places like the North American continent and Australia, where cities can be hundreds of miles apart, the logistics of making enough money at the lower levels must be very difficult. I am sure there are plenty of good local harmony groups still. It is very expensive for them to take their music outside of their immediate environment though.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: breezy
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 04:47 AM

Egos get in the way ???

Its best to have a band behind you, even if its only a band of one !!

There are many groups over here, but only Fairport and the Fureys play big venues regulary and are known , though Show of hands will soon be there, in 20 years time!!

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: David C. Carter
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 05:04 AM

I rather like The Be Good Tanyas,from Vancouver I believe.I don't quite know how to categorize them though,They seem to go through several different styles.

David

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 05:24 AM

It's the money - no question, and not just for the fees - the transport and accommodation is a challenge with three or more poeple as well. Also; getting a band on and off stage, quickly, at mutli-act festivals can be very stressful (specially for the sound crew - because most folk acts contain multi-instrumentalists).

I had a 4-piece group when I started in folk, but it was hard finding gigs that paid well enough to make the hassle worthwhile. So I slimmed down to a duo (Napper and Bliss) to travel the country and build up a reputation while keeping bread on the table.

Now things are a little easier and we've been able to add two extra musicians (The Pipers Sons) when the money's right - and it's just great to have that wider palette of sounds, and that extra power and punch.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 05:59 AM

...ps, festivals tend to limit the number of bands they book (apart from dance bands), as much because of technical/sound-check issues as the fee.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 06:51 AM

The folk world has never paid enough or charged enough on the door for a four piece to make a living in Britain even when there were hundreds of clubs. It has always been considered a cheap form of entertainment and even today that is the case. A ticket price of £5.00 to see an internationally known name strikes me as ridiculous, but I know some clubs over here still regard that as okay. No group could survive in these circumstances, which is why those who do decide to try to make it as a full time outfit have to go for the radio /publicity/ festival/theatre option. The club world can only support solo acts in general, and at the moment seems to be on its last legs as a way for a musician to earn a living from his/her talent. The ladder to success in the new folk world is becoming more and more like the ladder of popular culture and I think something wonderful has been thrown away through parsimony. And I'm not blaming the audiences, it's most often the people who run the clubs who haven't moved with economic realities.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 07:05 AM

I agree about price and sound check - in fact I am not sure how some groups do it for the money. And I heartily recommend Napper/Bliss who seem to be getting tha attention they deserve from festival organisers.

And yet Bellowhead are 11 strong!!; the up and coming Rachel Unthank and the Winterset are four strong; Peatbog Faeries; loads of Irish and Scottish bands; Blue Murder on their rare appearances are 7 people etc. etc. etc. Many of these are "part-time bands" of course and the people in them have other income, either from music or elsewhere. But it was ever thus.

I think the three/four people and a guitar or two type of group is no longer influential, but that is because folk music has moved on - thank goodness. Such a band would only get appearances on pop music nowadays.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 07:14 AM

Yes, it's a problem. I think a good folk club act is worth as much as a seat at the cinema, for example.

But there are some really great clubs where the door charge is under a fiver, and the club has to build up funds until they can book a 'name' guest or a band. Often the organisers would love to charge more on the door, but fear that the regulars (who keep the club alive) might not turn up. And it the guest doesn't pull in non-club people (who perhaps won't come becuase they don't like floor singers or clubs in general) then they'll loose money.

Many folk clubs are just that - clubs, run for and by the members who, quite reasonably, want more from their club than just concerts - in fact, for some people, guest nights are the lest attractive aspect of the clubs activities (and why not - I myself prefer to play than to listen).

So it's a complex proposition, and I admire club organisers who can juggle all the different demands successfully (as most do).

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 08:44 AM

Just to put in a plug. Baltimore has two folk groups that are making a go of it. "Hot Soup" is a female trio. "We're About Nine" is multinumbered, how many can depend on the day and the venue. I know part of Hot Soup continuing to go on is that each member also works solo. I'm sure it is stressful being in a group ego-wise. It is also difficult financially as others have said. Many solo singers start out work by having a day job to bring in most of the income. With a group, it gets harder to coordinate everyone's day job with the gigs.

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 08:51 AM

All good observations. I ran a folk concert series for many years and almost without exception, the only groups I booked lived in the area. Even then, it didn't make a lot of sense economically to travel across country with a group. That's even more true now, with the cost of gas so much higher. I also think that the group sound in the 50's and 60's was more familiar to the ear of the general public than solo singers. It was quite a switch from hearing all the big band singers who went on their own, but were still backed by bands, to a solo singer and guitarist sitting on a chair on a large stage. The Kingston Trio, the Weavers and other groups weren't that big a stretch from the Ames Brothers, the Mills Brothers, the MaGuire Sisters and the other groups of the 50's.

I think it was the beat what got the folk groups. Dylan ended up bringing folk music into the electric era and groups like the Byrds and the Eagles made the transition to folk-rock. And that's all she wrote.

Keeping a group together is a challenge, emotionally, physically and economically. If you're in it for the money, forget it. My quartet (which is temporarily a trio) in in our tenth year together, with the two other current members orginal to the group. It's hard to keep a group going. Money won't do it. Egos destroy, they don't bring people together. It's love and humility that keep a group together.

Rare commodities.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: lesblank
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 11:17 AM

How about "Fourtold" ????

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: ifor
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 11:24 AM

Listen out for Coope Boyce and Simpson.They are a brilliant acapella folk band with soaring harmonies .The songs are superb too..often politically charged and committed.Great stuff!!
Ifor

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 01:05 PM

I'm not sure there are really fewer groups now than there were then; I think it's a function of the way you define and classify music, to some degree. You excluded two genres (bluegrass and old-time) that are group-dominated, which is bound to skew the final count. You would probably have excluded a few more if you had thought to (Celtic, folk-rock, blues). Then you could have excluded groups that are collaborations of individual singer-songwriters (Cry Cry Cry, Redbird), or groups formed around one main front person, on the basis that they don't really count for some reason.

What's left is really a sort of bland folk-pop, which is (in my opinion) what the old groups you mentioned were. There are no longer large numbers of groups like the Kingston Trio, PP&M, and the Chad Mitchell Trio? You can lament that if you like; for myself, I can't say I miss them all that much.

However, I do agree with a number of folks who have mentioned the financial and interpersonal difficulties that go along with groups. It seems a lot of us have experienced these things; I certainly have. And yet, there is nothing I enjoy so much as finding the right combination of musicians and personalities, and creating something greater than the sum of its parts. It sure can be tough, but it's awfully rewarding when you can hold it together.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 01:11 PM

Whistlestop: It's funny that you should say that I exclude bluegrass and old-time bands (string bands.) I acknowledge them in the third sentence of my opening post of this thread. No, I don't moan the loss of the pop-folk groups like the Kingston Trio. I just asked a question, with no agenda.

I'm enjoying the responses.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 01:28 PM

My experience is that the larger the group the more likely you're going to have at least one member that doesn't have the same level of commitment as the others.

With our eight piece group it's the singers that are more likely to be late, miss rehearsals, and be unwilling to haul PA equipment around. That's why three of us instrumentalists formed a group on the side - and I can't remember us having any conflicts of any kind. Your milage may vary of course.

But I'd like to think that somewhere out there in the world of music that there is a place for the larger groups that we are talking about. Now if there were just an audience for them......

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: Anonny Mouse
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 01:28 PM

A few of the "old folkie groups" are still touring, and for the most part, filling venues; mid-sized theaters, large clubs or ballrooms, and an occasional Symphony hall. I think the current incarnation of the Kingston Trio-no originals left-tours quite a bit, and often with some symphony that one of the members has written charts for; the Limeliters only have Alex Hassilev left as an original, but also have concert dates; Chad Mitchell Trio is on some kind of reunion thing, and there is a "Brothers Four" group out there, but I have no idea who the "brothers" are right now. So, my point bein' there IS a market for this-but certainly nothing like the 50's and 60's. Oh yeah-PP&M with Mary having battled leukemia so far successfully is out there too.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 01:47 PM

Sorry Jerry, I must have misunderstood you. But if you're including bluegrass and old-time, there are a huge number of groups now; more than ever before, I would guess.

I just think that, where we used to think in terms of "folk" groups, now everything is fragmented into sub-genres, and we'd be more inclined to say "no, I don't mean Celtic; I mean folk!" Since each sub-genre takes a piece of the total pie, the remaining unclaimed piece looks that much smaller. See what I mean?

I'm enjoying the responses, too. ?In fact, I always enjoy your threads. I'll continue to follow this one.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: GUEST,Thespionage
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 01:51 PM

I am currently in a comic folk duo, Russ & Eli. I think that counts. And what about the Mammals?

Russ

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: Bert
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 01:59 PM

Another great group is Modern Man

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 02:18 PM

'salright, Whistlestop. My definition of "folk" is probably broader than most. I think a lot of the old rhythm and blues groups fit into that category... they were untrained singers singing about stuff that was going on in their community, and the tradition they were carrying on wasn't banjos and dulcimers... it was The Ink Spots, The Delta Rhythm Boys and the Mills Brothers. Same thing with gospel quartets. I'm of the vintage that considers folk music to at least include ever genre in Alan Lomax's Folk Songs of North America (which also would includes blues.)

Reading this thread makes me think that what has happened is that folk groups have gone back to what they were before the brief period of commercial success: local groups. Some may have a regional recognition, but there's not much of a market for a national act. I also suspect that there are pockets in this, and other countries where small groups are popular. In black gospel, Mass Choirs became the "thang" ten or fifteen years ago. Quartets and smaller groups don't have a large following in much of the country, although the older groups like the Sensational Nightingales, the Dixie Hummingbirds, the Fairfield Four and the Blind Boys of Alabama are still touring. Gospel music now is heavily concentrated on mass choirs, or lead singers backed my mass choirs and a long string of keyboard players, guitarists, bass players and drums.

No sense in having a 24 track studio for four voices and a guitar. Where's the fun in that?

I'm proud to say that I am hopelessly out of date and intend to remain so.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 02:54 PM

One of the guys in my group purchased a Brothers Four live in Japan CD. I'm pretty sure that it was recorded within the last few years and had all of the original members.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: Anonny Mouse
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 03:02 PM

From Wesley S: "One of the guys in my group purchased a Brothers Four live in Japan CD. I'm pretty sure that it was recorded within the last few years and had all of the original members."

I doubt it--seriously. But I'd be happy to be proven incorrect. Even from the "originals," one guy left and like Charlie on the M.T.A. NEVER RETURNED.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 03:21 PM

I don't see an issue at all here. The UK market supports a number of groups: Show of Hands ARE filling big venues every night (breezy, you're out of touch - look at their gig list); Coope, Boyes & Simpson are doing fine, thank you. Bellowhead are filling even larger venues (and ones with a rock- and pop-reputation, at that); and Jez Lowe has been touring with the Bad Pennies in the US all February and Australia/New Zealand in March. Eliza's Ratcatchers are getting plenty of gigs, and now that they are getting better known, so do The Devil's Interval. The Witches of Elswick have been busy until impending motherhood slowed them down recently. Mawkin have them dancing in the isles regularly, and the Damien Barber Roadshow seems to be booked in a lot of festivals plus several big venues.

Many of the folk clubs don't get to see these artists, or not as often as we might like - but when you are stuck in an anachronistic mode of £5 (and a lot less too) guest night ticket, of course you won't get anywhere near them. And so the folk scene is moving inexorably away from the clubs; I am afraid that it is as Jim Moray said on Folk Britannia: The next revival will happen without the knowledge of those stuck in the past, and one day the clubs will look up and find that there are things happening that they can never take part in.

Here is a good example: One of the last folk club gigs that Show of Hands did was in my town, at the Tudor folk club, a couple of years ago. Last year they did less than half a dozen folk club gigs (though their diary was full); and this year they have none planned. Yet they are coming back to my town - this time to the 350-seater Elgiva theatre, 200 yards from the Tudor club venue.

It's not the Tudor club's fault, but the fault of the "old" folk audiences, who find paying £12 or £15 too much for a night of good music on their doorstep, but willingly pay 3 times that for one night of a crappy musical production in the West End. Guess what - the groups don't care, they are finding new folk audiences with no such preconceptions, and as for the "old" ones, well they change their ways or get left behind.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 03:32 PM

Pro harmony groups are costly. Coope Boyes and Simpson will I think charge a club £300 on a wet Monday if they are nearby on the way back from Germany. A club cannot make money on that.

But why no amateur harmony bands, I really don't know, other than it does take practice practice practice, doing the same song 50 times until you are sick of it, and the more parts, the more practice.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: Santa
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 03:57 PM

Tanglefoot? Aren't they a folk group?
Uiscedwr (Spelling?)
Colcannon
John Wright Band
Alan Bell Band


Ah! - that's where they've gone. Look under folk bands?

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: Burke
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 05:57 PM

Cherish the Ladies
Noel Sing We Clear (or other iterations of John Roberts and Tony Barrand working with George Ward, Lou Killen, or others)
Moxy Frouvous
Arrogant Worms
David Grisman's groups
Herdman Hills Mangsen (already mentioned)
Contra dance or string bands when they aren't playing for dancing will sometimes add vocals.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 12:22 AM

Somehow world music (for want of a better term) seems to lend itself to groups (or bands, which may not be the same thing). Just in Australia, there's Blindmans Holiday, Xenos, Vardos, Doch, Transylvaniacs, the Kazakhstan Cowgirls and lots of klezmer bands - Klezmania, Klezmeritis, KaOz Klezmer, Counterfeit Gypsies.

For folk harmonies, no one beats The Fagans, although you don't get to hear them too often.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 04:41 AM

Yes it is true that 'groups' as such are difficult to finance and are finding that they need to book larger venues to make a living

Please however do not confuse folk clubs and weekly meetings/occasional guests with the need or duty to provide an income for such groups!

I do get annoyed when when people talk about demise of folk clubs and music sessions in favour of Concert clubs and Folk Festival 'artistes

Please do not go down the route of writing off people who enjoy singing and playing for their own entertainment ~ folk music came from the people and continues to be 'made' and sung by the people

There is a place for all in our 'house' lets get along together please for the mutual benefit of our Art.

The state of musician ship in folk arts has to my mind improved immensely and continues to be reflected in sessions and on the Main stage

Folk clubs continue to provide a significant part in the income of professional and semi professional folk acts and exist in very many formats and for a variety of different reasons continue to thrive

These reasons are not always dependent upon booking guests, nor should they be ~ and should not be accused of standing in the way of progress for those who seek more lucrative experiences!

Ray Padgett

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 06:55 AM

"Listen out for Coope Boyce and Simpson.They are a brilliant acapella folk band with soaring harmonies .The songs are superb too..often politically charged and committed.Great stuff!!"


As Richard said above, a small folk club cannot even consider booking them. My own club struggles to get 15 to 20 bums on seats in a town where two music venues folded after trying to charge £12 for BIG name acts. If the punters won't pay more than £5 it is they who live in the past, not the organisers.

We lose money on every guest night, but we manage to cover using the money from singers nights. Should we then give up and let the whole thing die?

I DON'T THINK SO!

We can continue as long as SOME of the "names" remember where they started their careers.

Martin Carthy is a very good example. He fervently believes that he owes a debt of gratitude to the folk club scene, and is always willing to negotiate on fees with the smaller venues. If you were to tell him it doesn't make business sense, I think you would get a very interesting answer.

It is very likely that the fact that his popularity has never waned has a great deal to do with this attitude.

Other acts, who are currently riding high, might do well to give this serious consideration, because cutting themselves off from the grass routes may prove costly when the next big name pushes them down the list.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: GUEST,Nicholas Waller
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 08:22 AM

The Topic in Bradford, not an enormous venue, of course, has hosted a few groups (ie more than 2 people) in the past couple of years: the Duncan MacFarlane Acoustic Band, the John Wright Band, Artisan, Westport, Whitney Gin, the Durbervilles, the Bisserov Sisters, Soundsphere, Grace Notes, Kimber's Men, and the Hall Brothers with Hannah and Clair.

Hannah and Clair (who are pretty young) are now in their own 4-piece group, Entropy, who are playing later this year and "have been likened to early Steeleye Span and Fairport Convention"; other booked groups include 5-piece CrossCurrent, also young - recent first graduates of the new degree course in folk and traditional music at Newcastle - and The Queensberry Rules.

Duos in the recent past or booked to appear this year include Magna Carta and Solan, both of which were once bigger groups, and Tom Napper Tom Bliss, cloudstreet, Dana and Susan Robinson, FYRISH, Winter Wilson, William Pint and Felicia Dale, Alan Reid and Rob von Sante, Danyluk and Card, Cordner and Rudolph, Emily and Ben, Steve Gillette and Cindy Mangsen, Scold's Bridle, and quite a few more.

Of course there are also a lot of single peformers as well... the Topic recently hosted Roy Bailey and coming up there's Wizz Jones, Julie Felix and Vin Garbutt amongst plenty of others. Jez Lowe sometimes comes alone, sometimes with some Bad Pennies.

As far as entrance is concerned, it's usually GBP5/6 with occasional forays into GBP8 territory; whatever the Name, I imagine GBP12-15 is a lot to ask in most pub-based clubs if people have to perch long on typical pub furniture such as low stools.

For anyone who hasn't been to the Topic for a while and is thinking of going, remember that the club has, since January, been in a new venue - the Cock & Bottle, a historic* Bradford real ale pub. Brewing on the premises is under way again for the first time since 1927, with the first beers due later this month. (More on the venue, club, faq, map, and past and future acts at http://www.topic-folk-club.org.uk)

*It's got a Heritage Inn Blue Plaque to prove it...

Nicholas Waller, Topic Webo

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Groups Gone?
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 08:54 AM

Good on yer Nick on promoting such guests, as I said it takes all sorts!

Look at the vast difference in clubs such as the Rockingham Arms at Wentworth which books guests virtually every week and The No smoke folk on the same night some 5 miles away! and Booit Straps in the same pub on different night (Commercial Inn)(near Sheffield)

Lester Simpson of CBS along with Mick Peat on Radio Derby regularly plays 'Finest Kind' an acapella group from Canada who are brilliant!
Ray

BBC Radio Derby is also online and be listened to via your pc!!