Mudcatters please help

Subject: Mudcatters please help
From: George Henderson
Date: 30 Jan 99 - 07:17 AM

Attn. Big Mick, Joe Offer, Allison, Dick, Liam's brother, Liam himself and all other mudcatters.

I introduced myself some time ago as a friend of Frank McGrath's at the Nenagh Singers Circle.

I understand that Frank has given you all a little info about me.

But I need some serious help !!

I have a fairly large data base of songs included in a tape catalogue which relates directly to home made live recordings at sessions. Most of these recordings are of trad. songs although some would have been written fairly recently. What is the copywrite situation?? I am not a musician so I cannot provide music, nor do I have the facility to relay the music to you all.

I am also very green on the computer. I have posted a couple of songs to the mudcat but no one seems to have accessed them and I am feeling a little discouraged. What should I be doing and can any of you help?

The songs I have posted are not in the DT data base as far as I can tell although I have not yet managed to download the data and my searching has been restricted to fairly limited on line time.

The songs were :

The Jolly Little Tailor (under the thread title of ceremonial songs) The pawnbroker's wife (which I posted last week) Billy O'Shea. (I didn't realise the dates on the original thread when posting this song.)

Amongst my own repertoire I have numerous songs the versions of which do not appear to be in the data base.

I made an enquiry, through Frank, about an old song that I have, called Lavender's blue, or Dilly dilly, and would like to know more about its origins. I learned this song from a hero of mine, who died some years ago. His name was John Knight and I know that he got it directly form his Granny who told him she got it from her mother. My own investigations show that it goes back at least 200 years but I would like to get at some idea of its source. My version id definitely not in the data base.

I would like to contribute more to mudcat but I am unsure how to go about it.

Finally I will be visiting London, Detroit, Cleveland, Niagara Falls and Toronto at the end of May and beginning of June, on vacation. Anybody know of any sessions in those areas. Obviously I will be passing through many places en route.

I look forward to hearing from you all. Incidentally, watch out for Irish Music mag. Feb. issue. Frank will have the full Spancil Hill story together with photo's etc published in that issue.

George Henderson.

Subject: RE: Mudcatters please help
From: alison
Date: 30 Jan 99 - 08:19 AM

Hi George,

I'm not even going to attempt the copyright question....

But if you have lyrics which are not in the database, the best thing to do with them is create a new thread. People tend to call them Add lyric (then the actual name of the song... that wasy they're easier to find.)

If you have music, (sheet or audio) I am willing to convert them for you, (check if there is already a tune in the database first). I can do this either from real audio files or the good old fashioned way with a cassette.

Let me know if I can help.

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Mudcatters please help
From: Rois
Date: 30 Jan 99 - 09:30 AM

Hi George,

Irish Music Mag. is news to me - Could you give me a little info? I'd love to subscribe -

Also, I have been searching for the words to Jane McWilliams for years with no results - ever a chance you've come across it? It is about a woman who drowns her child as he begs to be let ashore. A carefully chosen night-time lullaby my gram (Ballymeana native) sang to us often.

"Jane McWilliams it is my name, I have brought myself for to sin and shame, for the murdering of my baby dear, there was never a mother so severe....."

Thanks,

Rois,

Subject: RE: Mudcatters please help
From: katmuse
Date: 30 Jan 99 - 10:24 AM

Hi George -- I just joined Mudcatters a few hours ago myself, so I don't know Frank, and I don't know whatever info he's given about you (yet). I'm just reading discussion postings, haven't had a chance to look at the database yet. One of the first things I came across in these discussions was your posting of the Pawnbroker's Wife. Love it! (I can almost hear a tune in my head, but where can I find "The Waterford Boys"?)

What specifically do you want to know about the copyright situation? Can't guarantee that I'll have answers, but try me.

Truly trad. songs aren't copyrighted, except maybe someone's particular arrangement (printed or recorded) of same. Newly written songs may or may not be, depending on whether the authors/composers bothered to copyright them. If someone has put a "c" inside a little circle, that indicates copyrighted (or a "p" for performance rights), and technically one is s'posed to pay royalties to use copyrighted materials (at least for public performance, or at least public performance for monetary gain, recording, etc.), not photocopy them without permission from author or publisher, etc., etc. Seems to be an intersection (or clash) of ethics and capitalism.

(Somebody please correct me if I've given misinformation here.)

I first heard "Lavender's Blue" as an English nursery song when I was a nursery kid myself, ca. 1940 (possibly with political overtones or undercurrents, I learned later in some college folklore course?), and also heard someone like Ella Fitzgerald (or thereabouts) sing it in a croony-pop rendition (probably mid or late 1950s?). I'd forgotten all about it until a friend suggested, a couple months ago, that we include it in some repertoire we were putting together for a potential gig. Shortly thereafter it surfaced again in an SATB arrangement (maybe from the King's Singers) that a small chamber-singers group I'm in was considering for our upcoming performance cycle -- so it must be serendipitously making the rounds these days. It's included in the Sing-Out collection "Rise Up Singing" (p. 29), which says it's English trad., first printed in 1680 as "Diddle, Diddle." If you find out anything else about its history or variant versions, I'd like to know too -- thanks.

Subject: RE: Mudcatters please help
From: Bruce O.
Date: 30 Jan 99 - 11:30 AM

The 17th century version of "Lavender's Blue" is on my website in the Scarce Songs 1 file at www.erols.com/olsonw

Subject: RE: Mudcatters please help
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Jan 99 - 11:34 AM

Hello George,

I am sorry that I have been neglecting my duties to the 'Cat of late, however I am a Union Organizer and I am in a phase of the process that keeps me away quite a bit. Never fear, I am just as involved as ever, but my day job leaves me little time for anything else, and I must devote most of my free time to my band.

As to the copyright issues, we have had threads that spoke extensively on the matter and perhaps Joe Offer can direct you to them or you can try a forum search. That is found on the main forum page and is not to be confused with searching the DigiTrad database.

You mention that you are coming to Detroit at the end of May or the first week of June. I live only about 2 1/2 hours from there. Let me know your exact itinerary and I will, if possible, try and meet you there and we will search out some sessions, or at least stop at the Gaelic League for a proper of Uncle Arthur's. Please let me know.

With regard to the posting of lyrics, the advice given by the fair Alison (Ahh, be still my quivering heart, but the mere mention of her name........)is the best. Post them as a LYR ADD:Title goes here and be patient. Dick and Susan watch very carefully for new lyrics and will pick them up. I am not sure how often they add them in. Hey Dick and Susan perhaps you could answer this one for our friend.

Please continue to contribute. I watch carefully for Frank and your posts. You who are in the Nenagh Singers Circle are an integral part of our community.

INFO ON IRISH MUSIC MAGAZINEThis is a marvelous magazine which I have been reading for over a year now. If you are a fan of Irish music it is hard to beat. You can subscribe using snail mail by sending a subscription request to them at:
Irish Music Magazine
11 Clare St.
Dublin 2
Ireland
The rates are $45/year Us or $85/2 years. My keyboard won't do the sign for punt/pounds, but the cost in Ireland/and the UK is 19.5punt/year or 36punt/2yrs. In Europe it is 32.50/year, 58.50/2years, Canada is $73/year, 137.50/2yrs. The rest of the world, by surface mail is 30punt/yr, 55.50/2yrs, the rest of the world by airmail is 47.50punt/yr and 90punt/2yrs. You can do a Visa/Mastercard subscription by fax at 01 662 4886 or via their website at Irish Music Magazine

All the best,

Big Mick Lane

Subject: RE: Mudcatters please help
From: gargoyle
Date: 30 Jan 99 - 01:18 PM

The "copyright issues" were under the title "intellectual property" last thread was in October.

For virtually every concievable source of solid music copyright rules go here:Music Copyrights

These are the folks that shut down the "lyric server in France."

Subject: RE: Mudcatters please help
From: katmuse
Date: 30 Jan 99 - 01:52 PM

George -- I just clicked over to gargoyle's suggestion, above, and yes, it looks super-complete. Just before that I was visiting The Copyright Website, at http://www.benedict.com -- might be something useful there too.

Subject: RE: Mudcatters please help
From: BillyJ
Date: 30 Jan 99 - 02:09 PM

if in doubt record the songs and submit them to the music rights association in the country they will advise you as to what royalties are due and what percentage usually about 5% to 8% per song so i am told as i have asked the same question in ireland

billy j ireland

Subject: RE: Mudcatters please help
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 30 Jan 99 - 04:11 PM

Hi George!

Sorry, George, Liam drew a blank on this one.

Your other questions being addressed, let's talk about your trip. How could you come to North America and miss NYC? You can go to a session nightly here! Anyway...

Take a look at "http://www.prof.co.uk/venue.htm" under USA and you will find the Irish American Club in Detroit. Also, see CANADA - Windsor. Windsor is just opposite Detroit. Only a bridge or tunnel away. Check whether a Canadian visa is necessary with your travel agent soon. The information at this site, by the way, was assembled by a dedicated Mudcatter (Thread: Irish sessions - where do you play?) and you might like to add to the IRELAND area which is hardly complete.

Next, take a look at "http://www.geocities.com/Nashville/7088/sessions.html" for sessions in Toronto and London, Ontario.

I don't know anything about Cleveland except that, years ago, the river caught on fire. If you can't get any information before you arrive, look in the "white pages" of the phone book under "Irish," "Ancient Order of Hibernians," etc. Just call and ask some questions and you should get connected if anything's happening.

Hope this is helpful. If none of this works out, maybe Mick will swoop down to Detroit and take you up to the Cabin in the Woods!!!

All the best,
Dan

Subject: RE: Mudcatters please help
From:
Date: 30 Jan 99 - 05:26 PM

Here are two web-sites which may have a bearing on Cleveland, Ohio sessions:
Musical Jam Sessions FAQ
Folknet - Northeast Ohio's Folk Traditional Music

Subject: RE: Mudcatters please help
From: George Henderson
Date: 01 Feb 99 - 10:23 AM

Immediately after posting this new thread my PC went down and i am only just back on line.

Alison, Thanks for the offer re music. I amy avail of it but I would prefer to get someone closer to home to do the job.

Rois. I haven't come across the song you are looking for. I will check with my colleagues and see if anyone else has come across it. It could be in Sam Henry's collection.

Katmuse. Thanks for your messages. I will post my version of Lavender Blue in the nest couple of days.

Bruce 0. Thanks, I will check it out but I still think its origins are much, much older.

Big Mick. I will certainly give you a shout before my trip. Thanks. I look forward to drinking a pint with you.

Dan Thanks for the info re sessions. I will discuss these along with many other things when you are here in person.

George

Subject: RE: Mudcatters please help
From: Ritchie
Date: 01 Feb 99 - 10:58 AM

George,

Thanks..I've been wanting the lyrics to the 'Man with 3 balls' for ages but had n't got round to asking for them.

See it's true..everything comes for those who wait.

Still waiting Ritchie.

Subject: RE: Mudcatters please help
From:
Date: 01 Feb 99 - 12:04 PM

More information about US Copyrights may be found in the Cornell web site dealing with the US Code. Look at Title 17 Copyrights. http://www.law.cornell.edu/usc/ Tully

Subject: RE: Mudcatters please help
From:
Date: 01 Feb 99 - 08:37 PM

Thank you for that info, Liam's Bro.

I followed the link, and was surprised to learn that they had Irish sessions at the Nesbitt Inn, which is about three blocks from where I live. I always thought that it was an English pub, and that the Irish, Scots and Cape Bretoners went to O'Ryans and The Sandwich Mill. I must go and give it a listen.

There is also going to be a "celtic" festival in Windsor this year, the second annual. (It's called celtic to keep the Welsh and the Manx happy, but almost all the music and dancing is Scottish or Irish or Canadian regional variations thereof.)

Last year's was pretty good, with more Guinness sold the first night than they expected to sell all weekend. (There was a refridgerated truck, full of kegs of the good stuff, a glorious sight.) The music ranged from traditional, like Cape Breton fiddlers and pipers, Irish groups, etc, to electric celtic at night for the twenty-somethings. This year they plan to have a bigger stage and sound system and will have it in a park that isn't built yet, across from the Casino. And God be praised, Port-A-Johns this year! Last year desperate souls were lining up to get into a tiny bathroom in the park pavillion. Last year's festival was held the last weekend of July, but I don't know what the plans are for this year.

When are you going to be in Detroit? There is a huge fireworks display around Independence Day/Canada Day where they block off the Detroit River and set them off from three barges. It is better, and safer, to watch it from the Canadian side because most of the waterfront in the viewing area is parkland.

The Irish place in Detroit is The Gaelic League, on Michigan Avenue IIRC near Tiger Stadium. It is a little too political for my peaceful tastes, but the Wolftones played there.

I didn't know Irish people needed visas to come to Canada. I don't think people from the UK do unless they intend to work. I suppose I am just used to flashing my birth certificate to cross the border. It can't be too hard to get into Canada anyway. When the World Cup was in Detroit the Swiss were driving over on motorcycles they had somehow brought with them from Switzerland.

Just tell the person at the border that you are going to see "The Windsor Ballet.":)

Subject: RE: Mudcatters please help
From:
Date: 01 Feb 99 - 08:45 PM

There is always the Toronto Celtic page.

http://www.geocities.com/Nashville/7088/

Subject: RE: Mudcatters please help
From: Barbara
Date: 01 Feb 99 - 09:27 PM

George, one small bit of Mudcat info -- just because no one posts to the thread or the song you posted, doesn't mean they don't read it.
LYR ADD in particular often goes without response, or maybe just a thank you. I thank you. I read both of the songs you posted, thought they sounded interesting, and in one case added the lyrics to my file. I won't be able to sing them, however, unless someone adds a tune. (or I swipe a likely candidate)
Thank you! Please keep posting songs!
It seems to take Dick and Susan between a half year and two to get posted things into the database, tho popular demand does appear to have some bearing. Basically, the Database is updated twice a year, and they have a backlog.
And I don't know about them but if I was adding things to the database, I'd probably do the ones I was interested in first.
So, welcome to Mudcat. Glad to have you.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Mudcatters please help
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Feb 99 - 11:55 PM

Grand, George. I have already started searching out sessions. And there Gaelic League is certainly one place, but there are a number of others. The oldest settlement in Detroit is Corktown and the Irish are all over the town. In fact, Let me know the date you are coming and I will see if we can set up a session. That would be a great time.

George, my friend, your posts are looked forward to with great interest. I downloaded the lyrics immediately. It is as Barbara said, a great many people just read and copy the LYR ADD posts. Just keep contributing. And I am anxiously awaiting the Feb issue of the magazine. Any chance of recording the session that Robbie is at?

All the best,

Mick Lane

Subject: RE: Mudcatters please help
From:
Date: 02 Feb 99 - 06:08 AM

To Barbara and Mick.

Thanks for the encouragement. I will ask Robbie if he ahs any objection to a recording.

I am a bit wary Mick as I know I sent a recording of a live session to someone and it ended up on an LP (many years ago). The musicians/singers got no credit for it at all and I have been very careful not to offend anyone since.

I guess its up to Robbie.

I will continue posting away and I will give you a full itinerary of my visit as soon as it is absolutely finalised.

George

Subject: RE: Mudcatters please help
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Feb 99 - 09:05 AM

Yes, George, I understand. I guess my desire to hear a slice overrode my good judgement. But you and Frank can fill us all in on how it goes.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Mudcatters please help
From: Rois (inactive)
Date: 06 Feb 99 - 07:23 PM

Big Mick -

Thanks for the info. on Irish Music Mag.

Rois