BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT

Subject: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Bert
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 01:45 AM

That airport story thread reminded me of the time I had a short contact at the old Croydon airport. The company that I was working for had rented a hangar to layour an oil drilling platform.

The idiots obviously weren't able to handle it on the drawing board as any competant company would have done.

Well one day we had to walk through the old concourse, a beautiful building. It was all silent and bare, except for the dust. But you could feel the presence of the passengers who hadn't been there for many a year. Very eerie.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Paul Burke
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 03:43 AM

Well wrought this wall: Fate broke it.
The stronghold burst . . .
Snapped rooftrees, towers fallen,
The work of the Giants, the stonesmiths,mouldereth.
Rime scoureth gatetowers, rime on mortar.
Shattered the showershields, roofs ruined,
Age under-ate them.

The Ruin, Anglo Saxon poem.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:44 AM

Is this (click) the airport you visited, Bert? Another photo on this page (click).
Looks like a stately old place. I love old airfields.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 08:55 AM

Years back I had a job making and setting tombstones. Setting them was a nice, though hot and labor-intensive, job -- out in the quiet of cemeteries, often in the country, in good weather. You'd meet some nice people (live people) too sometimes.

My brother followed me in the job, and we were sitting around his kitchen table once talking and he asked if I had ever felt a "presence" in any of the cemeteries.

Yes, I replied, I had. I had had a feeling when working in the local Jewish cemetery that I wasn't wanted there, that I was an alien presence tolerated only because I had a job to do and that I should do it and got out!!

He took another drink and said that he'd had exactly the same feeling when he'd worked there.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 09:26 AM

I've always liked The Ruin, Paul. One of my favorite poems, in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: *daylia*
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 10:30 AM

A few weeks ago, my friends husband and her little puppy died, inside her house, in violent and very tragic circumstances. :-(

A few days later in her entranceway putting my boots on after a visit. And I saw something like I've never seen before in my life. As I straightened up, I saw that dog come running up to me as it always did -- tail wagging, big heavy awkward paws prancing, 'asking' to go out.
IT was not a solid shape -- fading in and out kinda like an 'shade', or a shadow as the clouds drift across the sun. I was a little freaked out -- didn't say anything to her or anyone else, and I must say I was glad I was already on my way out the door!

It was very strange. I'll never forget it.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 10:39 AM

I have experienced unexplained phenomena, which has no scientific or forensic explanation which for want of a better explanation could be attributed to a spirit source. As for seeing an actual ghost, I believe I did once aboard a ship, but could not confirm it until some weeks later, when learning about a death aboard the ship some years previous to the event.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 11:17 AM

Sometimes I think we are like fish in a fishbowl no better versed in what is going on around us than they are.

I had a 'crowd' experience once. In Monmouth Oregon I had left the college campus. crossing a little footbridge over a stream that was banded by narrow woods. I came out on a dead end stub of a street and as I walked up the sidewalk (pavement) I suddenly felt I was going in the wrong direction. "People" were streaming toward the college, thickly enough that I felt I should dodge about. Silent and oblivious of me but laughing and talking amongst themselves. By the time I reached the cross street they were all gone.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Partridge
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 11:54 AM

I was asleep in bed (alone) when I felt someone sit on the side of the bed, but there was no one there. It was not scarey.

I have also seen moving small lights in my bedroom - a bit like orbs - again not frightening.

Pat x

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 12:03 PM

Anyone who doesn't 'believe' in ghosts has never seen one.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 12:11 PM

lol

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: GUEST,DannyC
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 12:31 PM

This past summer I had been consumed with finding my way into a satisfactory performance version of "Little Musgrave". The murders therein were voiced repeatedly by me at the central hearth of our home.

After several weeks - in still moments within our home - my wife and I would jointly hear unexplained thuds - and once - the sound of a door closing in an adjacent room. (A quick investigation showed no open windows.) My wife reports that she occasionally caught swift moving shadows out of the corner of her eyes.

In late October, as we retired for a night's rest, we jointly heard the distinct sound of light metal-on-metal (best described as a single American dime being repeatedly dropped on a pile of dimes) just beyond our reach beyond the night stand.

The events subsided at the onset of November. (Our hope is that the whatever-it-is wintered well in Florida and plans to revisit before long.)

I will also report an occurance - during a September weekend's private feast of tunes and ballads - while singing the song at a friends' home in Illinois. Their black cat (lawd, what a cliche!) made her one-and-only appearance of the weekend by carefully pawing her way into the middle of our gathering - looked me in the eye - and commenced ta' howl (o' course, if you heard me sing, you might take ta howlin' yerself)....

These happenings are attested to by this seal:   DJC

All the Best,

Danny

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: SINSULL
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 12:47 PM

I experienced a "haunting" in a NYC apartment. A sad affair. Last time I recounted it I took a bit of abuse here so I won't bore you with the details. I have no proof and no explanation but it happened.
SINS

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 01:02 PM

My friend Jamie's mother is in a nursing home in the late stages of Alzheimer's disease. She only occasionally recognizes family members and is frequesntly semiconscious at best. Jamie also has an old dog named Heidi that's very sick and probably only has days to live.

So, while Jamie was visiting his mother a few days ago she unexpectedly asked if he still had "that dog". He was rather shocked that his mom would remember his dog, since she rarely remembers his name, and probably hadn't seen the dog in ten years. He explained to her that, yes, he still had Heidi but that she was in pretty sad shape and would probably be gone before long. His mother said something like, "Hmmm, I thought so. I saw that dog today."

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 01:06 PM

Anyone who doesn't 'believe' in ghosts has never seen one

That's very true.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Bert
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 01:12 PM

Yes, That's the place Joe, a lovely old building. It is spectacular inside with a grand staircase.

Of course there a lots of old airfields in England built during WWII but that one is special.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 02:08 PM

I have had over a half dozen 'experiences' with 'ghosts' at various times in my life, starting when I was 12 years old. The last was when I was in my late forties. As SINS said above, it's probably best not to be too vocal about it.

In my experience, only one of the 'ghosts' was something evil. The others were either friendly or neutral. I gave up caring what people thought of it after my grandfather warned me of his coming death in a dream. Since then, I know there are things others may not see or believe in, and that's fine. But I have yet to have anyone convince me that what I saw was not what I saw. I no longer care about convincing others. People can believe what they want, and that's fine with me.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 02:22 PM

So right, Peace. (Although I, frankly, don't care if I have to take abuse. That's their problem, not mine.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 02:29 PM

Every single example given here can be attributed to the power of suggestion, not some power from beyond. As much as we wish to believe that there is some sort of presence in the afterlife, it doesn't happen.

The only creature that experiences a visit with the dead are worms.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 02:31 PM

*sitting on my hands, lest I comment*

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 02:32 PM

Comment all ya want. It ain't gonna change a thing.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 02:33 PM

Ah, come on, Bill. Comment!

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 02:34 PM

That is certain. It won't change a thing. Never happened, never will.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 02:34 PM

Les Sullivan has a wonderful story he tells, relating to TOC-H, or Talbot House, in Popperinge (near Ypres in Flanders), a resting-stop for soldiers in WWI. It was established and run by a military priest, "Tubby" Clayton, who was a fascinating character. The place is still run today, partly as a museum, put you can stay there overnight in one of the rooms (I did). Tubby's old room is on the 2nd floor (3rd for Americans).

Les wrote a lovely song about the history of TOC-H and Tubby Clayton, and on his next visit to Talbot House he sang the song to the (then) steward of the house, Philippe, on the 2nd floor landing.

As Les finished singing, the door to Tubby's room slowly opened by itself, and there was a distinct aroma of pipe smoke (Tubby used to smoke a pipe, though the house nowadays is smoke-free of course)...

I, and others who herd Les' wonderful song and have visited the place, would like to think that the gratified spirit of Tubby was giving him his full attention.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 02:54 PM

well, ok, ebbie..*grin*

I JUST remembered my old shop teacher in the 8th grade...he was bald, stooped and cantankerous...and the story was that he never really got over being shell-shocked in WWI.
One day he was explaining how to "be sure of stuff" (I can't really remember how the topic came up, but he didn't always NEED a reason)

"S'pose you're walkin' around, and suddenly you see a ghost! Is that real? Speak, ghost!....Ghost don't say nothin'....Ain't no ghost!"

That is pretty close to verbatim. He lacked a certain amount of detail..*grin*...but there was a point buried in his gruff dismissal that I chewed on...and obviously never forgot.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: GUEST,Rapaire
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 02:58 PM

We, the cast and crew, were working late in the theater at Ft. Carson, Colorado preparing the set for "You Can't Take It With You." And I mean late -- it was about 2 a.m. (0200, because we were in the Army) when we looked up and saw two Military Policemen at the back of the theater watching us. We invited them to come for coffee, but they ignored us and when we looked back they were gone. THEN I realized that a) they would have been from my company (I was in the MPs at the time) and I didn't recognize them, b) they were in summer short-sleeve khakis and this was December and they should have been in class-A wool uniform, and c) their uniforms were from the late 1940s or early 1950s.

You figure it out, because we couldn't.

Oh, yeah -- we finished the set and the play was well received.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 03:16 PM

"You figure it out, because we couldn't."

You answered your own question - it was 2am and you were working late.

Group hallucination - two people were standing in the back of the room that none of you could see clearly. As soon as people started desribing what they saw, everyone started to believe it and accept the theory that it was a ghost.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Bert
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 03:22 PM

...the power of suggestion... I know Ron, I know - but it's not so much fun.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 03:25 PM

Ghost experiment homepage
(with many theories explained and referenced)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 03:39 PM

I too had an old shop teacher. Rememeber him well. He too was cantankerous. He never said anything about ghosts. However, he never told me I didn't experience what I experienced. That made him pretty wise in my book. His name was Mr Cameron.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:02 PM

"he never told me I didn't experience what I experienced"

Your experience was real, but you did not see a "ghost". You, and everyone else, uses the term "ghosts" as a crutch for things that you can't or perhaps would rather not resolve logically.   As you previously stated, you do not care what people think. That is simply another defense mechanism to prevent logical interpretation of the incident(s).

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:21 PM

OK. But I know what I saw. The problem here is that YOU don't know what I saw. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:24 PM

Neither one of us know what you saw, but I can guarantee it wasn't a ghost. Never happened, never will.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:27 PM

Maybe not, but you'll never know.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Amos
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:28 PM

Your experience was real, but you did not see a "ghost". You, and everyone else, uses the term "ghosts" as a crutch for things that you can't or perhaps would rather not resolve logically.   As you previously stated, you do not care what people think. That is simply another defense mechanism to prevent logical interpretation of the incident(s).

Well, looky here -- the term "ghost" is pretty loaded up and confused with sheets. So let us just say that stimulated mental images occur, just as they do in a moment of physical perception, or, in a moment of visionary creation; but the stimulated mental images are sometimes (a)physically accurate but noncompliant with ordinary space-time rules, such as when one sees the vision of a distant loved one who has suddenly died at that moment (which happens quite often) and (b) are often accompanied by a strong sense of message or intent for which no physical, immediate explanation can be found.

Given such moments of perception, the alternatives, broadly, are that fatigue and chemical imbalances are causing chemical and electronic firings in the closed system of the brain and CNS of the individual (a materialist-preferred interpretation which Ron defends above) OR that some sort of input external to the system is in fact occurring and "getting through" to the recipient. This could include, for example, quantum-level transmsisions between brains, or spiritual transmissions between beings. Seems to me that no Turing test exists to discriminate between these two sets.

I would suggest that there IS no definitive argument to finish this analysis on one side or the other, because the core model of how thought and communication happen at all is incomplete. But in general, I think it is not a good idea to tell people that their experiences are invalid, simply because they differ in some fundamental way with one's own.

A

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:29 PM

Hmmmm.
Why does Bill D sit on his hands to avoid commenting?
He talks with his hands?
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:29 PM

"Maybe not, but you'll never know. "

Never happened, never will.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:31 PM

OK, Ron. You know that for you. BUT, ya don't know that for me. Ain't life grand?

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:37 PM

BTW, it's cool that we disagree on this.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:37 PM

I do know that you never saw a "ghost". Never happened, never will.

Ain't life grand?

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:39 PM

Ron, you don't KNOW that. But there's no point insisting that I didn't unless you need me to agree with you, in which case, "I didn't see a ghost." But I did see something that looked like a ghost that I'll just call a ghost. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:44 PM

I don't need you to agree with me either, that isn't the point. I alrady said in my earlier post - "Your experience was real, but you did not see a "ghost". You can change the definition that most people have of the word "ghost" if you like. You did not see any physical spirit of a dead person. Never happened, never will.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:45 PM

I appreciate your opinion on that Ron. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:45 PM

I'm glad we agree!!

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:46 PM

WE DO.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:46 PM

Now, if politics was this easy, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:46 PM

"no Turing test exists to discriminate between these two sets."

yep...that's why I usually urge reports to be limited to "I seemed to see or hear or experience 'X', and I don't know why or how", rather than "It WAS a ghost, or an alien spacecraft, or me Aunt Mariah!".

(and Joe...for all you know, I type with my nose...very slowly. I may even cause the keys to depress by thought alone!)

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:47 PM

The dead stay dead, they do not return in any other form, except maybe as compost.

No one has ever or will ever see a "ghost" in the classic sense. Never happened, never will. Fact.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Bert
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:51 PM

I said I don't believe in them. But I can use my imagination.

I write songs that are not always true using that same imagination.

If you had been there EVEN YOU could have imagined them. I know they weren't really there 'cos they didn't leave any footprints in the dust.

You could have made a good movie there.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:57 PM

"No one has ever or will ever see a "ghost" in the classic sense. Never happened, never will. Fact."

I have.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 05:04 PM

You saw something that you are calling a ghost, but it was not a spirit of a dead person.   I don't want to get into a semantics arguement, it isn't worth it.   The dead do not come back.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Joybell
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 05:07 PM

I was in a country graveyard with a friend once. It was misty and the old headstones were barely visible through it. We became aware of a dull "Thump! thump!" that matched the beats of our own hearts (until ours raced ahead). It seemed to come from all around us but we managed to track it down. A tall white stone angel looked down at us from an old, old grave. We clung to each other and whimpered a bit. Then I spotted the electric pump on the path beside the grave. I can still place myself in that graveyard at the minute just before the answer came. Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 05:17 PM

it is not a good idea to tell people that their experiences are invalid (Amos)

But who would do that? They are valid, but there may be another interpretation than the one the experiencer chooses. The percept and its interpretation can be two quite different things. Some discuss here as if they had never ever seen an optical illusion, as if they had never the experience that an initial interpretation of a percept turned out to be wrong. They sound to me like: "Optical illusions are only for whimps and not for real men."

Peace (and I repeat myself) has said a very good sentence which makes a lot of sense if one reads it differently:

Anyone who doesn't 'believe' in ghosts has never seen one can be read as "If I wouldn't have believed it I wouldn't have seen it". But that's more of self-knowledge than Peace has planned to demonstrate.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 05:21 PM

By the way....I almost forgot that recent discoveries in Synesthesia are helping to explain many previously startling and mysterious experiences that had in the past gotten people labeled as deluded or lying. It may not directly deal with ghosty encounters, but fuzzy shapes under certain conditions 'could' have related causes. Still a lot to know about 'us'.

A google search on synesthesia will give you way more than you want to read. That site was only the first hit.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 05:21 PM

"Some discuss here as if they had never ever seen an optical illusion, as if they had never the experience that an initial interpretation of a percept turned out to be wrong."

I guess you were directing that at me Wolfgang. I can assure you that I have had experiences that I could not immediately explain, and they scared the crap out of me. There are still a few incidents that I have not been completely sure of the explanation, but I know that it wasn't something from the netherworld that created it. It has nothing to do with being a "real man", it is more about being analytical and using common sense.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 06:31 PM

Amos.
How would you account for a man dressed in an old style of oilskins, walking in from a passenger veranda, completely wet through, leaving wet footprints on the deck?

This was early evening, I was sober, it was a flat calm dry sunny day just before dark, and no-one was working on deck washing down with hoses? I spoke to him as he passed me but got no reply. I actually turned around and tried to catch up to him. I checked all over but could not find him, nothing could account for it. and the deck was dry a minute after he walked by me at a maximum distance of ten feet.

I never mentioned it again until I was listening to a conversation a few months later when the ship was in dry dock. Welders on the nightshift opening up an old passageway saw the same man and concerned for his safety (no lights and many holes in the deck) followed him with flashlights until he disappeared through a locked door. (they subsequently refused to work there after dark)

The man was identified by an old bosun as his brother an AB, who died of a heart attack in his cabin (yes the one the welders saw). Wearing wet old fashioned black oilskins with sou'wester hat. The route he walked back to his cabin was confirmed as through the passenger veranda and aft on the port side (the passageway was turned into cargo hold space after a fire in New York, a year after he died so it did not exist when I was aboard.) The welders were restoring the alleyway as the ship was undergoing conversion to carry containers. I knew nothing of this until hearing the welders story, and talking to the old bosun about it a week or two later.


On the same ship there were many other strange occurrences, including one sighting of a dead captain. funnily enough, I am meeting the captain who saw him this evening, we got in touch through an old shipmates website. We have not seen each other for thirty years, but he actually quit that ship and refused to ever sail on her again (it was his first trip as a master mariner) I walked around that ship by myself at night when generators and shore power was turned off and when she was shut down ready to go to scrap. I never saw another ghost, but saw many strange things on my travels through her. I loved the old ship and always had good luck with her.

I have been a member of a scientific institute for 25 years, and work with scientists on many projects. I am sceptical about strange phenomena and have proved natural causes of many optical illusions.
What I saw that evening could only be described as an apparition not of my world. aka Ghost.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 06:57 PM

"Anyone who doesn't 'believe' in ghosts has never seen one can be read as "If I wouldn't have believed it I wouldn't have seen it". But that's more of self-knowledge than Peace has planned to demonstrate."

True to your remark, Wolfgang. Or, it might be that I did see the various apparitions and you don't believe it. Cool with me either way.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 09:25 PM

Ron O, you must be the guy who wrote the headline: Life After Death Guaranteed!. Saw it on a tabloid once.

My point is that opinions are one thing, put downs are something else again. And people who are terribly sure they are right are scary to me.

I have often said that 'ghost' is a term used very loosely. Would you prefer 'potato'? One time I was at an emotional event and midway a potato appeared in the doorway but only his legs from about the calves down were visible.

:)

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 09:39 PM

you know, I guess a lot of us wonder why it is that some folks see/experience lots of these 'events' while most of us don't.
If it is in the wiring, I wonder whose is faulty; if it is 'intentional', I wonder who or what is being cute; if it is random, I wonder why it distributed so unevenly.......if there IS no clear answer, I wonder why opinionated answers are so ubiqitious.

I have wondered from all angles for years. I will continue to wonder and pay attention to all the tests, theories, reports and counter-reports, hoping that someone will get beyond "well, I sure am not gonna doubt my own rock-solid experiences". (well, Joybell did, when she found the electric pump....I wonder what she'd be saying today if she hadn't.)

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 09:44 PM

What I don't understand is why what people have seen or think they have seen or imagined they have seen can become so important to others that they get offensive about it. Hey, I saw what I saw. That makes me an idiot, a liar, a dolt or a coniving sonuvabitch. It may also mean I believe I saw what I saw regardless of what anyone else can prove or disprove. I have no intention at all of trying to convince anyone else that he or she should see what I saw. Or even believe me. I am sorry if that offends people here.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 09:45 PM

And it certainly seems to.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 10:25 PM

RE: (best described as a single American dime being repeatedly dropped on a pile of dimes)

What were their dates? (composition/metalurgy/resonance has changed)

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

If you atune yourself with Christ-the-Messiah - the spirit surrounds you./

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 10:50 PM

"My point is that opinions are one thing, put downs are something else again. And people who are terribly sure they are right are scary to me."

I once saw a magician make the Statue of Liberty disappear.   I feel "terribly sure" that it did not happen.

No one is calling anyone a "liar", you all saw what you saw. I can still "guarantee" that you did not see a spirit from the great beyond unless you can give me facts that prove otherwise. I will gladly say that I am wrong. In this case, I know that I am safe in saying that there is no such things as "ghosts" (except when you change the meaning of the word)

Opinions are indeed one thing, but to say that there are such things as "life after death" without a shred of evidence other than fanciful hearsay and conjecture is wrong. I love romance and fantasy, but lets not kid ourselves. Never happened, never will.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 10:58 PM

OK. That's your opinion. It's not mine.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: GUEST,Casper
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 11:02 PM

We will be visiting you tonite Ron.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 11:08 PM

yes, it is my opinion and while some people do not want to admit it - it is a fact!   Prove it otherwise and I will be happy to say I was wrong. It can't be done. Never happened, never will.

Don't come empty handed Casper.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 11:08 PM

sheesh...I know that there are a LOT of reasons beyond "idiot, a liar, a dolt or a coniving sonuvabitch." that explain unusual experiences.....including having actually seen something. Even if it was a mirage in the desert, it was 'seen' and nothing can change the experience. It's when the statements about the ultimate cause are tossed about loosely that things get awkward.

As far as I can read, you didn't claim anything absolute about the metaphysical status of your experience...only that you clearly had the experience(s).

As it happens, I had a VERY strange dream last night....in which my father, looking younger and more alert and aware than I remember him in the last 20 years of his life, told me a story about my childhood and how we had once had trouble skiing. He grinned at me and assured me that my current situation was not nearly as bad as 'back then'.

It just happens that I have NEVER been skiing, but the dream sure was clear and poignant...(my father died in 75). I have no idea why my brain cells conjured up that vision, and I won't speculate...(I don't 'doubt' that I was unconciously coping with the stresses of today and dealing with stuff I hate to confront openly....but *shrug*...I sure don't know how to be sure.)

Once, 20 years ago, I had a dream about a girl I knew in high school that was so scary and clear (she was having BIG problems in it) that I wrote her a letter, asking...but then chickened out and didn't send it). I couldn't have dealt with the embarrassment if she had denied anything like that ever happened and wondered why I was butting into her life with strange stories.

I once saw a streaking light in the daylight sky....but only for a few seconds...I KNOW I saw it, but I don't know what I saw, if that makes sense....and being me, I didn't postulate.

I used to sit in the school cafeteria and try to make the second hand on the clock stop or pause....I tried so hard that a couple times I 'saw' it hesitate. I wrinkled up my brow and said "hmmmm".....never mentioned this to anyone because...well, because I'm me, and wasn't sure.....but I know it seemed clear.

I just don't KNOW, and obviously, those experiences were paltry and vague compared to what some others have reported. I do not KNOW if my mindset prevents me from seeing things I should, or whether I DO see them and refuse to admit it, or whether I am just a victim of 'the luck of the draw' and didn't get the right receptors at birth, (and am just jealous because auras and ghosts and aliens avoid me!)Maybe my years of grimly studying Philosophy was my compensation for NOT having all those fascinating experiences some others report!

I honestly make no absolute claims regarding which explanation comes closest to the truth...like everyone here, I do my best to sort it out with what I have. I have some guesses, but since I can't be sure about experience and reality, all I can do is try to be as careful as I can manage about how to discuss and represent claims. That can be a useful tool, or it can be a divisive wedge when I say it wrong. I have done both.....I'll try to be careful...........

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Amos
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 11:09 PM

Wal, Ron, let's look at this fer a minute, eh? I assume from what you say that it is your firm conviction that a human being is bounded by molecules, flesh, neurons and proteins, and no more -- meaning, no non-physical element.

Obviously if that is a cut-and-dried fact in your book, then, all else follows. No part of the molecular structure is going to run around creating impressions on people at night.

But I would think you'd want to know how all the documented stories like DTAM's and Peace's which include information transfer from outside the individual's possible access are to be accounted for? It is easy to dismiss one or two as bizarre coincidences. But I wonder if you have ever looked into the literature?

Conversely if it is true that some kind of existence beyond the molecular exists which lends to physical being such unusual and irrelevant ingredients as understanding and intention, why, that opens an interesting can of worms, granted, but it also provides a model which covers more of the reported phenomena.

Like Peace, I don't mind what you decide to think, but your use of writ-in-stone words like "never" and "fact" (as you have used them in this context) are just a tad assertive to my ear, as though protesting overmuch.

Regards,

A

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: GUEST,Casper
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 11:14 PM

molecules, smolecules all you guys have it wrong. Maybe, we should pay all you guys a visit.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 11:16 PM

Amos, I will continue to use "never" and "fact" until you can prove it otherwise. Phenomena is unexplained, yet people who wish to believe in "ghosts" are quick to throw their explanation on. It is too pat and too easy. DTAM's and Peace's stories are not documented by anyone other than themselves. I do believe they saw something, but I can feel certain that it wasn't a ghost.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: frogprince
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 11:34 PM

I grew up knowing there were no such things as ghosts. I still seriously doubt that they exist, and suspect that ghost sightings are misinterpretations of some other phenomena. But I know a substantial number of intelligent, stable, former non-believers who have had their minds changed by their experiences. And, while I haven't personally seen any apparitions, I've encountered things I can't begin to rationalize or fit into my normal "logical framework. I've learned to know that there is a helluva lot I don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 11:42 PM

Look - if your "reality" is dreams....then take a triple dose of melatonin (herbal/OTC/protein-fractured-supliment) for a week.

If you have never before dreamed in color - you will now.

Real (nope) Prophetic (nope) Potential short-story (yep - keep a notepad by the bed - and the authors of "IT/452" should reflect in their rearview mirrors for writers quickly approaching their genre)

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 11:44 PM

"Prove it otherwise and I will be happy to say I was wrong."

Ron, I am not trying to prove anything to you, nor would it give me any feeling of satisfaction to hear you say you are wrong. I saw what I saw. That's all.

BillD: Please don't misunderstand what I wrote. It was not done with the intent of creating friction. I have read your posts for years. I know your standards (and your brilliance). I seldom miss anything you write because I do admire you in so many ways. I wish I could clearly explain to you why I 'know what I know'. I can't. Perhaps the closest I can come is an analogy.

When I write certain songs, some of them will take on a life of their own. Likely that is the result of synaptic functions, nerve impulses, electro-chemical events somewhere inside the brain. So too might be the things I saw (and saw itself is s deceptive term, because for two of the experiences I only 'felt' or 'sensed' a presence.

One time a small labrador dog also sensed the same thing (I'm guessing). It was in an apartment in NYC. I awoke at about 2:00 AM, disturbed by something. I looked to the middle of the room which was lit only by light coming in from outside the apartment. The dog growled. I had to turn my head to the right to see the dog (I had named him 6% and called him Six for short). Anyway, he was staring at the same place I had been staring--an empty place in the room, and his hair was standing up all along his spine and at the ruff of his neck. The dog and I (he was growling by them) followed with our 'eyes' and whatever it had been went out through the wall near the door. The dog began to settle down and so did I. I didn't feel the 'thing' meant any harm. I am smart enough--not in your league for sure, but smart enough for all that--to know that this could all be a bunch of BS. And it could. But, it isn't. Else, why post stuff that is so easy to ridicule and poke holes in? Cui bono? No one. I have no intention of ever writing a book to sell to people who enjoy these types of stories. No intention of having anything about this stuff turned into a scary movie script. Just a statement of 'fact' from me. I do not expect anyone will 'believe' me. So it's fine by me if you think I am off my rails, deluded, or simply making it all up.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 11:52 PM

Peace, I do believe you experienced things that you can't explain. My only issue is that people tend to write it off to "ghosts" when they cannot explain things. That has been the basis of folklore since the beginning - any experience that could not be explained was attributed to something supernatural or from beyond the grave. Over time we can find logical explanations and recreate these experiences.   Science has shown how low frequency sound waves can be trapped in walls and create "ghost" like apparitions and also cause hot and cold spots. Something simple like a bug or a mouse can also cause pets to act strangely and not react as we would expect.

Please believe me, I am not trying to insult you or anyone.   I am adamant about saying that there is no such things as ghosts because overwhelming evidence and common sense proves otherwise.   If science can prove me wrong, so be it. Until then I am very comfortable in saying - there is no such things as ghosts.

Now, on the other hand, let me tell you about gnomes....

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 12:03 AM

LOL

I use the term ghosts because it's convenient, not because it's a term I use. Thank you, Ron. Very kind of you to post as you did. I read you also, and I enjoy what you have to say. Even the stuff you said above in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 12:08 AM

And just to lighten the 'spirit' a bit here:

A man walked to the top of a hill to talk to God.
The man asked, "God, what's a million years to you?"
And God said "A minute."

Then the man asked:
"Well, what's a million dollars to you?"

and G0d said: "A penny"

Then the man asked:
"G0d.....can I have a penny?"

And God said:
"Sure.....In a minute."

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 12:40 AM

Actually they were documented by the shipping company and the drydock (both now defunct unfortunately) I was not the only person to have seen that particular apparition, but I did not know this at the time. She was scrapped in China and I was told by company shore staff that workers cutting her up would not work aboard her after dark

There were many instances of strange physical phenomena experienced by different people on that ship. Some occasions witnessed by several people at the same time. One delayed the ship going into drydock for four days. It was investigated by engineers; and the company that built her (Harland And Wolf Belfast) sent several experts to check her systems when the ballast pumps failed to pump out the tanks. They could not find any reason for the problem and it seemingly cured itself. You could find rational excuses for these events, but they were unable to determine the cause at the time. Many refused to sail on her, many shore staff would not work nights aboard her. the company never disciplined anyone for refusing to work or sail aboard her. I sailed on her and spent many months aboard her. That is fact!

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Bert
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 01:25 AM

...there is no such things as ghosts...OK Ron, O bloody KAY.

That's not what this thread was supposed to be about. It was for folks like you who don't believe in ghost but have had experiences where a ghost would have fitted.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Barry Finn
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 02:28 AM

Not a bunch of ghost stories BUT. My sister can't walk into a building where someone has meta violent death without knowing it. She went to look at an apt as a very late teen or an early 20 something, can't remember for sure. From what my mother says, it was a nice building & a pretty good location. The person who was to show them the place was waiting outside & as soon as my sister entered the building she freaked & said I'm not moving in here someone just died here. Someone had died by suicide just a few months prior. She's always been like this. My mother has told me of so many events prior to it's happening that, yes it's sometimes spooky. See ghosts, nope not me, neither does my sister but she does somehow know when there's been a violent death in a dwelling as she's entering it. My self, I don't care if I ever see a ghost, I've been told so many times that I'm the one that's got the 9 lives (so far I can account for 7) that I don't want to use one up by seeing one. My great grandmother was the one in the village where the others would come to, to relieve them of there curse. I guess this used to scare the hell outof most of the family because only a very few would talk about her strange ways. My older brother who was adopted as a new born & after we (my mother & sister) just met him he was whistling my great grandmother's favorite tune. When asked by my mother he don't know where he heard it or when just that he always knew it. My mother was this old women's favorite. Mom was the black sheep & her grandma always took her under her wing. I remember Rita my mom's best buddy (people like these tend to find each other & stay close if they hit it off well)she could read your leaves & if she choose to what see saw was what you'd get.
Believe it or not, some times truth is stranger than fiction.
My mother will die some time soon. When she doesn't know, could be a few days or a few years. She's 76 & is a powerhouse of energy & in very good health. If I didn't look so young for my age I'd say that she might look as young as I do. But she knows how she'll go, it'll be an accident by the fault of some one else, she settled all her affirs but she's not going before & she's not going to stop her life either.
I guess when this is what you live it's not so strange to see, hear or know some things can't be explained they are just what they are, a part of life for some, a fact of life for others & then there are those that just can't understand the the lives that are different from their own.

Barry (with 2 lives, that's about 17 more yrs, by then I'll have really have lived them all)

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 08:50 AM

Haven't read the whole thread, just jumped in when I saw Ron Olesko's name on a post and Bill D's. These are a couple of folks that I check out when they post because they are interesting and well informed. They are a couple of Mudcatters that keep me coming back.

Having said that, Ron, would you please prove the Pythagorean Theorem.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 08:57 AM

I don't believe in ghosts. I do believe what people I know and trust have told me or what I've experienced myself.

I have no idea what a "ghost" is beyond the conventional definition. I do now that I'm not going to worry about it, because like anything involving an "afterlife" we'll know for certain soon enough.



(Well, most of us. Considering what various preachers and folks of that ilk have told me about my probable destination I don't think I'll make the trip. Kinda like going to New York City or LA....)

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 09:47 AM

"Ron, would you please prove the Pythagorean Theorem."

Sorry, I don't believe in triangles.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: David C. Carter
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 09:53 AM

It was our first night in the Pyrenees,staying in the parents house of friends of ours.We went to bed,turned out the light,as you do,and down there it's Dark!The shutters were closed etc.My wife was sleeping on the right side of the bed,facing the wall,I was sitting up facing the door at the foot of the bed.Suddenly,from the side where my wife was sleeping there ran a young girl,round the foot of the bed and out through the door,which was shut.It didn't scare me as such,but I woke my wife,and she turned on the sidelight.Anyway,next morning everyone was already at the breakfast table when I came down.This is Mimi 76,Pepi 79,our friends Jean, a philosophy teacher,his wife Michelle also a proffeseur at the Sorbonne.When I explained what had happened,Mimi,in full possession of all her marbles asked how old was the girl.I said about 8/10 yrs.Pepi replied that she was 9 yrs old when she died,and was the daughter of the people who lived in the house prior to them.Jean,who doesn't believe in anything said yes,she's around the house all the time!Everyone confirmed my story.I don't know what it was I saw,or what to call it,but I saw it and if someone "knows better" than me what it was then I'm ready to listen!

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: GUEST,Don
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 10:17 AM

Until the age of 4 I would see lightening people dart quickly about outdoors. Adults couldn't see them. About 8 years later I developed migraine with the light flashes so it may be explained that way.

In my early 20's I saw a gigantic tuble of light cross the sky in just a few seconds.
In my mid 20's I and others saw globes of light pass through the brick wall of my home.
In my forties I saw and heard large craft pass overhead with an electic throbbing hum that was intimidating enough to stay put and NOT wave my arms yelling "Here I am!".

Whether there are living entities that either appear strange in our dimensionality or intellighet radiant energy is an interesting question but I would not personally call them ghosts.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 11:05 AM

I don't think that we fully understand how the brain works.   My wifes grandmother had Alzheimers and she would often talk about how she saw children dancing around her room. My father had dementia after suffering a stroke and he would talk to me of skeletons that he saw coming out of the walls. These images are very real to these people.

Psychedic drugs can also trigger similar images. (I'm sure we have a few Mudcatters that could share some of those stories!!!!)

I do think that the brain can create these realistic images, so perhaps the mechanism that triggers these images in people with Alzheimers and dementia can also be triggered in others more "naturally" - not as a result of trauma or drugs. It might explain why SOME people see these images and not others.

There are also scientific reasons for some of these items. Ultrasonic sound, magnetic fields, underground water, seismic activity - all of these can cause manifestations that are not immediately understood.   

Think about a rainbow - it is created by the way our eyes view light reflection under certain circumstances. Does it look real? Of course. Viewing a movie is a similar illusion.   Also, think of our reaction to a movie. I love good horror flicks, I enjoy being scared. Of course I realize that it isn't real, these are just actors and special effects, but my brain is looking to be "fooled" and taken in by the illusion.   When I come to expect something, it will be real, or rather realistic, to my mind.

As human beings, we are programmed to look for explanations. I have heard discussions of behavior therapy where individuals have a demand to rationalize behavior. I am sure we all know people that feel that the world is dumping solely on them. ANYTHING that happens, they assume it because of either a)a flaw they have or b)the world is out to get them.   So, when we hear a knocking at night, or perceive something we can't understand, it becomes easy to accept that there are other forces at work.

Sorry, I do not mean to get off track. I also want to stress that I do not think ANY of the stories listed hear are false. I am sure that everyone experienced the stories they are sharing. I am just not comfortable with those who will use "ghosts" in the classic sense as an explanation. It is too pat and comfortable to make an assumption without looking at other causes.

Now let me share a story of mine. I live near a graveyard that dates back to the Revolution. From my den I see tombstones.   When we first moved in, I was looking out the window one night when I noticed ONE tombstone that appeared to be lit. I could see the name lit up so that I could just about read the name from the distance. While there were hundreds of tombstones, only one was reacting this way. It lasted just a few minutes, and then faded out. The next night, it happened again, but not exactly the same time. The third night, the same thing.

It was then that I realized I was simply seeing the moonlight reflect off one tombstone that happened to be angled differently from the rest. Still, for two evenings I was wondering what this strange occurance could be. Was someone from beyond speaking out to me?

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 11:14 AM

ok, Peace...I was not even sure you pointed those comments directly at me....but I saw a bit of myself between the lines, and all that reflection just spilled over and out.

I am, frankly, honored that you say those things about me when I remember some of my more....ummm...'provocative' meanderings. ☺

and I was kinda jolted back to awareness by Bert's reminder:

"That's not what this thread was supposed to be about"

I started out with that in mind, but that sneaky, mischievous Ebbie teased me! I couldn't control myself! Some dark force from the nether world entered my head and wrested my better judgment away so that I.....uhhh...well....

anyway...carry on!

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 11:26 AM

LOL

Both you guys are gentlemen with great senses of humour. No harm done at all. BTW, do you need an exorcist?

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Scoville
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 11:43 AM

I have several intensely no-nonsense relatives who swear that they have had "supernatural" experiences (including my father, a devout atheist and skeptic). I think a lot of "ghostly" phenomena can be explained, as demonstrated by the gravestone anecdote above, but quirky but logical causes, and I've never had anything that weird happen to me. My grandmother saw all kinds of things after my grandfather died and we attributed them later to depression and undiagnosed, early-stage, Alzheimer's. I was home alone once when I was a kid and I swear I heard someone run up the basement stairs, but I told myself it was simply the cheaply-built, wooden steps popping back into place. I don't know. I sure wasn't going to go look. Likewise, I don't know for sure what my grandmother saw so, while I think that dementia is probably what was going on, I don't think it's fair of me to insist that she didn't see any of it. I've also occasionally had sleep paralysis and, while it's creepy as heck, I knew what was happening. So, I guess I don't believe in ghosts, really, but I don't absolutely not believe, either.

A friend of ours died of ovarian cancer a couple of years ago. She promised she'd haunt us but she hasn't and we're sort of disappointed. ;-)       I was sort of hoping my cat would make one last visit, too, but I think she was probably ready to go and she hasn't been back.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 11:53 AM

"Think about a rainbow - it is created by the way our eyes view light reflection under certain circumstances. Does it look real? Of course."

It's so real that a camera can see it. It's as real as any other light that impinges on our retina. It's as real as the shimmer of a butterfly's wings, though it's created by refraction (not reflection), rather than interference.

By the way, accepting for the moment that people have some kind of spirit that can move about and look like them after they are dead, how come their clothes have spirits too? Or if it's their self- image you're seeing, how come we can only project the image we want to (cf Rabbi Burns) AFTER we're dead?

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Bert
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 12:03 PM

..how come their clothes have spirits too?.. LOL Guest.

Now I'm imagining a load of ghosts walking around starkers! Enough to scare any one. Make a good movie though.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 12:14 PM

No Ron, it was the moon reflecting off a tombstone, not an attempt by a spirit to communicate with you; neither do i believe that the person I spoke to aboard the ship was trying to communicate with me.
I worked on that ship several times over six years during which tme I saw many strange things, but never described anything else as a ghost.

What I saw was solid, human form, with discernible features and left physical evidence of it's passing on the deck; but evidence which disappeared within seconds. I was one of several different people who had encountered the same person/spirit in the same locations over a period of twenty years. Very few people spoke of their experiences until the welders in the dry dock incident. The bosun I spoke too had seen it himself twice, and was present when his brother had died aboard ship. He complained of feeling ill and was told to go and lie down. Ten minutes later the bosun went to see him and found his brother dead from an apparent heart attack; still dressed exactly as I saw him in wet (heavy rain)old fashioned black oilskins and Sou'wester. This guy had been buried at sea in the exact location I encountered his spirit; and at the same time of day he had died. I had no prior knowledge of this event, and had never been exposed to stories about a ghost aboard the ship.

Coincidence? hallucination? natural? Someone playing a trick? No sir it was none of the above, I investigated any possible trace of water inside and outside the accommodation, wooden decks would have shown it, no-one could have manually dried the source that quickly.

I once saw lights at sea that looked like a ships light crossing ahead of me. As we continued on course, it then appeared to be rising and that the ship was not a ship but a helicopter turning towards me at about 500 to 1000 feet. Red sidelight and white light visible, target on radar at same azimuth, clear sky calm sea, no other lights. Turned out to be the planet Venus with a tiny cumulus cloud (the only cloud in the sky) reflecting the red from the rising sun still below the horizon; the radar target was a fishing buoy with a radar reflector on it. But combined it had fooled three very experienced seafarers into thinking it was man made for over an hour.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 12:24 PM

(Peace...no, I get plenty of exorcise just running up % down stairs ☺)

(you KNOW an exorcist who takes hopeless cases?)

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 01:18 PM

"Coincidence? hallucination? natural? Someone playing a trick? No sir it was none of the above"

Sorry, but you can't say that for sure since an explanation has not been found. It could be any of the above.

It is unexplained, but that doesn't mean you saw a "ghost". You certainly experienced something.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Cobble
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 02:50 PM

English word for Spirit, and because the word ghost has so changed and narrowed
in meaning, and is now associated with "spooks," it is better not to use it, ...

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Scoville
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 03:21 PM

Houston is refurbishing the old Jefferson Davis Hospital (built 1924) into here for you architecture buffs.

This was a charity hospital allegedly built on a Civil War-era graveyard. A second Jeff Davis was opened in 1936 but was the target of a scandal raised in the early 1960's by Dutch-born author Jan de Hartog (a Houston resident) because of its hideous conditions. It was torn down a few years ago. At any rate, Jeff Davis 1924 has a long history of reputed ghostly activity so I can't wait to see what pops up when people move in. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Scoville
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 03:24 PM

Crapola--that didn't work. THey're turning JD into apartments. The building has been in a miserable state of disrepair for decades and the city has had a hard time keeping ghosthunters out (people have been attacked by squatters hiding out in the building).

I was pretty sure the city was going to give up and tear it down but I guess they won't afer all. Cool.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: GUEST,DannyC
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 03:47 PM

I hesitate to relate the following happenings due to their "begosh and begorrah" elements, but I will waive better judgement for the story's sake:

It occurred during an extended 1997 visit to a long-time music friend, the bosca-playing Stationmaster of the Ballymote Railway Station, Co Sligo. To grant my friend and family some relief from my presence, I accepted an invitation to briefly lodge with my friend's father (Frank) in nearby Ballina, Co Mayo.

One bright summer's day, Frank led me thru a wandering tour of the hungry bog country west of Ballina towards Belmullet. . The man is a prolific storyteller - making a delight of our rambling.

We made our progress west along an inland road, but made our way back by a coast road, stopping for a stretch at Céide Fields where some weather quickly blew in.   With the change we resolved to make straight for Ballina.

On the road home, the weather did offer a brief respite when I saw a sign - something like:      

<< Kilcommeian 2km

I asked, "Frank, isn't that my name in Irish?"   "Sure, it would be."
"Would you mind if we went down that road?" "There's nothing up that boreen but horseshite and muck." "We'll see where it leads anyway."

Momentarily we skirted past Killala Bay where Frank pointed: "There's the Church - Cummins Church with the roof gone."   The village itself seemed to be sparsely inhabited with many abandoned roofless cottages.

"I'll get a look around" "Don't go in that graveyard, Danny - there's no need for that."

"I'll make it a quick look around." While Frank uttered various fretful prayers near the gate, the wind and rain blew in again forcing a dash to the Cortina.

Our cloud was in a hurry. The sun emerged now at our back. That's when the show started. A miniature rainbow appeared linking two hillocks in the bank above the bay. The sun strengthened and the twin of the rainbow came into view.   Frank started whispering prayers. As for myself, I am not of that country and I had never seen such an intimate glow.   Glorious!

The show eased . Frank and I went down to have a look at the terminal points where the rainbows had rested.   To the left lay Saint Cumins Holy Well complete with instructions on how to coax a blessing from the well. (Three Paters, walk 'round three times, etc.)   On the right stood a Mass Rock - that's what we made of it - by virtue of the Pascal symbol carved into its face.

I suppose I had become an "insider" as far as Frank was concerned - his first tale on the course home started with: "Danny, do you know I once spoke to a man who had been dead for two years. I was crossing the road one morning…"

Regards,   Danny Cummins

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 05:42 PM

In 1957, my grandmother Clara died at our house. It was summer and the windows were open. That night, my great-great aunt Tillie said, she awakened around 1 or 2 a.m. and in the moon-light washed backyard was my grandmaother Clara.

Grandma said, "Tillie, is everything alright?"
"Yes, Clara," my g-g aunt replied.
"Well, then, I won't be back."

Could have been my aunt's imagination (she was in her late 70s or early at the time). Might not have been. I do know that she simply didn't lie and that she believed she saw what she saw until she died ten years later.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 05:52 PM

When I moved into this house in Maine I knew that the previous owners had recently lost their son. Every morning when I came into the kitchen three drawers were open. I carefully closed them at night and in the morning they were open. I thought vibrations, off center floor, etc.
Then one night I was watching TV in the Sun Room, just off the kitchen. The bottom drawer opened silently. I watched amazed. The second drawer opened. And then the third. No sound. Finally the door under the kitchen sink swung open and I was ready to run. Out stepped Freddie the Cat with a grin and walked away.

Subject: RE: BS: 100
From: Peace
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 05:54 PM

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 06:09 PM

I don't believe in cats named Freddie. You can't prove that is real name, you can't talk to him. You may think he is Freddie, I am quite sure that in your mind that is so. But you have no proof........

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 06:39 PM

Fred exists. He doesn't exist quite so much as Ed, but he nevertheless exists, and he is cat.

Mary could mail you some cat hair or something else, should you require proof beyond my testimony. There are Fred relics.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Alba
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 11:40 PM

I believe in Fred.
I believe in Fred because I believe what Sins and Jerri tell me.
I have never seen Fred but I believe he exsists.:)
No cat hair proof in the mail required thank you as I have enough of it here (or should that read as 'hair') to stuff a Sofa.
Your word is good enough for me Sinns, as is yours Jerri **bg**


Do I believe I continue to see and have seen and been among entities?...absolutely, 100% no doubt about it.
Nothing will persuade me otherwise.
It does not phase or disturb me and I accept that there are many things in this world that have no explanation. I simply accept the exsistence of entities among us as a fact. My fact.
It also makes no difference to me what sceptics say either.
I respect their view, I even understand their views on the 'matter' (sorry no pun intented)
It does not, however, cause me to re-examine my feelings on the subject, never has, never will. In fact the views of sceptics only serves to reinforce what I already know, from where I see it, to be so.
Neither side of the issue can prove anything to each other and that is fine by me as I feel no need or inclination to produce proof.


My Best to all as always
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 12:01 AM

RE: Bill D -

School clocks are sychronized on a regular interval (generally just before the hour) to stop and allow all the other time-pieces in the school-wide-kingdon - to sychornize also.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Sorry to bust your kinesthetic bubble - but it is true - even into 21st Century school houses.....things seldom change in schools.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Bert
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 02:26 AM

Yer right Alba (Where did you get that name by the way? That's the name of the aluminum smelter in Bahrain) I believe in Fred, that's the name of my old Yamaha guitar.

I also belive in SINS and Jeri, but don't let my wife know that.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 09:42 AM

This all reminds of the Monty Python scene in the Holy Grail. They were trying to prove that a woman was a witch.

After saying that she looks like a witch so she must be one, they needed some more sufficient proof. The knight asked the villagers some questions:

Question - What do we do with witches? Answer - burn them.

Question -What else burns? Answer - wood
conclusion - witches burn because they are made of wood.

Question - How do we tell if she is made of wood? Answer, after deciding they could not build a bridge out of her - wood floats so lets see if she floats.
But wait - ducks also float. Conclusion - if she weighs the same as a duck, she has to be a witch.

A lopsided scale proves the point and everyone agrees.

Frankly, this is similar logic and degree of experimination used by the "skeptics" that believe in ghosts. I call them skeptics because they will dismiss fact to justify their conclusion.

There is plenty of evidence to prove otherwise, but this is always dismissed.   

Last night, the Discovery Channel presented a program on the Loch Ness monster. It was shown how the eye really does a bad job in seeing - the brain actually does all the work. The brain can interpret images the way it wishes. Preconceived notions will give them the results they are looking for.

I realize skeptics will continue to believe in the existence of spirits as a way of justifying experiences that they cannot explain. There have been wonderful stories shared here, and I am sure each one actually occured. There is no evidence to point to the existence of "spirits from beyond", just a number of incidents that can't be explained. To draw a conclusion is wrong.

Never happened, never will.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Cobble
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 11:36 AM

Ron I think you protesteth too much. I WONDER WHY?

And dont throw science at me because that wont wash.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 11:52 AM

I'm not protesting, I'm pointing things out.

I have no idea what your last sentence was supposed to mean Cobble.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 12:28 PM

You are right Ron, I must have hallucinated an alien being and the water must have been zapped or beamed up with the alien. I never thought of that when I spoke to it....

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 12:37 PM

Sometimes I suspect that if we ALL suddenly decided that we agree with those who think that we are wholly and solely material beings they would start arguing that there must be something more. :)

Strangely enough, I except people like Bill D from that premise- I still think that they are mistaken, mind you - but they HAVE given it thought. And people like that, I think, would be mightily pleased to discover otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 01:09 PM

Glad to help Dave!

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 01:30 PM

Should anyone need proof of Freddie's existence, PM me your address and I will snail mail the contents of his litter box.

He is actually Fred II. His namesake is written up in the veterinary annals of NYC as the cat thrown out the most clinics in one year. Nasty Son Of A Bitch but he was my Fred - I have the scars to prove it and his litter box is long gone.

Poor Fred spent years darting out the apartment door hoping to make it to freedom. The night before he went to that Great Kitty Litter in the Sky, I took him outside where he filled a hated neighbor's garden with diarrhea and then proceeded to hunt for imaginary birds. I swear to you - he found one in the ground cover and was as startled as the bird. Fred dropped it and off it took. Next day, Fred was gone and the following morning I found a dead bird at the back door. That never happened before or since and I choose to believe that it was a token of love and respect from my friend.

Now Ron I know peolpe can't come back from the dead but what about cats?

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 01:54 PM

Of cats can come back. Everyone knows that they have 9 lives! The gnomes remarked about that just this morning when we had breakfast with the troll that lives under the bridge.

Seriously, before anyone takes offense, I just want to stress that I DO believe that ALL the experiences mentioned in this thread happened. Even Daves.   I just do not believe in chalking up things we can't explain to "spirits". With enough study and tests, just about everything can be traced to a reason.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 01:57 PM

Nothing would give me greater peace of mind than to know what made the lamps move in my bedroom that night.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 02:03 PM

I am restraining myself from offering theories on what could make lamps move in a bedroom at night.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Windsinger
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 05:33 PM

I choose to believe that it was a token of love and respect from my friend

Sinsull,

True story. When the family cat of 12 years was put down in June, it was done without my knowledge, without my consent, and in fact when I was staying 120 miles away. This bombshell got dropped on me as I walked in the door from work that evening.

I really loved that animal.

Stunned stupid that I didn't even get to say goodbye -- and consequently too numb to be angry yet at the callousness of how it was handled by the decision-makers -- I dialed up the boyfriend at work, wandered out onto the balcony and sat on the rooftop.

After a few minutes of talking and moping, I happened to look down.

A freshly killed mouse was laying next to my feet.

It had NOT been there when I sat down.

(Living or ethereal, cats sure do have weird thoughts on what constitutes a gift of love.)

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: billybob
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 07:11 AM

I was staying at Shepperton Manor, a bed and breakfast guest house, some years ago.This is a tudor house and near Hampton Court.The first night I was there the thermometer on my alarm clock went from 75 degrees to 50 very rapidly, yet the radiators were still hot.I turned off the bedside light and after a few minutes felt someone sit on the side of the bed.It was a horrible feeling and lasted for some minutes.The next morning at breakfast another guest asked the housekeeper if the house was haunted, she replied"why have you seen her?" During the week that followed, the bathroom light was turned on and off and another guest felt a push as she got into the bath and went under the water.
When my children were quite small we often stayed weekends on a friends converted Lifeboat on the river Medway.One morning they asked us who the men were that they had seen sitting in the cabin the night before , they described them in old fashioned yellow oilskins like lifeboat men would have worn.The lifeboat had been in service on the Isle of Anglesea in 1904. Some years later a friend was staying on the boat, as he walked into the cabin he was so shaken to see a man in oilskins, his reaction was to punch out , his fist went through the man and onto the bulkhead.
Ghosts? I don't know?

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 11:26 AM

Alba- I'm happy to see you using the term 'entity'. They tell me that's what they prefer to be called!

And what about poltergeists? Those mischievous little buggers that like to throw things around, rattle beds, roll wheelchairs down hallways. Things like this happened in a place I stayed in Tuscon.

I have a friend that loves rock and roll. He plays music very loud and moved into a house down in Iowa. He was playing his music when suddenly his albums started flying around the room at him. He watched some of them get broken right before his eyes. He was not tripping but what? Vibrations from the loud music made his albums drift? Ha!

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: LadyJean
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 11:34 PM

Right after my mother died, I was working on a database for Costume Con 11 at a friend's house. I burned a lot of midnight oil on that project. Which wasn't a problem. I was grieving. I couldn't sleep anyway.
The house was built in 1900. Now and again, I used to see a woman dressed in the style of about 1910, including a Queen Mary hat. I figured she was a dress dummy, since my friend was a costumer. When the "dress dummy" moved, I figured I was halucinating, which I do, when I haven't slept for a while. I gather it's pretty common. So, I went home and took a benadryl.
Some years later, I was talking with another woman who had worked in the house, who claimed she'd met a woman in the hall who had vanished suddenly. She described what the woman was wearing, including "A hat with a crown and no brim", a Queen Mary hat! We'd never met before, and I'd never told her what I saw. But we'd met the same lady. Of course I'm going to have a hard time being scared of someone who wears a Queen Mary hat.