Origins: Champion he was a Dandy

Subject: Champion he was a Dandy
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 03:05 PM

It has tonight been put to me that this song is a political allegory - any by extension one that an Englishman might wisely avoid.

Thoughts?

Subject: RE: Champion he was a Dandy
From: MartinRyan
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 04:29 PM

It's a dogfight....!

Regards

Subject: RE: Champion he was a Dandy
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 04:41 PM

About a bulldog and a BLACK AND TAN terrier....

Subject: RE: Champion he was a Dandy
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 04:50 PM

My first reaction would be either that someone has been winding you up, or that someone has noticed the term "black and tan" and automatically assumed (since it occurs in a song that also features people with Irish names) that it must be a political reference.

It seems pretty unlikely that it's anything more than a straightforward song about a dog-fight; perhaps a minor music hall piece (it has turned up in America and the North East of England; there may be examples from Ireland, but I don't know of any. Martin Ryan may). Of course there's always a faint possibility that there's more to it than that, but there would need to be some sort of evidence beyond a single statement from a single person; otherwise there is no way of knowing that the "allegory" exists outside that person's imagination.

Was the person concerned someone who strikes you as tending to know what he or she is talking about when it comes to traditional song and the like? A lot of people do come out with the most extraordinary nonsense on that subject, as I'm sure you know.

Subject: RE: Champion he was a Dandy
From: MartinRyan
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 04:57 AM

I first heard it in the '70's, in Ireland. It was quite possibly the Bob Davenport version mentioned in another thread. I don't know of earlier Irsh occurrences - but will try to check.

Regardes

p.s. As regards the "political" bone - note that on this occasion the Black and Tan won!

Subject: RE: Champion he was a Dandy
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 10:42 AM

Well, those who put it to me - one was from Wexford and the other Donegal. And both seemed mighty put out at the thought of an Englishman singing it at a St Patrick's night bash, as was under discussion....

Subject: ADD: Champion He Was a Dandy
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 02:27 PM

This song appears on Volume 18 of the Topic Voice of the People CD series, To Catch a Fine Buck Was My Delight. The singer is Jack Elliott, recorded in Birtley, County Durham, in the early or Mid-1960's - this one recording is the only mention of the song in the Roud Index.

Champion He Was a Dandy

Oh, my name it is Michael McCarthy
And I come from a place of renown.
I'd had a bet with old Timothy O'Flaherty,
That my bulldog would wallop the town.

Now, he told me of one Terence Murphy,
Who lived away out in the bog,
That kept an old black-and tan terrier,
That would murder my twenty pound dog.

Chorus:
Oh, a champion he was a dandy
Till Murphy, the dirty old hog,
Came along with his black-and-tan terrier
And he murdered my twenty-pound dog.

Now, I led out my bold twenty pounder
He looked just as good as a king.
How he eyed that black and tan terrier
As they both sashayed right round the ring.

Now, they fought for an hour and a quarter.
It was away out in the bog.
The terrier he took all the laurels
And a corpse lay my twenty-pound dog.

Chorus

Now, I swore I'd have satisfaction
I offed with my coat and my hat
I made a race for the whole Murphy faction
From big Terence down to little Pat.

Then I made a race for the terrier
And I kicked him way out in the bog,
And all the way home I swore vengeance
Sweet vengeance for my twenty pound dog.

Chorus

---

There is a recording of part of the song at Voices from the Dust Bowl at the Library of Congress, sung by the postmaster at Visalia, California.

---

For comparison, here's how the lyrics were posted in another thread:

Thread #18609   Message #350851
Posted By: GUEST,bigJ
28-Feb-00 - 04:13 PM
Thread Name: Req: Champion/o'tooles black and tan terrier has b
Subject: Lyr Add: CHAMPION HE WAS A DANDY

With compliments:-

Champion He Was a Dandy
(As sung by Bob Davenport with the Marsden Rattlers on the 1971 LP on the Trailer label LER 3008)

Me name it is Michael McCarthy, I come from the County of Down,
I'd a bet with one Michael O'Flaherty that me bulldog could murder the town.

I'd heard of one bold Terence Murphy, he lived away out in the bog,
He kept an old black and tan terrier and he swore it could murder me dog.

Chorus
Ohhhhhhh - Champion he was a dandy, 'til Murphy the dirty old hog,
Came along with his black and tan terrier and he murdered me twenty pound dog.

I set off my bold twenty pounder, he looked just as fit as a king,
He sized up the black and tan terrier, as they both chassee'd right round the ring.

They fought for one hour and a quarter, 'till champion slipped in the bog,
Then in stepped the black and tan terrier and a corpse lay me twenty pound dog.

Chorus

I swore that I'd have satisfaction, so I offered me coat and me hat,
And I walloped that whole Murphy faction, from big Terence down to little Pat.

Then I made a bee-line for the terrier, and I kicked it way out in the bog,
And all the way home I thought, Michael, there's revenge for your twenty pound dog.

Chorus

Subject: RE: Origins: Champion he was a Dandy
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 08:50 AM

Thank you Joe, the latter is the version I have. I (partly) learned it in Cheshire in England in about 1975 and I can't remember the names of the singers, although I can picture them. They were young revivalists, not source singers. As far as know they never became famous.

So the general concensus is that it is not a troubles song, so an Englishman can sing it with impunity (except as far as animal rights protesters are concerned)?

Subject: RE: Origins: Champion he was a Dandy
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 01:24 PM

Nick fenwick used to sing a nice version of this. Is Nick still around?

Subject: RE: Origins: Champion he was a Dandy
From: melodeonboy
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 05:42 PM

Thanks for setting me right, lads. All these years I thought Champion was the wonder horse and now I find out he's a dog!

Subject: RE: Origins: Champion he was a Dandy
From: Mo the caller
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 11:50 AM

I came across this old thread from a link on my new thread about this song

Richard, as it was an Irishman who said this it seems to me that the relevant question might not be "origins?" (what did it mean?) but "what does it mean to the people who hear or sing it now". I could understand that it could be sung by Irishmen as taking revenge on an occupying force (the Black and Tans). It seems slightly less offensive sung that way than about the plain bestiality of dog-fighting.
A dance band I sometimes call with plays various tunes from both sides of the Irish question, but have certain parts of Liverpool where they think twice.

So, Malcolm, the question "what does it mean?" is not so straight forward. On the thread about the song you'll never get to heaven Azizi puts forward a meaning for the phrase "aint gonna grieve my Lord" that to my mind is obviously wrong, then says "And maybe your meaning and my meaning and propably other meanings are right depending on who sung that song and when the song was sung." I think she is right in that.

Subject: RE: Origins: Champion he was a Dandy
From: MartinRyan
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 01:30 PM

I repeat... the bloody Black and Tan won!

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Champion he was a Dandy
From: Mo the caller
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 02:27 PM

Didn't come out of it too well after McCarthy's revenge though.

Words have overtones based on past experience, literary quotations, etc. etc. etc.
So to the Irishmen Richard talked to, whatever the song originally meant it had an echo of Black and Tans harrassing Irishmen.

Subject: RE: Origins: Champion he was a Dandy
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 08:28 PM

And I would repeat my suggestion that that was probably an entirely imaginary "meaning" recently imposed on a perfectly straightforward song by people who didn't know what they were talking about, but who made unwarranted assumptions based purely on the colour of one of the dogs and an assumption that it "must" be a Irish song with a hidden subtext. The "happy guessers", as the Opies called them, are still at work. They are at liberty to believe anything they like, however unlikely (and this is very unlikely indeed); but not to present it as fact.

The song may be Irish, of course; but there seems to be no record of it in Ireland prior to the spread of Jack Elliott's version (currently on its own at number 12934 in the Roud Folk Song Index, but see below) via the folk clubs and Bob Davenport's recording of it. Until or unless evidence to the contrary comes to light, my money is still on a music hall origin, whether British or Irish; and I would be astonished if there were anything more to it than that.

Roud 3495 ('Twenty-Pound Dog') also includes a print example of Elliott's version, and three American sets collected in the early 1940s. There is also an unclassified American example recorded in 1937 ('The Twenty Pound Bulldog'; the earliest date we have so far for the song) listed at the Library of Congress (see link above). These references will need to be pulled together under a single heading at some point.

Subject: RE: Origins: Champion he was a Dandy
From: MartinRyan
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 04:14 AM

Thanks for that, Malcolm. I'm curious to see just how old it is.

Incidenttall: the only tune I've heard used is that commonly known, I think, as "The Cobbler" - which does have vaudeville origins, if I remember aright.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Champion he was a Dandy
From: Mo the caller
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 08:29 AM

It was sung on Monday to the tune used for
Bound for Botany Bay

Subject: RE: Origins: Champion he was a Dandy
From: MartinRyan
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 03:31 PM

... which is, methinks, the same tune, alright.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Champion he was a Dandy
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 07:49 PM

Black and tan terriers are the group including the Manchester, Lakeland, and Welsh terriers. The Patterdale generally has a lot of black. Black and tans are an old breed, used as ratters and in hunting rabbits- http://www.thebreedsofdogs.com/Manchester_Terrier.htm
Manchester

On the small side of the breed (7 vs. 12-14 lbs.) we have a terrier which is registered with the AKC as a Toy Fox Terrier, different from the English Toy terrier ('Black & Tan') in that it has white as well as the dark colors. Other breeds have been added to the stock.

Fell terrier is another old name for the group.

Subject: RE: Origins: Champion he was a Dandy
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 04:59 PM

Dandy,1.a sloop like vessel with jigger mast abaft.
2.a foppish silly fellow.
poor old champion no wonder he lost the fight if he was a boat.
not much of a song,in my opinion.

Subject: RE: Origins: Champion he was a Dandy
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 05:36 PM

Cap'n, git yerself a better dictionary.

2, slang or colloq., Anything superlatively fine, neat or dainty, esp. in phr. the dandy, 'the correct thing, 'the ticket.'
1784, G. Colman in song.
Oxford English Dictionary

Subject: RE: Origins: Champion he was a Dandy
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 06:12 PM

Mr Connelly's spoken introduction to the 1937 LOC recording states that he hadn't sung the song "maybe in twenty years", which would take us back to around the Great War period; maybe to the late 19th century. No reason so far to think it any older than that.

Subject: RE: Origins: Champion he was a Dandy
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 05:28 AM

Malcolm if the song was late nineteenth century,this bears your point out,as the black and tans were not in existence then,in fact were not in existence until after the easter rising[1916],possibly after that ,at a guess I would say 1920.,Personally I think Malcolm is right.
Q,My dictionary is Chambers,More comprehensive than the Oxford,and in my opinion better.

Subject: RE: Origins: Champion he was a Dandy
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 12:01 PM

The 16plus volumes of the Oxford English Dictionary are the standard no other can match. Available also in a compact format which requires a magnifying glass.
Chambers put out a good encyclopaedia a hundred or so years ago, but all of them have problems now because the public no longer buys them.

Subject: RE: Origins: Champion he was a Dandy
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 12:48 PM

I disagree.
however,the oxford dictionary of which I have a copy,does mention a dandy as being a sloop with special rig.,so stop being a pedantic whatsit.

Subject: RE: Origins: Champion he was a Dandy
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 01:21 PM

Its a political allegory. All bout the power struggle in the tory party

Mrs Thatcher is the bulldog - representing churcillian values.

Cameron is the black and tan terrier - the wishy washy contemporary values that have unseated her and her ilk.

Subject: RE: Origins: Champion he was a Dandy
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 01:51 PM

Only pointing out that your definitions left out the one pertinent to the song.

"Champion He Was a Dandy" reminded me of the Tyneside song, "Cappy; or the Pitman's Dog," which has the chorus:

Weel bred Cappy, famous au'd Cappy,
Cappy's the Dog, Tallio, tallio.
He is described:

His tail pitcher-handled, his colour jet black,
Just a foot and a half was the length of his back,
His legs seven inches frev shoulders to paws,
And his lugs like two dockins hung ower his jaws.

For huntin' of vermin, reet clever was he,
And the house frev a' robbers his bark wad keep free;
Cou'd byeth fetch and carry, - cou'd sit on a stuil,
Or, when frisky, wad hunt water rats in a pull.

From "Allan's Tyneside Songs" (1972 ed.); first printed in "The Budget," 1816.