songs dealing with 'sense of place'

Subject: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 05:36 PM

Hey y'all,
I've been perusing this website for a few days now and am blown away by its comprehensiveness! I'm very glad I stumbled upon this resource, so figured I'd jump right into using it. I've been fascinated recently with cultural similarities between the Deep South and Ireland - not only in the structure and aesthetics of music, but in the values expressed in it. So anyway, I've started to explore the treatment of place in Irish and Southern traditional lyrics, citing their commonalities and differences. Does anybody have any particular favorite Southern and Irish songs/ballads that might fit the bill as particularly "place-oriented?"

Thanks

Lee

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 05:55 PM

"Swannee, how I love ya,
How I love ya,
My dear old Swannee!"

Or Old Folks at Home.

Is that the kind of thing you mean?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 06:00 PM

Yeah, it definitely is. I guess to be more specific, I'm looking at different themes that surface within description of place (i.e. city vs. country "A Stor Mo Chroi," love in the terms of place "She's a Flower from the Fields of Alabama," exile, longing for death in place, etc.). I'm just looking at how these themes are common to Ireland and the South/Appalachia.

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 06:05 PM

Please give yourself a name, guest, so we can tell you from all of the other guests. Even if you can't sign in for whatever reason, it helps a great deal to know who we're talking to.

This is a wonderful topic, because so many of the songs from Ireland have taken root in Appalachia and other parts of the U.S. Where are you situated as you conduct your research? Are you in or near one or the other of these places?

A song that speaks specifically of Ireland isn't going to remain unchanged if it moves and serves to represent a new place. The folk process being what it is, you will find a lot of siblings and first and second cousins are here in America.

Good luck, and I'll enjoy reading people's suggestions, and as the discussion continues I'll probably think of a few myself. I know my father was interested in the Jack Tales that made this journey you're asking about. You'll also encounter regional stories that may have similarities (like some Trickster stories) but are unrelated, due to the overarching figure of the Trickster being common in most cultures in some form or other.

Stilly River Sage

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 06:05 PM

Lee, it's a good idea to use an identifying name in the "From" box if you prefer not to join. People will soon gain a sense of your interests and look for your posts-- wanting to be able to distinguish between you and many other nameless guests who may or may not have any interest in music at all. Also, membership is free and spamless, and you never know when someone may see a song that might interest you and send you a PM instead of finding this old thread, sometime down the road.

Welcome to Mudcat!

"Yer among yer own kind, now."

~Susan

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: Lee III
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 06:15 PM

Hey again y'all and thanks for the welcoming words. To answer your question, Stilly, I'm in my hometown of Birmingham, AL right this second for Easter. However, I'm trying to compile a list of songs for a paper I'm writing for a class at NYU, where I'm a Junior undergrad. Unfortunately, I don't have time to go out hunting for songs in the next couple weeks, but while I'm South this summer I certainly plan to.
Again, it's great to be on board, and hope to hear more from y'all.

Lee

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 06:26 PM

Yellow Rose of Texas?

Carolina Moon?


And welcome aboard!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: Lee III
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 06:41 PM

Thanks, brother. Good to be here amongst like-minded folks!

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 06:44 PM

Yellow Rose of Texas is home grown in Texas, from what I hear in historic circles here in Texas.

I have a couple of acquaintances from my days as a National Park Service ranger who do or did work for the NPS in their capacity as folksingers and researchers. One of them is in New York City, and several mudcatters know her--Linda Russell. She lives up near Columbia, I think, and still performs around NYC. I'll see if I can find her web site, I know I've posted it here before. Linda performed a lot of early American songs and usually spoke about their history and origins. She has several albums out and might be good to talk to.

The other is Rita Cantu, who recorded songs when she was working and researching in Great Smoky Mountains NP. I met her the year I worked at Sugarlands, near Gatlinburg. I just found her album I've Grown to Love this Land and see that it has extensive liner notes and words. She recorded that in Tennessee in 1978, and says this is a combination of traditional and original songs. Last I heard Rita is out in California or the desert southwest again, but if she has other albums they may have similar information and liner notes.

Good luck!

SRS

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 06:45 PM

Maybe the Yellow Rose tune came across the water?

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 07:46 PM

Howdy, Lee. Presumably you've seen Siskin's thread announcing his new Ulster/Appalachia site. In case you haven't, it ought to be right up your alley.
I'd like to point out that both the South and Ireland were the subjects of nostalgic sentimental American "songs of place" back in the parlour song era (circa 1890, say). Many of these songs could nowadays be considered trad: "I Will Take You Back Kathleen", "Sweet Sunny South"; "Dixie", "Tipperary".

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 12:57 AM

Take Me Back to that Red Clay Country
My Home's Across the Blue Ridge Mountains (also sung as "Smoky Mountains")
The Good Old State of Maine

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: freda underhill
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 01:12 AM

Galway Bay..

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: Barry Finn
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 01:31 AM

Mississippi You're On My Mind
West Virginia (You're My Home)

Barry

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 01:53 AM

Wasn't the tune for Yellow Rose of Texas originally Eileen Aroon? I suppose it is possible it could have been the other way.

One song I think gives a great sense of place is Phil and June Colclough's "Song for Ireland".

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 08:26 AM

My old Kentucky Home (Foster), Green Rolling Hills of WV (Phillips)

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: Janie
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 09:55 AM

"The Girl I left in Sunny Tennessee"

"Every Bush and Tree"

A bunch of Carter Family tunes such as "I'm Going to the West" or "Sweet Sunny South,"

Not trad, but "In My Tennessee Mountain Home" (Parton), "Someone's Always Leaving Here" (Lynn Anderson)

"Ragged but Right" (some versions)

And welcome the 'Cat!

Janie

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: open mike
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 10:07 AM

Welcome, Lee (3) and good luck in your studies.
not situated in the place you mention, (Ireland, South),
but it could be-
Laurie Lewis from California sings "Who Will Watch the Home Place"
which appears to be a reaction to the death of her grandfather.
The chorus goes:
Who will watch the home place,
Whoe will guard my heart's dear space,
and who will fill me emptry place
when i am gone from here.

very "Place" oriented..

Kate Wolf (another CA songwriter)
also wrote many ballads spotlighting regional locations..
one that comes to mind is based on a conversation between
a lilac bush and an apple tree which are in an old abandoned
homestead.

Laurel

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 10:18 AM

Stilly River Sage:

I get some overtones in your posts about Yellow Rose that make me think you misread Lee's first post. The request is not about "transported and changed" songs, but rather similarities in approach. Yellow Rose can fit nicely even if (and I don't doubt it) it is purely Texas grown.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 01:30 PM

'Tis pretty to be in Ballinderry

That's a song with a fine sense of place.

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: Lee III
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 02:15 PM

There are some great suggestions here!

One particular theme I've come across in many songs is that of a fella's love figured as a flower of a specific place (Virginia Rose, Flower of Magherally, She's a Flower from the Fields of Alabama). This theme points to several cultural realities of Southern and Irish identity: the strong identification of place as feminine in Southern and Irish symbolism (which in turn points to the nurturing character of agrarianism), the idea of "roots" (all three songs figure their characters as literally rooted in place through naturalizing them as flowers), and the emphasis on love of place through this thorough interweaving of romantic love and place love. Pretty cool to think that there might be an unconscious cultural understanding of symbolism that's made me love all those songs I've loved growing up.   

Lee III

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 02:18 PM

Stepstone-- not specific to a place, but all about the importance of place.

~S~

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: GUEST,van lingle
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 05:18 PM

Hi Lee,
Have you heard the pre civil war song "Lakes of Ponchartrain"? It seems Irish singers have grown pretty fond of this one so it might be worth looking into. I'm sure there has been at least one lengthy thread concerning it here on the mudcat which can be accessed by the search engine.vl

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: Willa
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 05:54 PM

Quiet Land of Erin

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: Joybell
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 07:57 PM

The vast majority of Irish settlers to America went to the cities of the East. Then some to the West during the goldrush. It's in the musichall songs of the cities that you find the connections between American and Irish songs. Many of them deal with "a sense of place" as do the songs sung in Australia. (By settlers - of all nationalities.)
In the American South, particularly in the mountains, the settlers brought their songs from Scotland and England - many from the Border area. Often these Mountain people are called Scots-Irish. They were from Scotland and NORTHERN Ireland. Lately it's become popular to call these people "Irish" and leave off the "Scots" bit.
Good luck with the studies but if you are narrowing your field to this area of America you should be aware of this Scotish/English connection in American songs. Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Apr 06 - 01:30 PM

Up on the Roof, which evokes New York (even though I've never been there). I somehow describes the energy and restlessness of a great city and the isolation of the individual.

I think the Beatles were trying to steal a little of that buzz, when they wrote Theres a Place.

Similarly the Paul Simon song, Late in the Evening, has that New York vibe, '...when its late in the vening.....and all the girls out of the stoops'.

Even though Paul probably never came from an area like that it has all that poetry of the brownstone buildings (in every film about NY since Angels with Dirty Faces), and that hint of sexual longing that hints at the energy of the place.

Both songs so much more subtle than 'I was born in the city of...........,' that starts so many bloody songs.

Okay shoot me down in flames and tell me it was actually about Milwaukee.

Ralph McTEll's exquisite song 'Summer Girls' from his suite of songs about Dylan Thomas is one of the best songs about the British seaside. the best written evocation, since Graham Greene's Brighton Rock. Obviously written about Swansea, but in my mind it's always Exmouth - the young man is walking through.

all the best

al

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: Tootler
Date: 16 Apr 06 - 06:51 PM

Paul Simon's song "Homeward Bound" has a sense of place to me. It is one of those songs you conjure up your own place and for me, reminds me of travelling to and from School by train across England at the beginning and end of holidays to whereever my Dad was then currently posted with the RAF.

For an Irish song, don't forget "Carrickfergus"

Geoff

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 16 Apr 06 - 07:39 PM

Living, as I have for the last 45 years or so, in Indiana, I would be remiss not to mention "Back Home Again in Indiana", or whatever its proper name is. That's the first line, and it ends, "On the banks of the Wabash, far away."   Come to think of it, I think the title is "The Banks of the Wabash."

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 01:09 AM

MacColl's "Sweet Thames Flow Softly"
Jacques Brel's "Port of Amsterdam"

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 12:15 PM

DaveO, I distracted myself, not misread his post. I was focusing on the songs that might have had a life in both places, transplanted, translated, immigrated. So my response to the Yellow Rose remark had to do with the clear Texas origins based on my looking for transplants. But since the tune could have come from elsewhere, I had to stop to consider the baggage that comes with a melody. (i.e., lots of words have been put to the tune of Danny Boy or Londonderry Air, but didn't the tune itself dictate the nature of the words that were sung to it.)

Perhaps best to consider this a sidebar to the main question.

SRS

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 12:32 PM

Joybell, I am aware of the Scotch-Irish presence in America - particularly in the mountains - and appreciate your bringing it into the conversation. It's funny but, growing up in the South and hearing "Scotch-Irish" thrown around all the time when discussing our heritage, I figured that the term was coined from just lumping all them folks together. You know, Scottish, Irish.. same thing. So I was very enlightened when my Celtic Music professor revealed that the "Scotch-Irish" or "Ulster Scots" were very Scottish people who moved to the North of Ireland under British urging only to find themselves (like most folks under the British it seems) screwed. Good thing they did and hopped over here or I wouldn't be having this discussion today! However, for the sake of keeping my paper at a manageable length, I'm narrowing the scope to close readings of place in lyrics without explicitly addressing the patterns of migration.

I've started writing the paper, so I'll link to it once I'm done to see what all y'all think.

Thanks for all y'all's suggestions!

Lee

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 01:46 PM

Lee,

Your professor was right (and it's nice to see the subject so succinctly described!) My father's mother's family (McCullough) were originally Scottish, moved to Northern Ireland, then moved again to the U.S., though in this case, the mid-Atlantic states (they were in various places in central Pennsylvania, around and north of Williamsport).

SRS

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: Kaleea
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 02:11 PM

The one which popped into my mind was "Way Down Upon The Swanee River" which came from the deeply rooted lack of a sense of home which Stephen Foster felt most of his life. He always longed for a true home, which is what he never achieved. The subject of home & a specific place is often found in his songs.

Subject: RE: songs dealing with 'sense of place'
From: Snuffy
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 02:55 PM

Not just US & Ireland - roses all over the world

Rose of Tralee
Rose of Allendale
Blooming Rose of South Wales
Rose of Versailles
Rose of No Man's Land
Wee white rose of Scotland
Rose Of Sharyn
Rose Of Bethlehem
Rose Of Cimarron