Tuning Shaw whistles

Subject: Tuning Shaw whistles
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 05:03 PM

I used to think that my Shaw A, in spite of sounding wonderfully wild and expressive, required too much wind for serious work. But I've just tried slipping a matchstick into the ?fipple? and now it's much easier to play, but a tad sharp of concert. Can anyone advise on the best way to tune, please?

Subject: RE: Tuning Shaw whistles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Apr 06 - 12:04 AM

Some instruments are deliberately designed to be a little sharp, so they can 'cut thru' the sound of a group.

Many piano accordions are set up thus, too.

Subject: RE: Tuning Shaw whistles
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 16 Apr 06 - 03:58 PM

They are generally tuned sharp in the lower register as conical whistles tend to blow flatter in the upper.
You could always light the match for really hot tune or two.
JohnB.

Subject: RE: Tuning Shaw whistles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Apr 06 - 08:53 PM

Also, leading on from JohnB, for many tunes, you play 'round the corner' or in the plagal mode on the instrument, i.e. tune runs mostly from top half of bottom octave to bottom half of top octave.


How's yer sails, JohnB ;)

Subject: RE: Tuning Shaw whistles
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 16 Apr 06 - 11:19 PM

I found at the Whistle Shop you can get a "tweaked Shaw" already adjusted(?).

Since the Shaw apparently doesn't have a separate mouthpiece that can be moved, the assumption would be that any adjustments would be limited to moving/replacing/modifying the wood block or "bending some tin." While I've got several reference books on what should work I've found that quoting physicists on instrument adjustments is appropriately known as "taking a physic" in some circles; so I'll defer to someone with practical knowledge in this case.

John

Subject: RE: Tuning Shaw whistles
From: Kaleea
Date: 16 Apr 06 - 11:56 PM

As a wind instrumentalist coming up in Band & Orchestra through school, one learns a few oddball things which enable us to "lip it down &c." Sometimes, when I'm sounding a bit sharp with a non tunable [or-diva nose in the air-forced to play with an instrumentalist who is a bit flat], if I attempt to open up the area in the back of my mouth (this takes some practice) it will lower the pitch just a bit.

Subject: RE: Tuning Shaw whistles
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 01:13 AM

The ability to modify the pitch and tone of any mouth-blown instrument by providing a "tuned mouth" is a part of learning any common band or orchestra wind instrument. One might say that learning this bit is sort of the demarcation point between being a "kid in the band" and a potential musician.

In whistle, proper tuning of the "back resonance" can be a very great assistance in flipping between the registers/octaves, but for some reason whistlers seem not generally to recognize that they do it. My observation would be that mostly they do - they just aren't really aware of how/what makes things happen. Perhaps a well-learned skill doesn't really need to be analyzed too much.

Based on my "unpracticed" experience with (mostly Generation) whistles, I'd expect a player could "pull" an individual note by about a quarter tone for experimental purposes, but perhaps half that would be a reasonable adjustment in actual performance(?). (Pulling a tone down seems a bit easier for me than going up.) If you don't "think" the right pitch you probably won't get it dead on, no matter how perfect the whistle.

Which of course doesn't suggest that a whistle with a plug in it doesn't perhaps merit a bit of work...

John

Subject: RE: Tuning Shaw whistles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 07:01 AM

"attempt to open up the area in the back of my mouth"

This is what I do all the time when playing a whistle to help stabilise the lower octave on all my whistles.


"(this takes some practice)"

You ain't whistlin' Dixie!

(Sorry, couldn't resist!)


"think the right pitch"

Woke up to that one, and do it all the time now. My father said you do the same with the violin, btw.

Also, if you have the fingers over the holes and not touching, you can modify the pitch, as well as half holing and certain appropriate cross fingerings. On that line I have a 'holeless whistle' - which ia a tube with a fipple at one end, and a normal bore-hole at the other - all pitch changes are done by over-blows and cupping one hand around the open end in various positions. Bit out of practice though, it's a stinker for someone with micro motor hassles to master - you really have to 'think ALL the notes in'!

Subject: RE: Tuning Shaw whistles
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 08:46 AM

I wonder if the person who started this thread is coming back.

Either way, one of the best tips I ever got was here on the Mudcat, from either Rick or Mick. To open up the back of the mouth, pretend you have taken in a mouthful of hot food and you aren't in a position of spit it out. You will instinctively open up the back of your mouth to let air in. Hold that pose and sing (or play).

Subject: RE: Tuning Shaw whistles
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 01:08 PM

I was hoping someone would be able to advise on a way to re-tune the whistle itself, (there is only so far one can take the above technique).

Subject: RE: Tuning Shaw whistles
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 05:09 PM

TB -

With the Shaw (at least the ones I've seen) the mouthpiece is formed from the end of the tube, so there's no simple way of moving the mouthpiece as one can do with a Generation.

Your matchstick in the slot (if I understand what you've done) is a start, but whether the matchstick will stay in the same place and won't swell/shrink when you slobber on it during play, is hard to predict without seeing your installation.

The air slot is formed by a wood block inserted in the end of the tube. A more "permanent" modification of the input air path would perhaps be obtained by removing the existing block and replacing it with one cut to replicate your block+matchstick.

You may be able to get some small amount of "tuning" by moving the block in/out of the tube, or perhaps by shaving or padding the inside edge of the block. The cavity between the air vent and the fipple (the plate - edge of the hole - that splits the flow) is part of that "back resonance" mentioned earlier. If the splitter is flattened as I believe it is in the Shaws, small adjustments up/down in the air stream may have some effect on "tuning" but may also destroy the ease of getting "the split" to happen and produce a clean note.

Almost anything you do to the individual "note holes" can affect the pitch of an individual note; but it's very difficult to predict what the effect will be (at least for one who hasn't worked with a whistle of a near-identical kind). Careful enlargement of the finger holes, to elongate them toward the tail end of the whistle would (theoretically) lower the note that sounds when the hole is the first one open. Elongating the hole toward the mouthpiece should raise the pitch.

The difficulty with "moving the holes" in this way is that the effective length of the air column is not the measured distance between the fipple and the hole. The "node" of the air column for a given hole is generally a small distance past the hole but the "size of the small" can't be easily calculated.

Simply enlarging a hole, without changing it's location will affect pitch, since the "effective node" usually will move closer to a large fingerhole than for a small one.

Sometimes an effect will be seen from "dimpling" one edge of a hole, in or out slightly, on the top or bottom edge. The effect here is that "turning the flow" in or out of the hole can "push or pull" the net displacement of the effective node location relative to the hole.

You can get some sort of an effect from flattening the whole tube so that it's oval instead of round, but especially with the tapered tube on the Shaw I won't even guess what the effects might be.

Your real DIY option - in the absence of an experienced tuner who's worked the problem before and is willing to give (or sell) advice, is to have a half-dozen whistles to play around with and hope at least one of them survives your experiment(s).

There have been a few published theoretical works on how all the parts and pieces play together; but I don't know of one to suggest that gives particularly practical information on the nuances appropriate to your whistle.

Perhaps someone moved to explain that all of the above is total BS will be along to explain what really can be done with your particular instrument.

John

Subject: RE: Tuning Shaw whistles
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 06:41 PM

Different ways to make a whistle play lower

1. Blow more gently - might work, might not.

2. Shape the note you want in your throat and mouth. Don't just rely on your fingers to produce the notes.

3. Are you sure that it's your instrument that's off and not Theirs?

4. When you are playing with others, especially on a sustained note, have the members of the group ask themselves "Is this pretty?" or "Is this an E chord?" If it isn't, fix it. I have been to workshops and done this. It is hard to communicate how it's done, but our sense of hearing is a primitive thing, far removed from the brain's verbal centers. It can do things that the brain cannot verbalize.

4. Try this - play some notes that don't involve using your lowest finger, the ring finger of the right hand. While you play them, move your ring finger in a tiny circle above the last hole. See what a difference the position of that finger makes?

5. I have a Shaw whistle in D. I confess I find it hard to take it seriously as a musical instrument. This instrument in A that you have, how much did it cost? Perhaps it just wasn't made right and you should replace it.

Subject: RE: Tuning Shaw whistles
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 03:46 AM

Thanks John. I've been playing the whistle for a long time now so I think am conversant with most of the blowing and fingering techniques for fine tuning, vibrato, slurs etc. But the Shaw is a very different beast to any of my other whistles. It has a most unusual and interesting voice - primative, wild and weather-beaten - and it paints a picture I could never achieve with a 'normal' whistle. I also didn't take it seriously when I first bought it (though I loved the sound), because even with my big lungs it proved impossible to play for more than a few bars (notes?) without a breath. I've had it locked away for years, but now I've given myself a fighting chance with the matchstick, the sound would work perfectly for a current project (slow Airs in Bm) - if I can fix the pitch problem. (Yes, I could buy another, but I'm currently on a very small island with no music shop, and I need something to while away the evenings)!

I'm not a stickler for tuning, but I play (professionally) in a duo, and, as discussed elsewhere, duos require tighter tuning than sessions, larger groups or solo performances. I'd heard of the match-stick solution before, I was just wondering of anyone had solved the other mechanical problems which are unique to the Shaw.

Thanks for your input everyone.

Tom

Subject: RE: Tuning Shaw whistles
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 07:45 AM

Sugestions -
try contacting the man himself - he may be able to suggest a fix which would help you. http://www.daveshaw.co.uk/Contact/contact.html
Try here http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=11712
They seem to be discussing similar problems already.
Quack!
Geoff the Duck.

Subject: RE: Tuning Shaw whistles
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 07:48 AM

I ssem to have mistyped second link somewherehttp://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=11712 FIXED LINK
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Tuning Shaw whistles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 08:37 AM

I have Low Ds - both Shaw & Howard. I can play all the way thru a normal 4 line stanza song in one breath and have some left on the Howard - on the Shaw I need to work hard to get all the way thru just one of the same four lines. You learn to live with it - that's just the way it is!

You can 'fiddle the fipple sharp edge up and down to change how the air is split, and you can also squash the air feed gap (to restrict the airflow a bit too, after which stage you will most definitely have to twiddle the sharp edge. Too much twiddling and you sound like Tweety after Sylvester fed him Thalted Cwackerth!

Subject: RE: Tuning Shaw whistles
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 09:24 PM

With some time on your hands, and a few fairly simple tools - and an old tin can or two, if wouldn't seem too difficult to make a fairly close approximation to a Shaw that you could beat and bash to your heart's content. That would at least give you a way to try out a few notions without destroying your existing instrument.

Maybe you could become a "the mastertuner" and figure out how to save the character but improve the personality. (?).

Music needs new heroes on a regular basis. (Although musicians are not immune to heaping abuse on the real heroes - any more so than other populations.)

John

Subject: RE: Tuning Shaw whistles
From: Ned Ludd
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 04:03 AM

Hi Tom, Your mate Tony Taffinder solved the problem with his Shaw 'f' whistle...He gave it to me! it still doesnt work too well, but I have a low 'd' that is fine.I think that the Ducks suggestion is good. The man that made it should know how to tune it.

The General.

Subject: RE: Tuning Shaw whistles
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 04:45 AM

At about the fifth post in this thread, I put a link to the Whistle Shop where they claim to have "tweaked Shaws" that are probably close to what you're trying for. I didn't attempt to see if they reveal any secrets in their braggin' about what they've got, but some followup digging there might get some ideas about what can be done.

All you have to do is figure out who the "Jerry" is that does the tweaking for them, and then discreetly follow him/her around a bit.

John

Subject: RE: Tuning Shaw whistles
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:17 PM

Actually Tony kindly gave me a nice small-bore A Susato the other day (you can't buy them any more and I'd lost the top off mine - black whistle, black stage, guinness) - so maybe I'll just use that. Sweeter tone than my full bore Susatos - but not the wild tone of the Shaw. I'm on a dial-up here so will investigate the links when I get back to civilisation. Thanks again

Subject: RE: Tuning Shaw whistles
From: Gedpipes
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 10:28 AM

Tom
You might want to try rolling up a piece of card and inserting it into the tube so that it fits snugly - it depends on how many cents you are out. It might work - there again it might not
As you'll probably be aware some uilleann pipers do this. you can adjust it depending on temperature changes.

Good luck
Ged