what a difference a pick makes

Subject: what a difference a pick makes
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 09:18 AM

I've mentioned before on the Mudcat that I play the fretted dulcimer, also known as mountain dulcimer, lap dulcimer and Appalachian dulcimer. I've always felt that my dulcimer was little too twangy.

I usually play by using a thumb pick on my right thumb. My thumbpick strikes the melody string, thus bringing out the melody, while my second and third finger pluck the harmony strings.

Saturday I found myself in a music store, and as always, I asked to see their thumb picks. This time I bought a new type - a chocolate brown one with gold writing that says National. I hurried home with it clutched to my bosom and tried it. The difference between this pick and my others is like the difference between maple syrup and ketchup. The sound is softer, and the twang is gone.

My husband was in the next room, and he commented on it right away. So the difference is not just my imagination.

Of course, there will always be room in my life for other picks. Some songs need a little twang. But for a song like "Salve Regina," the new pick is just the ticket. Naturally I plan to buy some spares.

Someday I may achieve fame by being the first woman to circle the globe buying thumbpicks.

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: Mr Happy
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 09:32 AM

Have you seen these:http://www.alaskapik.com/?

Lots muso use 'em for all kinds string instruments & say best thing since sliced bread!

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 12:49 PM

Those are interesting picks - an extension of the fingernail, more or less.

Where do they fit on the ketchup - maple syrup continuum?

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 01:03 PM

I started with thin picks when I started playing the mandolin - mostly because it was easier. Much later I started using heavier picks because the players that had the tone I loved played them. And lo and behold the tone was better. I had to adapt to the thicker picks - but it was well worth it.

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: DonMeixner
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 01:10 PM

I flat pick the 5 String for some tunes in an Irish band I have been in for 18 years. I have learned that the stiffest and most pointed pick I can find (Tortex) has the best tone and is the fastest pick I can use. This works for me, maybe not others. Thin picks are noisy and they tend to be slower because you are further away from the string by the time they sound the string and consequently you have further to go back. How much further? Very tiny particles of an inch but in the world of strings and plectrums these are considerable.

Give the heavy pointed white Tortex picks a try.

Don

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 01:24 PM

An aside that has nowt to do with thumb picks: I find that depending on the 'sound' I want from my old D-28, that the thickness of the pick is crucial. Also, I sometimes use one of the more rounded corners instead of the pointier one. It also makes a big difference as to where one strikes/strums the strings--near the bridge, over the sound hole, etc. I'm partial to Fender picks, but when I can't find any of the two dozen or so I leave around, a piece of plastic/folded match book cover sometimes has to do.

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 01:25 PM

I've got into bodging my own, in search of the perfect thumb-pick.... Herco brand, Heavy gauge , but I cut the 'pick' off just behind the "East" hole

To the stub, I super-epoxy (OR Krazy Glue) a Jim Dunlop .60mm

This gives me the grip around my thumb of an Herco Heavy, but the pick feel of a softer flatpick... I actually might go even lighter to .46mm on the next one I make.... Or cut the Herco even further back so that it's not quite so stiff.....

This set up allows me to (Once I get the gauge sorted out anyway) go from flat-picking to finger-style and back again seamlessly

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: Kaleea
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 01:46 PM

Peace brings up an important point-strum over the sound hole of whatever instrument you play. One of the first things I try to teach is how different the sound can be depending upon where you strum on the instrument. I sometimes see "pros" who strum an inch or two from the bridge or over the end of the fingerboard because that is their habit. When you add a noisy pick to that, the sound-no matter how fine the instrument-can be awful.
This can be very important on a Mtn. Dulcimer, as you have a small indention where the strumming is meant to take place. The sound is altered if you don't strum there, and the fingerboard will be torn up by the pick. Nothing like paying an extra $100-200 for an ebony fingerboard just to tear it up.

I tend to use a thicker, large triangular pick with rounded corners for strumming & flat pickin' Mtn. Dulcimer-it is easier for my arthritic fingers to hang on to. I also like to fingerpick-it has a lovely tone. Sometimes I use a Psaltry bow for an interesting effect. I've also been known to use hammers meant for the hammered Dulcimer. It can be pretty wild to alternate some of these things during a contest piece, but the result can be taking first place.

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: GUEST,jim
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 06:53 PM

I like the big, thin, triangular picks for the dulcimer. I use a medium, rounded tri-corner for guitar, mandolin or tenor banjo.

I saw a flat pick today with a piece that went around your thumb and 3 or 4 little holes to stop them from falling off - kind of a combination flat/thumb pick. They came in various thicknesses.
It seems like something that GUEST,leeneia would like for her dulcimer. I'll try to get the brand name if she's interested.

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: Willie-O
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 07:44 PM

For a long time I got into heavier and heavier picks...finally those purple 1.14mm suckers. Because of course they go where you point 'em without any flopping around. Which seems to be what you want

My friend James Stephens was recording me and didn't like the way they sounded--he pointed out that super-heavy picks tend to dig into the strings and create an unattractive sound that way. In fact, you can lose them in there if you dig too hard!

So I back-pedalled, one gauge at a time. I now pretty much exclusively use Jim Dunlop .73mm tortex--the yellow ones. For me, a happy medium. Just enough strength and just enough flex.

I noticed around St Pats Day when I was playing a whole helluva lot, mostly mandolin, that they wear down from pointy to round pretty quick under that kind of use. C'est la vie. It's gotta be yellow.

Alaska-piks are very nifty and I made a point of picking some up whenever in the States for several years. For some reason I got out of the habit--probably cause I'm mostly playing with bands now and not fingerpicking at all.

W-O

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: GUEST,Texas Guest
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 07:58 PM

Sorry, y'all, but the best thumb pick around is made by a man in Grand Rapids, Michigan - Fred Kelly. Find his website and buy one of his picks with the moveable plectrum - there is simply nothing like it. Understand, of course, I love the Detroit Red Wings; yet, there are those who cannot tolerate the sight of their jersey under any circumstance. Different strokes for different strokes (gee, I hate that phrase). Cheers.

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: Amos
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 09:53 PM

Those may be the ones we call "Bumble Bees" because of the color; they have a slideable plectrum on a wrap-around band so you can use them as either a thumb-pick or a flat pick. I love 'em.


A

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 10:03 PM

I'm enjoying this thread. It is good to hear from creative musicians.

Clinton, have you ever tried the Herco Light pick? It is my standby for the dulcimer. Well, it was until I found the National pick. Is this love or merely infatuation?

Kaleea, that is an amazing idea about using hammers. But how do you deal with the fretting?

As for fingerpicks, I have never felt comfortable with them. They lock my hand up too much.
--------
New pieces I am now playing on my dulcimer

Yellow Bird
Trumpet Whatchacallit by Jeremiah Clark
Since I met you baby, my whole life has changed.

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 10:11 PM

I found the site for Fred Kelly's picks:

http://www.fredkellyspicks.com/about_us.html

They look interesting, but there's no store near me. Maybe when I go to my nephew's wedding near Minneapolis...

I have tried his yellow quick-pick, but it's too harsh for me.

But as I said in the first post, I intend to circumnavigate the globe buying thumbpicks all along the way.

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: number 6
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 10:43 PM

A Dremel is a good tool to thin out the guage, and round off the point to your own preference for thumb picks. Tried the Hercos but then they are too thin.

sIx

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: Amos
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 11:43 PM

Fred Kelley's Picks

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: Sean Belt
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 11:44 PM

I use the large triangular Dunlop Tortex .50 guage (the red ones) picks for lap dulcimer playing. They give me that pick noise that I think is essential to the instrument's character. Seldom finger pick the dulcimer, but when I do, I don't use a thumb pick at all. Maybe I'll get a National and give it a try.

Sean R-B

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: GUEST,Texas Guest
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 11:48 PM

Leeneia, you should be able to order the picks directly from Fred Kelly; and yes, Amos, they are called the Bumble Bee. I picked one up a couple of years ago when I ordered a 24 count sample bag of Fred's thumbpicks - now I've got a drawer full of thumbpicks that I'll never use and I probably should order a couple more Bees just in case.

A lady I perform with here in Texas uses Herco picks all day long; however, the problem I have with them is that the part that loops around your thumb is the same gauge as the plecturm part so they won't stay on your thumb if you play with any gusto - not a good thing.

I'm a bonafide Fred Kelly guy; and, for flat picks - the Aliens rock, or should I say - folk! Cheers.

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:31 AM

" Clinton, have you ever tried the Herco Light pick?"

Yup, and the plastic is too light, it doesn't grip my thumb firmly enough... The mediums neither....

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: GUEST,Sandy Andina
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:45 AM

I like to use a red Herdim 3-sided (not quite triangular) dulcimer pick--each corner is a different thickness. Sometimes I use a triangular tortoise-celluloid Fender Med. (the thins are too flappy). When I want looser action and a "rounder" sound, I strum by one of the soundholes just north of the hollow, and it doesn't seem to mess up the fingerboard (rosewood or walnut, dep. on which dulc. I'm using). For fingerpicking, I use reinforced silk wraps on my index and middle fingernails and a thumbpick, over the strum hollow.

I don't use a thumbpick for guitar, though, except for 12-string, and then a yellow or orange Fred Kelly Slik Pik (not the Speed Pik that has that floppy little tab).

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: PoppaGator
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 01:41 AM

From leeneia's opening post:

This time I bought a new type - a chocolate brown one with gold writing that says National.

Those National thumbpicks are nothing new to me ~ they've been my favorites for decades. When I started playing more frequently a few years ago, after a long period of relative inactivity, I eventually lost my thumbpick and had difficulty finding a new National to buy. Most music stores hereabouts didn't even carry thumbpicks and fingerpicks, only flatpicks. Where thumb/fingerpicks were available at all, the selection was always limited and inadequate. I spent about a year buying and trying various bogus thumbpicks before finally locating a source for the quality National product that I needed.

National thumbpicks come in sizes; mine says "National M" (for medium). Is yours, perhaps, an "S"? One's preference is dictated not only by the actual size of the thumb, but also by how tight a fit one prefers.

Unlike flatpickers, who use, lose, and discard their picks quickly and often buy them in quantity, fingerpickers tend to keep a single set of picks, or maybe two, and may go for years without needing to buy replacements. This is not so much because of the thumbpick, but the fingerpick(s) ~ at least, for those of us using metal ones. Custom-fitting a couple of picks to STAY on your righthand fingertips can take a while, and once you get 'em right, you really want to keep track of your set of picks and not have to start the fitting process over again with new ones. (National is a leading source for the best metal fingerpicks, too.)

I have to disagree with Kaleea that it's necessary to strum over the soundhole. That position does yield an excellent all-purpose sound, but I deliberately move above and below the soundhole to achieve a wider variety of sounds; picking/strumming closer to the bridge provides an extra-bright "ringing" sound wherein each string is individually audible, while moving up towards the fingerboard makes for a softer sound that emphasizes the harmonic sound of the chord as opposed to the notes of which the chord is composed.

That's on a guitar, now; I can't speak for the dulcimer and other instruments. But how much different can it be?

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: Amos
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 02:17 AM

Experience has taught me to use the width of the area from well below to slightly above the soundhole for texturing the sound differently.

A

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 09:55 AM

"Most music stores hereabouts didn't even carry thumbpicks and fingerpicks, only flatpicks."

What a desolate image! I'm glad you've found a source.

In 1973 my brother moved to Mansfield, Ohio and discovered that it was impossible to buy spinach noodles. He finally located the rice in a gourmet food section. He felt the way you must feel with respect to fingerpicks.

My thumbpick is an M. All this week I thought it just had two parallel marks on it -- some kind of cabalistic code -- but it's merely an M that went over the edge of the pick.

I don't have to worry about fit because the thumb pick is the only pick I use. My other fingers play au naturel. I play the dulcimer rather as if it were a piano, with a lot of finger independence. When I want a strum, I brush the thumbpick over the strings.

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 11:27 AM

I pretty much have fallen head over heels for the Fred Kelly Bumblebee in a medium or light gauge. I do a lot of fingerstyle mixed with percussive strums and this works as well as anything I have tried. I used to use Herco's but the Kellys are amazing.

When I am playing Irish Bouzouki or flat picking, I also use the Herdim 3 sided. Very fast, very clean, easier on the fingers when playing a high tension instrument. Try using too heavy a pick on a 3 tune AA-BB-AB Reel set that lasts for +/- 10 minutes. It will get your attention. The Herdims are very easy on the fingers in these circumstances.

Mick

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: Pied Piper
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 11:54 AM

Just a thought about the "twang" phenomenon; I found out when I first started playing the Bardic Harp (uses Guitar strings) that Twang can be greatly reduced if the sting is at the right tension (not too loose).
Do Mountain dulcimers have the same string length Guitars?
And perhaps more importantly how much load will they take?

I'm a 13s to 56s man on the Guitar but I don't know if Dulcimers are up to that at full tension.

PP

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 01:21 PM

I've tried Kellys "Speed Pick" and hated it....

I've yet to lay hands on a Bumblebee, but I have to admit, I don't actually see 'the point'?? Is it that the 'pick' is more 'regular pick-ish' or what?

Why the need to 'rotate'?!?!

What am I missing?

While we talking about pics, I still have a collection of Wire Thing Picks in my yard sale if anyone wants to try 'em

:-)

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 12:06 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: Sean Belt
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 12:57 PM

Pied Piper,

Most lap dulcimers have a string length of around 26 - 27 inches. Somewhat shorter than most guitars, I think. As to the load they'll bear, it's considerably less than a guitar. Dulcimers have three or four strings as compared to six for the guitar (unless it's a 12-string), and the string guages are lighter for the dulcimer.

For my dulcimers (and this may be getting somewhat off-topic for this thread), I use banjo strings in guages of 12 for the melody string, 14 for the middle string, and either a wound 22 or 24 for the bass, depending on the instrument. Again, much lighter than the strings I use for acoustic guitars.

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 03:30 PM

"Since I met you baby, my whole life has changed"

That was the first song I learned to play on guitar and sing to. Thank you for the memory.

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 11:31 AM

I've yet to lay hands on a Bumblebee, but I have to admit, I don't actually see 'the point'?? Is it that the 'pick' is more 'regular pick-ish' or what?

Why the need to 'rotate'?!?!

What am I missing?

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: breezy
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 03:10 PM

I dont play a dulcimer but guitar.

I have the whole range of Fred's and the yellow and orange speed picks are my prefered choices after decades on other various, eroding, snapping lines.

I passed one white pick on to another local muso and he ordered a bag load, he plays dobro or a national , on his knees , steel, pedal, so hes got a lifetimes supply.

For anyone in the U K , I happen to have a few available.

our folk club restarts on Sunday 7th May at the Comfort Hotel. St Albans , herts eng

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: Grab
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 05:35 PM

Another vote for the large triangular ones - I just can't get a grip on the little "normal" ones, so they always end up on the floor or in the soundhole. Jim Dunlop seem to have two different shapes, one more rounded than the other (I've also got a Tortex version of the same thing sold with Martin branding on it). The more pointy one seems to give a better attack, but YMMV. There's also some ridiculously large (and *very* pointy) triangular ones available which are just too big.

.77 seems to be the best general-purpose for me, with enough flexibility for easy tone control and enough stiffness to give decent volume. I do have a hard plastic 2mm pick (same shape, in transparent red) which sounds like crap but makes a really loud sound, so ideal for loud places where being heard, not quality, is the issue.

Graham.

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: GUEST,van lingle
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 09:32 PM

When I used to use thumbpicks I'd take the big National white one and plunk in a pot of hot water (not boiling,if it gets too hot it will straighten out the pick immediately) for a couple of seconds pull it out, put it on my thumb and run cold water over it while holding it in place and I'd have a thumbpick that conformed to my thumb perfectly. Then I'd thin it out on the top side of the lower flat part with a piece of sand paper ( Number 6 suggests using a Dremel for this , which sounds like a good idea). I liked it at about the equivalent of a med. flatpick. Next I'd round it off and shorten it a bit so it just came past the edge of my thumb. It's something you can tweak to your own specs.vl

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 11:40 AM

refresh

I've yet to lay hands on a Bumblebee, but I have to admit, I don't actually see 'the point'?? Is it that the 'pick' is more 'regular pick-ish' or what?

Why the need to 'rotate'?!?!

What am I missing?

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 26 Apr 06 - 11:27 AM

So, what's the point of the Bumblebee pick?

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 26 Apr 06 - 11:48 AM

Clinton, I think that the special feature of the Bumblebee pick is that the projection eliminates the variables that occur when using a triangular pick - e.g., the triangular pick sliding rather than striking precisely, or the point of the pick hitting the string versus the edge of the pick. No doubt there are other variables.

Re twang: the National pick (maple syrup) eliminates the twang that I get with the Herco light (ketchup). No need for me to worry about all those other factors.

Peace: do you play dulcimer? I guess not.

I believe that when one sings "Since I met you baby," it's a nice idea to sound happy. The guy who recorded it made it sound like a dirge. No need for that.

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Apr 06 - 11:49 AM

the point is an attack angle that can be altered (unlike a thumbpick), even though the pick is a attached to your thumb (like a thumbpick). Some people also like the fact that the point of the bumblebee is not "pointy" like a thumbpick, but rather "pointy" like a flatpick.

It strikes some as a nice hybrid between flat and thumb. Kelly himself also uses it quite successfully to pick on the upstroke -- a difficult task to master with a thumbpick.

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 26 Apr 06 - 12:27 PM

"the point is an attack angle that can be altered"

Aaaaah! Now see, that makes sense even to MY addled brain.... Hummmm....

Maybe I will have to try to track one down....

thanks!

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 10:48 AM

I have a friend who plays mandolin and guitar. He goes to the National Flatpicking Festival every year. Once he said to me, "It seems that there is no end to the number of ways you can hold a pick."

Add to that multiplicity the number of pick designs there are, and it's clear that there is great potential for differing sounds and personal preferences in the world of picking.

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: GUEST,J
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 05:31 PM

Just an FYI for anyone trying to find Fred Kelly's site, all the references in this thread are wrong; maybe it's changed since they were posted, I don't know, but the right URL is: www.fredkellypicks.com (note there is NO "s" after kelly).

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 06:22 PM

http://www.fredkellypicks.com/

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: Cluin
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 03:02 PM

The Light Pick.

It looks clunky to use. Might be a good addition to a live show in a dark bar, but otherwise a waste of time and money. Sound and fury...

"It's been thousands of years since there was any significant advance in pick technology..."

Yeh, okay...

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 07:28 PM

I'm kind of a pick nut. I have all kinds from stubbies to thin. I have the Tortis and the ebony and bone the from guy who makes them in Holland, shells etc. In my experience, each guitar you play requires its own pick. I use a large Stubby on the 12. I use a pointed Jim Dunlop .73 on my Tacoma. I use a round Jim Dunlop .73 on my tenor banjos. I use a .73 or a thinner guage tortoise shell on my Martin 0021. I haven't figured which pick sounds best on my Gibson ES 345 yet.

Cluin, the Light Pick doesn't sound so good to me. It may look "mahvelous"...but.....

I think the musical material makes a difference too. I .73 on my Guild 12 string sounds different than the Stubby. For quieter songs on the 12, the .73, for more bass, the Stubby.

What I try to do is record each possibility and let the CD recorder decide which sounds best.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: what a difference a pick makes
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 09:36 AM

Gosh, Streetsinger, you've actually given this matter some thought. For example, you know the names of your picks. Me, I just think of them as the red one, the brown one, the speckled one, etc.

But I agree that it makes a difference which one you use. Also, it's impossible to have too many.