12-String Frustration

Subject: 12-String Frustration
From: GUEST,Guest: Lycos
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 02:28 PM

I've had a takamine 12-string for a few years, and I've recently had a lot of frustration when it comes to restringing it. As soon as I get to the secondary, higher g-string, and attempt to tune to concert pitch, the string just snaps. Doesn't seem like too big of a problem, it's just that within the past few hours, I've gone through 3 sets of strings, and I still don't have a high g-string. Any advice? I've tried light and extra-light gauges, but neither get the job done.

Subject: RE: 12-String Frustration
From: Bernard
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 02:46 PM

It's not the guage of the string, it's a problem with the instrument.

Where does the string break? My guess is it's at the point where it passes through the hole in the tuner. If so, you may need to round off the edge of the hole... I once had a similar problem with my old Eko Ranger 12...

It's just possible that it's the way you wrap the string round the pin. Thin strings need AT LEAST four turns around the pin to stop them slipping, and it's bad practice to pass the string end through the pin twice, as thisd often results in breakages. It's also vital to make the windings very neat - not crossing over, which can cause a weak point.

On the other hand, if it's breaking at the bridge, look for something that may need attention there.

String breakages on my instruments (6 & 12 guitar, mandolin, banjo) are very rare. I only have to change strings because they are past their best, and they don't drop out of tune after I've fitted them, because I pay great attention to how they 'lie'.

I frequently change my strings when I arrive at a gig, and never have tuning problems. No, I'm not bragging, just offering my technique as advice.

Subject: RE: 12-String Frustration
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 02:54 PM

Something the string rests on is too sharp. Could be at the bridge, nut or tuning heads. Have a good look.

Subject: RE: 12-String Frustration
From: 12string growler
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 03:14 PM

I totally agree with Bernard,

I usually anchor the string at the bridge end, then wind the string around the tuner spindle anything up to 6 times before passing he string end through the hole in the spindle. It's fiddly but it works for me.

I too used to have similar trouble with an EKO Ranger 12.

Chris

Subject: RE: 12-String Frustration
From: Bernard
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 03:26 PM

;0)

The good ol' Eko Ranger! I still have mine somewhere... a lovely instrument, but very quiet. My Yamaha FG260 is also a lovely instrument, but VERY LOUD!!

Subject: RE: 12-String Frustration
From: GUEST,Lycos
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 05:36 PM

I'm assuming/hoping this is a problem with my string winding, since it's breaking right at the tuner (and since I'm generally sloppy when it comes to winding). If the hole on the tuner has a sharp edge, though, how would I take care of it?

    Thanks for all the help so far; this is such a welcoming little site!

Subject: RE: 12-String Frustration
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 05:41 PM

If it's breaking at the hole of the tuning head, use a piece of emery paper to 'round' or 'soften' the edges of the hole. Check out step three (3).

However, the whole thing is worth a read, IMO.

Subject: RE: 12-String Frustration
From: Ragman
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 05:47 PM

Do you find that when you are tuning the guitar, the strings don't always change in pitch smoothly, but tend to jump. If this has been happening, have a look at the grooves in the nut (the white grooved bone or plastic bar which guides the strings to the tuning pegs(You could call it fret zero). If a string is snagging there, it will put a lot of strain on it as you tune it up to pitch. It may sometimes break at the nut but not always. I find that from time to time it is a good idea to take an old string, and run it backwards and forwards several times in the groove to clean the run of the string. This may solve your problem.

One or two words of caution. You don't want to overdo the cleaning process. If you make the grooves too wide or too deep, you can upset the setup of the guitar, and replacing the nut is never straightforward. It has to be cut to that the strings are just the right height above the fretboard, and this takes time and patience to get just right. With a 12 string, it will take at least twice as long!

Subject: RE: 12-String Frustration
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 06:03 PM

Good advice from the folks here. One more little thing: if you find it IS the nut doing what Ragman says, be careful 'widening' the slot. Too wide and it isn't good. Something I have found that helps make the srings of my six-string slide more easily over (thru) the nut in graphite. The liquid stuff used by people who have guns works as well as the old sharpened pencil did. BUT, it can be messy if you're not careful. It doesn't take much. You can use an old string (the one you're replacing) to get the stuff in there.

Subject: RE: 12-String Frustration
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 09:10 PM

If you get really fed up but another thick G on it. that's what I ended up doing with mine. You could try a thinner one than the other one say a 23 and a twenty - or you could try an unwound G, as used on an electric guitar. this is the trouble when you start looking for stuff that you aren't sure about.

try and outwit the monster.

Subject: RE: 12-String Frustration
From: Bernard
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 06:36 PM

The easiest and most effective way to deal with sharp edges on the hole of a tuner is to use a round 'needle file' across the hole in the direction the string runs. This not only removes the sharp edge, but improves the lie of the string around the hole.

I use '10 thou' (.010") strings for my high G, and they never break. I tune to concert pitch, and I'm not exactly gentle with my guitars!!

Out monster the twit!

Subject: RE: 12-String Frustration
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 07:58 PM

If you decide that you have a sharp edge at the hole through the tuner shaft, the round needle file, or the alternative, a small toolmaker's whetstone, moved across (perpendicular) to the shaft across the top of the hole is the standard method, but "de-burring" a small hole through a round shaft to get a really smooth edge can be sort of touchy. It's possible for the file or stone, to push a "hanging burr" that will stay sharp no matter how much you shove it around. You may not be able to see one of these "hangers" sharp enough to cut into your string with less than about 10x magnification.

For a final "polish" on the edge of the hole, just use a short piece of one of your old wound strings, pass it through the hole and work back and forth while you pull tension against the side of the hole where the sharp edge is. It won't cut anything very fast, unless you use an enormous amount of tension on the string, but just sliding it along the edge will get rid of any "hanging edges" on the hole.

The summer that I worked at the de-burr bench at a local airplane factory, I kept a piece of leather boot lace handy, with a cup of valve-grinding (fine) compound I could wipe onto the lace, just for that kind of hole.

John

Subject: RE: 12-String Frustration
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 08:07 PM

the other thing is - you could have been sold old stock. some music shops don't sell many sets of 12 strings and they stay in for too long. inspect the remaining strings make sure there are not specks of corrosion up and down it.

In which case the string would be weaker than it should be, to start off.

Subject: RE: 12-String Frustration
From: SussexCarole
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 12:11 PM

kendall here.

I always tune my 12 down to "D" so never have that problem. Down there, I can also use wound strings for the "B" which eliminates that awful "B" string intonation problem.

Subject: RE: 12-String Frustration
From: Bernard
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 04:50 PM

Worse than children, ain't they?!

Subject: RE: 12-String Frustration
From:
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 06:09 PM

Frustrated 12 string...
When i baught my 12 string i hsd the same problem...
Here is the solution: DO NOT HIGH PITCH THE FORTH STRING
It must be set the same as the third...Try it!
Dave

Subject: RE: 12-String Frustration
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 04:12 AM

The octave G is important to getting the usual 12-string sound. The tension of that string, because it is so thin, is no greater than any other string (give or take a bit). Therefore the problem is either that the strings (all of the new sets tried) were old and brittle - unlikely to be so for all sets - or that there is a sharp edge on the string peg at the machine head. Attack the machine head as described above - or take the instrument to a local guitar fettler: the cost should be less than four sets of strings!

If you need individual top G strings I think the ones sold as top G banjo strings may be easier to get in the USA but in any event it's only a matter of measuring the thickness of the broken string and that will probably turn out to be something like 7 thou which is one of the light standard top strings for an alectric guitar so should be readily available.

Subject: RE: 12-String Frustration
From: Bernard
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 09:33 AM

As I said above, I've always found 10 thou strings to be perfectly okay, and are readily available. They are okay for tension, and balance with the other strings for volume. A thinner string is actually more likely to break, won't stay in tune properly, and will be rather quiet - as Richard quite rightly pointed out, it's essential to the 12-string sound.

Subject: RE: 12-String Frustration
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 12:53 PM

Wo! If you are taking a ten up to top G, expect it to be very tight. Ten is the standard top E 12-string "light". I have just put a micrometer on some of my 12s with "light" sets on and the standard top G seems to be an eight.

Subject: RE: 12-String Frustration
From: s&r
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 01:31 PM

This might be interesting it calculates string tension with different gauges. 10thou seems to bee used for 'G' with a medium to heavy twelve string set.

Stu

Subject: RE: 12-String Frustration
From: Bernard
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 02:49 PM

My 12 string set (for around 35 years!) is as follows (w = wound, p = plain):

1 & 2: 010p

3 & 4: 010p

5: 023w

6: 010p

7: 030w

8: 012p

9: 038w

10: 018p

11: 048w

12: 027w

Admittedly the D'Aquisto 760 sets I have at the moment (I buy direct from JHS here in the UK) come with an 009p high G, but I substitute an 010p. I prefer the Kaman bronze, but no-one around here stocks them, and Kaman aren't interested in dealing direct for a box of 12 sets...

Subject: RE: 12-String Frustration
From: Bernard
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 02:54 PM

Forgot to mention... see me and my old FG260 (circa 1970), and hear an audio sample on my website...

Subject: RE: 12-String Frustration
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 05:12 PM

Those B's can't be 10s - maybe 13 or 14?

Subject: RE: 12-String Frustration
From: Bernard
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 05:20 PM

Ooops!! Only just getting used to these new reading glasses...!!

Yup, they're 014p...

Just testing... ;0)

Subject: RE: 12-String Frustration
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 05:00 PM

Hey Lycos, did any of this solve any of your prob;ems?

Subject: RE: 12-String Frustration
From: GUEST,Sunny
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 06:40 PM

Hi all,
I have an Epiphone 12string - the guitar worked fine for a few weeks after purchasing, but now I put new strings and I have problem with the G strings. The higher G is perfect when I tune it all on the neck, but the regular G goes out of tune and too sharp, from the 2nd or 3rd fret and it is terrible higher...
Have you ever experienced it before? Before trying to adjust anything, have you ever had the same case?
Thank you
Sunny

Subject: RE: 12-String Frustration
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 06:47 PM

If the other G string stays in tune, then the nut or saddle grove for the string that goes outta tune (when you fret the string) is too low.

"String theory"

Take any string and put it under tension. Lightly, find the half-way point of the string. Touch the string and pluck it lightly. It will sound a note that is called a harmonic. Again, half the string from that point to its end point. Again you will sound a note that is a harmonic that is one octave higher than the first note. The frets on guitars are placed the way they are (notice that they get 'closer together' as you move your hand to tward the body of the guitar. Each fret is placed where it is because of the necessity to shorten the string where it will vibrate to fairly exact lengths. Subsequently, I would think the problem is with one of the grooves and not the frets, because the other strings are not giving you the 'outta tune' problem.

Subject: RE: 12-String Frustration
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 06:12 AM

Thank you Peace!
But still - it is strange that all the strings are fine, good intonation, except 1 string from 12, only the G, the G octave higher is fine...I will try, so big thanks.

Subject: RE: 12-String Frustration
From: Hovering Bob
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 07:45 AM

Yes, you need to check for any obvious mechanical problems causing the breaks and I always used an 8thou string for that top G, but the best tip I can give from over 30 years experience of playing a 12 string, is tune the guitar a tone (two frets) down. It saves the strings and takes a tremendous load off the neck.
I think the tension is a 'square' factor. i.e. to raise the pitch by an octave you halve the string length which suggests you would double the tension to achieve the same effect. But you don't it's 2 squared i.e. 4 times the pressure (ouch.)
Sadly, following my stroke, my 12 string days are a thing of the past. My old 'Folk 12' is now in Leadfingers' capable hands.

Subject: RE: 12-String Frustration
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 09:47 AM

More likely the nut is too HIGH for the thicker G string, if the problem is worst over the first few frets.

Alternatively the nut for the fat G could be chipped so that in effect the nut for that one string is too far back. If so a temporary cure can be effected with superglue and masking tape.

If however the problem gets steadily worse as you go up the neck, it MAY be that string has gone conical and a new fat G string might cure it. More likely it is the classic 12-string intonation problem that each course of octave strings really needs "compensation" (like b-compensated saddles do for the b-string) at the saddle. I am told this can be done but I have never seen it. Could your fat G have become mis-seated at the saddle?

Subject: RE: 12-String Frustration
From: GUEST,Lycos
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 09:59 PM

Hey all, sorry for the delay, been a bit busy.
Here's a couple of updates: I took a cheap needle style knife sharpener (about the size of a ball point pen refill) and smoothed out the edges of the tuning machine. Then, I took an old wound string and ran it through, using it to sort of file everything a little bit more. Then, I took a length of leather lacing and did the same, picking up any metal filings that may have been left behind.
Since I had so many extra high-G-stringless sets of strings, I took one of the "ten-thou" and tightened it up to concert pitch without any problems. My twelve's playing beautifully, and I have no fear of the string breaking. Next time, I'll hook up a full set of D'Addario EXPs, and I don't think there'll be any problem.
Thanks again to everyone for all the amazing help; trust me, I'll be back here again soon!

'Bluegrass is wonderful music. I'm glad I originated it.'-Bill Monroe