Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses

Subject: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: steve_harris
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 06:39 PM

See below for the text of an email just sent to [e-mail]

Hi

I'm writing to you about the unsatisfactory situation with regard to the late night music sessions in the "Pavilion" on the camp site.

As you will know, late night music sessions have been a regular feature of the Festival for many years. Recently, these have come to be dominated by the 15-25 years age group - not only are these the future of Folk music, some of them have already played major gigs at this and other festivals. They are the future of Chippenham Folk Festival but if you and the security company treat them as badly as you did this year, they won't be.

They create this session because the other sessions at the festival earlier in the day but they are not particularly welcoming to younger people and since most are on licensed premises, not suitable for the youngest.

They are largely a responsible group of people and this year I particularly noted how assiduous they were at keeping the door closed to minimise noise leakage. Further, on the Saturday night, the musicians retreated into a side room such that as I approached the building, it was so quiet, I doubted that the session was in progress.

On the Saturday night, an employee of the security firm attempted to break up the session. I enquired of him who had ordered this. He told me it was someone called "Bob". On being pressed, he stated this was "Bob Penny". I asked for his (the security man's) ID and he refused to show it. (Last year, I caught someone claiming to be from the security company stealing my rucksack. He, too, wouldn't provide ID)

This security man stated that there was a problem not with the noise of the session but with the noise made by people leaving the session. His action in ejecting everyone in the building at one time resulted in far more noise than the usual trickle of people leaving in ones and twos throughout the night.

Further, I was camped less than 10 yards away from the edge of the car parking area and my observation was that the people using the catering made far more noise than the session.

Action Points:

* You should accept that a late night session is very likely to happen somewhere OR state up front that it won't be permitted. Simple management of customer expectations.

* Since the session is likely to happen, you should accept that the Pavilion as location has many practical advantages for all parties. Closing the Pavilion just moves the "problem" to somewhere more problematic.

* If the session *must* to end at a particular time (which I doubt), you must make this extremely clear by mentioning it in the programme, campsite information, etc. This will avoid the appearance of an arbitrary decision by a security man who likes throwing his weight around breaking up kids fun.

* If you really believe the session is a significant source of noise, designate the other end of the field to be a "quiet zone" suitable for those wanting to sleep during the usual hours.

Steve Harris - Cheltenham - ECeilidh List Owner
Also "Dance Addicts" list, see http://www.netservs.com/da/

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 08:21 PM

Steve.
Please keep us informed of the outcome.
Colyn.

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: fiddler
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 03:56 AM

I'll not ctiticise Bob the festival or security on this one, I fear the press line of bending the facts and that the whole gamut of proceedings may not have been adequately recorded or relayed to both you, the session players and festival customers. must add in no way do I doubt your sincerity or the truthfullness of your comments above.

I am sure Bob will be looking at this and other than reporting back results, can I suggest that all correspondance be addressed to Bob at the Chippenham Festival. Matters susch as this can never be resolved as part of an open (eventually) argument rather than a discussion (as we have seen B4)

However, Steve generally you seem to have some valid points.

My point form bitter experience in the past.

Sadly tolerance of late night music and activity has diminished over the years as the original perpertrators get older and turn in to GOM or GOW I was in my caravan just over the way form you and was not sure the session happened at all, even when I arrived back and sat outside.

Thats all,

Andy

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 04:13 AM

* If the session *must* to end at a particular time (which I doubt), you must make this extremely clear by mentioning it in the programme, campsite information, etc. This will avoid the appearance of an arbitrary decision by a security man who likes throwing his weight around breaking up kids fun.

Whatever the truth behind these events may prove to be, is not really the point but the above says it all. It is about perception and I trust that the organisers will take heed.

There is a time and a place for things to be 'organised' and there is a time and place for 'organisers' to step aside and concentrate on ensuring the whole purpose of the event is not threatened by well-intentioned attempts to control things that are probably best left alone.

There appears to be a need at most festivals for late-night informal gatherings or for places where the under 18s can go before then. These may not appeal to all but perhaps arrangements can be made to accomodate these needs?

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: Morticia
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 04:50 AM

I've seen with huge sadness the advent of professional security men at festivals.

They are inevitably officious and unpleasant;have no idea what folkies are about and could care less, but clearly think we are all under 18 with no sense of responsibility.

I've never noticed that they were actually needed for anything and they probably cause more trouble than they ever have prevented.

With respect to the original posters point, if I want to sleep peacefully all night, I'd stay at home. Festivals are supposed to be about drifting off to sleep with the sound of a session somewhere.

One of the reasons I am not going to Towersey this year is the security firm.They were/are appalling.

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: GUEST,Jane Bird
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 05:34 AM

Where a reputable firm is briefed properly and acting professional, a Security presence is exceedingly useful at some festivals. It is unfortunate perhaps, but all the same, reality, that some who behave inappropriately and need to be told so, sometimes repeatedly. I am thinking, for insteance, of people trying to blag entrance to a festival without a ticket. Sometimes such incidents are most safely and/or effectively dealt with by a trained and licenced security guard and well as/instead of a volunteer steward. I speak as someone has experience in both roles. The trick for the security firm is to behave professionally and appropriately, and to have a low level but visble profile.

I'm sorry to hear that there were problems with Chippenham's late night sessions this year. I feel that drifting off to sleep with the sound of a really good session is one of the essential festival experiences, and I love it. My friends and I were camped about 100 yards away from the Pavillion, and whilst three of us weren't woken by any associated noise, one of us was. However, there was far more disturbance created by the people not directly linked with the session, doing what people do when drunk/tired/at festivals (namely, having heart-to-hearts with their mates and trying to scrounge fags off each other). Again, I supose that is part of the festival experience too, but a slightly less pleasant one.

Having a clear demarkation of quiet and noisiers areas of the campsite is a great idea and it seems to work well at other festivals.

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: GUEST,Rich A
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 07:38 AM

Nice post, Steve.
I was there for most of the sessions and that security guard was totally over the top. There were a couple of people at the session who can't remain blameless but if it wasn't the attitude of the guard there wouldn't have been a problem.
Those guards normally work as security at football grounds in the Midlands and didn't seem to see and difference between folkies and aggresive football fans.
Bring back friendly stewards!!

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: BIGmrC
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 11:46 AM

I wasn't in the sessions at the Pavillion apart from the Sun night for a short time. I love the sessions, & agree its very good for people to play together. But do understand that the organisers are doing their best & the security guards.

I cant comment on what happened, but I do know they do treat people nicely. I take the time to talk the the security guards over the weekend in passing, even its a hello, as they are there for our safety. Most of the time, they are great & friendly.

& what i know from the law (but don't hold me to it), if the organises put the Pavillion Sessions in the program or memtion it, then the sessions would need to finish very early, possably before the last events have even finished.

Adam

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 12:31 PM

& what i know from the law (but don't hold me to it), if the organises put the Pavillion Sessions in the program or memtion it, then the sessions would need to finish very early, possably before the last events have even finished.

Not really true. And why should it be thought to be the case? Folk do have the right to freely express themselves musically and as long as this is not adversly affecting the rights of others - and as far as I am concerned should be encouraged to do so.

If any (suitable) venue was available where folk could make their own music (without affecting others) and it was made clear that it was participatory and not for the purposes of entertaining an audience - arrangements for this could be mentioned in any program.

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: cyder_drinker
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 06:21 PM

Being a sesh-a-holic (if I go to a festival, it's for the session scene and nothing else) - having read this thread, I'm glad I didn't go, and if the experiences related are accurate, I probably won't bother. I've had some great times at Chippenham festival - none of them, I hasten to add, before "last orders" - but this looks like the death knell of festivals as I used to know and love. Never mind, I can always go to a nice sedate campsite miles away from any "security guards" and drift off to recordings of sessions I made when sessions were still proper sessions.

"Those were the days, My friend,
We thought they'd never end...."

That told 'em, huh?

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: Cats at Work
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 04:55 AM

It is very sad when things get to this stage. I have sung in the late night sessions on the campsite for a serious number of years and expect sessions of this sort to happen. Nevertheless, one of the reasons we started the Fox and Hounds sings was because, even 12 years ago, the sessions were being stopped. Because of the nature of F&H, ie it's not a festival, it's just somewhere to go for a weekend to sing and if you want to play you can, but it's not a music session, you can sing all night without anyone complaining or stopping you.. and we have. If anyone wants to come and sing all night they are very welcome, and , as it is in the skittle alley, not the bar, people of all ages can join us. Whatever anyone says, sessions are going to happen - it's a folkie fact of life.

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: julian morbihan
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 05:44 AM

Interesting reading. So I will put in my twopennyworth.

The campsite security is there for your security. In this day and age there are people who will enter the site and steal anything and everything given a chance. There have also been incidents in the past of local drunks trying to drive cars at inappropriate times and speeds (thanks to the efforts of the security team, the last one ended up with a night in the cells and found his car with four flat tyres when he came to collect it on the Tuesday, oh dear what a shame...) And there is the problem of people abusing the festival by camping without buying a season ticket, this effectively puts up the price to those who do pay for them. And don't use the excuse of saying you only attend the free events. Come on a different weekend and enjoy the facilities and entertainment the town usually provides!

Current festival goers now have far higher expectations of the facilities to be provided at festival campsites than the previous generation. Never mind about health and safety regulations the campers would throw a wobbly at just the thought of a pit with a bit of gutter piping acting as the gents urinals! And as to not being able to have a hot shower in the morning...

Getting on the the nitty gritty of the late night session, I cannot comment on the actual incident this year as I was not there at the time. But you do get over officious people in every walk of life. It is not the organisers aim to spoil peoples enjoyment of making music. However,if the festival advertised, or put the event in the programme, it would then come under the terms of the new ludicrous Licencing laws and would require an event licence, at a cost, and limited hours. So it would be self defeating.

May be the answer would be to change the government and get one that might repeal this most stupid of laws or at least change it to one that allows people to make music whenever and whereever they want to, within the usual boundaries of common courtesy. But that is pie in the sky.

If you don't like the stewards that are available, why not become one yourself and see what a thankless task it can be.

So don't take it out on Bob and his wife Gill who, with the help of many others, put this great festival together with out any reward. They are unpaid volunteers! So can we please have some positive posts saying thank you to the selfless work these people put into giving you such a wonderful festival.

I don't know about putting in my own twopenny worth, I reckon you get a good fourpenny worth there!

Thanks for the opportunity to put in my personal opinions.

I hope to see you all at next year's Chippenham Folk Festival, 25th - 28th May, 2007.

Cheers

Julian

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: fiddler
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 09:20 AM

Julian makes some fine points.

As well as looking at the aspirations of festival goers also check teh Pop festivals and similar gatherings act - a veritable tome aimed at making life safe for festival customers and ensuring that organisors get enough sleep prior to the festival - it works better than TV!

I'd vote for Bob and Gill any day - like all of us he is not perfect and would love to receive well reasoned well presented comments about the festival as a wjole or even specific incidents that may have had positive or detrimental effects on thsoe attendning the festival.

Andy - Again

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 10:50 AM

However,if the festival advertised, or put the event in the programme, it would then come under the terms of the new ludicrous Licencing laws and would require an event licence, at a cost, and limited hours. So it would be self defeating.

Sorry but I feel this is a cop-out. Where there is a will there is always a way and it depends what is worded. Enabling this to carry on would only come under the new licensing laws if it qualified as a a licensable Regulated Entertainment or was serving late night food.

People making non-amplified music for their own pleasure is none of these things. Without the organisers making the attempt - the idea that a way of making the festival policy clear to the attendees, stewards and sucurity staff to enable this informal music making to carry on without being prevented (by those acting for the festival organisers themselves) - is too difficult or too costly is not acceptable.

Given the sort of things and late night noise that is going on in the midle of the town I am sure that as long as there were no complaints - the local authority and the police would be only too glad to help.

Perhaps this could be looked at, a festival policy towards informal music making developed and a serious attempt to solve the problem be made - in time to ensure that similar incidents are not repeated at next year's event?

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: Polly Squeezebox
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 11:59 AM

"Given the sort of things and late night noise that is going on in the midle of the town I am sure that as long as there were no complaints - the local authority and the police would be only too glad to help"

Okay, it's time I came out of the closet! The large, impressive building over the road from the campsite is the local Court - that's where I work every day as the Court Duty Officer for Probation. Add to that the fact that I've led a ceilidh band for over 27 years, have previously sat on the Executive Committee of Chippenham FF and the National Activities Committee of EFDSS (however, I am no longer on any of those or any festival committee) and my husband used to be the volunteer organiser of the campsite and I am a 'local'. I think maybe I can have an 'informed' opinion.

So ...

Yes, there would be complaints from the locals - there have been many in the past.

No, neither the local authority nor the Police would be "only too glad to help" - they've proved it in the past.

Yes, the local drunks and druggies would love to see a late night session advertised in the programme - and they'd all turn up in droves and really disrupt it and cause even bigger problems! The Festival does not need the kind of attention from local youths that has caused the frequent Saturday night incidences of mass Affray, public order act offences, and violence.

Yes, yes, yes the campsite does need a proper, professional security firm ensuring the safety of both people and property. Tents are NOT secure, the local thieves and addicts are very well aware of this and take advantage of it at any and every opportunity. Professional security guards have the necessary qualification now needed for this kind of stewarding. Volunteer stewards should not have to contend with the kind of response they would encounter if challenging some of the local criminal/drug fraternity.

The noisy event that was organised in the centre of Chippenham on the Saturday night actually did the Festival a service - in that it kept noisy, drunken non-folkies away from Festival events. It is unfortunate if the Festival receives some 'bad press' because of it - but the Police know that it was not a Festival event, I made sure of that!

Bob and Gill and the rest of the Festival Committee do an excellent job - as stated by Julian. They do it as volunteers. Plenty of people are happy with the way the festival is both organised and run - or they would not buy tickets. Bob, in particular, spends a lot of his time (when he could be working on his own business) attending meetings with both council and Police and other local 'bodies'. Bob and Gill do the best they can to try to keep everybody happy under the constraints that are laid down for them.
I KNOW THAT BOB INTENDS TO RESPOND BY E-MAIL TO THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS THREAD - perhaps he should have been given the courtesy of making his reply before this thread was made public!

Personally, I've never found the need to play in a session into the early hours of the morning - I much prefer to play when fully awake and not under the influence of alcohol. Maybe some people need the late night/alcohol thing in order to convince themselves that they're making 'beautiful music'! If that's the case, then I suggest they organise it in their own back yard and not complain when others APPEAR not to be doing so.

I cannot comment on the specific incident with one particular security guard as I was not present - it does, though, seem as though the person involved might have had an unfortunate lack of people skills - but what was he having to contend with/being confronted with/how many people was he trying to quieten with how much back up?

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: julian morbihan
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 12:05 PM

I don't want to get into a discussion about the Licencing law on this tread. There are enough other threads on the subject.

But I suggest that "The Shambles" takes a look at those threads before making comment on that law. Putting the late night sing in the festival programme would constitute advertising and thus prevent it being considered a spontaneous happening. The serving of food is not relevant in any condition. The festival is quite legal in having a hot food wagon at the campsite, with or without music.

However "The Shambles", I am sure you are right that the police are quite happy with all the events put on by the festival, so long as they are within the law. As to the other late night music activities in the town centre they are on licenced premises that have ticked all the correct boxes and are allowed live music and as such have nothing whatsoever to do with the festival.

Julian - again

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 12:41 PM

Putting the late night sing in the festival programme would constitute advertising and thus prevent it being considered a spontaneous happening.

There is nothing in the words of this legislation that means that 'advertising' or rather explaining a policy or informing festival attendees where informal music making was taking place would turn it in to a licensable activity or prevent it.

It may well mean that it could not be claimed to be spontanous but as folk make informal music on on a regular basis every year - it would be unlikely to qualify as that anyway. But there is nothing in the words of this Act that exempts anything because it is spontaneous and the word does not appear in the words of the Act. However:

The Act's Statutory Guidance states -

Cultural strategies
3.47

Where there is any indication that such events are being deterred by licensing requirements, statements of licensing policy should be re-visited with a view to investigating how the situation might be reversed. Broader cultural activities and entertainment may also be affected.

Where there is a will and sufficient knowledge of the legislation -rather than using it as an excuse - there is always a way. There does not appear to be that will. It certainly is poor legislation but it is what it is - not what you may believe it to be. For the fact remains that it was not the police or the local authority that were preventing the informal music making on any grounds - but the festival's own staff acting under instructions from the organisers.

The serving of food is not relevant in any condition. The festival is quite legal in having a hot food wagon at the campsite, with or without music.

The provision of late night food does now require Premise Licence permission and is only legal if such permission has been granted by the local authority (which I suspect it has). And if the festival has not obtained this permission and the local authority is OK about this - the local authority would be unlikely to object to a stated policy towards enabling informal music making on site also. Especially as this would mean that late night festival attendees were not forced to add to the numbers and noise in the middle of town.

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 12:53 PM

Yes, the local drunks and druggies would love to see a late night session advertised in the programme - and they'd all turn up in droves and really disrupt it and cause even bigger problems! The Festival does not need the kind of attention from local youths that has caused the frequent Saturday night incidences of mass Affray, public order act offences, and violence.

Not sure why you would think that any of those you judge so harshly here would buy or read the festival programme (or need to stagger so far) but surely if or when such undesirables do turn up - that is exacty why you go on to explain why a professional security firm needs to be employed (probably as a licensing condition)?

What is needed is a clearly stated policy on informal music making for the benefit of all festival attendees and any security staff - so that the baby does not get thrown out with the bathwater.

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 01:47 PM

Julian & Polly, I think you both make perfectly reasonable points although if you go back to Steve's original message that started this thread I don't think you'll find that Steve was actually making any criticism of Bob & Gill & the rest of the committee or the way they run the festival (well done them), or suggesting that there is no need for professional security on the site.
All I read into Steve's action points is that it might be a good idea to brief the security team in future years on what is expected with regards to the late night session, and maybe officially letting the participants know too, so that misunderstanding and poor people skills don't cause the same problems again.
Seems sensible to me....

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: JudeL
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 03:02 PM

Most of the security people on that site at Chippenham were those that have provided security for the festival before and have developed a sensible live & let live attitude. Yes there was one who was, according to his brother (who was working secuirty the next day) "being a bit of a prat". Yes at one point there was a bunch revellers who were outside the pavillion who were very noisy. They were not just singing but shouting at each other and generally being a bit of a nuisance. We were in a caravan not far away & it wasn't an apt level of noise for the time of day. And yes, THEY did need reminding to tone it down. Local residents would have had a legitimate cause for complaint & antagonising locals is never a good idea for a festival. As the security guys had no doubt been told. It leads to less co-operation more restrictions and limits on late night sessions. The daft bit was that instead of just suggesting they either went to bed or moved inside with the door shut he then took it upon himself to try to call a halt to all of it, even those who weren't then causing a problem. Which went down like the proverbial lead balloon.

As has been said his people skills were not of the highest quality or in the words of his brother he was being a prat.

On a slightly different note it was his brother who this year when he was doing an early morning walk round the field to help keep us safe, encountered a sight you don't see very often - a belly dancer undulating her way along the roadway , practicing her dancing & wearing only a rather drunken smile. I'm told he decided this was something his sister (who was also part of the security team) would be much better at dealing with than him & he beat a hasty retreat.....

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: Morticia
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 03:12 PM

And I'd like to reiterate, in case there is any misunderstanding, that I have absolutely no grievance with Chippenham. I was only there for a day and couldn't comment on this particular incident anyway BUT I will stand by my comment about overly officious and unpleasant security at other festivals.

I think the reason may be that they are accustomed to working at pop festivals and, by and large, dealing with youngsters, although why they ( youngsters) should be spoken to any differently from any other member of the public, I don't know, but it happens.

It may be that people securing work in this profession quite often lack 'people skills' but have lots and lots of ' I like to throw my weight about for no good reason' skills.

It may be that they aren't properly briefed or didn't understand the briefing. I don't know and I don't care, I just know that it is a move that has had negative consequences for me personally and I intend to avoid those festivals where this kind of security is used.

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: steve_harris
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 03:31 PM

Personally, I've never found the need to play in a session into the early hours of the morning - I much prefer to play when fully awake and not under the influence of alcohol. Maybe some people need the late night/alcohol thing in order to convince themselves that they're making 'beautiful music'! If that's the case, then I suggest they organise it in their own back yard and not complain when others APPEAR not to be doing so

This is unfair. Many sessions are on licensed premises and would not welcome many of the young musicians from this late night session. There was very little drink. As for the beauty of the music, sometimes it is but more than that, it's exciting

I cannot comment on the specific incident with one particular security guard as I was not present - it does, though, seem as though the person involved might have had an unfortunate lack of people skills - but what was he having to contend with/being confronted with/how many people was he trying to quieten with how much back up?

A good and interesting point. He was trying to stop less than 20 musicians. Although several other security personnell were on duty, none of the others took part in an operation that lasted at least half an hour. Had (say) 3 others attended, I think the determination of the musicians might well have evaporated much sooner. I did wonder if his several exits from the scene were to try and get the others to attend and if they were unwilling to break up something so harmless?

Several valid points have been made about the benefits of security people and the friendliness of most of them. This guy was an exception.

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: Hawker
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 05:33 PM

Perhaps I was in a bubble, but I had a great time, never saw any officious security folk, found everybody, including a lost, rolling drunk, jovial and friendly. The only thing I didn't enjoy was the 'entertainment' till the early hours which was not a festival event but was LOUD! I enjoy being lulled to sleep by a good music session, at Miskin this year I hunted out the perpetrators of such a great session the next morning - and thanked them.
No complaints here, and I know that Bob missed an event he wanted to go to, because he stopped and helped haul a very drunk (and somewhat abusive) non-festival goer out of the river. No complaints here, and it was my first Chippenham.
Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 05:38 PM

Yes - the sessions are great and have a really valuable place at the festival. I don't often go, but I have never been disturbed by the music as I sleep. When I have been into the Pavilion , yes there is music, but also lots of chatting - a vatal part of networking and bonding. I know the late sessions spiced up the festival for my teenagers and has kept them more interested in folky stuff - it was the late sessions that inspired my son to learn to play the tin whistle following a Chip. Fest. when he felt left out.

Bob and Jill do a fantastic job. I get the feeling that apart from the sescurity guard being too 'heavy', a few campers have complained over the years. When things change is is usually in responce to complainers and inevitably involves more rule and regulations.

Long live the late session, and mindfull people who respect those sleeping when they return to their tent.

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 11:11 PM

I was not at Chippenham this year, so can not comment on the specific situation that arose. However, for several years I worked with Pollys' husband as a campsite steward at Chippenham, and fully support everything she says about the problems that have been encountered in the past.

Local residents (and some folkies) have complained about the late night noise.
Volunteer campsite stewards have had to deal with drunks and druggies attracted to the late sessions, because its 'somewhere to go', and there has been little, and on occasions, no support from the authorities and police.

!Not sure why you would think that any of those you judge so harshly here would buy or read the festival programme (or need to stagger so far)...'

Chippenham campsite used to be a quiet little backwater on the edge of town that in the main went un-noticed. Since then, the festival (and its profile) has grown, and La Fleche Avenue (Flesh Alley) - the Ring Road that skirts the Playing Field - and the housing estates beyond have been built. Who needs a programme? There are plenty of locals going home that way, and more that will just turn up to see whats on. Not all of them are particularly pleasant people. Harshly judged? Unfortunately not!

The town has changed, the festival has changed, and the job changed too. If you want happy smiling volunteer folkie stewards, try taking the job on yourself. I'm with Polly, it needs professional stewards now.

Whoever does the job, it needs to be done properly, but also needs co-operation from the festival goers. You don't always get it, and you decisions aren't always popular. You can't please all of the people........

cheers

Brian

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 02:05 AM

Festivals are celebrations and feasting.

If a festival is held - not only will you have to expect high spirits - that is rather the whole point.

The role of organisers, volunteer stewards or paid secrity firms is not to judge or limit these high spirits but to enable them.

Other countries seem to understand this but the English do seem to really struggle with this concept. And although lip-service is paid to it - just the thought of anything truly spontaneous (especially involving music making) seems to bring out the worst of the 'nanny' in us and examples of anything truly spontaneous actually happening, seems to scare us to death.

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 03:03 AM

I would prefer not to comment since I was not there but I know Bob and Gill and the committee do a great job.

It seems that this is becoming a problem, in that late night sessions can attract trouble. Fine if you are miles away, (Warwick, Sidmouth) not much good if you are close enough to people for them to be disturbed. It is not a problem of high spirits it is a problem of noise.

When people were campaigning against the Licensing Act 2003 one of the arguments used was that folk festivals were havens of legal tranquility. It seems that it is changing.

Shame.

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 03:16 AM

When people were campaigning against the Licensing Act 2003 one of the arguments used was that folk festivals were havens of legal tranquility. It seems that it is changing.

I think you have to put those comments in the context of the week-end noise that is happening in Chippenham town centre (and just about every town).

In comparison with this - the high spirits of Chippenham festival is a haven of legal tranquility. Any measures suggested for keeping late-night festival attendees from adding to the usual drunken town centre chaos would I thought be most welcome by those who have to try and police it.

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 05:40 AM

'The role of organisers, volunteer stewards or paid security firms is not to judge or limit these high spirits but to enable them.'

The whole point of having organisers, volunteer stewards and paid security is to use their judgement. Without judgement, you let anything happen, and admit anybody and everybody, regardless of their intentions, regardless of whether they are ticket holders and regardless of whether the event/session/gathering is disruptive to others. The sad fact is that the 'haven of legal tranquility' does not just happen, it is maintained by organisers, volunteer stewards and paid security along with the responsible behavour of MOST festival goers.

In the past volunteer stewards at Chippenham have had to deal with vandals, thieves, pushers, druggies high on God knows what, druggies openly using needles, agressive drunks, and non ticket holders just coming to look for the late night action. All locals, all there to exploit the festival. I'm glad to say that those inside the late night sessions (me included, sometimes) have remained blissfully unaware of such problems, because somebody is using their judgement.

If you have any doubts about any of this, re-read Pollys post. That impressive building and her job exist because Chippenham, like any other town has its problems. Those problem don't go away for the festival weekend, they have to be managed. Thankfully the festival only has to deal with it for one weekend a year.

cheers

Brian

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 07:41 AM

Whatever the external problems may be - the issue point raised in Steve's original post and his four sensible suggestions concern the manner in which an internal festival issue is addressed.

I trust that these suggestions will be examined by the organisers for the future.

Anyone camping at any folk event who expects the peace of an Eastbourne rest home - is in the wrong place and at the wrong time. It seems perfectly feasable to designate areas of the site where a relatively more peaceful nights sleep can be had and areas where informal music making can not only take place but be encouraged.

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 08:28 AM

As has already been said, there have many complaints in the past, from the locals - the residents of the houses next to the Playing Field. Their support is essential to the festival. As JudeL said 'Antagonising locals is never a good idea for a festival'

One mans music is another mans noise.

Whether, Chippenham festival can find a suitable location for a late night informal session or not, the fact remains that the Pavillion sessions have been the source of complaints, and a magnet to undesirables in the past.

Go pitch your tent somewhere else does not solve the problem.

cheers

Brian

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: fiddler
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 10:55 AM

this is turning into a golfish thread

and round and round and round!

Steve, let me know how you get on pm if needed.

Andy

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 11:21 AM

Whether, Chippenham festival can find a suitable location for a late night informal session or not, the fact remains that the Pavillion sessions have been the source of complaints, and a magnet to undesirables in the past.

That may or may not have be the case in the past. However, that does not appear to have been the case this time. The problem was not caused by external complaints. It was possibly motivated for fear of them but mainly it was lack of communication and a clear policy.

Go pitch your tent somewhere else does not solve the problem.

In this case it would certainly help to ease any problem. But as can be seen - a security man deciding to prevent the informal music making at a folk festival, does not solve the problem either

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: JudeL
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 01:49 PM

As I said we were camped not far away in the first row & for the most part the session itself and the noise level from it did not appear to be causing a problem.

The points I would raise, because they are ones that may be able to be addressed & improved are
1) There was some disruptive/unwelcome noise but it was not coming from inside the session it eas being made by those outside who were so intent on enjoying themselves that they were not being considerate of others.
2) one of the security guards (for whatever reason, lack of training/ fear/ officiousness) tried to be a bit heavy handed.

In both issues some thing that may help is to review the information for festival goers emphasising the need to have consideration for other and keep noise made outside to a minimum and to tailor the briefing & training for the secuity guards to ensure the low key approach needed..

That said I'm not a festival organiser, and they do work very hard to enable the event to run as smooth as poss. & often they only hear the complaints because the punters don't notice when things work.

Cheers JudeL

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: BIGmrC
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 10:46 AM

"In both issues some thing that may help is to review the
information for festival goers emphasising the need to have consideration for other and keep noise made outside to a
minimum... "

The festival does state in the program (print & on the website)
"Please go home quietly and respect the residents already
asleep. Thanks."

http://www.glance.chippfolk.co.uk

Adam

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 06:10 PM

That in contrast to the message given to the rest of the town over this bank holiday weekend - which seems to be to get drunk and make as much noise as possible.

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: MBSGeorge
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 05:19 AM

How about a simple sign on the door saying please end all sessions by......! I was there on Saturday evening briefly and I couldn't tell that there was anything going on in there until I opened the door. It is completely unecessary for jumped up power junkies to interrupt sessions - they do have the option to turn down folk festivals if they don't like folk music!

There are plenty of burly blokes that steward who I'm sure would be only too happy to protect the festival after all, they steward so that they can attend and wouldn't want trouble at any festival.

George

Subject: RE: Chippenham Festival Late Night Music Ses
From: MBSGeorge
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 05:49 AM

P.s. - I am a Local and as one of these terrifying species I know that a lot of the people who don't like folk go away for the weekend so the danger of complaints isn't as high as everyone seems to think - besides - the late night session can't be as loud as the factory/house building and that's there all year.

George