Concertina

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Alan Day
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 06:09 PM

I suggest you also click onto Concertina.net where you will find written and download concertina music of all types and systems.
Like this site I am sure you will be made welcome.
If you go onto the site click onto my name and more free download MP3s are available.
Al

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Chip2447
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 01:12 AM

My thanks to all for the wounnerful information found here. Especially to Foolestroupe. I too, am learning to play my concertina and being a rank/hack musician I found the whole chord thing wound up kicking me in the hindquarters. I have been enlightened...

Thanks...
Chip

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 07:32 PM

And this workshop on Saturday 8th. July is for all concertina systems:

Lewes Arms Workshop No 65
SANDRA KERR
All Systems
CONCERTINA WORKSHOP
Places £30
Saturday 8th. July 2006
10.45 a.m.- 4.45 p.m.
The Lewes Arms, Mount Place, Lewes,
East Sussex BN7 1YH UK
        
Sandra Kerr has long been a brilliant & influential singer & player of the English concertina. She specializes in the distinctive traditional tunes & playing styles of North-East England. Her singing ranges from the purely traditional to songs of social justice.

Sandra is one of the core teachers on the Newcastle University traditional music degree course & alongside this has a busy performance & workshop schedule. Her songwriting rates alongside the best in the UK, funny, acerbic & poignant by turns, & her musicianship has won many plaudits from national & international reviewers.
        
The workshop will concentrate on the Northumbrian repertoire (including 3/2 hornpipes, rants & slow airs) & aspects of style: playing with sensitivity, using ornamentation & chords. One section will also concentrate on song & tune accompaniment.
        
'She won't want us to go on about her long & distinguished career - but it is! A delightful performer & a great teacher & musician.' (Yorkshire Dales Workshops)

IN THE EVENING SANDRA KERR PERFORMS AT THE LEWES ARMS FOLK CLUB
(Admission £5: advance tickets from address at end of form)

Provisional Timetable

10.45         Registration & coffee; order lunch
        (Refreshments are not included.)

11.00        Airs: developing choice in touch & dynamics & the use of ornamentation.

13.00         Lunch

14.00         Hornpipes & rants - playing with lightness & energy.

15.30         Tea/coffee break

16.00 - 16.45        The concertina as an accompanying instrument - chords, countermelodies & crunchiness ...

Booking is essential as numbers are limited.
Maps & accommodation lists will be sent in advance.

BOOKING FORM
I would like to attend the workshop on 8th. July 2006. I enclose a cheque for £30.00 for workshop fees (refreshments not included).

Name:

Address:


Telephone:

E-mail address:

Concertina system:

No. of tickets for evening performance:
(£5 each, include SAE for these)
Tick for map:         
Tick for accommodation list:

Please make cheques payable to Lewes Arms Folk Club & send with this booking form to: Valmai Goodyear, 20, St. John's Terrace,
LEWES, East Sussex BN7 2DL
Tel. [phone]
e-mail:[e-mail]
Website: http://members.aol.com/lewesarmsfolk

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: concertina ceol
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 06:47 PM

that was me cookie expired :-(

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 06:39 PM

Back to the original question:

Kimber, Father Ken, John Kirkpatrick - what's the link? Cotswold Morris & Anglo (okay JK has bounced off to border now)

Scan Tester - Anglo dance music.

To me Anglo is the authentic "folk" concertina, but ultimately you need to decide for yourself which one is right for you by trying them out either at festivals or music shops - hobgoblin or music room.

You'll need D/G Anglo to play along with the melodeons for Morris and C/G to attend all the workshops. You can play C/G for morris (in G and D) but it is not so easy to accompany yourself and you are playing the instrument "inside-out".

Have fun!

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 07:36 AM

Thank you kindly sir! I will try and understand this I have printed off (cut and paste)


Mr Foolestroupe thanks

Ray

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 06:43 AM

Basic (minimum) chords tutorial: (specially for padgett)

Assumed knowledge - Major Scales and what they are!

Firstly, we will be dealing with the Major scale only.

In each scale, number the notes from the start - write this down.
Example Key of C:
C D E F G A B C'
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

The 'basic chords' for each scale (for most 'folk music') are based on the notes numbered 1, 4, & 5, and are called the I, IV, & V chords.

A 'basic chord' in a scale involves the 1st, 3rd, and 5th notes of the sequence created by counting upwards from the start position of the chord 'base note' (NOTHING to do with Bass!) It may also optionally include the octave of the 'base note'.

Write these down under each Major Scale, C, G & D.

Example Key of C: (C' is the octave of C)
C D E F G A B C'
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

I
C E G (C')

IV
F A C' (F')

V
G B D (G')

The other scales are left as an exercise for the student! You will notice that some of the chords for one scale will repeat in another scale (but as another 'position').

Get these under your belt for starters - just a few at a time, preferably one scale at a time. It is possible to get most of the flavour of a particular chord by playing only any two notes of that chord, but there's a lot more to it than just that!

The next step is to notice that you can 'invert' these basic chords - what that means is that the 'starting note' or 'base note' of the chord is not the lowest pitched tone. Hence, logically, 1st inversion, 2nd inversion. Try finding these, if possible. This too is left as an exercise for the more advanced student!!

The V7 Chord.
You may often see a chord with this format eg, G7

While you can get most of the flavour of this chord by just playing the ordinary V chord - as the 7th note of the scale is most likely being played in the melody - this chord is built by adding the 7th note of the sequence.

G7
G B D F (the G' octave is usually omitted)

This differs from a normal G chord.

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: IanC
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 06:34 AM

Padgett

Keep on rubbing your head and patting your tummy. You'll get there.

:-)

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 06:15 AM

Right so I am a trad unaccompanied singer and play tunes many from what I sing or well known and I am getting to know the basic 2 rows on a G/D of a 3 row Anglo and I know my way left and right hand to the little finger!! on the right [this make sense]?

I have basic undrstanding of G and C and D and I find that playing the tune as well as singing is like nodding your head and rubbing your tummy at the same time ~

So I need chords!

Which chords do I need as a minimum on notes on the Anglo, anybody please?
Ray

No I dont play guitar and I have printed off full notes for the Anglo 3 row fingering

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: captainbirdseye
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 11:44 AM

jOHN KIRKPATRICKis indeed a superb player and can be heard on BOXING CLEVER,along with harry Scurfield, Tim Laycock,Dick Miles, available from me. Dick Miles.

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Blowzabella
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 12:12 PM

That's great news, Alan - and thanks for letting me know. I thought he would be - a very nice chap.

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: GUEST,Alan Day
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 10:05 AM

Just to let you know Blowz I followed up your information and Tim is on board.
Many thanks
Al

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Alan Day
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 09:02 AM

Countess, Good excuse if you are on stage and make a mistake though.
Al

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 03:52 AM

Concertina.com has very clear fingering charts which you can enlarge to full screen or print off. Doesn't make you able to play in a day but at least it stops you making excuses like 'that button's moved since yesterday':

Anglo

English

Crane/Hayden/McCann

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Alan Day
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 03:13 AM

Hallo Blowz, long time no see,his address or Email would be useful many thanks.
Uncle Jaque I cannot understand your button layout description Anglo buttons have two,three and rare four rows of buttons parrallel none seem to go down.If they are as I have described try to work out the notes on the push and on the pull and write them down.Go and buy a Guitar or piano chord book which gives each note of a chord and start introducing them in your playing.I do a free tutor for chord starting if you PM me with your address ,I will send you one.
Al

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: GUEST,Uncle Jaque
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 09:36 AM

A couple of years ago my Wife gifted me an Anglo. It's not marked as to make, but I think that it's probably a Bastardi.
Not a bad little box to learn on, despite some "twanginess" in the lower notes that we could do without.

I read the book for about a half hour, ran some scales, then promptly began picking out tunes by ear. When I've got the Barbeque goin, I sit out on the porch and noodle around with it. Mostly sea chanteys and Celtic stuff, with a little Gospel and Civil War music just for good measure.

It's getting so I can pick out the melody of some tunes pretty well, but have to start working on chords next. Do the buttons running down parallell behind the front row of buttons have anything to do with chords? I can't seem to figure out what else they might be good for.

UJ's Concertina on Left - "Gilead" Walnut Flute in Center.

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 07:50 AM

Booking has just opened for John Kirkpatrick's all-day Anglo concertina workshop at the Lewes Arms, Sussex, UK on Saturday 16th. September. John performs at the Lewes Arms Folk Club in the evening. Advance tickets are available at £6 each. The room only seats fifty, so this is a wonderful opportunity to hear John in an intimate setting.

Tootle pip,

Valmai

Lewes Arms Workshop No 66
JOHN KIRKPATRICK
ANGLO CONCERTINA WORKSHOP
Places £30
Saturday 16th. September 2006
10.45 a.m.- 4.45 p.m.
The Lewes Arms, Mount Place, Lewes,
East Sussex BN7 1YH

        John Kirkpatrick is a superb singer, great writer, fine dancer & the best English squeezer bar none. He is one of the great solo acts on the folk scene & has played with the Albions, Steeleye Span, Brass Monkey, Band of Hope & many more.
        
The workshop will be an intensive look at playing the Anglo concertina in the 'melody + chords' style, aimed at players with some experience. Using the simplest of tunes John will cover the three-chord trick in the 'home' key and then push on into chord patterns for as many other keys as time will allow.

IN THE EVENING JOHN KIRKPATRICK PERFORMS AT THE LEWES ARMS FOLK CLUB
(admission £6; advance tickets available from the address at end of this form)

JOHN KIRKPATRICK ANGLO CONCERTINA WORKSHOP
Saturday 16th. September 2006

Provisional Timetable
(Music will be sent out in advance)

10.45   Registration & coffee; order lunch

11.00         The 3-chord trick in the home key – playing the Anglo by memorizing patterns rather than learning notes.

12.30         Lunch

13.30        Chords in the next handiest keys & an approach to minor tunes.

15.00        Tea/coffee break

15.15 - 16.45        Going out to Mars on the Anglos – a masterclass session for problem tunes – summing up.

N.B. Booking is recommended as numbers are limited. Refreshments are not included.
Maps & accommodation lists will be sent in advance if requested.
Lewes Arms Folk Club
c/o 20, St. John's Terrace, LEWES,
East Sussex BN7 2DL
Tel. [phone]
e-mail: [e-mail]
Website: http://members.aol.com/lewesarmsfolk/


JOHN KIRKPATRICK ANGLO CONCERTINA WORKSHOP
Saturday 16th. September 2006

BOOKING FORM
I would like to attend the workshop on 16th. September 2006
. I enclose a cheque for £30.00 (refreshments not included).

Name:

Address:



Telephone:
E-mail address:

No. of tickets for evening performance:
(£6 each; include SAE for these)

Tick for map:         
Tick for accommodation list:

Please make cheques payable to Lewes Arms Folk Club and send with this booking form to: Valmai Goodyear, 20, St. John's Terrace,
LEWES, East Sussex BN7 2DL
Tel. [phone]
e-mail: [e-mail]
Website: http://members.aol.com/lewesarmsfolk/

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: GUEST,Blowzabella at work
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 06:41 AM

Hi Alan,

Great to hear you are thinking about including Tim Laycock. Do you have his contact details - I'm sure he will be amenable? If not, I can pass them on to you (I am a member, so can PM you, just not logged in at the moment!). On his 'Shillingstone Moss' recording he also did a wonderful tribute to Tommy Williams - have you heard it?

Blowz

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Paul Burke
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 03:41 AM

Is Pam Bishop still around? she used to play duet in Birmingham in the 70s.

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Alan Day
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 05:36 PM

A few more Ralphie to wet your whistle
Iris Bishop,Dave Cornell,Dave Barnert USA,Nick Robertshaw Now USA(X UK) ,Gavin Atkin and Stuart Estell.
I have a lot more to contact of course.
For those interested I will let you know more next year on this project and about end of August for English
(release about November ish)
I am sure you will be great Ralphie and I will pass your good wishes on to Jean.
Al

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 05:22 PM

Not all the duet chords are triangles - C major is a straight line. And F#maj7 is, errr hang on a mo...

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: EBarnacle
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 12:34 PM

Back to the original question: MorrisLoverJohn, what do you think at this point? Have you made any tentative decisions?

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: captainbirdseye
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 12:13 PM

dear ralphie, you forgot to mentin the hayden duetyou canuse the same fingringfor four different keys c f bflat g,with ease.best wishes CaptainBirdseye.

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 03:36 AM

quote

"In simple terms, a triangle may give you a major chord or a minor chord"

But....

Depending on what key you are playing in (and this is what I mean about the basic 'Home Keys' of the McCann!), aren't some of those 'Minor Triads' just exactly the related ones you 'need' anyway?

unquote

What complete bollocks. I've been playing the triangle for years and have never had more than a single note out of it.

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Fliss
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 07:29 PM

Thanks for the translation Valmai:-) and for the news of Frances. Must email her and see how she is.
fxx

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: GUEST,tony geen
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 07:42 AM

Ralphie -

Sorry, no more I can tell you. She was at Kilve in about 2004 so the WCCP would know.

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 07:59 PM

'Sex with a concertina is rarely accomplished discreetly.' (Barker).

Frances is now living in Sussex and did a good workshop at the Lewes Arms a couple of years ago, but has regrettably been out of circulation for a while.

Tootle pip,

Valmai

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Fliss
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 05:40 PM

Um translation for those of us who only managed a year of latin in the Lower IVth!! Something about it being rarely quiet?

Yes it was Steve Goodyear's session. I went along with a friend also learning concertina, it was more to her style as she sticks rigidly to the dots. I also went to a workshop there run by my friend Frances Wilkins of Solen. Ive had a number of lessons with her in 2001/2. Shes one of the best ENglish players around and is still in her mid 20s.. grrr

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 08:28 AM

Morrisloverjohn - whichever concertina system you choose, you might like to bear in mind this warning from the poet Lautrator:

'Concertina tacite raro perfectus est coitus.'

Valmai (Lewes)

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Alan Day
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 07:53 AM

Hallo Valmai
I have Dave Cornell but not John Morgan.I have in fact got his details and not contacted him yet.Many thanks

Sorry Morris for this thread drift
Al

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 06:35 AM

Alan, have you got the duet players David Cornell (American) and John Morgan (Welsh)? They have both been tutors at Concertinas at Witney; Dave Townsend would have contact details.

Valmai (Lewes)

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 04:33 AM

Wow! You've tracked down the elusive Megly!!
Please send him my very best wishes.
Now, that is someone who really is a Concertina player.
Yes, Yes...I'm still practising. Looking at the rest of your proposed line-up for the Duet CD, I'll still be practising at the start of next year!
Cheers Ralphie

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Alan Day
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 03:58 AM

Sorry for magnificent read daring.Wrong flying machine.
Al

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Alan Day
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 03:57 PM

I have not really started on Duet International, but I am collecting recordings along the way and names.Many or most of the names you mentioned Ralphie I will try to include and to Guest I already have two fantastic recordings of Tim Laycock ,but have to ask his permission to use them.One is him singing "Stormalong" and the other That Magnificent Man on the Flying Trapeze"both live performances with a very enthusiastic audience.Stormalong certainly shows his ability with playing the Duet.I may have found some rare recordings of Tommy Williams,which I am investigating.The best news of all is that after my phone call Jean Megly has come out of retirement,which is fantastic news for the Duet Concertina World.I have a wonderful recording of him playing a set of Swedish tunes.With a few archive performances of Perci Henri,Alexander Prince,Brigadier Archie Burgess,Proffessor McCann ,without doing much yet, it is already sounding quite exciting.
Al

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Fidjit
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 04:36 AM

Sorry should have been East Anglian Traditional Music Trust. (Whatever) And the concertina.org also have contacts everywhere not just Bristol.

Chas

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Fidjit
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 04:32 AM

A good workshop is East Anglian Tradition Music Association, in March. Well worth the visit just to see all the instruments (130+ last march!)They also have stalls as well with loads of different types for sale, which you can try.

Chas

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Fidjit
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 04:07 AM

Check out concertina.org They have links to workshops in the Bristol area.

Chas

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 03:36 AM

Ah, Fliss, that sounds like my bro-in-law Steve Goodyear's monthly session. What system do you play? I would PM you but I don't know how to do it.

The Lewes Arms Folk Club also has workshops this year with

John Kirkpatrick
(Anglo system only, full day, Saturday 16th. September, £30)

Alistair Anderson (tunes of Will Atkinson for all concertina systems, Saturday 28th. October, morning only, £15).

The tutors perform at the Lewes Arms Folk Club in the evening. I'm keeping a list of interested people (send postal addresses, please) but not taking payment for bookings until a bit nearer the time.

Valmai (Lewes, Sussex)

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Fliss
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 03:20 AM

Pity Im not down in Sussex till early august or Id have loved to have come to the workshop, Valmai.

Ive been to the Conertina Club at the Newhampton pub in Wolverhampton once, but it was all from the dots and I learn by ear then look at the dots occasionally. Its all systems.

West Midlands Concertina Club, first Saturdays, Newhampton Inn, Riches Street, Wolverhampton (01902 742937)

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 02:27 AM

Message to Mr Tony Geen.
Always interested to hear of other Duet players.
Have not come across this lady...Any other info?

And a note for Alan.
Although I'm sure you have Iris Bishop, Chris Coe, Gavin Atkin, Michael Hibbert, Jon Boden, Tim Laycock, Alexander Prince, Tommy Williams, etc.....Mr Ed Rennie (of Bismarcks fame) also plays Duet.
In fact we might be recording something special for your project!!
(A sort of Duet/Duet!)
Also Sylvia Needham oop north.. (You can find her via Keith Kendrick)

End of thread drift

Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 11:46 AM

May I respectfully draw people's attention to Sandra Kerr's all-day all-systems concertina workshop at the Lewes Arms, Lewes, East Sussex BN7 1YH, UK, on Saturday 8th. July? Sandra performs at the Lewes Arms Folk Club in the evening.

The music for the workshop is now ready to be sent out (Noble Squire Dacre, Josefina's Waltz, The Cutty Wren, Whinham's Reel, Nancy Clough, Go To Berwick, Johnny).

Full details and a booking form can be found on the Lewes Arms Folk Club website http://members.aol.com/lewesarmsfolk
or you can PM me.

Valmai (Lewes)

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: GUEST,tony geen
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 08:04 AM

Oh, and a separate message for Alan Day -

Regarding Duet International, I once heard a superb MacCann player at Kilve a few years ago. She was called Lesley and her surname was something like Hennessey or Henneker. She would be well worth tracking down.

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 08:02 AM

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: GUEST,tony geen
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 07:59 AM

I've been on holiday or I would have leapt in earlier.

I play MacCann duet, and I find it GREAT for morris. I can get a really good dancey style. Most morris tunes are in G, D, A minor or E minor which are all easy on the MacCann.

To say the layout is illogical is largely irrelevant (- presumably you posted your comment on a 'qwerty' keyboard !!) In fact playing chords is a bit like on guitar - each chord is its completely own shape and you just learn them. After a time I found I hardly have to think about the left hand end, apart from choosing which chord I want.

Most morris concertina players seem to use anglo, probably for historical reasons. Many people will tell you it only sounds right on the anglo, but that's because that is what it's usaually played on.

I love the English concertina, but it doesn't encourage a dancey style like what you want for morris, but no doubt it can be done if you try.

All the best with whatever you end up with. By the way, anglo is probably easiest to play standing up.

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 06:40 AM

Hope you'll include Tim Laycock in the Duet recording, Alan

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Alan Day
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 06:13 PM

If you would like to hear examples of Anglo playing I would recommend Anglo International 3CD of playing styles from around the World.
I am currently working on a follow up English International and next year Duet International.
I am writing this mainly to attract Duet players who I do not know to contact me.Ralphie is already on my list as is a number of other players.
In reply to this question my original recommendation would have been the Anglo as the different direction of notes lend itself to the style of music and dance.However after listening to great playing of all different systems, I cannot rule out any concertina type.
Al

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Fliss
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 05:56 PM

Its odd, Ive been playing English concertina since I was 9 and guitar since I was 15 - I can read the dots for my concertina playing, but dont know the chord patterns. However, on the guitar I know the chords but not the individual notes or what notes go into each chord. I dont know much about 3rds 5ths etc. I just play and If I want to change pitch on a guitar I put on a capo, and have no idea what key Im playing in only that my voice sounds better in that capo placing. Also on the concertina, if I want to play higher or lower I just start on another note and the sharps n flats fall into place as I know my fingering like the back of my hand.

I suppose I m not interested in how the tune is built up only what it sounds like. I play for relaxation not to fry my head with mathematical problems:))

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 08:14 AM

You can manage with you own fingers and toes if you confine yourself with present-day equal temperament for wusses but if you try Han Chinese toons you'll need to keep a flock of tame centipedes.

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 07:52 AM

Sorry, could you start again, I ran out of fingers...

I'll take me shoes off...

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 07:33 AM

Or one in Ab minor with seven flats which makes you realise how they got named 'accidentals'. I was about to explain the 'rule of 7' on how to get from 4 flats BEAD to 3 #s CGF without resorting to manuscript paper when I realised it had got mixed up with a list of Thame cab numbers in the back of a notebook (and anyway what you really need to know is how to get to the relative minot and it's really amazing how few people realise that all you need to do is subtract 3 backwards) but if/when you really have occasion to get from A flat to A major you subtract the 4 flats from 7 and end up with 3 #s. And so on.