sea shanties

Subject: sea shanties
From: Matthew Bram
Date: 21 Feb 99 - 01:46 PM

Congratulations on a great website!

I live in NY City and have been collecting Sea Shanties for quite some time. I am writing a book, which currently contains about 400 songs of the sea, complete with a multitude of footnotes: always massively opinionated, usually entertaining, often amusing, and sometimes even informative.

As is usually the case in the folk tradition, I am not doing this for money, but to preserve these treasures. I once went to Newfoundland with a tape recorder and a box of blank tapes, and came back with 314 songs. It's just possible that some of those songs (sung into my tape recorder by frail, old voices) might otherwise have disappeared.

If anybody wants to join me in this pursuit, I'd love to hear from you. Please post your answers here, or feel free to contact me directly, at [e-mail]

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: harpgirl
Date: 21 Feb 99 - 08:47 PM

Well, Matthew Bram, you will be a welcome addition to our Mudcat family, as Big Mick would say. In your Newfoundland collecting did you run across any dear old ones singing "Sweet Forget Me Knot?" I am enchanted with this song and my band the DoneyGals is working up a rendition of it with double psalteries as well as our voices. I would love to hear more Newfoundland songs! Are your field reordings collected anywhere the public might have access to them? We have had some lively and interesting discussions about sea shanties which you can find by doing a "forum" search with sea shantie as the search word. We have many collectors of shanties on this site and wickedly good singers they are as well, I might venture!! harpgirl

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: SeanM
Date: 21 Feb 99 - 10:37 PM

Bravo! I'd also like to thank you for fighting the good fight... There are too many songs dying because noone is handing them down. I'd like to suggest that you contact someone in San Francisco, as there is a truly wonderful Shanty sing that happens there monthly. Sadly, I am not in the area, but I hit it whenever I can. The songs range all historical eras and areas... I've heard everything from a 2000 year old Israeli sailing song through WWII Destroyer shantys.

Good luck! Keep us posted!

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: dwditty
Date: 21 Feb 99 - 11:07 PM

The Mudcat's own Barry Finn is a singer of shanties. You can send him a personal message by clicking at the top of the page. I am certain he would be interested.

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Robin
Date: 22 Feb 99 - 01:26 AM

The monthly sea chanty sing in San Francisco is held the first Sat. of the month. It's at the Maritime Museum, a lovely collection of old ships. We usually sing on the Thayer. The accoustics in the belly of the ship are wonderful. The event is free, but you need to make reservations by the Thurs. before the event. Call the Maritime Museum.

Robin

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From:
Date: 23 Feb 99 - 10:17 PM

Thank you all, so much, for your kind wishes. We have a monthly shanty sing, here in New York, at the South Street Seaport. A few months ago, we had a very special evening, paying tribute to the late Bernie Klay, a dear friend of mine, founder of the X Seaman's Institute and pivotal figure in the sea shanty community for the last 30 years.

I must say that for the first 20 years of my sea shanty hobby, I had to keep it a secret, somewhat like a closet fetish or illegal religion, confining my singing to safe venues, such as alone at sea... or in the shower. It wasn't until February of 1996 that I stumbled over a whole bunch of fellow shanty lovers, and began writing my book.

In answer to harpgirl's question, I'm sorry to say that I don't have "Sweet Forget Me Knot." (At least not yet!) The closest I have is "The Sweet Town of Anthony," a descendant of the Irish ballad, "The Sweet County Antrim."

I hope I'll pick up a few more gems by talking to folks like you. And I'm glad to be a part of your group.

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Matthew Bram
Date: 23 Feb 99 - 10:18 PM

Oops. I forgot to sign my name to the above message.

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Alice
Date: 23 Feb 99 - 10:57 PM

.... Matthew, did you say shower?...

that's a joke, son.... for the rest of the story, do a forum search with the word 'shower' in the body field.

Alice in Montana

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Dani
Date: 24 Feb 99 - 07:57 AM

Matthew, keep us posted on the book! I'd love to see/hear it. I'm just beginning to appreciate these songs, they're not ones you get to sing everyday, as you pointed out. I just this weekend stumbled on an LP of these songs at an estate sale and am wearing it out.

Can we talk about spelling for a minute? I know you SAY 'shanty' (as in, "we'll hang around the shanty and put a good buzz on") but is that the right spelling? How about all these 'chanties?'

What's the origin of the word? Any mavens care to comment?

Dani

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Bert
Date: 24 Feb 99 - 09:34 AM

From the French chanter - to sing.
A lot of dictionaries list both spellings.

I love 'em. Just can't wait for the book Matthew.

Bert.

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Bob Schwarer
Date: 24 Feb 99 - 11:33 AM

I didn't know Bernie Klay died. Sure sorry to here that. Haven't been to South Street since the early eighties.

Bob S.

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: SeanM
Date: 24 Feb 99 - 01:10 PM

On spelling...

There are soooo many variations on the word that it's not even funny... basically, any way you care to spell it seems to be correct. I've seen 'shanty', 'shantie', 'chanty', 'chantie', in one old book 'chantry', and even once 'schantie', but I'm pretty sure the last one was a misspelling.

As to origin, it could very well be French... Stan Hugill had a lot to say on the subject of the origin, and several theories, but, sadly, I don't have the reference handy... Anyone care to throw out some of the other theories? I know I've heard one about it being Portugese...

M

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: takeo
Date: 24 Feb 99 - 06:59 PM

i love to hear sea shanties sung by paul clayton. tradition label once has "paul clayton/ the day of moby dick" album, this is the most favorite one of mine in folk music. from which state did he come from? i think he's not a southern person but north like bay area in boston. japan also have many many sea shanties couse our land is made with many tiny islands. some songs are from continent, some from pacific polinesia. we can see the original form of oriental shanties at okinawa island in japan, where ry cooder loved and sung to. -takeo

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Susan of DT
Date: 24 Feb 99 - 07:10 PM

Come to the Mystic Seaport Sea Music Festivbal in early June (if you haven't already been there). Besides hearing lovely music, you can meet the curator of several whaling/sea museums, many of whom are performers.

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Matthew Bram
Date: 25 Feb 99 - 11:30 PM

Hi Dani.

I've been writing this book as an ongoing project, and was actually thinking of having it published posthumously. I state a disclaimer in the book's preface: *****

This book is filled with more plagiarism than a college freshman's term paper, but I'm still printing it for two reasons: 1. Folk music is usually considered to be in the "public domain," especially since almost every folk song ever "written" is really just a slightly reworked copy of some other song that came before it. I'm just continuing that "noble" tradition. 2. I don't charge any money for this, so I'm not committing an act of copyright infringement. I typed this on my own time, and copied it at my own expense. My motivation: deep love for this stuff, the desire to share it with others, and the fact that I don't have much of a life anyway so it's not like I had something better to do with my time instead. Pathetic, isn't it? ***** Well, I actually do have quite a life, but I enjoyed writing that just the same. My thought about a postumous publishing would be to avoid all the lawsuits. But maybe I won't die very soon, so I might want to publish it anyway. Any advice?

>I just this weekend stumbled on an LP of >these songs at an estate sale and am >wearing it out Could you please tell me, which LP?

As for the origins of the word, it comes from the French, "Chanter" which means "to sing" the French word for "song" is "chanson" Anyway, the word we use has many spellings: Chanty, Shanty, Shantey, and so on... although I keep hearing the the only "official" spelling is "chantey." Harumph. I don't beive in an official anything.

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Matthew Bram
Date: 25 Feb 99 - 11:35 PM

Hi Takeo.

Konbanwa. I'm so glad to see that your a fan of Paul Clayton's. I have been a devoted fan of his for over 20 years. In my mind, his versions of many songs are what i consider to be the definitive versions. OAs for others... well, he had his style.

Unfortuately, when I asked the late Bernie Klay about Paul's whereabouts, Bernie replied "um, we sort of killed him." He was referring to the fact that Paul's life wasn't going very well, so one day he decided to take a bath with his toaster. A sad end for a fine artist... and another little gem of folklore.

By the way, I would LOVE to learn some Japanese sea shanties, complete with melodies and translations. could you help me with that?

Matthew

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Matthew Bram
Date: 25 Feb 99 - 11:37 PM

Dear Susan of DT.

Of course I'll be at Mystic -- again. I'm a devoted follower of Forebitter, Don Sinetti, and all the other Chanteymen. I'm particularly excited about this year's upcoming Mystic debut of the WindLasses. Keep an eye out for them.

Matthew

Subject: Sea Shanties
From:
Date: 26 Feb 99 - 06:17 AM

Hello all!

Avast, and what not, even.

Yar! Okay, enough silliness, its just very early in the morning, and I've spent most of today looking for a decent .wav or .mp3 or real audio version of any number of good, fun Sea Shanties. Forbitters, long hauls, anything.

If anyone has any they'd be willing to part with to help start a personal collection, it would be much appreciated.

Besides that, I spent 4 years in the Navy, and never got to sing a real Sea Shanty once... pretty sad, such a good tradition fading to black.

Keep up the searching, ye landlubbers!

Any files or the location of such files (I'm especially looking for an audio of Yo Ho Ho - 15 men on a dead man's chest - which, while it may not be a real shanty, is one I really would like to hear the words sung to.) can be sent to:

[e-mail]

Thanks!

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Dani
Date: 26 Feb 99 - 06:33 AM

Matthew, the recording is SEA CHANTIES by The Roger Wagner Chorale on Capitol. Can't find a date. But it is 'dated' - on the back is a blurb that says "This monophonic microgroove recording is playable on monophonic and stereo phonographs. It cannot become obsolete."

I asked my husband if they ever sang when he was in the Navy. He said there was one guy who was always trying to get a song up, but that everyone laughed at him. Isn't that sad? Guess they don't let 'em stay out to sea long enough anymore. Or maybe it's the TV/VCR. Like us, they can watch someone else singing.

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Bert
Date: 26 Feb 99 - 09:27 AM

mystdragon,

Yo Ho Ho is on 'Blood, Booze, 'n Bones', Elektra 108, recorded by Ed Mc Curdy.

I lost my copy years ago but seem to recall that he had a fairly long version.

Bert.

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Matthew Bram
Date: 26 Feb 99 - 10:35 AM

Dear [e-mail] (if that's your name),

The "yo ho ho" song you seek is called "Derelict." It has been delightfully rendered and recorded by the group "Spindrift" among others.

If you like, I can send you the lyrics, the midi file of the music, or both, but I don't have an audio file I can send you.

Let me know.

- Matthew

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Matthew Bram
Date: 26 Feb 99 - 10:36 AM

Dani,

I would like to talk to you about that record album. Could you please send me your e-mail address? Mine is [e-mail]

Thanks.

Matthew

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Susan of DT
Date: 26 Feb 99 - 10:56 AM

Matthew - If you get a mudcat tee shirt by June, we can find you. Or ask performers to point us out - most of them know us.

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: SeanM
Date: 26 Feb 99 - 01:24 PM

On the subject of the Navy no longer singing...

From the personal experience of having been there, a large part of it is the increased size of the crews, and the change in the type of work involved.

I worked with a Senior Chief who would regale us (when bribed with enough drinks ashore) with stories of his recent stay on board a minesweeper... These are tiny little ships, with only 6-10 people on board. When any job needed to be done, the entire crew - captain included - would turn to and finish the job. He mentioned several times that they would often sing traditional shanties to help the work along.

As to the type of work, once you're off of the smaller vessels, there really isn't anything that requires a song, or even asks for it. After all, it seems slightly silly to sing 'South Australia' while pushing a button and watching the anchor haul itself in. 'S matter of fact, I ws at sea for 7 months straight, and because of my duties on board, the closest I ever came to a traditional 'sailor's duty' was mopping our berthing area out...

M

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Matthew Bram
Date: 26 Feb 99 - 02:30 PM

Muckscrapper,

You've hit the nail on the head... but you've sort of whacked your thumb with the hammer. With all of its great ballads, forebitters and drinking songs, the heart of the sea shanty is still its function as a work song -- designed to get people to work together in unison. What good is a common cry of "Haul Away, Joe" when your cargo is being hoisted by an electric winch?

Aside from their musical or other qualities, sea shanties only existed because of that. As for any correllation to the size of the ship, that only applies in modern times inasmuch as the smaller ships don't always have all the necessary gizmos, so men still have to work in unison. Even in the old days, size didn't matter. Ahem. I mean, no shanties were used in the Navy, because any voice but the commander's could interfere with battle. So they achieved work unison by a series of whistles instead of using the songs you and I love.

Matthew

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Alice
Date: 26 Feb 99 - 04:00 PM

Interesting that your last message mentions Haul Away Joe.

I just got back from singing folk songs to a 6th grade class, and they sang Haul Away Joe along with me. I had them imagine the rhythm of men working together pulling on a rope. They loved it. I also gave them a handout that included a webpage of links, with the Mudcat/DT at the top. We may have even more youngsters show up.

alice in montana

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: jets
Date: 27 Feb 99 - 12:53 PM

David Kasanof Who writes "Fo'c'sle" for the Wooden Boat magazine decries the fact that Sea Chantys today are being sung by those with good singing voices.He thinks that it detracks from the authenticity of the song ,for in the old working days of sail ,these songs were sung by rum soaked ,hung over seamen.And as for females singing these songs ,how real can that be? These are his thought and are not a reflection of my own. I suppose that the ansuer is, to be a least haf boomed when singing sea chantys.

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Matthew Bram
Date: 27 Feb 99 - 01:45 PM

Hi jets.

I understand what David means, but I'm not such a purist that I won't accept a song unless it's out of key and sung by a voice that reeks from last night's rum.

The only thing that detracts from the authnticity of a song for me is when it is sung with the wrong spirit. Despite their images in the movies, these sailors were not the cartoon characters we often like to imagine them as having been. Even the "roughest" sailor would often shed a tear when someone sang "Home, Deary, Home" or "A Sailor's Grave." These were people too. What I love most about these songs is the way they helped these men (and yes, sometimes even women!!) to endure adversities that you and I would not even consider facing.

A typical sailor was usually faced with great uncertainty of his survival, extreme cruelty from his superiors, a total lack of reliable medical help or proper nutrition, and usually didn't even have adequate clothing or protection from the elements. (Look closely at some of those old photos; you'll see men climbing the rigging in street shoes and tattered slacks.)

Somehow, these songs empowered sailors with an acceptance of these conditions, great pride and bravado in his ability to face them, and most of all, a way to use humor to look at his situation. For me, that spirit reaches me through the music. And it even arms me with the spirit to endure my own hardships, however less dramatic.

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Wotcha
Date: 27 Feb 99 - 07:35 PM

Matthew, glad to see that you have already weighed in (pun intended) on sea chanteys in the short week on Mudcat.

To discuss lack of tradition in the navy, I submit that chanteys may never have been a strong tradition since in the Royal Navy, at least, they were known as the "silent service" (not to be confused with the current US Naval reference to its submariners). Bad operational security to start belting out a chantey when chasing down some elusive man o'war. Of course, colonial and other national practices may have differed ...

Hope to see more threads from you. And hope to back in NYC for some more Brooklyn Brown Ale and chanteys in a few months,

Cheers, Brian

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 27 Feb 99 - 09:33 PM

Takeo:

You are right. Paul Clayton (Worthington) was originally from New Bedford, Massachusetts, a great old whaling center at the heel of Cape Cod. He did graduate work in Folklore at the University of Virginia, working under A. K. Davis, respected author of a couple of books on the traditional ballads of that state. After completing his Master's degree, Paul got himself a small cabin near Brown's Cove, Virginia. which he used as his home base. Unfortunately, for all of us, he took his own life in the manner described in an earlier posting to this thread. Almost a formal self-execution. A tragic ending for a brilliant and extremely creative individual.

Sandy

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: SeanM
Date: 27 Feb 99 - 10:23 PM

Speaking of the traditions...

Several sources (Hugill being the one most in mind, but several historic ones as well) cite the various naval fleets as not singing. That 'burden' fell to the Merchant Marines of the various times and nations. As far as I can tell, it took the final replacement of sail by the various steam & etc. ships to silence the use of shanties... although I do hear some people say they still know of merchants singing their own modern shanties, mostly of the foc's'le variety for their entertaiment.

M

Subject: Lyr Add: THE OLD RED DUSTER (John Archbold)
From: Wotcha
Date: 28 Feb 99 - 12:51 AM

And speaking of a merchant marine chantey (I am supposing this is one), let's ADD this to the database -- I collected it at a sing in Maryland, so have no idea of its origin:

THE OLD RED DUSTER

I remember the day that I climbed the gangway,
My new coat and jacket, so clean--
No bacon and eggs till I got my sea legs--
My first trip. My God, I was green!

CHORUS: It's the old red duster for me,
And a tramp or a liner.
There'll be no {brass hat???) navy for me.
You can keep your salutes
And your spit-polished boots.
It's the old red duster for me.

On many's the ship, I've made many's the trip
On oceans and seas, far and wide--
Many ports, near and far, been thrown from the bar.
There's many the young girl beguiled.

I sailed in the war like my uncle before,
From Britain, right down to Bombay.
My little convoy bag, I sailed for the flag,
The glory, the medals, and the pay.

I was pulled from the pool. I was nobody's fool.
There was a jaunt up to Murmansk for me,
But the union said, "No, there's a fault. You can't go."
It's the union forever for me.

The sturdy old tramp's got a foc'sl that stamps.
Her splights are half sprung and they leak.
The food's always bad, and the master's gone mad,
And the owner's a bastard, and cheap.

I've sweated and slaved. at this engine I've raged,
Nursing this cripple along.
For her joints, they're a-creaking, and her glands they are a-leaking.
At six knots, she's racing along.

I've been in the hold in the heat and the cold
All day and all night as well,
And when my time's near, I'll go without beer,
For I've been where it's hotter than hell.

So now you all know why the good sailors go,
Merchant seamen to be.
If you want any more, like what come before,
You can bloody well sing it to me.

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 30-Nov-02.

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Feb 99 - 04:46 AM

Hi Matthew, just to add to Susan's comment on Mystic in early June, you'd be hard pressed to find better or even an equal anywhere. Get a mudcat Tee-shirt, they're usually a few of us there.

As to "Chanty" coming from the the french to sing or chant, the debate will probably never stop. I'd say on guessing that there's a strong possiblily of it coming from the West Indian tradition. They've been singing to the moving of their shanties (houses) for a very long time & it's possible they've influenced the world of shantydom far greater & longer than most have in the past given them credit for.

Yo Ho Ho ..... was originally a 4 line song by Robert Louis Stevenson for Treasure Island called "Cap'n Billy Bones his Song". Young Ewing Allison worked this into a six verse song calling it "A Piratical Ballad" & later calling it "Derelict". The Dead Man's Chest refers to a Caribbean island reef. If you'd like the six verses let me know & I'll post them. (from S. Frank's 'The Book Of Pirate Songs'.

Besides the New York (South St Seaport) & San Francisco (Hyde St Pier) shanty sings there's another I believe in DC or Baltimore run by KC King.

Jets, I also read Wooden Boats 'Foc's'le' on shanties & replied, as of yet they haven't published my comments. Barry

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Ian Kirk (inactive)
Date: 28 Feb 99 - 06:22 AM

Welcome aboard Matthew. Let us all know when the book/record is ready I think you have a number of customers ready to buy as soon as the print is dry.

Following this thread I took another dip in to A.L..Lloyd's book Folk Songs in England originally published by Lawrence and Wishart Ltd, London 1967 he devotes a section to the history of the shanty. Unfortunately I do not know whether the book is still in print but if you can find a copy it is an excellent read.

His view is that the "practice of shanty singing as we know it best emerged during the American dominated packet ship days of roughly 1830-50 and it reached it's peak in the British dominated clipper ship era of 1855-70"

These vessels were commercial craft with tight sailing schedules. As a consequence of the Industrial Revolution in Britain and world wide demand for machine made goods Isaac Wright and Co's Black Ball Line for example, began their regular run between Liverpool and New York in 1816 sailing on the first of each month regardless of the weather or the amount of cargo on board.

Lloyd goes on to point out the importance of the shanty man. Competition between these packet ships and other such commercial craft meant that the shipowners would try anything that might help the fast and efficient working of their vessels. He says "men heaved and hauled better if they sang at work. 'A good shantyman's worth six more hands on the rope' was the saying. Some companies paid a bonus to the man who was a good leader of work songs, the man with a strong voice and a ready wit for spinning chants out of his head in a way that had his workmates toiling with a will."

I believe on war ships as opposed to merchant ships there was a rule requiring silence on deck which seems reasonable. If you were stealing up on the enemy fleet in the mist with a view to taking them by surprise a hearty rendering of Haul Away Joe by the lusty matelots wouldn't help.

Hmm I don't suppose in today's world Stealth aircraft crew are encouraged to sing "Coming in on a Wing and a Prayer" as they go about their business. Though it might give any ground tracking station something to puzzle about - "Er we can't see it but there seems to be some singing coming from somewhere - good chorus!"

Ian

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Margo
Date: 28 Feb 99 - 10:33 AM

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the other theory of where the word shanty came from. I have read in several chanty collections (including Colcord and Doerflinger) that it's thought that the word may have come from the negro sailors who generally lived in shantys when ashore. It does raise questions. Margarita

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Wotcha
Date: 28 Feb 99 - 10:51 AM

Barry:

You mentioned shanty sings in the DC/Baltimore area. The first Tuesday of the month, a group known as the Ships Company Chanteymen lead a sing in Wheaton, Maryland at the Royal Mile Pub. Starting in March, they may also meet in Old Town Alexandria on the Third Tuesday of the month.

The Ships Company Chanteymen are a part of a larger nonprofit reenactment group. They are going to be doing some battle in Baltimore's Inner Harbor (as part of a promotion apparently for the A&E version of Horatio Hornblower) on 27 March along with Pyrates Royale -- a rather interesting group of bohemians who could be categorized as a troupe, groupe, or something else ... Both organizations have a web site and are doing lots to preserve a valuable tradition in the DC area.

I recently visited the NYC sing. The singers are quite distinguished and accomplished -- the atmostphere is different too (essential a community Church Hall vice a pub) but the net effect is still wonderful.

Hopefully this is a tradition that will revive elsewhere. In fact, one of the Ships Company is trying to get something going in New Orleans through a former Boarding Party member who lives there. I believe that Richmond, VA also has a sing. I intend to bring this tradition to the Middle East and maybe come back with some Arabic Chantey about Dhows and persian rugs ....

Cheers, Brian

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: SeanM
Date: 28 Feb 99 - 12:46 PM

As to the origin of the word 'shanty':

Margarita brings up a good point. There is a very strong influence from the various 'slave ports' that ships would do business at. A fair amount of evidence points to some owners selling their slaves to ship's captains as deck seamen so that the owners wouldn't need to support their 'charges' during the off season. The slaves definitely influenced shanties on board, as they brought the plantation and other songs of their past with them.

One of the things that fascinates me about shanties is the incredible diversity in music sources that can be traced. Since the captains were in the habit of picking up crews anywhere they could, the result is a body of tradition where musical influences can be seen from almost every nation in the world.

*Steps down off of soapbox*

The original point of this (yes there was one) was to point out that the word 'shanty' probably owes less to the slave culture than to other regions that the sailors hailed from. I may be off on the timeframe, but I believe that the word 'shanty' was being used at some point in the 1820-1830 range, and from regions that wouldn't have had as much contact from the slave labor. But as has been said, linguists and etymologists have been debating the origin of the word for as long as it's been a recognized word... I doubt that I'm going to solve anything.

M

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: John Mayberry
Date: 28 Feb 99 - 12:51 PM

"The Old Red Duster" is by John Archbold, of Toronto. I know Alistair Brown has it on his latest CD- I seem to remember Tom Lewis recording it as well. John's original words include "pusser Navy" (instead of "brass-hat Navy") in the chorus. "Pusser", as in "purser" (see the famous rum), was apparently an expression of disdain for the rank- and rule-bound Royal Navy by the merchant seamen. The verse about the trip to Murmansk, John has explained to me, concerns the fact that a company wanted to send his uncle on the dangerous trip, only paying him as a "fourth" (class seaman ?), but the union intervened and said they couldn't do that. "The union said 'No, as a fourth he can't go.'"

In the original, "Her plates (not splights) are half sprung and they leak."

John Archbold (who has written a number of other excellent songs) is a founding member of The Toronto Morris Men (aka The Wall of Sound), who can be blamed for the odd shanty session (sometimes featured and advertised, more often in a pub or a kitchen) up here in Toronto.

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Feb 99 - 05:22 PM

Hi Wotcha, thanks for the straighting out on those sessions. I've yet to hit the NYC sessions but have sung in various places with a good bit of those that are regulars & I've been mightly impressed. It's been 20 yrs since I've frequented the San Francisco sessions & would die for any excuse to hit that one or the others that you've mentioned.

Hugill leans to the word Shanty as coming from the southern ports & the Afro American influence. I'd venture to take this a good bit further. The Eastern seaboard, from New England to the West Indies, prior to the Civil War & going back to the Revolution, was governed if not ruled by Black Watermen. In the North, Captain A.B.Boston, a contempory of Chrispuis Adioux (Sp?), was an Afro American captain of the whaling schooner 'Industry' & she was manned by an all black crew. This was not anymore uncommon than finding white sailors working the seaports. The best a black man could hope for at the time would be to work the water (later came the RR), weither it was on a plantation owned vessel or a foreign owned ship with a checkerboard crew. The slave & the freeman sailed the Alantic rim for near 100 years singing work songs, the shanties from their tradition lasted far into the 19th century on the smaller vessels while the shanties of their white counterparts died out. Would it not then be very likely that the shanty may have been in use in these areas a good many years before the rise of the so called mid 18th century golden age of shanties, only not collected or documented until it's near demise. Abrahams collected in the 1960's throughout the Caribbean, Lomax along the Georgia Sae Islands from the 40's to the 60's & we have the living legacy of the Manhaden Chanteymen & the Northern Neck Chanteymen that sang up until the 50's in the Manhaden fishing industry. I think that the Afro American influence on shanties is still greatly underestimated. Any input &/or comments would be a great value to me if anyone would care to make on this subject. Barry

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: SeanM
Date: 28 Feb 99 - 06:09 PM

To continue with the last note...

I don't think that it's so much a matter of the Afro-American influence being understated, more than the influences of all the nations together being understated. I have friends majoring in music theory (Look for them either teaching or on a corner begging soon) who love to pick apart traditional shanties for the sheer joy of trying to figure out where they came from. Their general consensus seems to be that the three major influences of the shanties were the Irish emigrant wave (post-coffin ships), the African and Afro-American (as more left whatever they were doing ashore and joined aboard ships) and the European base (Drastically oversimplified... every one of the ocean-going nations contributed something to the mix)

It's problematic to try and lay claim for any one particular influence as being the one that shaped shanties for all time. If you read Dana's 'Two Years Before the Mast', he several times refers to the songs that were sung aboard his ships, and also those of the other crews (including a Kanaka crew singing entirely in their own language).

Perhaps shanties should be considered one of the true 'international' forms of singing?

M

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Ferrara
Date: 28 Feb 99 - 08:48 PM

Any hope of getting a tune here for The Old Red Duster? I love it. [This request for a tune brought to you by a person who has struggled unsuccessfully with miditxt for the last 24 hours re another thread....]

We live near the Royal Mile in Wheaton and I've been hoping to get there soon. Guess I need a mudcat t-shirt. They're getting to be a necessity as we all wander around the country. A nice necessity.

Barry Finn -- Crispus Attucks is one spelling I've seen.

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Pete M
Date: 28 Feb 99 - 11:40 PM

John, the "jaunt up to Murmansk" I think goes a bit deeper than that. The pool system of crewing ships was used during the war and Murmansk was the destination of the artic convoys to supply Russia. The PQ convoys were and are generally acknowledged to be the most dangerous regular convoy run of the war. "Fourth" would have been fourth mate. "Pusser" is the Navy term for purser, and was in common use as a descriptive for the Andrew by men of the merchant marine. Just in case its not obvious to anyone, the Red duster is the Red Ensign worn by British Merchantmen.

Just as an aside it is not generally appreciated that the most dangerous service in the second world war in terms of percentage of men killed and wounded was the Merchant Marine.

Pete M

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: rich r
Date: 28 Feb 99 - 11:40 PM

An interesting book that covers some territory usually ignored by most books containing songs of the sea is: The Music Of The Waters by Laura A Smith. It was written in 1888 and republished in 1969. The book includes a body of information about sea songs from non-English speaking countries (Hugill also has a number of northern European songs). The sub-title on the title page says: "A collection of the sailors' chanties or working songs of the sea, of all maritime nations. Boatmen's, Fishermen's, and rowing songs, and water legends." Not including the first 4 chapters of British Isles/North American songs the following chapters are found:

French sailor's & boatmen's songs
Italian sailors', Neopolitan fishermen's & Venetian gondoliers' songs
Scandinavian sea songs
German sailors' songs
Dutch sailors' and herring-fishers' songs
Russian sailors' songs
Greek songs
Japanese sailors' songs
Nile boatmen's songs
Indian water songs
From China to Peru .

As can be inferred from the chapter titles, many of the songs are not necessarily work songs.

rich r

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Wotcha
Date: 01 Mar 99 - 09:17 PM

Ferrara:

Come to the Royal Mile this week! 2 March, then you'll get the tune ... Since you are in Maryland bring a Linda Tripp recording device ...!

Cheers, Brian

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Mar 99 - 10:06 PM

I have wanted to take a look at this thread for a while, but as you know, I have been a bit incommunicado. But it was worth the wait. Matthew, welcome to our town, and please pace yourself so you don't get tired and leave. You are a welcome addition, and with Barry Finn and Dan Milner around, you will not be for wont of informed discussion of your genre. This is an area that I have wanted to do more with, and thanks to this thread (long may it wave) I have a good start. Good work, lad.

All the best,

Big Mick Lane

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: takeo
Date: 01 Mar 99 - 10:18 PM

mattew, i wrote you a mail directly to mattgb1. if you cannot receive, tell me directly to [e-mail]. and sandy, thanks for your message now i know paul is from cape breton. and thanks everybody for further discussion, i enjoy this forum very much. -takeo

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: takeo
Date: 01 Mar 99 - 10:52 PM

correction: not cape breton but cape cod. where's cape breton? in ireland? -takeo

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Mar 99 - 11:04 PM

Hi takeo, Cape Breton is roughly 600 mile northeast of Cape Cod. Barry

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Gerry Stensgaard
Date: 02 Mar 99 - 12:38 PM

Cape Breton (Island)is part of Nova Scotia, Canada. Famous for Celtic music in general, fiddlers in particular, e.g. Asley MacIsaac, Natalie McMaster.

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Martin _Ryan
Date: 02 Mar 99 - 01:21 PM

On the death of shanties: I have a tape somewhere of The Shanty Crew (of Bristol?) singing "The Last Shanty" which starts:

Moden ships they got mighty funny gear
And away, get away you shanty man
I ain't seen a halyard for many's the year!
And they got no work for a shantyman!.

I might have it on disc somewhere - if so I'll post it later.
On "dead man's chest": I have a vague memory of Hugill implying it might refer to a "deadman's face" - a swivel for two anchors? Any evidence for the reef connection, Barry?

Several posts above discuss the problem of "over-tidy" shanties i.e. with the rough edges (musically and content-wise!) taken off. Its a delicate business. The trick is to maintain some trace, at least, of the spirit involved in worksongs. As an example: I very much enjoy the one CD I have of Paul Clayton (Songs of Whaling and Sailing Ships, or similar). He had a fine voice and a folklorist's feel for the sets of words he used. BUT he was no great shanty-singer! His versions appeal because they are very musical. They need to appeal despite being musical! Of course, the reverse is not true - a shanty isn't great just because its bawled out toneless!

I'm beginning to understand why I kept away from this thread for so long. Think I'll just go out to Glasson tomorrow night and sing a few shanties!

Regards

p.s. Many years ago, I ran a shanty-session in Athlone - which is as far away from the sea as you can get in Ireland!

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Matthew Bram
Date: 02 Mar 99 - 01:40 PM

My deepest thanks to all of you for the warmest welcome I have received in years.

Takeo, I did receive your e-mail (last night) and I would be thrilled to add some Japanese sea shanties to my collection (I'll write more later).

Mick, thanks for the advice about pacing myself, but I think I'll manage because I'm just so in love with this music.

Once again, I love hearing from all of you.

Matthew

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Bert
Date: 02 Mar 99 - 03:25 PM

For a good story about the Russian Arctic convoys read '73 North' by Dudley Pope.

Bert.

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Matthew B.
Date: 03 Mar 99 - 06:26 PM

Martin -

Let me know if you need the lyrics of "The Last Shanty" and I'll post it here.

As for "derelict," I seriously doubt if there's a connectionn between a dead man's chest and a dead man's face. The latter (as you point out) refers to a kind of chain link that's used for attatching two anchors to one chain, and named as such because it sort of looks like a skull's face in its shape.

In the song "Banks of Newfoundland" there's a line "Come wipe the mud off that dead man's face,and heave to beat the band" referring to the fact that it's coated with mud as you haul up the anchor.

However, much to Hugill's chagrin (but completely in keeping with the folk tradition nonetheless), mud became blood, which sounds (in my opinion) kinda neat, especially if you don't know much about anchor chains and think it's referring to some corpse you have to clean up before pitching overboard. Okay, it's kinda morbid, but I like that sort of stuff.

- Matt

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Barry Finn
Date: 03 Mar 99 - 08:56 PM

Hi Martin. If you can picture a flat heavy piece of steel in a skull shape with 2 holes where the eyes are & a matching hole where the mouth would be, the main lead chain would attach at the mouth & the 2 anchor chains would lead out at different directions from the eyes. This would give them better holding power in rough weather & also gave them a measure of safety, holding against changing tides & winds. This devise was better than running two cables or lines from the deck which could eventually twist while swinging at anchor. The swivel would eliminate these dangers later on.

The Dead Man's Chest, I don't have much on. In the Book of Pirates, S. Franks writes "The Dead Man's Chest refers neither to human anatomy nor to luggage, but to an island reef in the Caribbean where pirates are supposed to have consorted & shipping come to grief". Although not much to bite into Stuart Frank is quite the researcher with an endless supply of sources.

In the past pursers or pussers were officers responsible for pay, provisions & clothing & until the early 19th century in the Royal Navy they could officially benifit from their transactions, the suspicion that sailor's felt lead to nicknames like "Mr. Nipcheese" while their assistants where labled Jack Dusty or Jack of the Dust.

Hi Muckscrapper, I didn't mean to make it seem as if Afro Americans were more influencial than all the other sea going nations, only that I think that the amount of their influence has been underestimated grossly & the effect they had on the songs is still not recognized. Barry

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Wotcha
Date: 03 Mar 99 - 09:16 PM

A perfect example of Mr. Nipcheese at work is illustrated in Caroline Alexander's much bandied book, "The Endurance: Shackleton's Legendary Antartic Expedition." Shackleton's logistics man rationed food meticulously while hoarding stuff for himself.

Oh, and on the Chantey theme ... the only two chanteys mentioned, as the crew's favorites, in Ms. Alexander's book (10 trivia points)are Mr. Stormalong and Sailor's Alphabet. A good chanteyman can get you through 22 months stuck on the ice.

Cheers, Brian

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 04 Mar 99 - 03:51 AM

Makes sense that "Stormalong" was one of the two shantis sung on the "Endurance", since that's the part of the world where the good skipper came from - "Away down south around Cape Horn".

How are the east coast sea festivals attendance-wise? I've never been to a shanty festival on the west coast, Vancouver to San Diego, in the last twenty years that drew a decent crowd (maybe I've missed some successful ones...). I recall one in the Bay area that had Stan Hugill, Louie Killen and me doing a workshop for two small kids and a dog. Make my day and tell me the East has more luck!

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Matthew B.
Date: 04 Mar 99 - 03:06 PM

Jon Bartlett,

Yes, the East Coast has some pretty good turn-outs. I can't tell you the actual attendance numbers for the Mystic Festival, but they're pretty high.

We even had a nice turnout here in NYC for the Little Red Lighthouse festival in Manhattan last year.

In addition to that, we have a monthly Shanty Sing at the Seaman's Church Institute, near the South Street Seaport.

Matt

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Barry Finn
Date: 05 Mar 99 - 12:58 AM

Hi Jon, I hate singing to dogs they always jump right in before finding the right key & won't go away until they're sure you not playing bones. Kidding aside there aren't that many shanty festivals (at least in the Northeast) here but the few that exist are usually well stocked & well attended. I was at the same Little Red Lighthouse Fest. that Matt mentioned the year before & the preformers did a great job (that includes you & Caroline, Sandy) & for a small 1 day affair I was surprised by the crowd (but was really more bowed over by the singers). Mystic has to be one of the best attended (with a good few Mudcatters too , mind you) & best presented & constantly has a line up that that you couldn't beat with a stick. The tall ships parades I've been to here have had some sea music but not near what I'd expect or hope for, but still when the singing starts it's well repesented & attended.

I'd love to hear from those in Europe about the sea music at the tall ship's races & parades. From the pictures & articles I've read it seems that in Europe one wouldn't think of putting on a sea festival without including a good bit of sea music to accompany it (is this true?). And how about from all the Aussies & Kiwis, how's the sea festivals, parades & races for sea music? Barry

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Lyrics to Glendy Burke
Date: 07 Mar 99 - 08:34 AM

Anybody know the lyrics to "Glendy Burke?"

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Barry Finn
Date: 07 Mar 99 - 07:11 PM

Hi Annon. When looking for lyrics start a new thread & ask there rather than buring it at the bottom of an old thread that many might not bother with anymore. The Glendy Burke is in the DT. Enter the title into the search box in the upper right corner of your screen & you've got it. Happy hunting, Barry

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Matthew B
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 01:00 PM

Alice -

I still don't get the "shower" reference

- Matthew

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 01:14 PM

Monthly Chantey Sing at Seamen's Church Institute, 241 Water Street, NYC tonight (17APR). For the brave hearted, this can be followed by an Irish Session with Brian Conway, Dan Milner and Bob Conroy at O'Neill's Pub, 3rd Avenue @ 44th Street, Manhattan. Chantey Sing is free (contribution welcome); Irish Session is free.

Hope to see you if you're around town.

All the best,
Dan

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 01:24 PM

Click here, Matthew.(grin)
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: LEJ
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 04:20 PM

Liam's Brother...You know Dan, for probably the one and only time in my life I am regretting that I don't live in New York City! If I did I would certainly be at the Seaman's Church AND O'Neill's Pub. Have fun!

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 05:21 PM

Alice (and Joe): Wow! Talk about IN jokes. I remember the thread, but even with the hint I failed to make the connection. --seed

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: GUEST,Drew Davidson
Date: 07 Feb 00 - 04:53 PM

Does anyone out there have the words of a shanty called the Gallant Ship

rgds

Drew Davidson

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Amos
Date: 07 Feb 00 - 05:36 PM

On singing chanties while sitting in shanties:

Although the two words are presently spelled the same in some lexicons, Webster's seems to think they are different words.

The word for a shack is attributed to the French word chantier, a lumber camp, from a Latin root cantherius meaning a rafter or a trellis. Hence, a crude dwelling of the kind thrown up in lumber camps.

The word for a seaman's working song derives from the French word for singing, chanter.

Webster's dates the former to 1820 and the latter to 1856, but I think the singing root must go back further than that.

FWIW.

A

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: SeanM
Date: 07 Feb 00 - 05:43 PM

Drew;

I'd suggest starting a new thread with "Lyr. Req: Gallant Ship" as the title.

Also, there are several shanties that might go by that name. A small section of lyrics or a chorus (whatever you know) would be very helpful.

M

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: SeanM
Date: 07 Feb 00 - 05:43 PM

Drew;

I'd suggest starting a new thread with "Lyr. Req: Gallant Ship" as the title.

Also, there are several shanties that might go by that name. A small section of lyrics or a chorus (whatever you know) would be very helpful.

M

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Amos
Date: 07 Feb 00 - 05:43 PM

As for finding reasons to sing chanties on industrial-era vessels, my first shipboard post was peeling potatoes on a 150-foot triple-expansion steam driven North Sea trawler; but no-one seemed to mind that I sang tales of the cook making duff so handy while I was doing it. I guess it depends on the mix of your shipmates.

A

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Jun 02 - 02:29 AM

Wow, incredible thread!

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 01 Jun 02 - 04:41 PM

Thanks for rereshing this, Kat! This was before I became a Mudcatter, so I never saw this thread before. I just want to correct a bit of info posted early on. The San francisco chantey sing was mentioned, stating that one has to reserve space the Thursday before the event. There is a music newsletter in the bay area that mistakenly printed that, so it's understandable that someone would post that info here. Actually, reservations for the chantey sing can be made up to an hour before it begins (begins at 8pm) by calling [phone]. Ok...carry on. Excuse the thread creep.

chanteyranger

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: SeanM
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 05:31 AM

Refreshing for a friend... Hope you enjoy, and REGISTER, dammit!

M

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: radriano
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 07:03 PM

The tall ships festival is happenning in San Francisco this year (2002) over Labor Day weekend.

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 11:24 PM

Matthew Bram, if you're still here, let us know how your project is coming along. Many the Mudcatter would love to buy your book when it's out.

Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Melani
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 12:51 AM

The Tall Ships dates that I have are Aug. 28-31. I'm told there will be a lot of schooners.

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 10:14 PM

Aye, Chanteyranger! Count me in on the first sales as well.

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From:
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 04:44 AM

Matthew Bram,

This is my first time on this site. I'm very interested in your collection of shanties, as I am choir director of the Zuiderzeemuseumkoor; a choir related to the former Zuiderzee (sea), which is now a big lake.

This also goes to anyone else interested; I'm always looking for interesting material. I've also got some interesting songs in Dutch and German for you... My address is; Jos Lange Zesstedenweg 137 1613 JC Grootebroek Netherlands

My e-mail-address runs via the school where I work; [e-mail]

Sincerely,

Jos Lange

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 05:12 AM

We in the Northwest get the Tall Ships before you Bay folk do. They're here at Steveston (a fishing village on the southwestern tip of Richmond) from 9-11 August. The Vancouver FSS Shanty Crew, among others, is doing the singing. We'd LOVE to have salty Mudcatters and other shantysingers join us! We have just finished a CD with 27 shanties on it with an enclosed 32-page booklet on sail in the northwest, particularly the development of the Fraser River ports. The shanties are all the usual: nothing new, but then the exciting stuff is in the singing, isn't it? We made the CD as a souvenir for folk who aren't yet aware of the singing traditions in the hope that it might spark some singing interest. The thought of just LISTENING to shanties is sorta creepy, isn't it? A bit like keyhole peeping! Anyway, we'll be encouraging all and sundry to join us and we'll get some really big choruses going. No stages, no mikes, just a big crowd tailing on the rope.

Jon Bartlett

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 08:00 PM

Some day I have to cruise up to Vancouver, nose around the docks where C. Fox Smith used to hang out gossiping with the old shipkeepers. Jon, has anyone up there done any research on her activities in the early 1900's. She spent about 10 years in your area, probably part of the time employed at some kind of shipping office.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 10:21 PM

Chaley, this is indeed news! What's your source? I know of no-one doing research in this area, but I am sure interested!

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Abuwood
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 09:05 AM

Can I reccommend http://www.chanteycabin.co.uk/ they have a wealth of shanty recordings, and a "black box" of some really old and obscure stuff with printed histories. Let me know when the book's ready!

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Abuwood
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 09:07 AM

Can I reccommend http://www.chanteycabin.co.uk/ they have a wealth of shanty recordings, and a "black box" of some really old and obscure stuff with printed histories. Let me know when the book's ready!

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 04:27 PM

Jon-

My references include the short bio that Danny McLeod did as part of his accompaning song notes to SEABOOT DUFF & HANDSPIKE GRUEL, performed by one of his sea music groups Pinch of Salt; PM me for Danny's e-mail address. C. Fox Smith herself describes in one of her sailortown short stories books talking with various shipkeepers from roughly 1904 to 1914, much of that time based in Vancouver. With a little work I could provide the relevant book titles, most of which are still available at www.bookfinder.com

Hope you are someone else in the area can figure out a way to follow up the adventures of C. Fox Smith in British Colombia.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 27 Jul 02 - 03:24 AM

Thanks, Charlie, I'll be in touch as soon as I'm back from the Chilcotin. I'm pleased to say our shanty CD BLOW THE MAN DOWN - TALL SHIPS IN THE FRASER came out today - 27 tracks and a 32-page booklet with a history of sail in the Fraser River (just in time for the Tall Ships Festival 8-12 August at Steveston).

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From:
Date: 27 Jul 02 - 07:52 AM

hi matt, on your newfoundland research did you come across a song titled "the ferryland sealer"? i know it recorded by the scottish folk band silly wizard, it's a nice song, originated in ferryland, avalon peninsula. and do you know the beautiful a cappella arrangements performed by the robert shaw chorale? it dates back from the sixties, i guess, but has been remastered on cd ("Sea Shanties", BMG Music, 09026 63528 2). it contains four- and five-part arrangements of blow the man down, haul away joe, what shall we do with the drunken sailor, and others - in sort of a "king's singers" style.

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: beachcomber
Date: 27 Jul 02 - 08:34 AM

Barry Finn, you never did post the words of that neck tingling "shanty" that goes "Fifteen men on the dead man's chest etc." It thrilled me beyond words when I first heard it back about 1953 or 4 in the Film of "Treasure Island" . Please do! Mathew I was sure some other recordings of Sea songs and shantys would eventually be mentioned but have seen no mention of some I bought at Cecil Sharpe House back in the 60s. One had A.Llyod , Louis Killen (who played the sailor's favoured concertina) and Ian Campbell among others. I also did not see any reference to the great Cyril Tawney who used to sing in the 50s with a group calling themselves "The Loo Shantymen" (Loo being a town in the Southwest of England I believe and nothing to do with showers and singing in them) I remember their magnificent rendering of "Spanish Ladies"...We'll rant and we'll roar like true British sailors etc., etc.." Your book sounds like a good'un, best of luck with it, postumously or otherwise.

beachcomber

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Wotcha
Date: 27 Jul 02 - 11:34 AM

I think you mean Looe, Cornwall ... The "Loo" is something else in British slang (but better than "bog") ...
Cheers,
Brian

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 28 Jul 02 - 12:56 AM

I just found a sea shanty web radio station on live365.com...just do a search under sea shanties..I had it turned down really low and I swore I heard Bob Kotta singing..sure enough..if you can possibly get hold of an old tape of his (NW Seaport in Seattle might still have them) do..he was unsurpassed I think..just a great singer and a great guy...he's singing with the heavenly band now..

see thread on Cranberry Coast Sunnycamp..we are right here at the Columbia bar..should be lots of good songs about the sea here..but I sadly do not know of any/many...John Dwyer and Suzie MacAleer did right a great one with a very involved chorus...mg

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From:
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 02:04 AM

Hello Fine Folks,
I am a student, working on a proposal for a year-long grant to study outside the US. My project is the music and lore of sailing,both in European tradition and in the indigenous traditional song and story related to working with the sea in French Polynesia and Micronesia, perhaps New Zealand....
I'm pressed for time, but I'm so committed to making this proposal work somehow! Does anyone have ideas or contacts, or would be willing to talk in person with me about this? Dan McKinnon in halifax gave me the link to this site.
Thanks much!!!!
Ashlynn

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: GUEST,ClaireBear
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 11:17 AM

Ashlynn,

Check out the "News from Guam" thread (and be prepared for a good, LONG read!). Naemanson, a sea music lover who currently lives on Guam, is someone you might want to talk to.

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Dead Horse
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 01:45 PM

Get hold of a copy of Stan Hugills book "Shanties from the Seven Seas"
ISBN 0-913372-70-6
Available from Mystic Seaport Museum, inc.
75 Greenmanville Avenue,
Mystic, CT. 06355.
(priced at $19.95 some years back, & worth at least double)
It contains a wealth of info regarding shanties, their history, and how they were used. Much other interesting stuff as well.
Beg, borrow, or better yet, buy a copy!

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: GUEST,Chanteyranger
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 02:58 PM

A great resource for the sea music of the south Pacific is Revell Carr. He is a PhD candidate in ethnomusicology at UC Santa Barbara, specializing in the sea songs of pacific islanders, and the musical contacts between whaling ship sailors and islanders. Not to be confused with his father, also named Revell Carr, who is the former director of the Mystic Seaport Museum.

If you sign up on mudcat as a member, you can receive personal messages, and I can give you Rev's email address there, if you'd like. He also checks into Mudcat from time to time.

Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: GUEST,Dan in Nova Scotia
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 03:18 PM

Hello Ashlynn,

I also just thought of another person who has had a few connections with shanties and that would be Stuart Frank who used to be the head honcho at the New Bedford Whaling Museum in Mass. I don't know if he's still there but that might be another avenue.

Also, as I hadn't heard from you I was wondering if you have the right e-mail. Here it is just in case:

[e-mail]

All the best.

Cheers,

Dan

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 01:56 PM

A friend of his sent me an email saying that there is a Disney toy from Pirates of the Caribbean movie that has a bit of the late, great, Bob Kotta singing a bit of "15 men on a dead man's chest." I haven't heard it...he also can be heard singing Bully in the Alley on something I hadn't heard of but just came across on internet...a CD called Save the Wiwona one song at a time...I'll see if I can get the url...several songs can be heard from url alone...I'll start separate thread. mg

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: s&r
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 05:45 AM

Anyone know a source for French sea shanties?

Stu

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Snuffy
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 08:57 AM

If you go here ISSA, then click on "Shanties", then "Library" you can download a spreadsheet of all their shanty collection (1100+) in various languages.

Trouble is, you have to be a member to get the actual texts and dots. :-(

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: GUEST,Wyll
Date: 06 May 11 - 05:16 PM

Hello
I'm in France but born in UK I love shanty's and woud like to keep them going I don't sing but do have a good colection of audio et lyrics of French and English song's.
If interested tell me

[e-mail]

Wyll

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Harry Rivers
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 05:19 AM

Does anyone know if the book mentioned in the first post above was ever published?

The email given doesn't seem to be active any longer.

Also, which of Stan Hugill's books are the most comprehensive. I understand that later editions of 'Shanties of the Seven Seas' were abridged.

Kind regards
Harry

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 08:46 PM

Actually my understanding of how long Cicely Fox Smith was resident in British Columbia (in posts above) was incorrect. Instead of ten years, she arrived in Victoria around 1911 and left in the fall of 1913, according to passenger lists.

Cheerily,
Charlie Ipcar

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 11:20 PM

Harry - a search on "matthew brum author sea shanties" gives lots of references to sea shanties (strangely enough!), & one reference to a Matthew Brum who is on facebook, you could check him out if you are on facebook.

I go to 2 shanty sessions, one weekly & one monthly, but can't help you with which book is best as I didn't even know how many books he published until I found this list on Wikipedia.

The Bosun's Locker, Collected Articles 1962-1973 (Heron Publishing, 2006)
Shanties from the Seven Seas (1961; abridged edition 1984)
Sailortown (1967)
Shanties and Sailor Songs (1969)
Sea Shanties (1977)
Songs of the Sea (1977)

As the world turns & other Catters come on line, someone will know.

sandra

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Harry Rivers
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 03:49 AM

Thanks for that, Sandra.

If I could afford them, I'd get them all, but for now I need to settle on one which covers as much ground as possible.

Harry

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: GUEST,Gibb Sahib
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 03:57 PM

Harry,

_Shanties from the Seven Seas_, unabridged (1961), is the most inclusive and contains the most items. (I will not say "comprehensive.") Don't expect it to tell you all you'd want to know about the chanty genre, or to give you all the items with historical accuracy (I'm sure you don't), but as for Hugill's works, this is the one that fits your request.

That being said, what is in the unabridged edition that is not in the much more easily found/purchased abridged version? Well, the vast majority of extra consists of songs in languages other than English: Norwegian. Swedish, Plattdietsch, Hochdeutsch, French, Welsh... And most of that is not some original "collection" of songs by Hugill, but rather he has compiled those texts from books published in Norway, Germany, etc. So, one can get some French songs from a French-published book on "Chants du Marin" or have them filtered through Hugill.

Other extras in the unabridged are reproductions of songs that are, again, not anything original, such as a Stephen Foster song that is the inspiration for a chanty or something like that. Again, not really useful. I'd say unless you are just a completist who wants to have the full Hugill for the sake of it, just get yourself the abridged edition published by Mystic Seaport.

Hugill's subsequent books:

- The Bosun's Locker, Collected Articles 1962-1973 (Heron Publishing, 2006)
This is a continuation of the soft-scholarship in Hugill's _Shanties from the Seven Seas_, bits and pieces of further thoughts and repertoire items that didn't get into the 1961 work.

-Sailortown (1967)
Not about chanties.

-Shanties and Sailor Songs (1969)
This is as if Hugill decided he needed a more concise book, after the sprawling and badly organized _SfSS_. Hugill's tone of presentation is much more positive, like "This is what it is" as opposed to the SfSS research tone, "This may be what it is" :) In other words, things are boiled down and put in a positive fashion for readers who don't have time to deal with uncertainties and would rather have things told to them as if they were cut and dried. The repertoire included is selective. If I remember correctly, there is no NEW repertoire that wasn't in SfSS. Also, notably, the subject goes beyond chanties to "sailor songs."

- Songs of the Sea (1977)
This is more of a popular "coffee table" book. The music notations and lyrics are impossible for me to read due to the color of ink and the cursive writing. It is geared towards Hugill's international audience, that is, making special appeal to non-English-speaking Europeans, with a lot of Dutch, German, Swedish, etc songs.

I have a series of YouTube playlists in which I have rendered -- a fancy way of saying I have turned all the ink on the printed page into singing -- all of the items in Hugill's unabridged _SfSS_. The relevant purpose of doing it was just that: to somehow make what is on the printed page audible (even if that means having to fill in gaps or guess at corrections). Make other judgements about my "performances" and their intent at your own peril. It was made over the course of several years with a lot of development/change in style and approach. Anyway, it's a reference point (page numbers linked to Hugill are given) to what you're seeing in the full Hugill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVmCbsMzHrE&list=PL58B55DD66F22060C&index=1

Among the popular sources -- compilations meant for practical use -- of chanties, I can also recommend:

Whall - _Ship, Sea Songs, and Shanties_ fourth edition (1920). The tunes and lyrics are accurate. Ignore what he says about the material though.

Bullen and Arnold - _Songs of Sea Labour_ (1914). A very good reflection of the repertoire of a 1870s chantyman. However, some of the tunes are notated poorly. Also, beware that they present the chanties honestly, as lacking any fixed text, which means you have to supply your own lyrics -- which you should.

Doerflinger 1951/1990. Meticulous and accurate, though not as geared towards practical use due to the descriptive presentation of individuals' renditions (i.e. as opposed to prescriptive). This and works like Sharp (English Folk-Chanteys, 1914) are convenient sources of actually-sung lyrics.

My advice... as weird as it will sound... is to read Hugill for the contextual background... then reference Bullen and Arnold for a real picture of the actual repertoire of chantymen... then secure the tunes from Whall... and finally flesh out lyrics with ideas from Doerflinger and Sharp.

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: EBarnacle
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 08:07 PM

To the best of my knowledge, Matt has not officially released his collection. A few years ago, he was handing out notebooks of the words from his collection to selected members of the New York crowd and people he ran into at Mystic.

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 10:15 PM

thanks, EB,

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Harry Rivers
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 01:32 AM

Gibb Sahib: Thank you! Nothing weird about your advice at all and exactly what I was looking for.


EBarnacle: any chance he could be encouraged to drop by with an update?

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Lighter
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 06:33 PM

Hi, all.

The 1969 book contains two items (and perhaps an extra stanza or two) that didn't appear in 1961.

One is an alleged pumping shanty called "Packet Ship." Though it's in English, Hugill notes it was sent to him by a Dane who informed him it was sung on Danish ships. The story it tells in fragmentary fashion - like that of "Boney" - is that of the Mutiny on HMS Bounty. Hugill suggests that this is one of the earliest chanteys, adapted from Britain by teh Danes, but there's no compelling evidence for this.

Another new text (and tune) is a somewhat raunchier and less tuneful version of the "Ratcliff Highway" that Hugill had printed in 1961.

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: GUEST,Gibb Sahib
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 11:06 PM

Thanks, Lighter. My mind must have blocked out those items. (Due to my bias! I pretty much hate that "Packet Ship" song!)

And I did make some good use of some of the non-English songs while sailing with an international crew recently. It strikes me that Hugill's later work is especially suited for the North/Western European world of sail training, "tall ships" races/festivals, and that whole scene, in which "chanties" and "sailors' songs" blur together like curry-ketchup as an accoutrement of the general "Yay! ships and sailing and striped shirts and stuff!" atmosphere.

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: Lighter
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 12:04 PM

>in which "chanties" and "sailors' songs" blur together

Haven't they always?

One difference between Now and Then may be, however, that the ballad-like sailors' songs of earlier times (both "trad" and "composed") couldn't have been automatically associated, as they are today, with the chantey genre. Few non-sailors knew what a chantey was (hmmm...sounds familiar), and there was no recognition of trad/folk/renfaire genres to unite the two.

Subject: RE: sea shanties
From: GUEST,vectis sans cookie
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 12:13 AM

Don't forget Roger Abrahams book about West Indian shanties "Deep the Water Shallow the Shore" lovely book.