Cassettes to CDs - A Moral Question

Subject: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 07:59 PM

I would like to throw this question out to discussion among the membership here, since a great proportion of Mudcatters are either themselves performers or are in some way associated with the Folk Music business. We all agree that copyrights should be protected and that the performers should get every cent of the royalties that are coming to them. Many of us (myself included) have extensive collections of music that we started years ago when CDs were non existant. The lions share of my music is in cassette tape format. I visited Sandy Patton's (Folk Legacy) booth last Sunday at the Old Songs Festival and noticed that he was re-issuing many old favorites that were only available as cassette tapes into CD format. I commented to my driver, Mike, who drives my van to all these festivals that I own practically all these titles in cassette format but would like to get them in CD format so that I do not loose the music when cassette players become obselete. He answered me to the affect that I should purchase the technology to convert cassettes to CDs on my own computer and save a lot of money. When I replied that it would be cheating the artist and record label out of royalties he asked me "Why? You already purchased the music legally once and own it. Are you obligated to pay for it twice just because your original format has become obselete and a new format is now the norm ? As long as the CDs you are creating are for your own personal collection and not distributed to anyone else why shell out the extra money ?" I would like the good folks here to comment on my moral dilemma because I sincerely value your opinions.

                                                 SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 08:03 PM

I think you're thinking too much about the whole thing....

Converting cassette tapes to CDs is a MAJOR P-i-t-A, but if you've got nothing better to do with your time, and you WANT to have CDs with crappy cassette tape sound quality, knock yourself out.... No police are going to kick your door down and confiscate your 'immoral bootlegs'

Conversely, if you really dig the artist, flip them another few bucks for the new CD.... Pry a few coins outa your wad and help a brother or sister out....

Or don't....

Life will go on....

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 08:06 PM

As long as the CDs you are creating are for your own personal collection and not distributed to anyone else why shell out the extra money?

Why? Because the laborer is worthy of his hire-- it is well worth it to pay someone to have made a CD copy available, IMO, rather than chain yourself to the puder to learn how to do it. If you WANT to do it that way, do it by all means! But to pay for a CD is not to repay for the music-- it is to compensate the people who purchased the software and/or equipment to do a good GOOD job of it in enough bulk that they can afford to do it and you (all of us) can afford to pay for it.

BTW, does your pal really think your cassette tapes are in pristine condition and suitable to be reproduced?!?!?!? I know mine aren't and I doubt anyone else's are either.

Is your pal volunteering to do the copying FOR you?

~Susan
YMMV

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 08:09 PM

I see nothing moraly wrong in what has been suggested to you.

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 08:11 PM

I burn a lot of CDs, but have never burned one from a commercially produced cassette. I'd rather shell out the extra money and get a professionally remastered CD, and in the case of people like the Patons, they have invested in the equipment and time to release CD versions of their albums as a means of making a living. I'd hate to deny them that income.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 08:11 PM

I should add, I think it would hover become morally wrong if having made your CDs, you then decided to sell your cassettes.

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 08:17 PM

" Is your pal volunteering to do the copying FOR you?"
Would have to be a VERY good pal, indeed!

"you then decided to sell your cassettes"
They're probably not even worth the plastic they're made out of these days.... so who would you sell them to?

If you know someone I have 30 POUNDS of cassette tapes, I'll sell to 'em for a buck a pound plus shipping

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Declan
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 08:19 PM

Whatever the legal position, I think when you bought the tape you believed you were buying the piece of music, not the piece of music in a particular format. I don't think there is a moral question about making a second copy of something you have already bought and paid for. But this does not mean it is legal.

When we were all buying music on casette did anyone in the music industry put a warning on their product that the quality was low and had a limited shelf life?

There's alot to be said for going out and paying the extra money to get the CD quality, but I don't think anyhone should feel guilty about copying something they already paid for onto a more durable format which carries less risk of having your machine mangle your only copy of the material.

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: frogprince
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 08:24 PM

IMHO driver Mike has it, so far as any real moral issue is concerned.
I have no idea (and don't want to be told) whether the cost of the new issue CDs is of any issue to you, with your personal financial picture. If you can afford the new CDs far easier than the performers can afford to miss a few dollars in royalties, then why not just be a good guy and buy the new stuff.
I have any number of records and tapes that will never appear on CD, and may get at putting them on myself just to save them from time and further deterioration.

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 08:25 PM

I see cassetes sometimes go on ebay, here

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 08:30 PM

There ya go... buy the new CDs, and eBay the old cassettes.....

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: frogprince
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 08:35 PM

There you go; what Clinton said; then compute all the royalty percentages on your sales and distribute them to the artists! :)

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 09:06 PM

Copy the cassettes onto CD using software freely available to all P C
owners - You DID pay for the music on them !! THEN use the obsolete tapes to download any other music that is freely available ! WHEN in doubt , RECYCLE !!!

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: GUEST,Wondering about this
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 09:42 PM

Here's a variation on this moral dilemma:

I have many old LPs that I still own that are simply out of print, and have never been reissued as CDs. A few months ago, while browsing the internet to see if by chance my favorite one had been reissued, I discovered that one of the musicians from the group had put the whole album online on his website. I was able to listen to it all, but had to open the items up one track at a time, and found no way to save the album as a whole to Favorites, just the overall website. (The tracks were not in any of the standard recognized formats.)

I have not yet tried converting my LPs to CDs or MP3s, and although I understand the basic process, I don't have time at the moment to experiment and then fine tune this operation. However, I was able to use the recorder on my sound card (which works like Total Recorder or Audacity), to record each individual track from this website, and then store it on my online music library. I also burned the album onto a CD. All of this is strictly for my personal use, for those times (!!!) when I'm too lazy to listen to the actual LP....

Question: Is this ethical? I own the LP, and I'd be more than willing to purchase a real CD (or download) if one existed, even now, as I'm sure the quality would be better than the one I produced myself. So what do people think?

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 09:42 PM

You are entitled to make copies of anything that you own for your own use--if, for some insane reason, you decided to sell the CDs made from cassette tapes, that would be a problem.   

My problem is that a lot of stuff that I have on vinyl and cassette has never been reissued on CD--

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Ref
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 10:23 PM

Being a lawyer, I can assure you there's no problem converting media yourself for personal use. Being a lawyer (punch line coming!) I'm unqualified to comment on moral issues!

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 10:29 PM

I am very much in the same position as M.Ted. I put a lot of my vinyl on cassettes years ago and archived the LPs; little if any of this material (largely Israeli and Balkan folk dance music) has ever made it (commercially) as far as cassettes. I am now, little by little, pulling out the old vinyl and recording it on to CDs.

A moral question? Not really...there is no other alternative to making my own recordings. Other things, like old Judy Collins, I buy on commercial CD as it becomes available, and the quality is much better. On the third hand, there are some LPs that will never come out on CD because the groups are long gone...like, for instance, Howling Gael.

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 10:29 PM

I know that I am legally allowed to make copies of music that I have properly purchased for my own personal use. The question is What is my MORAL obligation to the artists and my fellow members of the Folk Music community such as Sandy Patton of Folk Legacy who has made the investment to re-issue these albums in CD format. And I am not talking about just a few albums. Sandy has a list of over 150 titles which for me would mean a substatial cash outlay of $2,250 (assuming $15 per disc) for music that I already own.
                                              SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 10:32 PM

"...for music that I already own."

... but not in a format that you prefer to use...

... well you could always just send a 'conscience payment'...

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 10:35 PM

There is no particular legal dilemma (usually) involved in copying a tape that you have purchased for your own use. The customary interpretation of the copyright law, at least in the US, has been that you buy one tape, you are intitled to transfer a copy to another tape or to any other medium so that you have a backup copy for safe keeping. Transfer to another medium is generally an accepted use, if the original is used as the permitted backup or is destroyed. If you choose to play the new copy (CD) instead of the original tape, you are on reasonably safe ground to the extent that there is any such place when lawyers are involved.

If you make a copy to have "one in the house" (CD player?) and another in the car (tape deck?) the safe ground trembles a bit, since you have now made a "second use" copy, which generally is prohibited by the statutes and by the "terms of sale" on the original package, even if both copies are for your own use.

So long as it's for your own individual personal use it's unlikely there will be any objection, and whether there should be any objection probably will be left for you to decide. You can attempt the equivocation that when you're playing one the other is the backup, and you just change your mind frequently, but ... you'd need a lawyer, I'd expect, in the unlikely event that someone did object. If you need two copies, both to be in use, you're expected to buy twice.

Note that attempts have been made to restrict what you can do as described above, but so far as I've heard the above is the current state. If someone has "knowledgeable" opinion to the contrary, I'd hope they'll offer corrections.

If you make a copy to give to a friend, while keeping the original and/or CD copy to use for yourself, then technically you've committed forgery, you're a criminal, you should go to jail, roast in hell, and be spanked in a public place with a dirty board. (i.e. it's something commonly done, seldom prosecuted, but technically at least is illegal.) I would, personally, feel v...e...r...y.....g...u...i...l...t...y if I ever even considered doing something like that (I think).

The real dilemma in the last case arises when you have a recording that your friend can't get by any other means, usually because it's out of print and no existing copies can be found. As long as there's a copyright, it's illegal; but does it do the creator any good if you can't find him/her? ... Comment welcome on this one, and the question has been asked, or at least suggested, above.

The "mechanics" of copying tape to CD are pretty simple, although doing a really good job can be time consuming. The quality you'll get depends mostly on the condition of the source tape. If reissues on CD are available, a new purchase usually is in your best interest if the playback quality means much of anything to you, and by supporting the artists you'll get to feel like a good person. ("Self" is gullible, and will believe almost anything, but it's best to keep it to the easy lies.)

Standard disclaimer: IANAL: but that's what I've been told (I think).

John

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 10:35 PM

The fellow who has put the album cuts online is probably out of line, however, unless his entire band agrees to it being online.

They're not making as many blank cassettes as they used to--in fact, the sources of cassettes have cut down by half and half again several years running. But cassettes are still probably more durable than CDs for in the long run. I have a friend who has decided to hold onto his old cassettes just in case they have an uptick in popularity. I guess he has enough room to store them.

SRS

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 10:45 PM

I gotta learn to write faster. I see that the original query has been amplified to better describe the question while I was (de?)composing.

On grounds that even if speed is a goal, the typing shouldn't outpace thinking, for now I'll stick to SRS's comment re cassettes, and offer that:

Cassettes that I copied from vinyl ca 20 years ago are in very much better shape than the original vinyl. Neither have been played too frequently, but "shelf rot" in the vinyl (properly stored) makes them much inferior to the cassette playback - for most of them.

This is just an observation, not an assertion that one or the other is always best.

John

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 11:48 PM

Everyone who has been around for more than a minute here, knows that I am foursquare against downloading or copying anything for which one has not compensated the artist/label (such as Folk Legacy). I am opposed to it on moral grounds, and have expressed this in many threads.

Having said that, you have no moral obligation to purchase music again. It is a legitimate use of the music you have purchased to copy it to a different format FOR YOUR USE. Burning additional copies for others, or loading it onto a file sharing site, would be morally wrong. Then you would be ripping off the artist. I see absolutely no moral dilemma in you doing as you suggest.

Personally I would just replace them with the remastered stuff as Clinton and Jerry suggested and for the same reasons. But that is a personal choice I would make for convenience sake and for sound quality considerations.

To sum up, copying music you have purchased for your own use is fine and I don't see any moral conflict in doing so.

And as an artist who has recorded, let me thank you for being concerned about this. If only others would share your ethical and moral concern.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 12:17 AM

I'm with Big Mick on this, if you're keeping track of numbers. And I too have music for sale out there. Certainly wouldn't bother me if someone who bought my cd copied it for their own use.

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 12:19 AM

G'day Rabbi-Sol (and all following),

I've made a lot of transfers from cassette and LP to CDs ... and produced good results, with care and good software.

However, I would never go to all that trouble if I could go out and buy a good CD of the same material. there is no way that my carefully copied, formatted, massaged, equalised ... and who knows what else ... version can match a decent made for CD - or re-mastered to CD version. And ... there's no way that my doing the job itself can be done in such a short time that it doesn't equate to much more than the price of any 'full-price' CD.

... but I have lots of original recording, on one or other of the 'pro-grade' cassette machines I own ... or old LPs - or even 78s - that may never see a commercial CD re-release (Or ... that I'm stirring someone to consider such a re-release) and I believe my CD-Rs of this material are, at the very least, fair usage ... and, if they do prompt a commercial release, may even benefit the original artists or their heirs.

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Al
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 01:09 AM

There is no such thing as moral or not moral other than when you assign those qualities, so you are in charge there. Just as there is no good or bad, no right or wrong, other than when you say it is. You create these things. If they serve you well, keep them. If not, dump them like a hot potato. But please don't use them to beat yourself over the head. That would be bad.
Al

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: open mike
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 01:17 AM

This is of interest to me as i aspire to do audio work
one day. I intend to set up a studio where i can transfer
and archive music from older formats to c.d. and I am
interested in knowing if there is any type of c.d. or
format which has been proven to have a longer shelf life.

I hope to be able to transfer 78's, LP's, reel to reel and
casettes to c.d. and I have discussed this with others who
conduct similar business. Thank you for the reminder that
only one copy should be made, and that should be in the
posession of the one who purchased the original recording.

I have extensive collections of Vinyl, 78's and cassettes
with which to work, and hope to offer this service to
others when i perfect the system and the process.

Any suggestions?

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 03:48 AM

For a "permanent" storage medium there is a significant amount of opinion that CDs are about as good as anything that's come along. There are some qualifications to the opinion though.

The "pressed CDs" used for commercial issues, and by some archiving and data distribution folk, are probably "100-year" or better for archiving purposes, if they're kept clean and in good environments.

The "burnable" CDs that you can transfer stuff onto use a photosensitive layer to record the information.

1. There is insufficient information on the long term stability of the photo layer to make any hard-and-fast predictions about how long any of them will last. Accelerated aging tests predict data life approaching, or for the opimists somewhat beyond, the 100-year range - if everything works right.

2. Everything doesn't always work right.

There are a few makers of CD blanks that advertise and sell "spec grade" blanks that should be of known and good quality.

Some advertise "Archival" blanks and these should be "best available."

Either of the above are hard to find and expensive.

Nearly all "retail grade" suppliers of blank CDs routinely swap manufacturers on a regular basis, package everything under one brand name, and hence may vary in quality, with no way for you to tell from the package what you're paying for.

Complaints about inconsistent quality have dropped recently, but there's still the possibility of getting disks from a "less than good" production lot from nearly any of them. Variations that are troublesome vary from inconsistent sensitivity of the recording layer that results in imperfect recording, to inadequate or improper bonding of the multiple layers of the CD that allows physical separation of the parts of the disk, through inadequate passivation of the chemical parts that permits what amounts to internal corrosion within the disks.

For extremely critical stuff, the "ultimate" in reliability is considered storage on Hard Drives. This is not because Hard Drives last forever, but is because in a redundant array, you always have more than one copy, and WHEN a drive fails, replacement of the drive automatically results in replication of the good data from the remaining drives, restoring the multiple good copies. As long as someone is there to replace the drives as they fail, the data is (theoretically) forever. But you still need another copy (preferably in multiples) off-site in case of fire, flood, and/or other "tragedies of life."

But note that neither CDs nor hard drives can store analog information.

John

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Crystal
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 06:07 AM

What if the music you have on your casettes is not availible on CD? How does this affect the morel issue?

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 06:23 AM

It doesn't, at least not to me. I suppose there might be some who felt uncomfortable copying an "in print" cassete to CD who might feel more at ease knowing a new CD copy was not available but I see nothing morally wrong in the first example.

For me, the only reasons I can see for wanting to purchace a CD are quality of recording (?although I would guess it might be possible to make a CD that sounds better than the cassette? I know there are programs that try to remove unwanted noises from vinyl) and the time needed to produce the CD.

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 09:43 AM

a question from a slightly different angle. Although it's a long time since I've done it, I used to quite often put tracks from several vinyl LPs onto a cassette to make my own 'compilation' to play in the car, rather than just copying a single album in its entirity. Since getting a CD player in both the house and the car, and since track selection has become so much easier, I haven't bothered. Now I'm wondering if what I used to do was illegal ...

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Scoville
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 10:09 AM

I usually only put cassettes (or LP's) on CD if they are out of production and/or very hard to get. Otherwise, if I really like the music that well, it's not worth the bother and, as a lot of people have noted, the relatively poor sound quality, even off of pristine CD's. I've got a lot of self-released stuff by small regional bands that have since broken up, and I've tried to get official recordings of theirs, but a lot of times I can't, or it's only on cassette, etc. I don't have a tape deck in my car and cassettes are so prone to getting dirty that I'd rather keep mine safe at home and burn a cheap CD to carry around--if I lose it, I still have a good original from which to make a new one.

I also agree that the artists deserve to get paid for their music. Most of the people I listen to are fairly small-time and really do need the money (we're not talking U2 here). I admit I copied Shades of Two Worlds for some friends but if the Allman Brothers wanted to make money off of it, they shouldn't have let it go out of production (has this been reissued?).

On the other had, along with GUEST, I have made compilations of favorites to play in the car (which also spares me having to haul around my "good" commercial CD's and risk losing or damaging them), but it's for my personal use only. I don't make a bunch for my friends. I'm hoping I can stop doing this once I figure out how to use my MP3 player effectively.

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 11:45 AM

As an artist who has recorded, I say download everything you can....

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 11:49 AM

Guys, let's trying reading but for comprehension. What we are talking about here is permitted and legitimate uses. Now pay attention. There is not one thing wrong with you copying music you have purchased for your personal use. You may make copy after copy for your car, your basement, anything of yours. What you may not do is make copies to sell or give to folks with the intent of avoiding paying for it. This means it isn't for your use. It is a distinction that makes it easy to understand. If you are copying to avoid paying for something that you otherwise would have to pay for, you are stealing. But for you personal use, something you have already paid for is yours to use.

Mick

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 12:13 PM

"What you may not do is make copies to sell or give to folks with the intent of avoiding paying for it."
Watch me
The Canadain Govt. said that file sharing is legal.... So I'll file share, and there's F all you can do to stop me....
I feel no guilt either

So, in this.... do whatever you want RS.... copy the cassettes to CD if you want (It's a major PitA, and they'll sound like crap)
Or download the mp3s that you can find and burn them to CDs (much easier to do and the sound quality will be much better)
Or go buy the CDs.... (might cost you a few bucks, but what else were you gonna do with it?)

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 12:23 PM

I agree with Big Mick.

The last time I read up on my (U.S.) copyright law, it had been built into the legislation that a buyer was entitled to make one copy of a recording for his personal use. I believe this provision was made in the 1970's, when people realized that tape recorders were not going to go away.

Customers paid for this privilege when purchasing the originals, as a fee was deducted from the purchase price and channeled to (I believe) ASCAP, BMI, etc. I suppose this is still the case. (Obviously, nobody in the music industry is going to shout this info from the housetops.)

I feel that when I bought the original, I bought the performance, not the plastic. Moving the performance from one kind of plastic to another is not a moral issue, as long as it's for my own use.

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 01:19 PM

I am interested in knowing why Rabbi Sol believes that there is a moral question involved in this-- there is no contractual obligation of any sort here, so the idea that it is moral to fullfill one's obligations does not come into play, and, owing to the small amount of money paid, no one will be saved from harm by making a payment, so no moral purpose will be served by that, either.

Furthermore, since there is no contractual basis to determine what the payment should be, and since the arbitrarily determined amount would, in any case, be very small, it should be remembered that a miniscule payment of any kind is generally considered an insult by the recipient--

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 01:21 PM

See Clinton, I want you to sit down, grab a Coke and pay attention. This thread has as a part of its title "A Moral Question". You were probably speedreading and read as "Amoral Question". And the folks that are asking, are doing so because they feel a moral obligation towards the artist. You on the other hand do not. That is fine, and you and I have beat this to death.   

The moral answer is easy. If you are getting something that you would otherwise have to pay for, for nothing, you are stealing. Making copies off your own discs for your own use is a fair use. Nothing to worry about on a MORAL basis.

The only exception to this is if the intellectual property owner says it is OK. I did this with the phenomenal western Canadian songwriter Bill Gallaher. I wanted a copy of his first CD which is out of print. I offered to send him the money if he would let me copy Jeri's CD. He said I could pay him, and copy it. Fair play. Then he sent me pdf's of his entire song book because he appreciated the attitude. My guess is he wouldn't do that for Clinton.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 01:52 PM

Mick... I've been given all kinds of freebies by all kinds of artists.....

So you can cram your pathetically school-yard attempts at one-upmanship.....

"they feel a moral obligation towards the artist"
No... they're trying to figure out if they should feel guilty for something.... I'm saying they should not.... Guilt is a bullshit 'emotion', and people who fall for it are suckers.

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 02:02 PM

Your use of the term pathetic is funny and means that you feel wounded. Sign of guilt, perhaps?

No, the whole thread, as defined by its author, is about a moral question. When one has a sense of morals, then they feel guilt when they sense they have done something which they should not have. I have pointed out several times in this thread that there is no need for any sense of guilt as long as one is not stealing as defined by the "fair use" principle.

Folks that recoil at this know they are wrong and worse that they steal. That is why this whole discussion bothers you, Clinton. Because you don't like to think you are stealing.

As to "cramming it", it is nice to see that when intellect and strength of argument don't prevail, just fall back on this type of childish statement.

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 02:07 PM

Not wounded at all Mick.... or guilty.... I suspect you're projecting... again.....

"just fall back on this type of childish statement"
Well, I figured I'd play to a level you could grok

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 02:09 PM

C'mon, guys, huh?

~S~

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 02:11 PM

Nice try, little fella. Your reputation here precedes you though.

Back to the topic at hand. I won't be responding to you anymore on this one, unless it is on topic. Feel free to take the last shot, as all children and immature folks feel they must.

Mick

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 02:38 PM

" Feel free to take the last shot, as all children and immature folks feel they must."

You mean like calling someone 'little fella'?

I say back to you, nice try.....

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 02:40 PM

On Topic... don't let the blowhards try to tell you how you should or shouldn't feel RS....

Make up your own mind, and act accordingly

I suspect you'll find that trying to record cassette tapes to burn them onto CDs is a colossal WOMBAT

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: EBarnacle
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 05:17 PM

Crystal, it's a mushrooming problem.
The whole point is that it's a "fair usage" issue. As you say, you purchased it for your own listening. The format is not at issue. As long as you do not "publish" others' property, you are on firm ground.
It was a pleasure to meet you last Sunday.

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 05:48 PM

In reply to M. Ted. The moral obligation stems from the fact that Sandy Patton of Folk Legacy took the trouble, and made the investment to re-issue all these classics in CD format, with exactly people like me in mind who already own them in the cassette format. I assume he is doing it to make money as he is well entitled to do. My problem is that at present I am unable to make an expenditure of $2,250 that it would cost me to replace all my cassette titles with his newly re-issued CDs. It is sort of the feeling you get when you are used to dealing with your friendly neighborhood grocery store whose owner is part of your community and all of a sudden Walmart comes in and sells the same groceries for 75% less. Sure, you have no contractual obligation to your grocer and the 75% you are saving can be used for some other essential product or service that your family desperately needs. However, every time you pass your neighborhood grocer you are going to feel some sort of a twinge in your heart. Call it guilt or any other term you want to. Same thing here. Sandy Patton is like family in our tightly knit Folk Music community and the software used to convert cassettes to CDs is like Walmart. I can find no other way to express it better.
                                                SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 05:51 PM

Sol, maybe you ought to ask Sandy.

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Cool Beans
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 05:53 PM

Rabbi Sol,
    I'd have no compunction about copying. The recording industry keeps changing formats, forcing us to rebuy music we've already purchased. They seem to have no qualms about the morality of doing that.
    There should be enough new buyers of CDs around to justify Sandy's (or anyone else's) investment in the new equipment.
    Would any of us feel guilty if the seller were Sony instead of Sandy?
CB

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 06:26 PM

If the seller was Sony and the artist was some millionaire rock musician I would not feel guilty. However, when the artist is some poor folk musician who is trying to keep his head above water and the record label is one that goes out of its way to help this musician make it, yes, I think it makes a great deal of difference.

                                              SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Scrump
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 06:40 PM

If the material is currently available on CD, I think the "moral" thing to do is buy the CD, as others have said.

But if it's not currently available on CD, or has never been released on CD, then I don't see it's a problem, providing of course it's for your own use. I've also copied vinyl LPs that aren't available on CD, onto CD-Rs, otherwise I'd never be able to listen to them in the car.

I don't see the problem if you paid for the material in the first place, and the artist has had the royalties. etc. All you're doing is making a copy of something you've already legally paid for, in a different format that you can actually use today. I don't regard that as immoral.

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 07:18 PM

The moral obligation stems from the fact that Sandy Patton of Folk Legacy took the trouble, and made the investment to re-issue all these classics in CD format, with exactly people like me in mind who already own them in the cassette format.

The way I see it is that is purely and simply Sandy Paton and Folk Legacy's business investment and decision. Unless you had given some indication that you intended to purchase some of these CDs and that influenced the decision to invest, when perhpas you might, I can see no reason whatsoever why you should feel moraly obliged.

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 08:29 PM

Sandy Paton made a business choice--he believed that there would be a market for what he has to offer--in marketing terms, part of that market would be created by people's desire to move up to the latest recording technology from their old cassettes--the benefits being improved sound, more flexible playability, and the improved durability of CDs over cassettes etc--although this may seem counterintuitive to some, owning a cassette tape actually makes you more, rather than less likely to buy the same music on a CD--

At any rate--whether you choose to buy from him or not should not be a moral question--do you want what he has to offer? Then buy it. It becomes a moral question when higher issues of harm and good come into play--but the issues could be very different than the one that you pose--it might be morally wrong of you to spend $2,250 dollars on CDs when the money is needed for food or shelter, or to pay a debt, for instance.

It might also be dishonest, and therefore morally wrong, fo you to say that you are buying the $2,250 worth of CDs out of a feeling of moral obligation, or out of charity, to Sandy, when in fact, you are buying them for your own entertainment.

I also think that it would not please Sandy to think that you were buying music from him for any other reasons than that you wanted it, and that you could afford to buy it.

I've met him only once, and I was looking with great interest some things that he was selling--I was sorely tempted to buy them, and said, "I really can't afford these, but..." and in a polite and gentlmanly fashion, he told me that I shouldn't buy anything I couldn't afford.

And, if we are to talk about morality, are there not many issues with much greater consequences for good or harm that we should be talking about instead?

Not such a simple question, is it?

Subject: RE: Casettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 08:36 PM

"believed that there would be a market for what he has to offer"

And what about those people NEW to the music, and the future of keeping the Folk Culture alive?

Doesn't anyone care about the YOUNG PEOPLE anymore?!!!

Subject: RE: Cassettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: EBarnacle
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 04:05 PM

Why not send Sandy a pm and ask his opinion, then post the answer?

Subject: RE: Cassettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 05:50 PM

I plan to call him soon anyhow about he and Caroline doing a house concert for us in Rockland County,NY. I will raise the question with him at that time.

                                           SOL

Subject: RE: Cassettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 07:05 PM

Rabbi, I hope that if you follow the suggestion to post Sandy's answer, you first ask Sandy if that is OK or ask him to post it here, himself. Mudcattiquette takes a dim view of posting PMs without permission.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Cassettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 07:42 PM

I think I agree with the masses of this forum who say that if Rabbi SOl owns original cassettes he is legally within the law to make digital copies of them for his own use providing he maintains ownership of the originals. Rabbi Sol has an additional moral question as to whether this is right when he knows the original issuer is going to some financial and technical trouble to re-issue many of the same lables. I'd say that the moral decision is in the mind of Rabbi Sol. Why not buy CDs you most want to have and use particularly if you don't want to 'convert' the liner notes, and either donate the old cassettes to friends or those who still have tape players? If you want to experiment with conversion, have a blast. I have done both, and my conversions don't sound like crap. They sound like the original cassettes, which in my experience have lasted quite well. I've got 40 year old magnetic recordings in excellent shape (And some in less than magnificent shape - ever 'baked' a tape?)

It has often been a good opportunity to re-listen to an album while digitizing it at the same time.

Meanwhile, I've done some converting from LP's which to me sound better than CD re-issues.

As to reliability of media, CD's are very variable. Cheap ones have a thin metallic layer on one side which will be damaged by just about anything. Others are subject to oxidation and delamination. LPs and cassettes in my opinion are more reliable as to saving something, because when a CD goes bad, it's gone. JohnInKansas is right about hard drive backups. Hard Drives will hold onto a lot of data for a long time, but they need to be backed up, too.

Subject: RE: Cassettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 08:13 PM

This question is not as simple as it seems (or as people make it seem) I'll quote 'Big Mick', but this is not intended to get at him, or anyone else!!
Guys, let's trying reading but for comprehension. What we are talking about here is permitted and legitimate uses. Now pay attention. There is not one thing wrong with you copying music you have purchased for your personal use. You may make copy after copy for your car, your basement, anything of yours. What you may not do is make copies to sell or give to folks with the intent of avoiding paying for it. This means it isn't for your use. It is a distinction that makes it easy to understand. If you are copying to avoid paying for something that you otherwise would have to pay for, you are stealing. But for you personal use, something you have already paid for is yours to use.
Mick (29/06 11.49)

BUT:
The moral answer is easy. If you are getting something that you would otherwise have to pay for, for nothing, you are stealing. Making copies off your own discs for your own use is a fair use. Nothing to worry about on a MORAL basis. (29/06 1:21)

The original purchase of a cassette does not give you the option to play the same cassette in your car, your basement & your lounge all at the same time. Of course, if you are the only person with access to the three sites then presumably only one copy at a time will be in use, but if you take your car out, and play the same music which your partner is playing at home, then are you morally required to pay for a second copy?


Things would be a lot simpler if advertising for re-release on CD said: "Buy this new CD for $14. If you already own this on cassette, send $7, plus your original cassette for an up-grade"
I know this is never likely to happen, so, until that time, people will tranfer cassettes to CD so that they can play them on different systems.


CHEERS
Nigel

Subject: RE: Cassettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 08:28 PM

Rabbi-Sol--

I can see your dilemma, since Sandy has reissued the cassettes you wanted to burn. BUT...I can also see where spending that amount of money in one lump would be a definite problem. So, how about this:

It seems to me that nearly everyone who posted to this thread agrees that it's neither illegal nor morally reprehensible to make a CD copy for yourself of music you already have on cassette. It's highly unlikely that you would normally lay out the money for all the CDs you want in one fell swoop (unless you came into a sudden inheritance). Why not buy the ones you really want right now from Sandy, and burn the others yourself as time permits. Then if you feel the need in the future, you can replace your self-burned copies with purchased ones as you can afford them and want better copies.

Glad to see there are some people who actually listen to that still, small voice inside; and even happier to find there are some who still HEAR it!

Lin

Subject: RE: Cassettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 08:53 PM

No worries, Nigel. I don't see the incongruity. It is about splitting hairs. I don't know any recording artist that has a problem with making copies for use in your home and by your family members. Would we like to sell you, say, 6 copies of all our CD's? Sure. But that is not what we are talking about here. To use the case of my friend, Sandy, would he like to sell you all new copies? Sure. I will let him speak for himself, but I would be surprised to hear him say that Rabbi Sol should buy all new.

The thing that I find villanous is the idea that unauthorized file sharing isn't theft. Of course it is. And the scale of it is huge, so it is a much bigger problem than sharing a cassette with a few friends. I don't like that either, but when you put it out on the net, you are sharing it with the whole world.

I say again, I don't see any moral dilemma here. You paid for it, and you are not beating anyone out of money by changing the format. I would love to see you buy all new from Folk Legacy, but I don't think you are wrong in any way if you don't.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Cassettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: GUEST,Wondering about this
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 10:20 PM

Here's another approach to dealing with the overall copying problem, from the booklet of a CD I bought last year. The group gives an address for buying additional CDs, at $15 each plus shipping, and then states:

"If you copy this recording, please send $10 to (the group) at the above address." and adds an email address for further inquiries.

So...your home grown CD copies are worth 2/3 of a real one!

I wonder how many people have sent them the $10? (I have never copied this CD, so I'm in the clear!) I'm not sure if this still allows for the one personal use copy or not. It's one interesting way of dealing with the problem, however, and most likely some people will do the right thing and actually send the money.

(I guess this isn't exactly on topic, since it involves CD to CD copying, but it seemed related to some of the discussion here.)

Subject: RE: Cassettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 10:38 PM

" I wonder how many people have sent them the $10?"

HA!

Subject: RE: Cassettes to CDs - A Moral Question
From: Genie
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 02:49 AM

If there's a moral issue about making back up copies, CDs from your tapes, or mixes (CDs or cassettes) from the music you have already bought, what then of putting the stuff into your iPod?
Sure, if you initially bought the songs on line as individual digital downloads, that shouldn't be a problem, but if you bought a cassette or CD and made a copy for safekeeping too, is there an ethical question about loading songs into the iPod too?

Genie