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Showing off or performance?
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Subject: Showing off or performance? From: The Shambles Date: 09 Jul 06 - 08:11 AM Performing is generally thought to be a good thing - but showing off is not. Any ideas on what the difference is? |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: Zany Mouse Date: 09 Jul 06 - 08:42 AM I don't know. What I do know is that a lady from Herga Club (when she was at Watford) put me off singing for some years when she announced that most of the floor singers at Watford were merely showing off. Many thanks to The Admiral for getting me singing (which I love) again. Sadly, I'm easily discouraged. Hmmmm Rhiannon |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: GUEST,Jack Campin Date: 09 Jul 06 - 09:09 AM If it's done for the audience's pleasure it's a performance, if it's done for your pleasure only it's showing off. |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: Hamish Date: 09 Jul 06 - 09:12 AM Cockiness or confidence? |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: Bill D Date: 09 Jul 06 - 09:26 AM A flashy banjo player was asked: "Why do you play so fast?" answer: "Because I can!" I never liked that answer. It always seemed to me the music suffered when made to be merely a platform for the musician to get attention. If the song/tune is done well and 'fits', the musician will get the admiration & credit he/she deserves. That being said, there ARE places for showing off...contests and such. I once saw Mark O'Connor and Jimmy Giles in back of a shed at Winfield, drinking beer and 'fiddling each other down'...stuff was done that would NEVER be done on stage. |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: Clinton Hammond Date: 09 Jul 06 - 09:32 AM Someone who is good will say he's performing.... Someone who is not as good and jealous will say he's showing off |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: Dave Hanson Date: 09 Jul 06 - 09:35 AM Showing off is the person who comes to a session without an instrument, [ and we all know them ] borrows one and plays better than the owner, in fact I know a few. I've played in sessions with some really great and famous musicians, and they NEVER do this trick eric |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: JohnInKansas Date: 09 Jul 06 - 09:41 AM As this thread has been far too polite thus far, I can offer a common and recurring comment - "Bluegrass is for showing how good the performer is. Old-Time is for showing how good the music is." As with most generalizations, - not always really true; and "styles" do get pretty mixed up; but sometimes ... John (seldom a performer, and little to show off about) |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: BuckMulligan Date: 09 Jul 06 - 09:42 AM Showing off is a subset of performing; it's a manner of performing. THey're not mutually exclusive - you can't really show off if you're not performing. Steve Goodman frequently showed off shamelessly; I don't know anyone who ever witnessed it who didn't love every note. Taken in the universe of all folks, performing itself is showing off to some extent, vis-a-vis folks who can't perform. I suspect that as it's most often used, "showing off" is a term applied by them what can't to them who can & do. |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: Bill D Date: 09 Jul 06 - 10:01 AM It's a fine line. I saw Graham Townsend, the wonderful Canadian fiddler, agree to a request at the end of his set....he was asked to play "Orange Blossom Special", a tune he didn't usually do, but he shrugged and said he'd do it this once.....and the band who was due up next stood there with their jaws on their shoes as Graham just milked that tune for all it was worth! Not especially fast, but done as well as I've ever heard. He was clearly making a point, but the music did NOT suffer in the process. |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: dick greenhaus Date: 09 Jul 06 - 11:15 AM Showing off refers to the person who's doing it; performing refers to the effect on the audience. No real conflict. |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: Rasener Date: 09 Jul 06 - 11:52 AM I will use an example of my perception of showing off from a non musician/singer performer .i.e. purely audience listener. At Moor & Coast 2005 I saw Ben & Joe Broughton live. Never having seen them before or read about them, I listened with an open mind. At the end of their performance my opinion was that they could certainly play their instruments, but IMHO were playing to a musician audience not a listener audience and I felt that they were just showing off how good they were with their instruments. They left me cold. Having said that, I would certainly recognise their skills. I also saw Real Time who impressed me very much. They had a lovely fiddle player with them called Ian Anderson (I think I have that right). Again this was the first time I had seen them, so didn't know anything about them. That lad had won awards in Scotland for his fiddle playing. I was stunned with his sensitivy and pure beauty of his fiddle playing. He worked for the other people in the group. It struck me that the other members of Real Time were so proud to have him on board, that they occasionnally platformed him to show just how good he was. In this situation, I didn't get the feeling that he was showing off, more that Real Time wanted to show him off. To me Real Time did a lovely audience performance, so much so, I went to see them live the next day as well, and was even more impressed than the first time I saw them. I know I will probably get it in the neck now, but I am genuinly trying to demonstrate from a listener point of view, what I would percieve to be showing off versus performance, even though both of them are excellent in what they do. |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: Tim theTwangler Date: 09 Jul 06 - 12:31 PM A show of to me is someone who cant bear to hear some one else play well. There is a guitar player local to our area who is very good. But he is very annoying at singarounds and open mikes because he seems to feel that if anyone else does well it somehow diminishes his own performance. So he tends to fall of his chair or knock drinks(other peoples) over. He is occasionally crass enough to play the same tune or song directly after someone else has performed it in order to upstage them. I play guitar in my own amateurish way and have several times been asked to play a song only to have somemone else in the room try and put me down by making sure everyone knows they are a better player or singer. If they knew what a waste of their time and effort this is on me they would not bother. I know most players are more profficient than I am but I do it for enjoyment and get genuine pleasure when I play as well as I can and the audience show that they aprreciate my efforts. Performance is great! Show offs a waste of time and tallent. |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: jimmyt Date: 09 Jul 06 - 12:44 PM I think I read that everyones perception is based on thier personal experiences regarding this issue. I might take it another step and say there is a difference between musicians and performers. Now before anyone gets their knickers in a knot about this, I think some folks have both talents equal and others have varying amounts of each. I love music, I love all aspects of it and have been performing on it in some level for 47 years. I started playing trumpet in a pit band at Minstral shows and honkie tonks when I was 13. I sing in a do-wop group now along with a folk group where I play bass as well. I am NOT, however, a musician. I am a performer. I love the audience and it is a mutual experience with them. I love to have fun, cut up, generally have a good time WHILE making music. To some, I am sure that makes me a show-off. |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: The Shambles Date: 09 Jul 06 - 01:07 PM Showing off refers to the person who's doing it; performing refers to the effect on the audience. No real conflict. I agree to the extent that in cases where the is an audience gathered to be entertained - there is little or no conflict. The performer on stage can show off their talents and their ego and the audience will be entertained or horrified and the audience (especially a paying one) will be the judge of whether what they have seen is showing off or (a good) performance. And whether they would do it again. The question is more in informal settings where there is not a defined audience or where some form of audience has gatherered to some extent but not for the purpose of watching any particular performer..... |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: GUEST Date: 10 Jul 06 - 03:54 AM I'd say that a performer does the best they can for the love of the music. A show off uses the music for the love of their own voice/instrumental prowesss. As an audience member I find I can usually tell whether it's the singer's amazing voice, or the singer's choice of a wonderful song that is at the forefront. |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: Nigel Paterson Date: 10 Jul 06 - 04:23 AM A 'Freudian' slant....my Mother described my early attempts at entertaining the public as 'showing off'. My Father praised my 'performance'. Nigel P. |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: Hrothgar Date: 10 Jul 06 - 04:42 AM I'm showing off. On a good day, somebody else enjoys it. |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: The Shambles Date: 10 Jul 06 - 07:19 AM Perhaps showing off is when some performers do not know when their performance is over? |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: jacqui.c Date: 10 Jul 06 - 07:27 AM I agree with GUEST 03.54. Most singers and musicians want to put across to listeners the import of a particular piece, or, if there is no audience, just to enjoy making the music. Show offs are saying "look at me". I have personally known a couple of 'musicians', both of whom played the mandolin, who would effectively overplay the rest of a group of musicians or almost drown out a singer with their 'fancy' playing. One was actually a very good musician but was still too loud. The other thought he was a good musician, but was much too f*****g for the standard of his playing! |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: Tim theTwangler Date: 10 Jul 06 - 07:31 AM Maybe there is the same thing at work with the showing off/performance thing as there is with the very aproachable/Up their own arse after the show performer? I was told I was showing of after strumming all three of me chords perfectly at a pub OM night. Hmmmm or maybe was sarcasm! |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: GUEST,Russ Date: 10 Jul 06 - 09:09 AM I'm not a performer, but I've learned a few tunes for showing off. They're long and complex and notey and if I get them right they are supposed to show off my technical skills. If I get them wrong they clearly mark me as a player whose reach exceeds his grasp. They're good tunes and I learend them because I like them, but my main motivation was showing off. |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: dwditty Date: 10 Jul 06 - 09:28 AM Showing off: When a good performer says, "Here I am!" Performing: "When a good performer says, "There you are!" From Steve Rapson's book - Art of the Solo Performer. (www.soloperformer.com) dw |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: Scrump Date: 10 Jul 06 - 09:30 AM Interesting - I guess it depends what motivates you to perform to an audience. I sometimes wonder why I do it (and I'm sure the audience does too ;-)) In my case I sort of feel I have a need to sing and play music, and of course I could just sit at home in an empty room and do that, but it would somehow seem incomplete without someone to listen to it, or even seem like a waste of time altogether. Performing to an audience (assuming you are at least a reasonably competent performer) should provide the audience with enjoyment. I derive satisfaction from the applause if I do something well. Maybe performers have a need to receive applause, which might be a form of attention seeking, or amount to the same thing as showing off? I don't know. What motivates others to perform (assuming you do it for enjoyment rather than a living)? I'd be interested to know. As for the issue of people trying to outplay others or sing a song that someone else did earlier, that seems outside the spirit of friendliness that I associate with music making. Which brings me to another point: I sometimes have a song in mind for a floor spot or singaround, but someone else does the same song first. I feel it would be bad etiquette to do a song someone else has done, and in fact I would feel that I could never do that song at that venue because the other singer has kind of 'bagged' it as 'their' song (of course I'm talking here about material not written by either singer). But sometimes I feel my version of the song has something to offer and perhaps even immodestly feel I could do a better job of it than whoever it was that beat me to it. I think maybe I could have a go at it on a future occasion, when the other person isn't there, or when I could reasonably pretend I'd forgotten they'd done it first. In practice I don't think I've done this for fear of treading on the other person's toes. Is there an etiquette about this? I don't feel it should be impossible to sing a song that someone else has done, as long as I don't do it during the same evening, or too soon afterwards. What do others think? I assume I'm not the only one who's had this problem. Of course I could get round it by writing all my own material, but that's easier said than done :-) |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: Morris-ey Date: 10 Jul 06 - 10:29 AM Interesting question. I think it is more to do with how people or individuals percieve what is happening. For example, when I danced for the Wyre Forest Morris Men we danced the same way whether dancing for the public or for other dancers (e,g, at Ring meetings). The public would not know enough about morris to know whether we were showing off or not; other dancers would recognise that we were better than them but it would be their perception as to whether we were showing off or not. As it was, when we danced for the public we did so to give them the best show we could (perfromance); when dancing before other dancers we did so to make it clear how much better we were (showing off). |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: treewind Date: 10 Jul 06 - 10:57 AM Scrump: "Which brings me to another point: I sometimes have a song in mind for a floor spot or singaround, but someone else does the same song first. I feel it would be bad etiquette to do a song someone else has done, and in fact I would feel that I could never do that song at that venue because the other singer has kind of 'bagged' it as 'their' song" Not only bad etiquette but make you look a prat for not listening when the first singer did it. I'm not sure about avoiding ever doing that song again at the same venue. The next time you have your club or session I'd have though the coast was clear if you get your chance first, unless the song is a real party piece for which the other singer is particularly famous or it's the only song they know. Also it's not great form to do all the booked guest's songs before they do, which sounds like an absurdly stupid thing to do but I know it has happened. I've also experienced doing a song in a support spot that was repeated by the main guest, who had been in the bar during the earlier performance. Re original thread question: I like the answers that distinguish between (a)"look at me, aren't I clever" and (b)"listen to this tune/song, isn't it lovely" and the latter is, of course, what any musician should be doing. Anahata |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 10 Jul 06 - 05:40 PM I've been told that someone asked Yo-Yo Ma, the great cellist, how he felt about playing six Bach unaccompanied suites for cello for a knowledgeable audience, as he just had that day. Didn't it make for stagefright? "No. I've got something to share, and nothing to prove." Although the questioner asked with reference to stagefright, it seems to me that his answer implicitly applies to the question that underlies this thread. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: wysiwyg Date: 10 Jul 06 - 05:52 PM Wow, I just waded through a couple hundred old gospel quartet songs. For a good many of them, I kept thinking-- "They're just showing off, and it isn't even a good song!" Fast, syncpated, creative harmonies, great voices, wonderful diction-- but why bother if it's a lousy song to begin with?!?!? ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: BB Date: 10 Jul 06 - 07:03 PM I like Uncle DaveO's quotation! That's the key for me - it's *sharing* the material, effectively saying, 'Hey, isn't this a great song/tune!' Or 'You might not have heard this before - what d'you think?' And I think this can apply whether or not you make your living at it - but put yourself in front of the song/tune, and to me that's when it becomes 'showing off'. Barbara |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: Doug Chadwick Date: 10 Jul 06 - 08:09 PM Showing off is not bad in itself but it depends on your motives: If you are trying show up someone else as being inferior to you then that is just being a smart-arse. If you are accompanying someone else than you shouldn't try and outshine their performance. Otherwise, if you are performing to others then what's wrong with a bit of showing off. It would be a pretty dull performance if you didn't. If you've got it, flaunt it. DC |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: Bert Date: 10 Jul 06 - 10:55 PM Well when I perform I always show off quite a bit, that's just me. But mostly I try to entertain. |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: Rasener Date: 11 Jul 06 - 02:12 AM Doug, it depends wether the showing off is entertaining us or not. If you are doing a floorspot, you maybe pleasing the audience that maybe plays your instrument and who will be enthused to see just how good you are, however you could well be losing valuable audience who are listeners and do not understand music only the lovely songs and tunes that you are capable of doing. However if you are in a session, I think that would be different as most of the audience are people who play instruments. It really depends on the type of audience and style of club. My club is concert style. Les |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: GUEST,potbelly Date: 11 Jul 06 - 09:20 AM one is sang parrot fashion, the other from the heart, soul conviction. |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: treewind Date: 11 Jul 06 - 09:48 AM Doug has a point. Here's a more tricky distiction: Is showmanship the same as showing off? I don't think they are the same, though there is much in common. Good showmanship leaves the audience satisfied and entertained, pure showing off can leave them cold. Anahata |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: The Shambles Date: 12 Jul 06 - 02:03 AM If you've got it, flaunt it. The problem in informal situations is a 'no win' one. As no one is going to know you have got it - if you DON'T flaunt it. And if you do flaunt it - you can be accused of showing-off. But it is complicated. At an informal join-in tune session recently there was a musician who in that context was probably showing off. In the respect that they were playing rather obsure and well-practiced tunes that no one else could join in with as they did not know them. Speaking only for myself - it may well have been showing off - but I really did not mind at all just listening to this musician. Had I not enjoyed what they were playing - I probably would have considered them to be just showing off and beng inconsiderate. |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: GUEST,Rowan Date: 12 Jul 06 - 03:35 AM There's another thread going at the moment with similar sentiments being expressed. I'm not sure of the etiquette about duplicating examples of a concept relevant to both threads but the following seems relevant to this discussion. Some years ago I was at an instrumental session in the main bar of the pub in Kapunda, South Australia. There were lots of instrumentalists there, from all over southeastern Australia and the place was rockin' along when an Adelaide local (who'd recently acquired a 6-row Continental system button accordion) started playing the Athol Highlanders. For some reason, the tradition in Adelaide has this tune played in G, whereas most of the rest of Australia plays it in A. To make sense of the rest of this story you'd have to understand the layout of the Continental system keyboard, where, if you learn a tune on just three rows, you can transfer the same fingering up, down and across all the rows and play that tune in every key known. It would also be helpful to know that the Athol Highlanders is played in Australia at a rather cracking pace. Your man played in G and we all joined in. Some of us already knew the SA tradition and were prepared but most others could cope. After a couple of times through, most of the rest of us launched into a repeat with the tune in A; everybody joined in. After the regular 'twice through' someone started it in D and again most of us kept up. Your man then decided he was going to take the tune through every major key. It was easy for him as all he had to do was transfer the same fingering to slightly different parts of the keyboard. All the rest of us, except one, dropped out. Bronnie Evans was new to the folk scene at that time but, even though she'd been playing whistle for only a month or two, she was a red hot whistle player. This was probably because she'd had ten years' classical training as a flautist, although I suspect I was one of only three people in the bar who knew this. Bronnie had been playing her flute when this session started and, even though the Athol Highlanders was new to her, she joined in with a will and played quite competently when the rest of us were playing as well. When your man started 'playing the smart-arse', so to speak she would cock her ear to pick what key it was he's got into, for the first bar or so, and then rip into playing along with him at the same cracking pace. She kept up with him for every key change. At the end of it there was wild applause, all of it for Bronnie. In that example I'd probably agree your man was showing off but he's normally a really good and considerate session player and I think he was just rather excited about having got on top of the Continental-system keyboard. Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: Ferrara Date: 13 Jul 06 - 01:11 AM I expect a good performer to show off their talent by using it well. To me that doesn't mean they're showing off. The essence of performing is to have a talent and use it. However I do often hear/see something I consider to be showing off. The key question, as several people have said in various ways, is whether the listener's awareness is drawn more to the talent, style or technique, or to the music. Does the technique add anything to the music, is it true to the music, does it enhance the song or piece, bring it home to the listener, or is the piece of music just used as a vehicle for the performer's special bag of tricks? Yeah, Steve Goodman could and did show off his various talents in one way or another on almost every song. But he never short-changed the song. |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: The Shambles Date: 13 Jul 06 - 02:42 AM Who is Steve Goodman? |
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Subject: RE: Showing off or performance? From: The Shambles Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:44 AM I consider that "my work here is done" in the classic B-movie phrase. Please now close his thread?
-Joe Offer- |
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