Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK

Subject: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Nick
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 08:43 AM

We are starting to play odd gigs and we need some form of PA and I'm thinking of buying something - but funds are limited!

Is the following likely to be of any use - Wharfedale PA

It's the sort of order of money I have to spend.

Line up is probably -

* 3 mics for singing
* Two or three acoustic guitars (which I presume I could put straight in from pickup)
* Also play bass but would probably do that separately through bass amp
* Might have an electric guitar also (I might take an emulated line out of a small 15 watt amp and pop it through the PA I presume that would be feasible?)
* I thought that a minimum of 6 channels needed

First gig is going to be outside in a courtyard for about 30-40 people
and doesn't need to be very loud - could almost play acoustically I would guess but think amplification would help

In the future we might also do the odd small village hall or room in pub and we do have a more electric band who play stuff like this.

Is this enough or is it underpowered?

Any alternatives given the limited funds and what we want to do?

Thanks for the help in advance. We play on August 7 so time is a bit against me!

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Jeremiah McCaw
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 10:59 AM

Looks like it might do, but that's not an informed opinion. One thing I've found/observed is that you always end up wanting or needing a couple more chammels that what you figured for a minimum.

I've been interested in HK Audio products, which are not available here (Canada) but I believe might be worth looking at for you (England, yes?). Couldn't tell you anything about them price-wise, though. Take a look at:
http://www.hkaudio.com/

Good luck with your quest.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: RichM
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 11:22 AM

It may be worth your while to RENT a pa system for each gig- at least at first. This will give you some familiarity with the operation and complexity of PA.
And the renter may be able to give you "sound" advice about buying your own later.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: breezy
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 11:49 AM

You will need a P A amp with at least 6 input channels

peavey or laney

3 for mics
2 for guitars

and a spare for another for some reason i cant tink of



then there are leads, forget the jack types

how many Mic stands

then there are mics

and decent speakers, maybe stands

extension cable and a baton for a few power lines from the plug in the wall thats miles away.

The w-dale looks too limited for your requirements.

rent

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Nick
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 01:19 PM

Thank you for the feedback I thought it might be a bit underpowered.

I have stands and mics, extension cables and leads.

I spotted this on ebay is that more like it?

I will have a look at rental as well am I right in thinking that £45 without and £75 with engineer is about right?

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: mandotim
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 01:25 PM

Strong recommendation for the HK Audio LUCAS systems. I have the 600 watt version; portable, powerful, high quality sound and bombproof. (Typical German overengineering) Get yourself a mixer, preferably with digital effects, and away you go.
Tim

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: treewind
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 01:26 PM

Take a look at www.thomann.de. Yes, they're in Germany but they'll ship to the UK and it's often still worth it. I bought my EV SX300As there, and the TA1400 amp that drives them.

They have a whole section for PA combos, and there are a few others of similar price to the Wharefdale you're looking at. The Yamaha StagePAS 300 looks like a contender. I've never used either myself so can't give a personal recommendation. For speaker stands, I can recommend the K&M 21450 - very nice and low cost, also at Thomann.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 03:24 PM

Spend as much as you feel comfortable spending (okay perhaps just a little more!), and if the folks can't be bothered to listen sod 'em.....

you made the effort.

there is literally no upper limit to what you can spend on PA. I have spent my proving this point. One word of warning. Power ratings are very deceptive - 500watts is not necessarily five times louder that 100watts.

Tell the guy in the shop you are really interested in buying it. could he set it up for you at a gig. Its good to have a regular relationship with one or two shops. when they know you - they get to understand that its an ongoing relationship and its in their interest to provide something of usable quality.

If you are doing folk clubs - remember alot of them are upstairs and you can afford to sacrifice a bit of volume as the audiences are generally attentive - and you don't want to cause ruptures, carting the stuff upstairs.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 04:37 PM

Way underpowered.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 05:29 PM

That Looks OK-trust that's 230w RMS?.Are Wharfedales charging carriage?Why not nip down to Maplin before splashing out?& remember you've got to carry all that stuff.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Keef
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 06:15 PM

testing, one Choooo....

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Nick
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 06:21 PM

Richard -

Was that both links I posted here as being 'Way Underpowered' what would you suggest is reasonable? The Peavey on ebay at 300 watts per side is in line with what a friend in our village has suggested to me this evening as probably being ok for the sorts of local venues we may play.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Keef
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 06:26 PM

Hearing response is logarithmic, meaning that you need 10 times the power to double the volume.
Because the mixer has 6 inputs does not mean that you can have electric guitars, electric bass etc plus vocal mikes. The bass in particular will sap the power of the amp and knacker the vocals. Next thing that will happen is that the amp is overdriven causing clipping. This means the output goes DC and burns out the tweeters. The sound is now pretty crappy so a well meaning helper will crank up the EQ to get more top end. Pretty soon you will burn out the mid range drivers as well, and maybe the output stage of the PA for a bonus.
(a 20 Watt amp can burn out a 500 Watt speaker if it is overdriven)
When the repair bill comes in it will all be your fault because you bought the wrong gear in the first place.
Enjoy!

I can't get this post to stick, one more go then I give up perhaps it is too early in the morning

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Grab
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:08 PM

Keef, that's *four* times the power to double the volume...

Keef's recommmendation on using separate guitar and bass amps ain't bad, but everything he warns about can be easily avoided simply by watching the VU meter (or the clipping warning lights on each mixer channel, if the mixer has them).

One significant thing the Wharfedale missing is any kind of foldback. If you haven't got foldback, you can't hear yourself or each other - you can get away without in small places (where the PA sound reflects back off the walls), but in larger places (and especially if you ever play in a marquee) it's essential.

Consider spending as much as you can on the electronics initially - as many channels as you can, with a foldback output. If you're after sound reinforcement in small places initially, small (and cheap) speakers will get you by to start with, and you can upgrade to bigger speakers later. The small speakers will still be useful in future - you can use them for foldback, or you can keep them as an option for use in small upstairs folk clubs. :-) But if you buy a crap mixer to start with, all you'll have when you need to upgrade is a very expensive doorstop and some big (and probably rather average) speakers.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Keef
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:41 PM

Nope...it's not exponential it's logarithmic (based 10)
Hence the Decibel scale.
To save getting into that arguement..here is a clicky...
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/dB.html

All the other stuff is based on personal experience. The bass guitarist knew full well he was overdriving the amp but "it sounds best that way and hey I'm a muso right?"

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: GUEST,Texas Guest
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 09:10 PM

Well, Nick, as Gregory Peck said to David Niven in the movie, "The Guns of Navarone," "You're in it now,...right up to your neck." Take the following for whatever the hell it's worth - here in the states we have plenty of sound options but, every where I go I run into folks using a "Mackey" powered mixer. I also see a fair amount of
Peavy and Yamaha powered mixers, too. Speakers seem to come from JBL, Carvin and Yamaha and are either self-powered or run off of the
mixer.

My tale: I'm a solo performer and I use a Yamaha EMX-640 that has two
power units in the mixer - 500 watts total output @ 250 per unit - that lets me run a "main mix" and a "monitor mix" separately at 250 watts each, or a "main/main" mix at 500 watts. There are six channels to plug inst/mics into. My speakers are Yamaha and I do not
remember their number or name, but they are 12" w/horn and they have served me well.

There have been two instances where I have had to do sound for a band using my system - both Celtic shows - Smithfield Fair, using all six
channels (3inst/3vocal) and another, Idle Road (5inst/1vocal) and I
have to say the system did a great job. Having said that, I'm not a sound tech and I'm sure fault could be found by some one who has a more discerning ear; however, in both cases the band was satisfied, the audience was satisfied and the promoter was satisfied - all good things. By the way, one show was in a cavernous quanset-hut type structure and the other was an outdoor festival.

With all of that in mind, if you're doing more rock stuff, I'd go
with as much power as you can afford. Mackey, Peavy, Yamaha and others make similar set-ups to mine but with 8 instrument channels
and two power units at 300, 400 or 500 watts per channel. At 500 watts per channel and two 15" speakers w/horn I would suspect that
you could cover your bands needs quite well. Good Luck.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 03:13 AM

500 watts RMS might just be enough.

The Yamaha seems quiet for the specification and is not cheap.

Avoid the Fender suitcase-pack like the plague.

The Peavey suitcase-pack is not bad, but has not got enough inputs for you, and may not be quite powerful enough.

The Thomann is not bad.

Much to my amazement the Phonics sound quite good for the money, but do remember to put any piezo pickups into the ultra HiZ inputs.

You may find a second-hand Peavey 680S PLUS (must be the PLUS, the 680S has not got the power) at a sensible price, as they have been around for a while, and although I am not usually a fan of the Peavey sound, which tends to be thud at the bottom, but scratch and tizz at the top without much tone in between, they seem to be relatively road-proof.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 01:29 PM

I can confirm the Yamaha is too quiet despite its impressive rating. Iused one for a Derek Brimstone gig in a very reasonable church hall and it really struggled - Del doesn't have a pre amp on that old guitar, which didn't help but really 500 watts or so should have eaten the room.

Certainly the peavey one at 500 watts - or is it 300 a side would do. peavey is good news when it comes to PA's and guitar amps. I love Yamaha guitars, but the Yam PA didn't stay too long on the staff.

I almost feel guilty. I have two Pa's in my studio I'm not using(got a heart condition, and I don't think I'll gig again). I can't quite bring myself to sell them yet.

Peavey and carlsboro are contenders. Peavey have a good guarantee if you buy it new. H and K are expensive and most people have the big bass speakers as well as the little speakers if they have big gigs.

the other option is a second hand Mackie but they are still expensive. SRM 450's second hand are about £600 a pair and you need a mixing desk - another hundred or so. But they are bloody good. Probably the best at the moment.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 01:48 PM

Actually, I find SRM450s, even with the subs that go with them, very harsh and scratchy.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Nick
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 02:32 PM

Very helpful. The depressing bit is realising I will need to dig a little deeper into the pocket :) and even then that there is always something a bit better if only...

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 02:58 PM

Here is a reasonable powered mixer on ebay but it will not take piezo inputs without a buffer

Studiomaster

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: mandotim
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 03:08 PM

Hi Richard! I used to have one of these, playing through a pair of Black Widow equipped Peavey Hisys 2 speakers. Great rig for a rock sound, not as good for acoustic based stuff, which is why I sold it. It needed either a preamp or a good DI box to get a decent piezo sound, as you describe. Well made and solid though, stands up well to gigging. For what Nick describes, I still reckon Hughes and Kettner would be very good. They are pricey new, but I dropped on one on ebay for around £500, and it's worth every penny. There's one here ebay
Might be worth a look Nick.
Tim

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Nick
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 03:13 PM

I'll watch the studio master - (showing my ignorance) is a buffer expensive?

£500 - £750 is getting to much for me where we are at the moment but thanks

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: mandotim
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 03:25 PM

Hi Nick; don't forget that you'll need some substantial speakers to go with the Studiomaster; Peavey Hisys with an appropriate rating in good nick will set you back £250-350 a pair, plus stands and leads etc. A 'buffer'; I think Richard means a DI box, and you'll need one for each instrument with a piezo pickup; say £25 apiece. (Jump in if I've got that wrong, Richard!) Add that lot up, and you're into HK territory anyway, and you won't get anything like as good a sound from the Studiomaster, especially for vocals. With the HK you'll only need to add a mixer (Alesis, Peavey,etc are good, and Behringer are mega-cheap.) Get one with built in effects, should pick one up from ebay for around £100. It's a really bad idea to try to economise too much on PA gear, as a poor sound can cost your reputation and future gigs. If things don't work out you can usually sell it on again; I sold my seven year old Studiomaster/Peavey rig for exactly the price I paid for it, and the buyer got a good deal. Don't forget decent vocal mikes either; the ubiquitous Shure SM58 would be my choice here.
Hope this helps, if not with the bank balance!
Tim

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: mandotim
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 03:35 PM

While I think of it, remember the advice of the late, great Jerry Garcia on PA volume; 'Either you eat the room, or the room eats you'.
Tim

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 06:42 PM

Hi Mandotim. Yes - buffer amp, DI box, guitar preamp - all do the same job for this purpose namely to let the piezo pickup see the really really really high input impedance it needs. It MUST be an active DI box. There is a Behringer one you can run in stereo (ie use it for two guitars at once) you can get for about 25 quid.

If your piezo equipped guitar/acoustic bass/mandolin etc have a decent preamp (Fishman is the industry standard) in them, then you will not need a DI box (or buffer amp). I got a belt amp from the USA for $25 for my mandolin which had no preamp for the piezos in it. LR Baggs Paracoustic is nice (but very dear) so long as idiots do not twiddle the slider settings. If they do it can ruin the sound of a nice guitar until intelligence is re-applied, I've seen it done. My camping guitar I put a cheap Shadow piezo in it and cut a hole in the side for a cheap pre-amp/graphic that I got off ebay for £20.

I would NOT use Hisys speakers for acoustic - thud and scratch as I said. The cleanest PA tops I have at the moment are a pair of proprietary wedge shaped tops I bought with no drive units in (cost, £40) with an Eminence Sigma 15 plus two Motorola powercell piezo horns in each. Took a bit of woodwork. Total cost for two 350 watt RMS 8 Ohm tops with almost indestructible tweeters - about £150.

Use separate bass amp at this power level. Hartke are lovely but costly. The little Behringer tries to look similar and is awful.

Do not DI the guitar amp for electric guitar. Mic the cab. The distortion that a guitar amp is designed to produce sounds lethal through horn loudspeakers. The cone loudspeaker in the guitar amp will not reproduce the extreme spikes and mic-ing that will sound a lot sweeter.

HK have got better, but I remember seeing an awful lot of blown drive units from their PA cabs, and heard some very rattly ones still in cabs, at North West Kent College a few years back and I have never really trusted them since.

Mics, Shure are the industry standard but you can save a lot of money and sound just as good, or better, with a carefully selected AKG.

Make your own speaker leads with Maplins HIFI cable and Neutrik plugs.

I think you'll need an amp to drive the foldback off that Studiomaster, one of the old H/H 100 watt things you can get for a tenner or so will do. You'll need a couple of monitor wedges too, the little Laneys are good but you can build your own cheap with an Eminence Alpha 12 and a Motorola powercell.

Carry a lead tester box. The time they save over piddling about with a meter is amazing. Always carry spare guitar and speaker leads.

Oh, yes, the Studiomaster is heavy. That is why it punches its weight sonically (lightweight power supplies are not smooth) and tends to stay working.....

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: s&r
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 07:49 PM

There's a lot of good advice here, but I suspect way over your current budget. I would rent or borrow or give your clients a PA spec - they might hire in for you.

We built our PA up over many years, adding to it and replacing as needed and we could afford. Currently I own the band PA. This was expensive, but there are no problems when someone leaves the band

My observations are that there is a growing need for extra channels - you think you need six, then you need an extra one etc. We've had most success by using separate amps and mixer. If you need extra oomph it's easy to add a couple of speakers and a power amp for a big gig.

Speakers are important from many angles: a good rule of thumb is that good gigging speakers that are robust, aren't as sensitive as you would wish, so you need to drive them with a bigger amp than you might expect.

Outdoor gigs suck up sound, and the sound changes as the temperature drops.

Just some rambles..

Stu

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 03:49 AM

The studiomaster is still looking cheap at the moment. It will manage a small courtyard. Open air in the sense of "in the middle of a field" demands HUGE power. To play to 2,000 people in a field you will want 20,000 watts.

The Studiomaster will handle the pop/rock band stuff you specify for a small pub back room up to about 150 people, so long as you do not start mic-ing the drums, but I note the band you compare with uses electric drumkit or programmed drumbeats and if you want to use electric drumkit or programmed drumbeats you should allow another 1,000 watts minimum just for the drumkit.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 04:12 AM

that Peavey pa that nick found on e-bay looked like excellent value. You could do a great deal worse, and if it doesn't suit you could sell it on again.

It will get you out and you can learn the basics of eq ing. and it would make a nice one to keep in the top room of a local pub and just have a blast with.. If there are not enough inputs get a mixer - there really nice mixers now for about a hundred/hundred and twenty. Again - I like mackie - but Richard seems to know a lot and perhaps he will be able to point out an even better choice.

No point in putting yourself under finacial stress at this point when you're not really sure of what you want. open your account and get the ball rolling. Keep your eyes and ears open and you will have a clearer idea of what you want in six months. And youare not selling your audience or your musicians short - you are simply making an interim arrangement which - who knows, may turn out really well.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Nick
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 12:34 PM

Thank you all very much for the help and suggestions. I had pretty much come to the same conclusion as WLD (not to be confused with weapons of little destruction?) in the last post - ie to get something, get used to it, learn its pluses and limitations and then review things a bit into the future in the light of whether we are getting to play anywhere and resell what I don't want back on ebay.

The studiomaster went for £160 I see and I am currently looking at another very similar spec one having now got some feel for price.

Thanks again - I'll let you know how I get on once I have bought one and then everyone can tell me "I told you so!" :)

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 04:22 PM

best wishes Nick - I am sure we all wish you the very best in your musical endeavours - keep us all posted as to how it goes.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Spot
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 03:28 AM

Nick..
       Allo...I have a mint Mackie 1402 desk for sale in UK west Mids...excellent piece of kit but surplus to current requirements......PM for further info if you interested.
                Best Regards ...Spot

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 03:37 AM

Good desk. But only 6 mic inputs - the other 4 channels are stereo channels for things like keyboards or DJ decks and not a lot of use for the described purpose here.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Grab
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 09:30 AM

Thanks for that link, Keef. Sorry - mistook my voltage and power dBs!

Re Richard's comment about speaker cables, there's no need to get hi-fi speaker cable or anything like that. (In fact there's no need for hi-fi speaker cable on hi-fis either.) Get yourself a nice fat bit of mains cable, and stick your Speakons on that. All this "OFC braided" crap is just a big con - no benefits for sound or reliability. Gold-plated connectors are worth getting though.

A few years back, there was an article which got some prominence in the hi-fi world. Some speaker manufacturer was at a show, and everyone was raving about the quality of reproduction and everything. The article author asked afterwards what cables he was using, and the manufacturer pointed to a reel of bog-standard mains extension cable, saying that it was the best thing they'd found to connect speakers up with. So much for the "Golden Ears"... :-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 09:50 AM

It's a matter of current capacity on cables. If (as on each set of my subs) I'm running 3 kilowatts into 4 Ohms, then P=IsquaredR so I=root P/R

So (if everything were DC which it isn't, but it makes life easier) current is getting on for 30 amps.

The biggest 2-core mains extension cable is under a third that.

Housing cable, in up to 30 amps (twin and earth) is very good, but it is a bugger to work with being so stiff, and very prone to fracture. Almost no capacitance or inductance losses both of which can be problems with brads or twists. I do use it (properly supported) inside speaker cabs.

The Maplins HiFi cable has a nice big cross section which I'd trust to about 20 amps and is fairly cheap. I buy a reel every time I see it on special. The real mcCoy 5mm (square mm)armoured sleeved speaker cable costs the earth, is too big for most connectors and won't go throughthe hole in many connector covers.

THe Maplins hi-Power cable is thinner, don't go there.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Jeff Beck
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 11:07 AM

Blimey I wish I'd paid attention during maths & physics!!!

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Nick
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 12:28 PM

Well I ended up buying a pair of JBL TR125 speakers and stands, and a Phonics Powerpod 1062 with 375 watts per side.

Can I thank everyone for their help especially Richard Bridge who was incredibly helpful to me and whose support was way above the call of duty :)

If you're ever in North Yorkshire come and find us and I'll buy you a beer.

I now have it learn how to use it and will probably be starting a separate thread later for a crash course in setting it up and getting a reasonable sound out of it so that I roughly know what I'm doing on Monday when we play...

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: pavane
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 02:09 AM

Just remember that you get most volume with the tone controls LEVEL. Start turning up the bass, like everyone does, and it overloads at a lower volume.

Most of the club singers we have heard around South Wales seem to like singing in the bathroom. Reverb at full often to hide a lack of voice. (Mrs Pavane only uses a little, and sometimes forgets to switch it on at all).

It is also common to hear distortion introduced by overloading preamps - how they manage it, I don't know, but you hear it even at low volume.

Mrs Pavane uses a pair of Black Widow Peavey Hisys XT2s too. We listened to a number of options in the shop, nothing else came close. But Bl**dy heavy to carry upstairs.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: s&r
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 02:55 AM

Richard - your calculations are correct for amplifiers driven by sine waves. The intermittent nature of music means that the average power used by a 3K rig is much less than its 3K maximum, and the heating effect on the cables is much less than if carrying mains current driving a 3kW heater.

stu

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 03:48 AM

Yes, I said it was a simplification. I grew up in the days of Sinclair power ratings also known as "WFT" (wishful thinking) watts.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: pavane
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 05:26 AM

AH! The old class D (Pulse width modulated) amp! X10, wasn't it?

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 05:43 AM

It sounds vaguely familiar. What I remember was that their watts seemed a lot less pokey than anyone else's watts.

I should also have pointed out to S&R above that I have successfully managed to turn amps off on their thermal trips before now, and that means by definition that the true average power being drawn exceeded the amp's capability and would have been heating the speaker cable commensurately.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Grab
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 01:53 PM

Ah, all is clear, Richard. 3kW is a bit more than most of us use! :-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 02:48 PM

On one occasion at a 'Town Festival' in a park we had a Folk stage with two 100 watt amps driving a pair of 2 X 12 speakers each ! We were actually louder and clearer than the official PA Van !!
The amps were a HH MA100 and a Fender Six channel mixer amp !
Sometimes , rated wattage doesnt mean lots of loud !!

Subject: RE: Tech: Help-Is this PA suitable/Alternatives?UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 03:28 PM

It was for a "metal" band in the modern sense of the word on both occasions.