e f d s s examinations

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 03:12 AM

Dear Rowan,re Anglo    I dont want to comment on anyone who hides behind the petticoats of anonymity.I try to adapt my teaching methods to suit the pupil, I dont insist on them reading music, I will teach people by tab or a b c, or tonic solfa, I always Make it clear that with ttraditional music the best way to memorise it is to sing or diddle it, so my methods are not all that formal , more a question of trying to suit the pupils particular needs. What I do think is important is for people to understand what they are doing. this doesnt mean people have to read music, its not my preferences that are important but the pupils, after all they are paying.Personally I think the very best idea is for FOLK MUSIC to be included in the national curriculum , For four or five years at primary school[ as the jesuits used to say, catch them before their Eight and they are yours for life]. in the meantime the examination system is in my opinion the next best thing. I will now try and find the comhaltas syllabus. if Scotus could give us an idea of the scottish syllabus that would be useful too.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 03:57 AM

This book is 50 pages long.on the back of the book it says for further information contact SCTexaminations         comhaltas ceoltori eireann.32 belgrave suare. monkstown. co dublin.
phone[phone] fax[phone]. email; enquiries @ comhaltas. com
       elementary cycle 1
    performance
casndidates will be asked to playany two tunes of their own choice[here are a few examples]Maggie in the wood. Rakes of mallow, shoe the donkey,sheebeag, sheemor,The foggy dew. napoleon crossing the alps, and more. divided into sections of marches,dance tunes and airs.
   Aural awareness. candisates will be asked.
1.to clap the rhythym of one bar in 4/4 as demonstrated three times by the examiner.
2.to differentiatebetween high and low notes[ between the root d and the d1above[not less than a fifth apart] played twice on an Instrument by the examiner.
3.to differentatebetween loud and soft notes, and long and short notesplayed twice on an instrument by the examiner.
   informal musical discussion.
candidates should be ableto talk brieflywith their examinerabout their interest in traditional music, including how and where they learn and how much time they spend at it[ a clever child could bullshit this].Itcould be beneficial tohave someknowledgeof other traditional instruments.
   literacy.
candidates, shouls be able to recognise where d and d1 are on their instrumentsfrom written examples.
Thats it there is elementary cycle 1 2 and 3. junior cycle with five levels .senior cycles with four levels. suggested melodies for all levels, and useful listening material and discography. and a list of advised topics for written submission.Unfortunately the way the melodies are chosen does not allow for different difficulties in different instruments.but i still think its been carefully structured . if you want further detail contact above as I am going to play some music . I dont suppose i,ll get a thankyou from anglo, or an apology, as i say I DONT know who he / she is

fortunately

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 04:00 AM

corrections , it should be square noy suare. and the phone no is3531280 0295, not3511.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 05:27 AM

to greg b, I would say that I get pleasure when I perform something well,But this means I have had to work hard at it to get it right. Yesterday I wrote a song, the guitar accompaniment is quite jazzy chordally, but after hours of work some satisfaction was derived .Part of the problem in Ireland now, is that parents want their children to have oppurtunities that they never had[ [nothingwrong with that]. but they then encourage their children to have so many activites on different nights of the week, that they cant do any of them properly, and they just get a superficial knowledge and end up doing nothing very well. Personally I have never wanted to do anything apart from play music[ Apart from a brief period of four years when I was under the misguided influence of that dangerous man Timothy O leary].

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 06:49 AM

Malcolm Douglassays he doesnt think its EFDSS role to do this, what is their role/ is it solely to run a saturday night dance club and a tuedsay folk song club.Ithink they should be pressurising this government to at the very least reintroduce folk song in primary schools through the reintroduction of national folk song book, and country dancing . Brian Peters says I doubt if they have the money, if thats the case they should get off their backsides and have a recruitment drive,, and members should be standing up at the annual general meeting and asking why isnt their the money for these ideas.and what is membership money being used for. if COMHALTAS can do it in Ireland with a population of four million and englands population is 50 million, what are EFDSS doing . they are supposed to be the english folk dance and song society, if it s not their job whose job is it, its not the international concertina association s job, nor is it the job of the royal preservation of english monuments.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 07:09 AM

EFDSS doesn't run the Tuesday night folk club!

Have you looked at their website lately? They did get folk dancing on the national curriculum even if it isn't specified as English folk but they have quite a lot going on on the education side as well as being responsible for the Vaughn-William library.

Also, these are not government organisations, although they do get grants, and it's not their 'job' to do anything - it's done for the love of it.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 07:49 AM

I am glad to hear they are doing things on the education front, so the have got folk dancing on the national curriculum[ in how many schools]. what about folk singing, people pay membership to EFDSS they have a right to know how their money and grant money was spent. correct me, if Iam wrong but EFDSS are not run entirely by volunteers, do they not have paid staff , if they do it is their job. why is folk dance given priority above folk song. Comhaltas manage to promote each equally.Istopped being a member of EFDSS because of their withdrawal of support for folk song festivals, dont they still run dance festivals and dance clubs, if they do then perhaps that shows their bias.out of curiosity who is their patron now, it used to be Princess Margaret.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 08:07 AM

They don't run dance festivals or dance clubs. Dance clubs can be affiliated as can song clubs but are independent. EFDSS does have paid staff but they act as the members (or the committee elected by the members) direct them. That's their job. The job of EFDSS as an organisation is to carry out it's declared aims and objectives.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 08:23 AM

I apologise manitas,i am happy to use the word remit, if its mutually acceptable, would you mind giving me your time to tell me their declared aims and objectives . I would be much obliged thanks.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 08:41 AM

http://www.efdss.org/aims.htm

I'm passing no comment as I'm still reading them but thought I'd post the link quickly.

The 2 thread may get confused but the question was asked in this one!

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 08:42 AM

here we go http://www.efdss.org/aims.htm

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 08:44 AM

Snap Paul

Just reading them it's a bit thin on detail.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: Marje
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 09:34 AM

Having skimmed through all the above posts, I can see why some people object to the idea of examinations in traditional music, but the more I think about it, the more the idea appeals to me.

I can't see the problem in setting up a series of graded tests that could run in parallel with the RCM grades that exist for classical music. Some of the core stuff (the aural tests, the "practical musicianship" etc) would be broadly similar, but when it came to playing, it would cater for traditional instruments, tunes and playing styles. Sure, there would have to be some tricky decisions taken as to what tunes, what styles, what techniques should be promoted, but it wouldn't be an impossible task and could be very rewarding.

I'd like to see, for instance, more emphasis on aural learning and memory as well as written notation; more encouragement of use of both instruments and voices (all instrumental players should have a go at singing, and vice versa); more emphasis on improvisation and on ensemble playing or harmony singing.

As to repertoire, there's a huge wealth of songs and tunes out there, some of which are already used in the classical syllabus (and given the plonky-plonk piano accompaniments with fancy chords that we know so well). Wouldn't it be great to hear these tunes being learnt by students as folk pieces and played in traditional styles?

I'm not suggesting that taking exams in instrument or voice should be forced on children, but some kids do enjoy the challenge of graded tests and are motivated by getting through the grades. The children who take exams in classical music don't all end up hating it and finding it a chore - on the contrary, many go on to keep it as a lifelong hobby. Why not offer them the opportunity to try studying and making music of a different genre?

And I don't think it would be beyond the wit of EFDSS and/or associated organisations to seek to define some aspects of English tradtion that all children in schools could usefully and enjoyably study. I'd like to see our children learn about, say, how sea shanties came into being and were used; how broadside ballads were used and popularised; who collected and passed on the tunes and songs we now regard as traditional, and how this was done; what accompaniments were used, if any, for songs in the past; when the various instruments now used in traditional music came into being, and some of the distinctive features of each one (e.g how many people in England actually know that there are any bagpipes other than the Highland pipes?); the origins and background of traditional dances (morris, maypole, rapper, country dances, etc). And if they don't know who Martin Carthy is (or Ewan MacColl, or Shirley Collins) it's about time someone told them.

I'm getting quite excited now - can I write the syllabus? It could really be very worthwhile and interesting.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: Anglo
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 09:35 AM

Rowan, there is no animosity between Captain Birdseye and myself, we've never met, we live on opposite sides of the Atlantic and as far as I know this is the first thread on any forum that both of us have said something. So there is no "history" between us at all.

The Gigue on John K's first LP, by the way, is by Johann Mattheson rather than Bach. His musicianship has always amazed me. I couldn't play like that in a million years, even if hell were filled with anglos rather than out-of-tune accordions.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: Anglo
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 10:00 AM

Captain Birdseye, I do regret my early hasty remark on this thread, as I tried to express before.

This is the Mudcat forum - I am a reasonably long-standing member of Mudcat. I have always used my handle of "Anglo." Many of the other contributors to this thread have handles which do not identify them, I don't know who most of them are either. But I wouldn't go around accusing them of "hiding behind the petticoats of anonymity."

If you're so desperate to know who I am, I'm sure you can find out by searching through some of my Mudcat history for threads where my personal identity was relevant; I have not tried to hide it. I choose not to advertise it, as I'm sure many others here do.

Perhaps you should also search after the personal identity of Scotus - I mean, he was an examiner. For myself, I thought about being a judge, but I didn't have the Latin :-)

But hark! Marje (whom I don't know either) has just appeared as an ally on your campaign. But then she would have you learn about MacColl, Carthy and Collins, rather than, say, Pardon, Elliott and Taylor. Would you have her do the syllabus as she offered?

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 10:22 AM

Here I give you page 44 of comhaltas syllabus, because its not too long.LIST OF ADVISED TOPICS FOR WRITTEN SUBMISSIONS [ SENIOR CYCLE ONLY]
musicians a early musicians.
         b 1950to 1970.
         c. Present day.
    a patsy touhy, Micheal Coleman, james Morrisom,, Hughie Gillespie,, John Mckenna, Johnny Doran, Paddy Killoran,William Mullally.
    b Felix Doran, Paddy Cronin, Denis Murphy, Sean Mcguire,Georgie Ross,Ciaran Kelly,Paddy o Brien.and another 16 others.
    c MATT MOLLOY,joe Burke, sharon shsnnon paddy keenan,Seamus Creagh, and another15 others.
musicians from the candidates own locality, or musicians not on the list but known to the candidate or family, can also be used, provided they are of similiar interest or standard as the abovelist.
cont information about instument makers in the locality at national or international levels.
informatiomn about collectors local or otherwise. e g o neill, giblin, bunting, breath nach,etc
information about composersand up to modern times,paddy fahy , sean o riada, sean ryan liz carroll etc.
sean nos singers,30 examples.
qther names will be accaeptedif of similiar interest and standardas with traditional singing, eg paddy tunney and nine other examples.
festivals of traditional music, willy clancy week etc.
groups and their development of their music, THE CHEIFTAINS DE DANNAAN ETC
    Miscellaneousset / ceili dancing and theirdevelopment, teaching methods in music, tutors, music and computers, and12 others
    it is also possiblefor the candidateto selecta topicof own choice, provide it isof similar interestand stansard to those listed above.
I THINK THAT IS FAIRLY WELL STRUCTURED.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: Scotus
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 10:28 AM

Captain B - I don't have a copy of the RSAMD syllabus, but I do know that students must study two instruments plus either Scots or Gaelic singing. During their studies they are tutored by recognised 'masters' in the various fields they are covering and they are also placed with mentors in their home geographical area for part of each year when they are also expected to carry out field research.

Jack

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 10:30 AM

well, as you will see comhaltas adress this one pretty well, pardon taylor,in one section. macoll, carthy, collins. in another no problem.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 10:36 AM

Well it looks like the promotion of english dance AND SONG is within their remit, and they ought to get their finger out and start pressurising this government to include english song in the primary school curriculum, as either an examined or non examined subject.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 12:20 PM

Captain Birdseye,

"...its better than the competition system, which is more subjective"

I agree that the competitions system is subjective.
I assume that everybody who is involved in a competition system agrees.

However, for me that is one of its most significant advantages.
Not the subjectivity, but the universal knowledge of that subjectivity.

Perhaps newbie contestants might not know but it is something that is quickly learned.

So, here is my STRONG claim:
An examination system is JUST AS SUBJECTIVE.

You might think I am talking about the examiners, but I am not.

I am referring to the system itself.

A number of participants in this thread have made the same point. I am just going to be blunter.

The creation of a curriculum dealing with traditional music will be just as much an exercise in arbitrary subjectivity as the judging of a competition.

For me that is one of its most significant DISadvantages.
Not the subjectivity, but the fact that it is not as obvious as in the case of competitions.

Here's a thought experiment. I'll use a hypothetical example from my own musical background.

Suppose your examination system comes into being and I look over the curriculum.
I notice that J. P. Fraley (Eastern Kentucky) is on the list but Ernie Carpenter (Central WV) is not. I an intimately familiar with the music of both fiddlers. I know, from my own experience, that both are equally excellent fiddlers. However, they sound as different as two people can sound who are playing the same instrument. So, what conclusion do I draw from the curriculum? Simply that whoever created it prefers J. P.'s sound. That preference is just as arbitrary and subjective as any contest judge's. I don't have a problem with that preference per se, but I do have a problem when that person's (or committee's) personal preferences become a norm.

I am not suggesting that subjectivity can or should be eliminated, but we should always be up front about it.
At least, in a competitive system, nothing is hidden behind the curtain.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 12:47 PM

ah but with an examination system as I pointed out earlier there is not just two winners, Children can feel good about acheiving a pass or a merit or a distinction, particuarly if the parents and teacher handle it properly, furthermore its done in private unlike the competition system, I am convinced that fewer children will be discouraged with an examination system than a competition system.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: Marje
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 12:50 PM

Anglo, I wasn't suggesting that the three names I gave should be a definitive list, to the exclusion of all others. It was because someone up there remarked that few people had heard of Martin Carthy that I mentioned him and the other two, off the top of my head, as an examples of "revival" singers who deserve to be better known outside the folk world. Of course there could be a place for the "source" singers and musicians too, although there is less good quality recorded material to draw on, which could be a problem.

Of course there would always be disagreements about what should/shouldn't be included in a core curriculum, but that's no reason for never attempting it. Whatever was decided would have to be provisional and flexible, so that the syllabus could adapt to new ideas and suggestions as it went along.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 03:18 PM

Captain Birdseye,

It all comes down to priorities.

For me, the fundamental subjectivity problem is telling.

For me, as a con, it outweights all the pros.

For me, it is better that traditional music be allowed to die a natural death than to promote a particular arbitrary subset of it. That turns "traditional music" into a caricature and an artificial construct. Not a good thing, to me.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: JamesHenry
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 04:25 PM

An interesting thread with some equally interesting ideas but really, what planet are you living on regarding inclusion in the curriculum? It's my observation that teachers are under enormous pressure to deliver ever improving results to satisfy the insatiable appetite of that monster called the SATs. It seems that Literacy, Numeracy and Science monopolise a childs' education up to KS2 level and every other subject has to fight for whatever time is left.
I suppose that dance could find a slot within the P.E. syllabus but who's going to teach it? Budgetry restraints and lack of expertise within the average primary school would make this a non starter except possibly as a one-off experience. Literacy could, I suppose, accommodate a unit dealing with traditional music but I can't see this having the effect that some posters seem to envisage.
Dancing round the maypole might be ok in rural schools or schools in the leafy suburbs but in some inner city schools where in the case of boys, if you still have your own teeth at 10 then you're sexual orientation comes into question, then I can see a great reluctance to participate.
Then the suggestion that Martin Carthy should be imposed on children, who need excitement and stimulation, is another no-no. Martin Carthy is an aquired taste much better left until an individual decides for themselves if that is the road that they want to take.
I think the best that any of us can hope for is if individual schools have the will or the forsight to expose children to the delights of country dance and traditional song but as in the case of RE, methinks other cultural traditions will compete, rightly so,for equal exposure.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 05:31 PM

There is an amazing suggestion earlier in this thread, that people ought to study Martin carthy, Ewan McColl, and Shirley Collins(this in the context of a discussion about exams in traditional music). Now, I am a huge admirer of Carthy, McColl and Collins. But I am perfectly sure that none of the three would describe themselves as traditional musicians. They do stuff with material of traditional origin, as did Vaughan William, Benjamin Britten and Percy Grainger before them. But that does not make them traditional musicians, which is another thing altogether (of course, it all depends on what you mean by "traditional". or "folk", for that matter).

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 05:39 PM

ha ha ,Now the planet where I come from,I would impose Tony Rose on them , in my opinion the greatest folk singer of the 20 century they could have, dave burland , nic jones, martin carthy, Peter bellamy.louis killen and uncle Tom cobbleigh and your goodself.probably an improvement on rap. England has a cultural heritage, the same as Ireland and Scotland and Wales and this should be encouraged.Now if i went to saudi arabia, I expect to respect their culture, I wouldnt drink alcohol,I expect to be able to hear the traditional music of Saudi Arabia, if people go to Ireland they expect to hear the traditional music of Ireland, So whats wrong with coming to England and hearing the traditional music of England, and the best way to keep that going is to encourage it in the primary school curriculum whereever possible. now i dont mind encouraging other cultures too in fact I am very fond of Indian music. but if I Went to Saudi Arabia I bet I wouldnt be encouraged to listen to English traditional music. these things have to be reciprocated. political correctness can sling its hook.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 05:48 PM

To Greg stephens, the irish dont mind studying later musicians look at my thread, page c44 of comhaltas syllabus, why shouldnt people study Martin Carthy as well as Joseph taylor, Carthys singing style is partly derivative of taylors . so its perfectly logical. Shirley collins and Ewan macoll, have also been greatly influenced by traditional singers, so again not lacking in logic.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 05:57 PM

to Greg Stephens, Folk music is only defined by the folk. [Chongo chimp.] what do you mean by the folk. you still havent answered. and is folk music in your opinion Joseph Taylor but not martin carthy, or is that just traditional music, is Joseph taylor TRADITIONAL MUSIC and Martin Carthy NOT. for crying out loud .

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: JamesHenry
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 06:03 PM

I'm a bit miffed Captain that you've put me after uncle Tom Cobblers.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 06:51 PM

Captain Birdseye --

I know who Anglo is (and I'm sure a lot of other musicians and folkies on both sides of the pond do, too) but I have no idea who you are , so who, exactly, is "hiding behind the petticoats of anonymity"?

Linn

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 06:56 PM

In the conversation so far the references to Martin Carthy et al seem to describe them as representative of 'an English tradition'. I've got no quibble with such a representation but it seems to me to be beside the point as far as exams in traditional/folk music are concerned. Captain Birdseye's listing of the Comhaltas test contents struck me as very similar to the Grade 1 Theory exam run by the Australian Music Examinations Board (AMEB) which all the music teachers around here put students (including my daughters) through. I think it was Scotus who listed a similar set of initials above and I suspect many countries have similar arrangements. There are also practical exams along the same lines. But they're almost always done 'out of school' and as extras to the government school system.

This means there are two quite different types of learning going on. The school music teachers try to teach in an educational context while the extracurricular music teachers try to teach in a more 'training' context and usually have particular specialisations. The content of the AMEB courses strikes me as concentrating on understanding and technique and, given that the repertoire is mostly 'classical' (or 'high', 'art', or any of the usual euphemisms) there is a concentration, not on any performers but on composers. In the town I live in (population ~25k but, importantly, with a university) the extracurricular music teachers encourage students to participate in Eisteddfods, which are basically competitions. Here the categories of music are much wider and include 20th century, pop, jazz etc so that the classical 'lump' is somewhat leavened. But again, while the emphasis is on the student's performance there is still a need to provide the adjudicator with a written score against which the performance is measured. Most of these are by known composers but there is one local who listened to my playing of the Abbotts Bromley Horn Dance and went and arranged it for a recorder consort so some trad stuff gets in.

The reason for the length of this rave is that almost all of the people named above as terrific exemplar,s and thus who ought to be more widely known in a populace regarded as 'educated' in (specifically) English folk music, are "performers" rather than "composers". Now I know the more experienced among you will be able to quote items that each of the above has composed but I hope I've made the point.

And to use Martin Carthy as a particular example of a related point, a friend of mine had a tape of Martin singing "January Man" in Coventry Cathedral that he'd bootlegged at the performance. It was very clear that Martin started singing the piece in his consummately polished style but, two lines into the song, recognised the acoustic qualities of the sound space as offering potential for something spectacularly different and then delivered spectacularly.

An adjudicator measuring against a score would have marked the performance down. An examination wouldn't have even recognised it. A Certificate IV in audio and video production (a Vocational & Educational Trainiing Board industry qualification) might prepare a performer to be aware of acoustic potentials and a BA (Trad & Now) might write an excellent review of the event. And some others who heard it and who have better credentials than I may vehemently disgree with my perception of the event.

Exams may be helpful to some but as Russ pointed out, they're deceptively subjective and, as he also pointed out, have an amazing ability to fossilise outlooks.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 10:17 PM

To bat goddess, if youd gone back over some of my other postings, you would have seen that I have sometimes signed my name. Anglo was rude and negative, He has subsequently apologised, so as far as I am concerned the matter is ended. I am Dick Miles, I still dont know who Anglo is and am no longer concerned.your posting adds nothing of value to this discussion.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 10:56 PM

Rowan , do you think it would be a good idea if Comhaltas replaced competitions with exams. Comhaltas have since they were formed managed to prevent the irish music and singing tradition from dying and turned it into a flourishing and strong position, they have given alot of people pleasure and done many good things, mainly through the competition system.They have also altered the tradition they have tried to preserve by giving so many marks for ornamentation[ some competitors believe that they have to have more and more ornamentation,] the exam system doesnt put so much stress on ornamentation, I see that as a good thing.By the way I dont think I have once called Martin Carthy a traditional singer, it may have been implied, the whole point is that comhaltas exams [see page 44,] show that whether a performer is tradional or revivalist is not that important, another healthy sign, the one flows into the other.I mentioned it as being EFDSS REMIT. because they are supposed to be the guardians of english folk dance and song. however newcastle university seem to be taking a more positive attitude at the moment. In Ireland the irish folk tradition ,including maypole dancing is taught in most primary schools.The facts are that comlhatas have been responsible with a much smaller population ireland 4million, england 52 million,in preventing the disappearance of irish traditional music. england can analyse, look at some of their ideas, and draw inspiration from the irish example, as scotland and Newcastle university have done.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 04:31 AM

"Captain Birdseye" aka Dick asks some questions of me and makes a couple of explanatory comments. In response I offer the following.
The caveats are;
1   I'm not English (so my comments may not be pertinent),
2   I have no intimate experience of the Irish system apart from being in Ennis for the major Fleadh of the relevant year (ditto)
3   I have biases based on experience of both exams and competitions (again, ditto), and
4   I an interpreting all of this from a very southern hemisphere perspective.

So here goes!
EFDSS & and the notion of a remit;
My recollection of EFDSS is that it is an institution with a constitution (and thus Aims & Objectives), members are volunteers who elect a Management Committee which sets policies, makes decisions and employs staff to execute/implement said decisions. I haven't read the documentaqtion for some years and don't have the time at the moment to deal with web searching. If the aims include lobbying government then their remit is as you describe and much of what you suggest as desirable is capable of being put to the management commitee and voted up or down.

EFDSS as "the guardians of english folk dance and song"
I get very uncomfortable when I hear people talking about "guardians" of anything, let alone such tenuous entities as "english folk dance and song". After all, look at what us 'colonials' in Australia have done to things the English have regarded as perfectly good. And then look at what those ex-colonials west of the Atlantic have done to them. If you were to replace "guardians" with "promoters" (which is what I think you really meant anyway) you'd be on a better wicket.

So, how should EFDSS promote english folk dance and song? Best?
To get at this properly I think I'll first have to get past the proposition that Comhaltas is responsible for managing "to prevent the irish music and singing tradition from dying and turned it into a flourishing and strong position".

You may well be right but I suspect there's a lot more to it than Comhaltas. The Irish diaspora helped quite independently of anything Comhaltas may have achieved. Three jumbo (Boeing 747s) loads of people coming to Ennis, just from one US city (Boston) just for a weekend (which is what I saw) had nothing to do with Comhaltas. It was the engagement with the music, 'the crack', that got beginners hooked. Back in Australia the sessions were red hot. For some they still are and neither competitions nor exams were responsible really. In fact, many Irish sessions are so exclusive that those who can't trot out the very latest reel at high speed can be given the cold shoulder. Some years ago the predominance of such 'Irishness' (and I mean no disrespect to the multitudes of really nice players - in all senses) that "The Old Empire Band" was started as a reaction. This was an eclectic collection, in any city and at any occiasion, of characters who were prepared to play specifically English dance tunes in sessions and at dances. I think 43 players on stage at once was the record and it was a mighty spectacle of concers, melodeons, accordions, bass trombones, whistles, flutes, fiddles, mandolins, banjos and even a french horn. all in perfect accord.

My suggestion about enlivening the understanding of English folk dance and song would concentrate on getting people engaged in its liveliness. Would EFDSS be the best mob to do this? I don't know but I suspect not. I hesitate to draw on Australian experience here because so many things here are different from both UK (50 million, in your estimate) and US (250 million plus) as well as Ireland (4 million?); we have 20 million spread out across much the same area as the contiguous US. This affects one's approach to folk festivals, in ways that I think engage people in the music.

When I lived in Victoria I was 7 hours' drive from Adelaide & Kapunda, 8 hours' drive from Canberra and 10 hours' drive from Sydney and I could easily attend weekend festivals or perform at dances/concerts in any of them. Maldon (1 hour away), Nariel (3 hours away; BTW Sidmouth I gather is only six months older than Nariel's festival) and Numeralla (5 hours away) were the only regional festivals I concentrated on apart from the National. These days I can get only to a couple so I go to Nariel (between Christmas & New Year, 12 hours away) and the National (at Easter & permanently sited at Canberra, about 10 hours away) and the characters of these two are a bit different from most northern hemisphere offerings I've come across. The main thing about Australian festivals is that they tend to dismantle the distinction between "producers" (the musicians, performers, organisers etc) and the "consumers" (the audience). Participation, by all comers, in all things is different at each festival but routinely encouraged and well managed.

To me, this would be far more productive in achieving Dick's desires than either competitions or exams but the English context may well require levels of such things that might not be welcomed or required in Australia. This may not be very helpful to Dick so I'll try to directly address his request re 'exams vs competitions'.

I suspect both would work better for children and younger adolescents than for anyone else and I suspect that neither would work particularly well unless there was active parental engagement in the traditions as part of the family's normal activities outside the context of the exams or the competitions. School teachers are already overloaded and under resourced but the effects of their "educational" endeavours on english folk dance and song might be mightily assisted by EFDSS or the Newcastle graduates developing and producing teaching materials that utilised english folk dance and song. If I sat down for half an hour I guess I could produce a collection of Australian music to illustrate any topics in the history/ social studies/ geography/ personal development/ PE curriculum. Maths and science might take me a little longer but I reckon its doable and that's with only 200 years of material behind me. Doing it for England should be a doddle!

Despite my protestations and biases there'll always be a place for both exams and competitions when teaching/learning theory and/or technique. It's just that I don't have much confidence in their ability to inspire and inspiration of the young (and old) seems to be what's needed.

A bit of a rave, and possibly not as helpful as you wanted but it's offered with good intentions.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 06:56 AM

Thats all very useful comment.
    Since efdss have given up promoting folk festivals [ a mistake in my opinion]Sidmouth is a good example,the festivals that they used to run have become much more commercial, bums in seats orientated. this has good points and also bad points, the main one being the more minority interest of folk music gets jettisoned because its not commercially viable.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 11:30 AM

To be fair, even when it was the Mrs Casey behemoth of previous years, Sidmouth provided smaller-scale venues where proper traditional singers could be heard in an appropriate setting. It might not have been what the majority of festival goers necessarily sought out, but it was there. Whitby, another festival formerly run by EFDSS, has always included its fair share of traditional performers too.

I'm not in favour of a shameless bums-on-seats booking policy either, but large-scale, well-run festivals certainly attract encouraging numbers of the younger people you're hoping to enthuse.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 01:07 PM

Fair comment, however I have been heartened,tosee,the hallamshire inititaves, and whats happening inwales too . see efdss role in the c21 century

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: Scotus
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 04:05 PM

I should have explained that the RSAMD is the Royal Scottish Academy of Music and Drama in Glasgow. These days it is really a University of the performing arts. The students following the degree programme in Traditional Scots Music are encouraged to build onto that a teaching qualification. My information is that successful graduates become full-time performers, arts officers in local authorities, music teachers in schools etc. Personally I think that having music teachers in schools who have a thorough appreciation of traditional music is an enormous plus (so is having arts officers in LAs with that background, I'd have thought).

Onward and upward,

Jack

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 04:17 PM

YES, I would agree with you, people sympathetic to traditional music in local authorites is very important as well.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 04:05 AM

The suggestion of exams for traditional music raises a number of questions in my mind, the foremost being 'why? What would such exams achieve?' If exams inspired further interest in a subject the world would be full of people with an avid desire to find out more about literature, mathematics, languages, algebra, science, religion…… you name it, I sat the exams (and failed).
Who would oversee such exams - ? Captain Birdseye answered himself when he questioned the role of EFDSS. Holding Saturday night dances – you got it right there. This is the activity that seems to be the raison détre of that august body. Any attempts to divert them from their purpose may be judged by the events surrounding the proposed sale of Cecil Sharp House some years ago and the resulting manoevers. Sure, the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library, thanks in the main to its librarian, offers a wonderful service, but this, it seems to me, is despite the Society rather than because of it. The last contact I had with EFDSS, was in the form of a somewhat conspiratorial round robin from the editor of one of its publications; the subject - Ewan MacColl's war record! The idea of discussing his contribution to traditional song appears to be as far away as it ever was.
So if not EFDSS – who? Nobody springs immediately to my mind.
There has been some (little) mention of our source singers (notably an insulting dismissive "elderly, quivery" one), but much of the discussion seems to centre around whether it is desirable to sound like Martin Carthy – is he really the yardstick with which we judge good and bad traditional singing nowadays – oh dear!   
Such a project pre-supposes a consensus of opinion on what we mean by good traditional music and singing – of course, no such consensus exists – we don't even appear to have a consensus on what the tradition is, never mind what is good or bad.
Now if the preparation for such an enterprise meant efforts would have to be made to reach a consensus – now there's a thought. However, that won't happen. Today's revival has a built in defence mechanism consisting of terms like 'folk police', 'finger-in-ear' and 'purist' to ascertain that the status quo is maintained. I still have fond memories of the mind-numbing if predictable response to Pat Mackenzie's and my efforts to get a debate going on the pages of 'The Living Tradition' some years ago.
Bert Lloyd suggested in 1967 that a re-definition of folk song might be necessary. No re-definition has ever taken place but there seems to have been a drift so far away from the original definition that the term has become meaningless. Until it is decided what should be taught and examined it seems to me to be futile to attempt such an enterprise.
Incidentally, Comhaltas did not "prevent the Irish music and singing tradition from dying and turn it into a flourishing and strong position". Many rank-and-file branch members played their part in passing the music on, but nowadays the Irish traditional music scene has taken feet of its own and is flourishing without (and in some cases in spite of) Comhaltas. There are a number of striking similarities between Comhaltas and EFDSS, the main one being the lack of understanding of the leadership of both organisations regarding traditional music. The difference between the two bodies is the enormous sums of money at CCE's disposal to promote their somewhat idiosyncratic view of that music.
Jim Carroll
PS Hello Martin.
It is true that there is no firm evidence linking Riverdance and Comhaltas, but as we speak our SOCO team is sifting through what we have so far and we are confident of an arrest in the not-to-distant future. I don't believe it was a coincidence that Riverdance got such a warm mention in O'Murchu's 1998 report on Irish music and it has always seemed to me a that their performance is a natural development of what passes for traditional dance in Comhaltas.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:37 AM

Much of what you say is good,however you are too harsh on comhaltas. they do in their own way try to encourage song as well as dance, you may not think it is the right way thats only your subjective opinion. others would disagree with you [ including the thousands who go to all the fleadhs[[ many of these are not competitors]]and get great pleasure from the informal sessions which are a spin off]sorry, but Comhaltas is the rank and file members as well asthe paid staff and they were responsible for the prevention of the extinction of irish traditional dance and song , along with people like the pipers society.It may be flourishing now but thatis a reult of comhaltas and the piper societys past efforts. My advice to you is to join comhaltas and try and change the things that need changing from the inside, somebody in comhaltas is doing the right things by introducing seisuins nationally throughout the summer introducing exams as an alternative to, or as well as competitions.and locally my comhaltas branches have informal sessions round the fireside for children and adults, as well as assisting and promoting tradional music in schools. The difference between the two societies is that comhaltas is much more active[ this is not just because of funding]its about the enthusiasm at grass roots level of the members to promote song and dance]Finally if efdss isnt getting the funding that is probably through their own mis management and lack of government pressure and lack of enthusiasm, however even in efdss i see some positive encouragement of dance which is good even though it could be more.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 04:52 AM

Sorry Captain,
I didn't sign up to tilt at windmills, especially huge stone-built ones that don't move when you try to push them. I think that you will find that in the case of both organisations their policy is writ in stone and is protected from above. Neither strike me as democratic organisations which bend readily to the will of the membership.
You might like to recall what happened to the West London branch of CCE in the 70s (supported by catholics, protestants and heathens like myself - I wasn't a member). The leadsership decided to collect money for a plaque commemorating Pearse, the branch said they didn't wish to raise money for a political cause, the leadership disagreed, the branch was expelled en masse, became the West London Irish Traditional Music Association and ran highly successful sessions which included Bobby Casey, Roger Sherlock, Raymond Rowland, P J Crotty, John Bowe, Tom McCarthy - the cream of London Irish music.........
The Willie Clancy Summer School is the most successful Irish music event in Ireland. From the beginning Comhaltas declined to participate because the founders refused to hold competitions! The truth is that Irish music no longer needs Comhaltas.
A whole generation of young musicians has now sprung up and are doing very nicely thank you without the need of Comhaltas, many of them taking teaching students themselves and ensuring that the music will survive for at least another generation (and not a competition in sight).
That the leader of CCE is a state senator is not a million miles away from the fact that his organisation has ready access to large amounts of funding.
Now maybe if an EFDSS member could be elected MP - now there's a though....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: Mo Bradshaw
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 05:00 AM

I have just picked up on this thread and probably haven't read it carefully enough, but there are a couple of points I'd like to make.

Not sure about exams as such, however,it is possible to be assessed in other more realistic and less threatening ways, through observation and portfolio as in NVQ,(National Vocational Qualifications), or OCN(Open College Network). I have witnessed the power of a recognised achievement on the self esteem, to say nothing of future prospects, of people who had previously thought they were not capable of participating in further learning. With the correct support, everyone is capable of achieving at an appropriate level.

Also, as a member of both EFDSS and Comhaltas, and with several years experience as the parent of a competitive Irish dancer, I decided to study the issue of competitions in traditional music, song and dance for my MA dissertation.
My view is that competition in itself is a natural element of human behaviour, and is a motivating force for many. Also, standards are improved, and innovation within the boundaries takes place. If it becomes too restrictive it stultifies development, and I know this is one of the criticisms of Comhaltas - one that I do not entirely agree with, however.
What is important,I believe, is that the competitions are only a part of a wider group of activities, where the skills gained in the competitions not only have an outlet, but a social function. You only have to witness the sessions at a Fleadh, (from regional to All Ireland level) where youngsters who have been competing,their teachers and adjudicators, along with other musicians of all ages and standards, meet and play together, to realise that there is a lot to be gained.
The Irish dancing scene, however, is mainly focused on competions, and has produces a very stylised form of dance. It is governed, not by Comhaltas, as has been implied, but by two other organisations, the most significant being An Coimisiun le Rinci Gaelacha. My perception from involvement in Irish dancing competitions and Comhaltas is that there is very little communication between the two organisations, certainly in England. The main effect of this is that there are dancers who compete, and ex dancers, who don't! The social occasions for using skills are not there, and I have experienced 'champion'dancers who could not dance to live music at a session because they are only used to dancing to very strict tempo playing(mostly from CD)
This is a very long post, for which I apologise, but I wanted to contribute to a fascinating thread.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: Betsy
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 05:18 AM

......and then fill festivals bills with ONLY people who have passed their exams ........?
The Folk scene has been sanitised enough by pseuds over the years .
Sing and play, what you want, when you want, and how you want, and as much as Martin Carthy is a good, honest bloke and performer, save me from the increasing R-soles who copy his manner and style of singing.
What a wonderful thread to bring some of the loonies from under the floorboards.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: Mo Bradshaw
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 05:27 AM

You don't get any other job just on the qualifications passed. Ability to perform and entertain surely should be the booking criteria.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 08:09 AM

If my earlier threads had been read carefully, it would have been noticed That isaid that the purpose of the exams should have nothing to do with getting a job. After all iam an unqualified professional folk singer. my only qualifications are that i have been singing playing ,and hopefully giving people pleasure for over thirty years.But exams can be useful for retired or elderly people too, helping to keep the brain active etc, and they may well want to do exams in traditional music, people like lucy who recently passed her classical violin exam, [see that thread]. no one should be made to do exams , adults are capable of making their own choices, but shouldnt the choice be there, thats what comhaltas should be praised for, and perhaps less of you would be against the idea if efdss introduced it for adults only, and it is another way of bringing in revenue.thankyou betsy I appreciate eccentrics and loonies too.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: Mo Bradshaw
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 01:14 PM

My comment re jobs was in response to Betsy's post - not in relation to the thread in general.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 01:23 PM

I don't know how it is in the UK - having moved to the West of Ireland eight years ago.
I know that the number of youngsters playing music here has increased enormously over the last few years and many of them are now taking pupils themselves.
Last Saint Patrick's day here in Miltown Malbay there were around fifty school-aged children on the parade playing instruments, nearly all pupils of local volunteer teachers. There isn't a local Comhaltas branch here.
I have seen the competition ethic drive hundreds of youngsters away from music while I was living in London - killing their interest forever.
It seems that now youngsters are playing purely for the love of it.
Long may that continue to be the case.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 04:24 PM

Well I tend to agree with you jim, i suppose there will always be children who enjoy competing and they should have the oppurtunity if they so wish, the problem is the parents[ and not all parents dothis]who are too pushy. Competitons are perhaps better for adults and elderly people who use the competition as a focus and are mature enough not to be upset by the results, the same could be said for exams. although I think exams, because of their private nature ,and the wide scope of marks between pass and distinction, are an alternative for the less competitve child, I am convinced less children will be put off by the examination systemthan they are by the competitin system.

Subject: RE: e f d s s examinations
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 05:07 PM

Well I have given Jims comments some more thought, but before that , I would like to add that .
I have myself gone into local primary schools on an unpaid basis[ and not as amember of comhaltas] and taught and played for maypole dancers.
    I see an analogy with comhaltas and efdss         and the philosophical idea of the state politic .that the state should disappear when its not needed any more. many communists believed this should happen in an ideal world, the lack of state was known as anarchy, not chaos. but each person being responsible and mature enough not to need any guidance from the state. whether it would ever work is like x, an unown quantity we havent got there yet.but maybe in milltown melbay they have in the musical sense.