what has e fdss done to promote traditio

Subject: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 11:40 AM

What has e f dss done to promote or instigate traditional dance and song in northern ireland,and is it their remit to do it there, or is there a seperate ulster folk dance and song society. i know its included in comhaltas remit, but it is still unfortunately in the united kingdom , so logically efdss should be promoting dance and song there as well as comhaltas.

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: Polly Squeezebox
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 11:52 AM

Perhaps it's me being a bit dense - but doesn't EFDSS stand for ENGLISH Folk Dance & Song Society? Perhaps what we need is sn organisation promoting the traditional dance and song of the United Kingdom - question is, would that now include the traditions of other ethnic cultures than White British who have been born and raised in the United Kingdom?

Polly

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: treewind
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 11:56 AM

What does the 'E' in EFDSS stand for?

They don't particularly promote Welsh or Scottish culture either, for the same reason. Wales and Scotland have their own folk culture-promoting organisations.

I don't know about NI. If comhaltas operate there (as they do in England too, of course) what's the problem?

Anahata

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 12:17 PM

o K , under their aimsthey talkabout promoting english folk dance and song nationally, do they mean just in england, or do they mean the united kingdom . i googled up scottish folk dance and song society, there doesnt appear to be one, there is an ulster folk song society, just curious why therewasnt a scottish folk dance and song society and also if there was anyone in northern ireland promoting tradional music other than comhaltas and the armagh piper society. can anyone inform me if there is a welsh folk dance or song society., and what its called thanks.

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 02:48 PM

For Scotland try the Traditional Music and Song Association of Scotland.

EFDSS has no remit (if that's the right word)to promote English song and dance outside England, although it does promote interest, within England, in musical traditions from other parts of the world.

As for the suggestion that Northern Ireland is culturally a part of the United Kingdom, you would be well advised not noise that one around anywhere where Irish music and song are celebrated.

For information on organisations promoting Irish musical culture, the best place to start is Taisce Cheol Dúchas Éireann in Dublin, although they are closed at the moment and in the middle of moving premises.

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: Jacob B
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 05:07 PM

For Scottish dance, try the Royal Scottish Country Dance Society

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 07:17 PM

I did not say it was culturally part of the united kingdom, but it is still not governed by dublin like the rest of ireland .but is still governed by england, so[ all the point is only academic]it could be argued that folk music in ulster is entitled to english grants etc,until it becomes governed from dublin.

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 01:54 AM

Britain not England

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: GUEST,Mo the caller
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 02:11 AM

I've got a bilingual book of'Welsh' Barn Dances (actually a lot of them are standard barn dances renamed) and on the front page it says that CDWC stands for Cymdeithas Ddawns Werin Cymru. I recognise dance and Welsh so maybe thats the Welsh EFDSS

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 03:35 AM

"folk music in ulster is entitled to english grants etc"

What grants?

All Ulster needs is Stormont to be working, and they can hand out their own money (wll Britain's money and Europe's too) like the Welsh Executive and Sottish Parliament do. There isn't such a body for England. So get Pope Paisley and Jurry Udums to pull their fingers out, and all will be well.

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 03:57 AM

What part of ENGLISH Folk Dance and Song Society did you particularly not understand Capn.

eric

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 04:54 AM

He seems to have a bit of an efdss thing. Recent threads started.

e f d s s examinations - From: Captain Birdseye - Date: 29 Jul 06 - 07:03 PM
Subject: EFDSSROLE IN THE 21 CENTURY - From: Captain Birdseye -Date: 01 Aug 06 - 07:31 AM
Subject: what has e fdss done to promote traditio - From: Captain Birdseye - Date: 03 Aug 06 - 11:40 AM

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 05:29 AM

The EFDSS, was formed in 1932 when the Folk Song Society and the English Folk Dance Society were amalgamated. The "English" part of the name refers only to dance; the folk song side was never restricted to England or to the English language; nor is it now

The society has a web site EFDSS

What would be really good is people read it before posting erroneous information.

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 08:25 AM

so it seems as regards song. their remit does extend to other countries, about time they did something to promote song in england and all other english speaking countries that includes ireland and ulster.On further reflection TO fRED MCORMICK, ireland was under britsh / english ruletill 1922. so thereis a heavy    english influence of english in irelands culture just look at all the pattern dances[ haymakers jig, waves of tory , bridge of athlone] etc likewise there is aheavy influence of irish culture in english[we share alot of the same songs eg marrowbones] music, there is certainly a strong scottish influence in irish music Miss mcleods reel all the donegal highlands, and alotof ulsterand donegal fiddle playing is scottish influenced. there is no such thing as an ethnically pure musical culture.

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 08:49 AM

I didn't say there was anything ethnically pure about Irish music or song, or indeed any aspect of Irish culture. Quite the reverse in fact, as most people in Ireland nowadays would acknowledge. The point I was making was that if EFDSS were to assume some sort of responsibility for the musical traditions of Northern Ireland, purely on the basis of political boundaries, it would smack stand accused of cultural imperialism, and justifiably so.

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: stevethesqueeze
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 10:30 AM

I have always thought that the founders of the EFDSS were extremely wise and far sighted in retsricting their enterprise to England alone. Some of the founders, mentioning no names, were politically minded English nationalists who were trying very hard, some would even say depserately hard, to re engage the English with their own heritage which they believed had been lost in the creation of britain and britishness. They vigourously resisted the idea of a British FDSS. In a way the founders were going against a trend at that time to present these islands as british rather than welsh,english scots and irish. They could see how powerful music could be in supporting nationalism. For me its vital that the EFDSS takes no role other than observer for other traditions and concentrates on its own resposibilities whilst respecting others.

Just for interest heres the main welsh internet site for welsh dance. www.welshfolkdance.org.uk

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:00 PM

I have always thought that the founders of the EFDSS were extremely wise and far sighted in restricting their enterprise to England alone

Except they didn't. I did post to the history page of the society's webpage in the hopes people might read it. Don't let the facts spoil a good story.

Here is the relevant section:

No geographical limit was set to the Society's activities, and although the main interest were the folk songs of Britain and Ireland, the Journal of the Folk-Song Society published articles from other countries as well.

That was the Folk SONG society which was one of the two halves of the organisation which eventually amamlgamated and became the EFDSS.

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 08:05 AM

In reply to jon, I believe EFDSS need the publicity. I still am waitng for someone from efdss to show us all the events particuarly song wise they have instigated, there have been some good things, the work of malcolm douglas and the hallamshire projects, but is that all, the ball is in their court.Iwould be more interested in donating money and joining if they showed me what other positive things they have been doing. If nothing more is forth coming, Then that in itself is a statement.FOLKIE DAVES statement above is very important the song part of efdss is not just resricted to english song, will all previous contributors please take note.

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: Compton
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 01:24 PM

I recall Jim Lloyd (a long time ago now) had a vision of how the EFDSS could improve...the "danglehands" folk dancers didn't particularly like his visionary ways so Jim and the EFDSS parted company very quickly!. So now the EFDSS just continue to grow old and put their collective heads (like the ostrich is supposed to do) further and further into the sand. The problem is (with perhaps the exception that proves the rule) Singers don't much care for Dancers and Dancers don't care much for Singers...Perhaps the best idea would be to go back to the Song Society and the Dance society.

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 04:28 PM

Iam inclined to agree with you

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: sian, west wales
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 04:44 PM

The Welsh Folk Song Society was formed in 1906 because it was decided that Wales would have a separate society, instead of being a Welsh Branch of the English Society. Many of the early members were members of both and exchanged recordings and findings. It's interesting that England doesn't consider itself to have a restricted geographical base ... but it does, to all intents and purposes.

Wales also has separate societies for Dance, Cerdd Dant, Traditional Instruments, Hymnology, Oral Spoken Tradition, etc.

sian

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: Compton
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 08:16 PM

Sian...from what I can gather about the Welsh Folk (Dance) society, if it hadn't have been for a (Famous) pioneering member of the English FolkDance Society..namely patrick Shouldham-Shaw...there wouldn't be much of a welsh Folk dance society...but that was then and not now!...It looks to me as if the Welsh end of Folk membership looks as sahkey as the EFDSS

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 08:52 PM

The Folk-Song Society didn't place political, linguistic or geographical boundaries on its research (it published collections of songs in Scottish, Irish and Manx Gaelic, for one thing), as I've said; but the English Folk Dance Society had a narrower focus. The name of the combined organisation was the occasion of much debate when amalgamation was proposed back in the early 1930s; largely because EFDS was the larger partner, they got their way and "English" remained in the title, to confuse everybody and provide an excuse for misunderstandings, inadvertent or deliberate, ever since.

There is a regrettable tendency to demonise EFDSS or to credit it with more power and influence that it actually possesses, or to dismiss it as irrelevant; these attitudes are mutually contradictory and often the result of ignorance or prejudice.   

It is becoming increasingly difficult to decide to which of the three simultaneous and overlapping threads Dick has started that information should best be posted, and his confrontational stance and apparent inability to understand what he has already been told doesn't inspire much confidence that it will do any good. Nevertheless, I've spent time that ought to have been used in more useful work in an attempt at spelling out some of the background, and in answering some of his questions; though this was not the place to ask them, or to expect them to be answered. Here we go:

It isn't EFDSS's job to materialise magically whenever anybody asks a question in a public forum, whether in order to dispel misapprehensions or to spell out in fine detail what they are actually doing; nor is it their responsibility to justify themselves to people who can't be bothered to do a little basic research on their own behalf. The way to get that sort of information would be to contact them yourself. Contact details are freely available at the Society's website. Ask them.

I can offer some comments to place things, a little, in context, but obviously these are the opinions of a private individual, and do not reflect policy of EFDSS (of which I am just an ordinary member, and for whom I do not speak in any official capacity) or of any of the regional folk arts organisations to which I belong. They will be also be incomplete: EFDSS is doing plenty of things that I don't necessarily know about.

Equivalent Irish and Scottish organisations tend to find it a lot easier to get significant grant aid or even direct government funding; it is a fact of some regret that funding for the folk arts in England has always been inadequate. The function of any central organisation will change with time and with circumstances: in the 1950s and '60s, EFDSS was in a position to employ regional representatives like Peter Kennedy, Peter Dashwood and others to act as animateurs and get things moving. Nowadays similar functions are fulfilled, but by independent regional or local organisations. That is how things developed. EFDSS works with these organisations as and when appropriate, but certainly doesn't see its role as telling them what to do or how to do it; it is an enabling and advisory function, not a controlling one.

As Comhltas has grown into a well-funded state monolith, EFDSS has (in part due to financial restrictions, but also due to the way in which the Revival has developed in the UK) tended to concentrate on its enabling and advisory roles, providing central information resources, behind-the-scenes lobbying (the fact that you don't see it doesn't mean that it isn't happening) and that sort of thing. During the '70s and '80s, as some people will know, the tension that had always existed between the social dance side (who had been very influential during the "country dance" boom) and the song/music side developed into a damaging conflict which continued for some time and weakened the Society considerably. That is in the past now, but it was obviously a factor in the decision gradually to withdraw from the kind of direct "outreach" work that had been possible when "folk" of all sorts was fashionable and publicity easy to get.

For any voluntary organisation with limited resources and considerable responsibilities (the Library not least of these) it is best to concentrate on achievable goals and resist the temptation to over-reach. That is what the Society is doing. In recent years it has expanded its publication programme; on the song side, there have been new selections from Cecil Sharp's English and Appalachian collections (Still Growing and Dear Companion), and the revised and expanded Penguin Book of English Folk Song was issued as Classic English Folk Songs. Song books currently in preparation are a selection of songs from Mike Yates' recordings of Traveller singers (which will be accompanied by an audio cd) and a revised and expanded edition of Frank Purslow's Marrow Bones, originally published in 1965. Barry Callaghan is working on a selection of tunes for sessions and dances, and there is more in hand.

The Society also produces resources for social and ceremonial dance (including maypole, since you mention it) and various traditional customs; for which, see the website. At the more "serious" end, there's the yearly Journal, and books produced in partnership with other organisations such as Folk-Song: Tradition, Revival and Re-Creation (with the Elphinstone Institute), Room, Room, Ladies and Gentlemen: An Introduction to the English Mummers' Play (with the Folklore Society) and so on.

Publications need, in the main, to be self-financing. If one sells well, more will follow. Other things can only proceed if subsidy is forthcoming. An application for funding is currently in the early stages of preparation which, if successful, will enable the digitisation of several important manuscript collections of songs; these would then be made available via the Internet, and additionally used as educational resources in projects run in partnership with regional folk arts organisations and schools in the areas where they were originally collected in the early years of the 20th century, and where they are now almost entirely forgotten. The application may succeed, or it may fail. Perhaps you have experience of grant applications and project management, in which case you will know how labour-intensive such things are, and how much time they consume; and how disspiriting it can be when, after all that work, funding is denied. Many such plans have been prepared over the years; people only hear, as a rule, about the ones that are able to go ahead.

EFDSS is a voluntary organisation, as I've said, and must raise income to maintain its headquarters and the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library before it can splash out on other things. It has no income from the state beyond what can be got for individual projects; running costs are a constant worry, and there is a limit to what the small core of paid staff can be expected to do. A lot has to be done by volunteers, which can lead to inconsistency and a regular re-inventing of the wheel. Former members might be expected already to know this.

Personally I worry a bit about people who offer to do things before they have been asked. I became drawn into the things I do for the Society because they needed doing, and I was among those who were lobbying for them to be done. Hoist by my own petard. The way to get any organisation to do the sort of things you think it should be doing is not to criticize from outside, but to lobby from inside. That way, of course, you will have a better idea of what they are already doing, and of the practicalities involved. There is inevitably a good deal of inertia in any organisation run mainly by volunteers, particularly one which is (if we date it from the establishment of its component parts) more than a century old; but there are cycles in such things, and when the right time comes it is possible to make important moves, provided we accept that we will probably have to do a lot of the work ourselves.

If you want more information about EFDSS, you should be asking questions of the Society itself. Get it first-hand, rather than tortuously (and perhaps inaccurately; you don't seem to have understood some of the things you have already been told, for one thing) in a discussion here. Become a member, perhaps; offer help: you don't need to be living in England. It isn't about what EFDSS can do for its members, as far too many people seem to think; but about what members and non-members alike can do to help the Society do more of the things it needs to do; then we can move onto what we would like it to do; provided we accept part of the responsibility.

Have a think about that.

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: Compton
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 05:06 AM

Let's be honest, Malcolm...the EFDSS does not have too big a prescence outside London...and that is the big problem...and why the society membership gets older and smaller!
There also becomes a time when the membership thinks...Why pay all this money in to somethng that stands still...and to a degree like Buddah contineus to examine it's navel!!

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 05:28 AM

Speaking as a former teacher - I blame the teachers.

First of all - make sure people can read before they can write. Secondly once they have read something - make sure they read it again so that they have a modicum of understanding about what the writer has just said.

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 06:33 AM

Thankyou MALCOLM for your time, I am not confrontational. but trying to get EFDSS to let us know what they have been doing[ this is an ideal oppurtunityfor one of the paid staff of efdss to give themselve good publicity ], so far you have been the only person to reply. I appreciate your time and you have done some good for the society. Relating to jim carrols point about tds and mps, might i suggest an mp who might be sympathetic. Mr rosindell member of parliament for Romford, his brother used to play concertina, and danced for blackmore morris . he has a marginal seat, he might well need the votes of efdss members, I believe he was sympathetic       and helpful about the licensing act. its worth a try.I hope you pass this information on to the aproppriate quarters.

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: sian, west wales
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 08:53 AM

Compton, there is absolutely nothing in my post that would suggest that the Welsh Folk DANCE people do not give full credit to Pat Shaw, or any of the other excellent English people who did so much for our tradition. The fact that you make a sweeping statement that, "the Welsh end of Folk membership looks as sahkey as the EFDSS " does not make it so. Thank God.   To borrow from Malcolm, the "apparent inability to understand what he has already been told doesn't inspire much confidence that it will do any good" MAY also apply to you. I don't know. But I will make some points.

Many of these associations look sahkey, as you put it, because of inconsiderate folkies who use their resources and refuse to give the societies their due credit. I know of only a very very small number of folkies who have ever collected any of their songs/tunes/dances personally but I know a great many who have learned them from publications or recordings of these amateur associations ... but never once give them any credit.

In actual fact, I don't think the Welsh situation is currently sahkey. There's considerable renewed interest in instrumental music, there's a good crop of new recordings each year, there will be some reissues of classic song and tune collections this year, funding bodies are finally clicking to the potential of traditional music for community/economic/tourism development, local authorities are showing new interest in doing Welsh trad music residencies in schools and communities, etc.

But as I found in another thread, some people just won't be told and are determined to knock the work of those who are at least trying. In some threads, one wonders if it's a waste of time trying to make a fact-based argument.

And thank you Malcolm for a very cogent post.

sian

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 09:34 AM

When I was a lad growing up in london, I visited cecil sharp house frequently bought publications from them and later used the library, all of this I would like to thank them for. What I have attempted to do with this thread is to stimulate sensible discussion ON EFDSS and compare what COMHALTAS has acheived in the same period 1951 to 2007. my main criticism of efdss is that perhaps if they emulated or analyzed what comhaltas have done they might get strongerand they seem to treat folk song as secondary to dance.Iwould love to see efdss become stronger and to be able to encourage song more.

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 02:28 PM

Captain Birdseye,

The answer to all the criticisms you have just made are in Malcolm's post.

Comparing EFDSS to Comhaltas is to compare chalk and cheese.

Why not pick compare its work with the Smithsonian or the School of Scottish Studies?

The comparison(s) are ludicrous.

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 02:36 PM

thats your personal opinion, I beg to differ, if my comparisons are ludicrous, please prove it, I am still waitng to hear what efdss have done to instigate or promote english or international folk song. from the long silence it would seem nothing.

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 03:08 PM

The material below was in Malcolm's post.

Of course you could refer to this as silence or nothing. I reckon most people would regard this as "instigating or promoting" but of course that is simply, as you put it - an opinion.

I would call spending time and money putting the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library on line "instigating or promoting" - but of course that is simply, as you put it - an opinion.

Go to the resources section of the Society's website. I'd call the things there "instigating or promoting" but of course that is simply, as you put it - an opinion.

EFDSS has (in part due to financial restrictions, but also due to the way in which the Revival has developed in the UK) tended to concentrate on its enabling and advisory roles, providing central information resources, behind-the-scenes lobbying (the fact that you don't see it doesn't mean that it isn't happening) and that sort of thing.

In recent years it has expanded its publication programme; on the song side, there have been new selections from Cecil Sharp's English and Appalachian collections (Still Growing and Dear Companion), and the revised and expanded Penguin Book of English Folk Song was issued as Classic English Folk Songs. Song books currently in preparation are a selection of songs from Mike Yates' recordings of Traveller singers (which will be accompanied by an audio cd) and a revised and expanded edition of Frank Purslow's Marrow Bones, originally published in 1965. Barry Callaghan is working on a selection of tunes for sessions and dances, and there is more in hand.

The Society also produces resources for social and ceremonial dance (including maypole, since you mention it) and various traditional customs; for which, see the website. At the more "serious" end, there's the yearly Journal, and books produced in partnership with other organisations such as Folk-Song: Tradition, Revival and Re-Creation (with the Elphinstone Institute), Room, Room, Ladies and Gentlemen: An Introduction to the English Mummers' Play (with the Folklore Society) and so on.

But don't let the facts spoil a good argument.

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 03:35 PM

well I am sorry but I consider This pitifully little. yes there are the facts.and to me they are doing a bit but not very much, examination inititaves have been taken by comhaltas, newcastle and scotland, but not efdss, compared to the festivals that they used to be involved in their input into the folkscene both song and dance is dwindling. if you think otherwise you are living, in cloud cuckoo land.

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 03:55 PM

There are dozens of folk festivals nowadays.

It could be argued that that is a result of the EFDSS starting them off years ago. Sidmouth, and Whitby for example were both originally organised by the society. Are you seriously suggesting that the society should organise festivals? The words cloud,land and cuckoo come to mind, but not necessarily in that order.

As far as examinations are concerned - why not propose such a resolution to the membership? See how much support you have for the idea.

I am not sure of the relevance or the connection between Comhaltas, Newcastle and Scotland.

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: Compton
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 08:20 PM

Well, this thread certainly gets people going! I stand Full Square behind Captain Birdseye on this one.
I did my dues here in the midlands with the EFDSS serving on a district committee. Apart from designing a camel, I suppose all it did was hold the area together. So ask me what did the EFDSS do? Yes, scrap the district committee!
Same with what is supposedly the district rep. Goodness only knows who is the one for around here.
My point is that, yes, many good things were done perhaps twenty years ago, but perhaps now (from my perception) it now does "bugger all" apart from run a wonderful library…but all that is needed there is to preserve it for the nation!
Just what is the population of London? How many people in that area go to Cecil Sharp House functions?
As for tradition, perhaps the Folklore Society has done as much or even more. The people of Padstow, Abbots Bromley et. al. go their merry way without the EFDSS…and will continue to manage as well.
Folk Festivals are run very differently these days …and again with no EFDSS involvement …and they manage without them.
I (and I am sure the Captain) don't knock any society "just because we want to" I / We want to see a higher profile of the society, and not be "a minority sport" and I am sure there is some London "Bright Young Thing" who must know how to do it. Sadly my time, like the majority of EFDSS members, has passed but I see nothing at the moment that will rise "Phoenix like" from what is the society at the moment.

Sian, I admire your defence of the Welsh movement, but your idea of "Shakey" and mine are different. My observations (admittedly only of the Welsh Folk Dance Society) are that the WFDS membership has perilously small numbers. When was the website last amended?…and I (on a recent holiday in Caermarthen, popped into the local tourist office to enquire about things folkey i.e. Song, Dance or Twmpath. She hadn't the faintest idea what I was on about. "Shakey" or what?
Perhaps we should all look north at the Scottish Folk Dance Society and the profile that they enjoy. Run by a very small organisation, it appears to thrive.
And so should things here in England and in Wales!

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 09:12 PM

There is obviously no point in me wasting any more of my time providing people with information which they then ignore, apparently preferring to cling to personal prejudices based, not on what is happening now, but on what happened donkey's years ago. By all means nurse your ancient grudges instead of doing something constructive in the here and now. That would be traditional, I suppose.

For myself, I'm off to do some work on the Folk Music Journal website (EFDSS), followed by some work for the Sheffield Folk Festival. Somebody has to do the things that need doing while others just carp and whinge.

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: Compton
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 04:19 AM

Malcom, you miss the point every time...which symbolises the head in the sand attitude of the EFDSS. Yes, WHAT YOU DO is worthy, but the EFDSS continues to be just a insular body intrenched in good works that will not attraingle member...(well, perhaps people lioke you) I had twenty years of "not what the society can do for you, what you can do for the society"...and stopping with Jim Lloyd, direction from the top of the society, appears to remains in wonderful isolation in a room at the top of CSH. The sooner the society gets out into this great island and get a grip, we amy see a result!.Are you going away to do other things because, apart from what you do, the EFDSS is indefensible.

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: sian, west wales
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 05:40 AM

Compton, I'm an 'ordinary' member of the Welsh Folk Dance Society but don't attend meetings nor am I a member of a dance team, so I don't know off-hand what the membership currently stands at. However, I know that there are 21 or 22 teams which are members, and a number of those have teams-within-teams. Many team members are also individual members. I don't believe that school teams are required to pay membership, but they do receive advantages from the Society. Add to that the teams and dancers who aren't members but benefit from the publications, courses, etc that the Society produces and I think they're providing a good service, particularly for a voluntary society. From a presentation I attended at an AFO conference a while back, I get the impression that there's more folk dance in Welsh schools than in English schools. Unfortunately (from my point of view) it's all focussed on competition, but that's another question altogether.

I'm sorry, I must have missed your request on Mudcat for info re: folk activity in west Wales. There's usually something going on here and there, but it is 'folk' activity - i.e. something we do locally, and not necessarily as cannon-fodder for the tourist industry. As it happens, however, I'm on the Wales Cultural Tourism Partnership and I have been pushing for better awareness of those folk events which ARE open to the public. There have been folk festivals within driving distance of Carmarthen on many (most?) weekends this summer, some of which should have been known to the TIC. I'll take that up with the Carmarthenshire Tourism Association. However, I know of one major festival which receives marketing grants and consistently fails to promote itself beyond a 10 mile radius of its site; so, the folkie organizers are the ones to blame there.

Re: Scotland, they benefit from the strong support of the Scottish Executive, as well as regional bodies such as Highlands and Islands Enterprises. Interestingly, recent visits by Ian Smith (Scottish Arts Council) to Wales have helped raise the profile of Welsh traditional music in 'certain quarters' for which I personally am very appreciative. We may see progress ...

I continue to thanks God for the Societies which have preserved and published all the material which too many people ignore. And whose role in making it available to us is undervalued by too many.

Like Malcolm, I shall hie myself hence because I have more constructive things to be getting on with: i.e. a project reintroducing archive material in Pembrokeshire, a trad-based commissioned work for Rhuthun Gaol, a cataloguing project of songs of SE Wales, plans for a Winter Rituals project for Carmarthenshire, sessions this week at the National Eisteddfod, a trad music response to a National Assembly Arts Review, and ... oh, a few other things.

For a nation of a shade less than 3 million, over 20,000 km squared, without the governmental support available in Ireland and Scotland, we could be doing worse.

sian

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: Compton
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 07:37 AM

Yopu work hard then, Sian !

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: Compton
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 07:41 AM

Though my grouse really wasn't with the WFDS...but an exasperation that something I was heavily involved with, twenty plus years ago has gone (out in the sticks at least) into relative obscurity. And itit may be something to do with the insular view odf a membership that has an average age of over 60!
Hwyl! (or however it's spelt)

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 05:18 AM

I used to be a member of efdss.I reckon that all the singers professional semi and amateur, who have supported clubs and festivals without the support of efdss[ iwas involved in running three of them]have done more to promote english and other folk song than the society . the unsung heroes have been all those professional singers who have toured folk festivals and clubs for ahard living with no support from efdss, they are the ones who have kept the song tradition alive.along with the folk club and festival organisers. efdss withdrew from festivals 25 years ago. efdss contribution has been small. but lets put their work into proportion. the folk song scene continues with out them ,but it could be stronger if efdss contribution was bigger.Iwould like to thank malcolm douglas and the few others in efdss who are working on song.

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 05:42 AM

If the EFDSS were to subsidise artists and festivals as you suggest, where do you suggest the money comes from?

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: Mo the caller
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 05:50 AM

I left EFDSS when they were tearing themselves apart over Cecil Sharp House. Then joined again when I started doing paid calling gigs because they provide insurance cover.
There was a blip a few years ago when they could not provide adequate cover and didn't tell us for about 4 months but that is sorted now. I imagine that if enough people had had big claims against them the Society would have been liable and in financial trouble, but we got away with it.

There was some suggestion (was it by Douglas Kennedy?) that EFDSS's work was done after it had got the folk revival going, it should shut down and let things carry on under their own steam.

Things seem to happen in places that have a strong regional identity e.g. Folkworks in the N.E. (Is this more reaction to imperialism of the London English?)

Random thoughts, no conclusions from me.

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 06:07 AM

the money should come from the membership , and those people who attend the festival.once a year on st georges day they could sponsor a one day festival at cecil sharp house. they have sponsored festivals in the past. or they could like other festivals such as Lancaster maritime festival, go for private sponsorship. there is a saint georges society that could be approached and if they were to give andrew rosindell some support, [ who has been campaigning for folk dancing and music on a public holiday, st georges day] they might be able to get government or alternatively a special st georges day funding . a one day festival would be cheaper to run and would bring people into cecil sharp house, Where did efdss get the money from before when they ran sidmouth and whitby[a week festival] and chippenham for many years, it was done before why cant it be done again, analyze what they did before and then think about private sponsorship.

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 06:17 AM

the money should come from the membership

Since you are not a member you mean from other people.

Where did efdss get the money from before when they ran sidmouth and whitby

A more relevant question might be "Why did they pull out?"

Clearly you have never sought private sponsorship for folk music. Try it and let me know how you get on.

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 06:50 AM

I thought EFDSS had had a St Georges Day festival this year.

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 08:02 AM

Ihave already named one festival. lancaster maritme festival that have in the past used private sponsorship. EFDSS managed to run festivals successfully for many many years, [ it isnot relevant why they pulled out]how did they manage to do it before.well I performed several times at Sidmouth Whitby Chippenham when it was run by efdss and was prepared to do so for less money because it was the society[because i felt i was putting something back even if the society was dance orientated] so it was the good will of the musicians to some extent.I was not prepared to do this when they became privately run.I would be prepared to come over from Ireland[ if there is a st georges day festival run by EFDSS]for my travelling expenses. But not for a privately run festival. that is the best i can do for the efdss[work for nothingfor a day] in fact for several years I worked for nothingat whitbyand sidmouth , finding my own accomodation ETC FOR A WHOLE WEEK.To Manitas I am glad there was a festival at cecil sharp house, were efdss running it/, OR SOMEBODY ELSE.Finally comhaltas do use private sponsorship if only for their fleadh programme, its called selling advertising .if efdss do want to book me for saint georges day 2007 they had better be quick as my diary is filling upand the way to get cheap flights is to book early.

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 08:30 AM

Dick, I remember you from many years back appearing in London folk clubs and several festivals. I always found you very entertaining. That said, why on earth would EFDSS want to book you after criticising them so much?

Subject: RE: what has e fdss done to promote traditio
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 09:52 AM

Well I hoped it was constructive criticism, I have also given them a lot of publicity[ theres no such thing as bad publicity]in my opinion. And a chance to show us what they have done. , and the work they have been doing with out of print revisions etc, how many people knew of their hallamshire instigations, which are very good.I only offered, it might be good business for them, but of course i will understand if they dont want to. you very rarely get thanked for trying to help and give them......EFDSS a higher profile.