Black people at folk clubs

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 07:51 AM

I don't think it is the ordinary people like most of those here that do, Guest. It is the people that make the rules, give the grants and are generaly far too 'PC' for their own good! I wouldn't have dreamt for one instance that colour or race were an issue at Folk Festivals until I applied for a grant. It was only when asked what we were doing for the local ethnic communities, with emphasis on Afro-Carribean and Asian, I realised that some people still see a divide:-( Shouldn't have surprised me too much. After all people still see a divide between different kinds of folk music! (See the Celtic/English thread for prome examples)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 07:29 AM

I always find it hard to believe, in this age of supposed awareness, that people still see "in colour"!

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Betsy
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 07:12 AM

A British Folk Club is a bit like an old fashioned British Fish and Chip shop. You either like what they have to offer or you don't .It's an acquired taste which not all British like - and overseas visitors are astounded by our love of this highly rated but fatty dish, which, could account for the arrival of all the various other ethnic foods which have arrived in the last 20 years or so.
In Geordie Peorgies message - Sam Satyanadhan has obviously acquired the taste for fish and chips - bless 'im, , and (this analogy is getting too deep for me) many Brits have acquired e.g. the taste for Tex-Mex food (Country or Country and Western music) etc. etc.
It's a fair thread , but some conclusions are getting into the too politically correct area, which I hope, was not the point of the question.
On a final note, going back to some remarks earlier about Johnny Silvo. I believe he is one of the most intelligent, articulate, knowledgeable,well-travelled and decent people who you would ever wish to meet, of any race/creed ,with more friends in the British folk scene than most.I agree with John "Giok" McKenzie's remarks that regarding self-denigration the colour of his skin doesn't sound like Johnny.There may be some detail missing from the original account, perhaps it was more subtle than the listener imagined.
Anyway .......
Cheers,
Betsy.

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 06:49 AM

How I hate that word "inappropriate"!

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 06:04 AM

"But I wish more would be done to familiarize children, youth, and adults with their own musical and other cultural traditions. I also wish that more could be done to familiarize children, youth, and audlts with the music and other cultural traditions of other people in their nation and around the world.

Maybe if we knew more about how others make music, sing, dance, and live, move, and have their being, we would realize that groups of people within our nation and throughout the world actually have more similarities than differences."

No truer words ever spoken, Azizi!

One of the things that most infuriates me is the fact that English schools do not find the time to teach our children about their heritage and tradition.

When I was a kid we had lessons devoted to traditional music and dance, and once a year the London schools would put on an event at the Albert Hall (the most prestigious concert venue in the country).

The "London Schools Folk & Country dance festival" consisted of the best performers from all the schools in London. I played a violin solo there myself at the age of ten.

All of this has, sadly, disappeared, largely due to successive governments' disinterest.

At the school where I worked for the last fifteen years, I used to do regular gigs for the kids, usually on the last day of the term, and the kids loved it, often asking for me rather than watching a film on video.

So I offered to run a regular extra curricular club, and had a list of about thirty children who wanted to join, twelve of them Black or Asian.

I was told that it would be inappropriate for the caretaker to do this, unless a teacher could be found to sit in on sessions, in spite of the fact that it would be taking place at a time when most of the staff were still on site.

None of the teachers were interested, including the one who taught music and ran the school choir, so it never happened.

How do you fight that level of apathy?

Don T.

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Bert
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 02:36 AM

There is a great difference between England and the USA. When slavery was abolished in England, the whole black population was absorbed into the population and had almost completely disappeared in about three generations.

Black folks now in England are fairly modern implants from the remnants of the colonies. So they, like any other immigrants, have not yet had time to assimilate into English culture.

Now in the USA it is different. Black people here are still, after all these years, treated as second class citizens and would most likely feel unwelcome attending a "white folks" event.

Azizi, you say "I think ... that American bars ... don't have live artists performing" I don't think that that is quite true, Our own Lonesome EJ performs in bars, and I have a good friend who has a blues band, who performs in Colorado Springs (he is black by the way but that is irrelevant)

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:30 PM

http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/appalach.htm

Re: this excerpt "The slaves brought a distinct tradition of group singing of community songs of work and worship, usually lined out by one person with a call and response action from a group. A joyous celebration of life and free sexuality was coupled with improvisation as lyrics were constantly updated and changed to keep up the groups' interest"

-snip-

I'm really don't like that second line..."free sexuality??!!"- what??!!!

Okay. Maybe the author meant that Africans didn't have repressed Puritanical attitudes about their bodies and about sex. But given the fact that many enslaved people were forced to have sex to increase and multiple [more babies died than lived and new slaves meant more money; plus there was little enslaved people could do to protect their women from masters or other White men who wanted them as sex partners] It seems to me that this author should have come up with a better way of phrasing what she was trying to say.

That criticism aside, I think it's a good article.

Thanks for finding it, Peace.

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 10:39 PM

http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/appalach.htm

Google the first line in quotation marks and there ya go.

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:11 PM

Well, that's an interesting passage Peace posted there - but it'd be more interesting with an indication of where it comes from.

One of the bad things that happens to people in the modern world is the way they get brought up cut off from the past, and from the culture of their predecessors, and from knowledge of the predecessors of other people around them. That is something that has probably particularly affected people from the Black diaspora in the USA and the Caribbean, but it is also something that has happened to white English people. (In fact in England today it is the English traditions that tend to get the least attention and respect.)

One of the ways in which folk music and people who are passionate about it differ from society as a whole is the way we stand out against that, even going to the other extreme. We can be even too preoccupied with history, as a kind of reaction.

"Folk" isn't just about music, it's about knowing where we come from, and where other people come from, and that's every bit as important for people of all ethnic groups. There is some sense when people try tom relace the term "folk" with "roots".

The great thing about people, though, is that even when we are cut off from our roots, we are capable of reinventing a musical culture which we make for ourselves. And that is something that has been especially characteristic of people in the Black diaspora, as Azizi has emphasised.

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:16 PM

Ye'z want te come doon te Woolston, near Southampton - We've gorra canny little folk club there which is co-run by Sam Satyanadhan - An Indian

Not only that but 'e's the editor of 'Folk On Tap' magazine, Treasurer of the Southern Counties Folk Federation (SCoFF), and, I believe, a past chair of said federation. He also co-organises the Solent Song & Ale festival which always has a variety of 'world' music' if it can be found in and aroond Hampshire

Admittedly we divvent get many other people of Sam's ethnicity into the club and Southampton has large Asian, Afro-Caribbean and Chinese populations - That dizzen't mean that the' wadn't be welcome - Just the opposite

Aah like aall types of music (some mair than others - and AALL in small doses) but aah draw the line at waalkin' doon the street and havin' me lugs assaulted by some pillock in a BMW playing Banghra at 600dB

Woolston & Bursledon Folk Club HAVE had visitors from Norway, Sweden, Russia, Bulgaria, Egypt, Australia, Japan and a couple of South American countries (Brazil and Argentina, aah think) who have 'floor-spotted at the club - Though aah cannit remember any of them coming back - It's a bit of a trek ye knaah!

Sam's Missus (and co-organiser of the club)is Sandy! She used te be a copper (but we've aall forgiven her for that) and she has been involved with the folk scene in Hampshire for 30-odd years - AND... They met at a local folk festival

G-P

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 05:54 PM

"ONE of the greatest influences on Appalachian music, as well as many popular American music styles, was that of the African-American. The slaves brought a distinct tradition of group singing of community songs of work and worship, usually lined out by one person with a call and response action from a group. A joyous celebration of life and free sexuality was coupled with improvisation as lyrics were constantly updated and changed to keep up the groups' interest. The percussion of the African music began to change the rhythms of Appalachian singing and dancing. The introduction of the banjo to the Southern Mountains after the Civil War in the 1860s further hastened this process. Originally from Arabia, and brought to western Africa by the spread of Islam, the banjo then ended up in America. Mostly denigrated as a 'slave instrument' until the popularity of the Minstrel Show, starting in the 1840s, the banjo syncopation or 'bom-diddle-diddy' produced a different clog-dance and song rhythm by the turn of the century.

Many of the African-American spirituals were discovered by mainstream America, particularly with the collection Slave Songs from the Southern United States published in 1867 and popularized by a small choir of black students from Fisk University in Nashville. With emancipation, black music began to move outside the South. By the 1920s a whole body of parlour songs known as 'race music' became popular. Many Appalachian songs sung today that allude to 'children' in the fields or 'mother' have been changed from 'pickaninnies' or 'Mammys'.

Religious music, including white Country gospel, was probably the most prevalent music heard in Appalachia. During the Colonial period the press was controlled by a clergy which had no interest in the spread of secular music, therefore, not much of the latter survived in written form. There were three types of religious music: ballads, hymns, and revival spiritual songs. The latter directly arose out of the call and response of the African song tradition. These were popularized among the white inhabitants after the revival circuit started in Kentucky in 1800. Their simpler, repetitious text of verse and refrain was easier to sing and learn and produced an emotional fervor in the congregation. Shape-note and revivalist gospel still flourished in the southern mountains after being eliminated in northern churches by the new 'scientific' music led by Lowell Mason and Thomas Hastings.

There were other ethnic pockets in the southern mountains - mostly Czech, German, and Polish - but their music, as well as other cultural aspects, was generally assimilated in an effort to become more 'Americanized'. Still, many songs and tunes - for example, Fischer's Hornpipe - were of German ancestry and became anglicized over time.

The instrumental tradition of the Appalachians started as anglo-celtic dance tunes and eventually was reshaped by local needs, African rhythms, and changes in instrumentation. The fiddle was at first the main instrument, often alone, as a piano would have been too expensive to purchase. Originally the tonal and stylistic qualities of the fiddle mirrored those of the ballad. The 'reel' is generally thought to have developed in the Scottish highlands in the mid-eighteenth century. In the 1740s, Neil Gow, a Scottish fiddler, is credited with developing the powerful and rhythmic short bow sawstroke technique that eventually became the foundation of Appalachian mountain fiddling. More modern repertoires took shape in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries, with the waltz showing up at the beginning of the 1800s. Square dances slowly developed out of mostly a middle or upper class dance tradition, based upon the cotillion; black cakewalks were a burlesque of formal white dancing; and the Virginia Reel was a variation of an upper class dance called Sir Roger de Coverly.

Irish immigration also added its own flavor. The sound of the pipes and their drones added a double-stop approach where two strings are usually played together. Popular music - such as ragtime - at the turn of the century started the rocking of the bow, another distinctive Appalachian feature. Players began to use tunings different from the standard classical - sometimes one for each tune - to heighten the 'high lonesome' sound. Many tunes acquired words, so the caller could take over and give the fiddler a break by singing the calls. Dances changed: American squares and promenades featured a change of partners more often than their British counterparts, as it was often a couple's only chance to meet in such isolated communities. It also kept down the fights although, by the 1930s, liquor and fighting had ended most southern mountain dances. "

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 05:49 PM

When my sister was teaching music in elementary school, she focussed on a different country each year to present a program on its culture and music. It was a lot of fun helping her find traditional music to present and the kids and their parents really nejoyed it and learned from it.

LH, you said, "What in the world would cause a contemporary North American black person who grew up in the 80's or 90's to gravitate toward folk music? Nothing I can think of..."

My grandsons, who are half and half (their parents call them their "zebra children") really like the old cowboy songs, knowing their great-granddad was a cowboy and that there were not only white cowboys but also plenty of black ones, too. They were born at the late end of the 90's. Also, I would think folks who may be descended from the Buffalo Soldiers might be interested in trad., too.

kat

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 05:26 PM

Not that it matters a hill of beans what I think, but it seems to me that private music clubs have the right to "focus" on whichever musical genres they want to.

Also, while I don't think that any musical genre is inherently better than any other, I do believe that from childhood on, individuals are socialized within their racial & ethnic group to prefer certain musical tempos, structures, & sounds.

I count myself among those who believe that it is fine for individuals within specific ethnic groups and ethnic groups themselves to have different musical preferences.

But I wish more would be done to familiarize children, youth, and adults with their own musical and other cultural traditions. I also wish that more could be done to familiarize children, youth, and audlts with the music and other cultural traditions of other people in their nation and around the world.

Maybe if we knew more about how others make music, sing, dance, and live, move, and have their being, we would realize that groups of people within our nation and throughout the world actually have more similarities than differences.

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 03:02 PM

Stu,

You are correct.

Admittedly, Sharp's interested were very focused rather than broad.

He collected only those items which he considered worthy of collection.

Conversely, items which he did not attempt to collect were obviously those he considered unworthy.

Now, Sharp's personal preferences are not a problem.

Nor are the value judgments behind his choices, which he freely expresses.

However, there might be a problem when those values and judgments influence others.

If the English "folk" movement took its cue from Sharp and looked at folk music in a narrow and exclusionary way, that might not have been the best thing that could have happened.

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 02:41 PM

I think there is a lot of truth in what you say, GregB. Trouble is because black people do not want to become involved in folk music we often find ourselves labled as, at best exclusive' or, at worst racist. I have repeated over and again on many threads that I would love to get the local black and Asian community involved. I really have tried my damndest but no-one will ever take me up on it. The best I ever achieved was getting a story teller from Ghana at our festival. He cost is more than th eceilidh band did and while he attracted an audience of a dozen or so, all white and English I may add, the ceilidh was attended by 100 people from all corners of our little world!

I find these threads both divisive and unproductive. Like I said before people like different things. There is nothing wrong with not liking Sca and Rap. There is nothing wrong with not liking Folk music. Give us another 100 years in the global mix and we will all be coffee coloured; like Morris men (and Women) dancing to the Bangra beat and finish off the evening with soul food in a traditional Irish Reggae club.

Until such a time lets leave it as one mans meat is another mans poison eh?

:D (tG)

PS - One thing I would disagree on Greg. Sam Cooke was definitely the best:-)

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 02:27 PM

Most generalisations contain some sense, but it's always imporant to remmember they are very much approximations to the truth. Forget that and the sense turns into nonsense pretty rapidly.

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Greg B
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 02:07 PM

At least here in America, it seems to me that African American
people don't need constructs such as 'folk music clubs' to find
musical genres which appeal to them on a direct an visceral level.

Whereas we palefaces have had to give CPR to the notion of
self-made music, that very important part of civilized culture
is and has always remained alive and well in the African-American
culture. Even the commercial music (i.e., 'gangsta' rap, and
hip-hop) sources its artists mostly from the community itself,
and those artists' lyrics come right out of their own experiences.

From the time they hit the beach, these folks have been making and
re-inventing their own music. Whether it's the Americanization of
the 'banjar' to the discovery of how 'samples' on a cheap Casio
keyboard or the 'scratching' of an old phonograph record can become
a rhythm track or a central 'riff,' they've never stopped inventing
both instrumentally, lyrically, and in a genre (which they probably
invented as well!).

Black folks don't need to be looking back to some pre-industrial
angst to find relevant music. Nor do many of them seem to care to, beyond certain stand-out educators who occasionally get paid to come
'slum' with the rest of us. They've got a living, breathing, healthy,
musical 'tradition' which lives right in the here-and-now. In
fact I'd assert that it's MORE healthy than it was in the days of
over-studioed and over-orchestrated Motown Records. Marvin Gaye
me 'sound prettier' than Snoop, but Snoop is more true...more like,
dare I say it, 'folk.'

I think, too, that there are cultural differences as to where
upwardly-mobile middle-classers gravitate. Among Anglo-Saxons
it seems to be classical or in a few cases folk or jazz. (You
know, when music actually becomes a bit of a status symbol,
or a sort of indulgence?). In the African-American culture,
the 'approved' music for the upwardly mobile (particularly
male) middle-class seems to be classic jazz. Coltrane and
Parker seem to be the heroes there. That's what the role-
models say you're supposed to listen to.

In other words, I think the divide is real, not imaginary.
Where you can point to the 'exceptions' they are just that...
exceptions.

It's not so much a question of not being comfortable, or wanted.

Black folk pretty much just don't need the run-of-the mill
folkie crowd. We're just...irrelevant.

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 01:44 PM

You pretty much covered it in your first post, Azizi. Why would black people be drawn to folk music when almost nothing in their contemporary experience (which is based on the commercial media mainstream) would point them there?

When we white folkies were youngsters in the late 50's and early 60's, folk WAS mainstream...but that was a situation that only lasted about 10 years at most. Folk was soon displaced by folk-rock, rock, pop rock, acid-rock, progressive rock, glam-rock, disco, punk rock, new wave, techno, new country, and so on, and so on, and lately we see the rise of rap and hiphop music as well. All the most recent popular styles seem to be characterized by a huge amount of pounding bass and rythm section...(which I happen to just detest!). You want to totally ruin a piece of music? Triple the amount of bass in it. That's my opinion. ;-) Ah well, I'm just not in touch with the modern sound...

What in the world would cause a contemporary North American black person who grew up in the 80's or 90's to gravitate toward folk music? Nothing I can think of...

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 01:34 PM

We get plenty of blues in the mix, Graham. One of the best blues and jazz players I know is a regular here. We also regularly get songs in Yiddish, Marriot Edgar monologues, country music and reggae! I must say though that it must be a good 50% or so traditional English and American with 25% contemporary and the remainder comprising of all the others I mention. I am also in the process of trying to do a quarterly 'special' for the club with bands we would not normaly be able to get on due to pressure from our 'regular' guests. The first is, I hope, The Boat Band, if Greg gets in touch soon:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 01:27 PM

in our folk club/society, we have booked many black folk groups and individuals for 30+ years. They are usually popular and well-attended...except BY African-Americans. (If a group is local, friends & relatives of the performers will often attend, but seldom any serious number)...Perhaps it is just that the forms of music we feature are what WE consider roots/folk...*shrug*. Blues always gets a good audience, but blues seems to be a pretty small, narrow part of black music these days, and sometimes I feel like we are just tapping a good, but dwindling supply of what used to be a major,vibrant part of black culture.

Gospel is more common, but why should blacks come to a 'mostly' white club and pay to hear what they hear in church 2-3 times a week? At festivals, it is better, as walk in audiences have a larger 'mixed' ethnic attendance.

Groups like the Georgia Sea Island Singers or the Menhaden Fishermen are VERY well received, but in this area, few blacks seem to know who they are.

I have 14 different theories as to why blacks don't 'usually' attend basic folk groups, but it seems to boil down to "not interested" or "don't feel welcome"

I have seen some delightful exceptions, but they are the more noticeable for BEING exceptions.

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 01:26 PM

Songs like the Banana Boat Song and Sloop John B may have Afro roots, but if you think that most people equate them with African-American or Afro-Carib traditions you are wrong.   Through the "folk process", these songs have lost their roots and moved from folk to pop music.

Azizi made some very interesting points in her first post that I agree with. I would take it a step further. The image of "folk music" as the Peter, Paul & Mary type of music is prevelant among anyone who knows nothing about the music.

Why do young people stay away? Perhaps they were dragged to a folk festival and have images of aging hippies in faded tie-dyed shirts shaking beer bellies and stringy long hair to off key banjo pickers. The music that the mainstream considers "folk" is aging white singer-songwriters.

I book a local folk music club, the Hurdy-Gurdy, in Paramus, NJ.   We've presented some of the artists who were mentioned previously in this thread as well as other "black" artist who are popular in the folk scene - artists as Sparky & Rhonda Rucker, Kim & Reggie Harris, Vance Gilbert, etc. Having an African American performer does not mean that an African American audience will attend the show. Nor will it mean that young people, elderly, Asian, Polish, Russian, Gay, Left Wing, Right Wing or chicken wing audiences will show up. People will show up because the music is good and they like it.

The saying goes you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. You can't plan a cultural revolution or a change in taste. All you can do is offer good music, keep an open door and welcome everyone who shows up.

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: GUEST,Grab
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 01:04 PM

Azizi, not just that they could sing English folk songs, but also that English folk singers could sing *their* songs. If you go to an English folk club, songs like the Banana Boat Song, Sloop John B and other Afro-Caribbean songs are quite likely to come up, sung by white people. That's what I'd call integration. But it's *folk* style. There's a big difference between that and ska/reggae/dub.

It was obviously tougher for the Asian community to integrate, because there's a quadruple barrier of language, colour, religion and culture. Afro-Caribbeans at least shared a language and religion. But it's well under way.

As for Dave's comment that their club focusses on English folk music - well that's perfectly valid, if that's the parameters of their club. I wouldn't go to hear the London Philharmonic and complain about the lack of sitar music, or go to a blues club and play Irish diddly-diddly on a tin whistle. I like more variety myself so I probably wouldn't go to Dave's club if there was somewhere that mixed in blues and other acoustic stuff, but that's my personal preference, and it doesn't invalidate Dave's greater love for English folk music.

As far as "white folk music" goes, I guess mostly "commercial folk" in the UK and US has been done by whites, although there's been enough blacks involved too that this isn't a complete whitewash. If black people like the music and want to play, then I don't think there's ever been an obstacle (with the possible exception of music industry dinosaurs).

Graham.

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 12:37 PM

Liking music from other cultures is always, I suspect, going to be a minority interest.

That is true enough - but for most English people (white or black) traditional music is "music from another culture". That includes most people who have learnt to enjoy it and who are carrying it on.

For very many people their first exposure to traditional music will in fact have been to music from "other cultures" than ethnic-English , such as the varieties of American, Irish and Caribbean music and dance.

That then can lead on to a curiosity about and an exploration of the music of our ancestoral group, wherever they may have come from - for some people that would mean ethnic English traditions, for other it might mean African or Indian music, or Klezmer or whatever.

Folk music is always balanced between reinventing itself in each generation, open to a variety of influences, and preserving and respecting the link with the roots, whatever those roots might be.

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: s&r
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 12:18 PM

My understanding is that Sharp was looking for English folk music that had been taken to America by the migrants, and because of the topography of the Appalachians had remained true to its origins.

This gives some info.

Stu

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:33 AM

Spot on, Ernest.

Perhaps we will discover some sort of gene in the future that means some people like concertinas and Morris dance while others like drum and bass. Neither of them are right or wrong but it is highly unlikely that they will be comfortable at each others events. Same with any music. The sooner people stop trying to pigeon hole everything and accept that different people have different tastes the better:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: GUEST,Bruce Baillie
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:32 AM

...Personally I see this thread as yet another attempt by the Politically Correct brigade to convince us all that there is racism where there isn't any! You would never catch me listening to Rap music, Bhangra, Ska, Reggae or quite a few other musical genres done by coloured people, not because I don't like coloured people I just don't like their music, I personally find it all a God awful noise! And for similar reasons I suspect that is why you don't see many Black people in folk clubs, they have their own music for Christs sake and probably find the idea of nipping off to see a bunch of bearded freaks thumping around on banjos and accordeons playing didDley-diddley music all evening as off putting as I find listening to Bob Marley. THEY JUST DON'T LIKE OUR MUSIC! IT IS O.K. TO NOT LIKE CERTAIN THINGS YOU KNOW!

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Ernest
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:22 AM

If non-caucasian folk hasn`t aquired a special term (like "Blues" or "Reggae" for instance) it is often labeled as "World music".

As for live music events (festivals or bars) this is predominantly latin-american and african, often combine with Jazz. Audiences are often mixed.

It is a different "scene" in my opinion - just like s o m e Bluegrassers don`t go to Folk events and vice versa.

This doesn`t mean that anybody going to an event of a different scene isn`t welcomed there.

Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:07 AM

Azizi

Ouch.

I have actual (now dead) relatives who appear in the history of my home state (not Virginia) for what I personally consider to be the wrong reasons.

Anyway,

Although I made it clear that my comment was about the States, I was hoping that contributors to the thread might enlighten me about similarities or dissimilarities with the folk "presentation/preservation/revival movement(s)" in the UK.

So far that hasn't happened.

So far, we've gotten the usual disclaimers that "I am not racist," "my club is not racist," "I/we like all kinds of music", etc.

Now, all I know about English Folk Music is what I read on mudcat.

But I do have Cecil Sharp's book, "English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachian Mountains".

I cannot recall any items collected from non-white Appalachian Americans.

I would be happy to be corrected on this.

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 08:56 AM

Greg - seeing as you are on here - I left a message on your voicemail the other day and I think I PM'd you - Did you get either? (Re Boat Band on Oct 6)

Dave.

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 08:46 AM

Hi Azizi - I am more than happy to have ANY music at all at the folk club I help run. What I do not want to see myself is for the club to become a blues or bangra or jazz or any other sort of club. In many years time when my childrens children are in the same position they will want to run the club along their own lines. To them the traditional music of England will incorporate all the influences that have been in play in the last 50 years.

At the moment however there is very little on offer to people such as myself who do actualy like traditional English folk music as it stands now. I do and will always help to accomodate other folk traditions from anywhere in the world. We have booked acts from Ireland, Scotland, the Ukraine, Holland, Ghana and even the USA before now:-) While I help run the club though and while there are people of a like mind attending the 'focus' (good word btw - Not PC at all!) will be what I like. If booking acts that the current majority enjoy is being in any way exclusive then please forgive me. But also please remember that there are clubs and venues within a 10 mile radius that cover every type of music imaginable. We are only a tiny part of the Manchester music scene and you need to see the whole picture.

In the words of my cousins daughter visiting from California. It's nice to see a place where white middle aged men can get together and enjoy themselves;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 08:14 AM

Dave the gnome, in your 20 Aug 06 - 04:17 PM post to this thread, you wrote that you are want the folk club that you run to continue to "lean heavily on English folk music." You wrote that "If someone wants to come and give us some Bangra music, no problem, but at the end of the day we are still a Folk club".
-snip-

And do I correctly understand your comment 21 Aug 06 - 07:21 AM that your definition of English folk music does not include the Bangra music or other "roots' music [performed by the 2nd and 3rd generation black and Asian [immigrant] population? Do you see it as a mark of these peoples assimilation that they play and sing "your" songs and music without any alteration?

Thank goodness, Mudcat's definition of folk music {as I have experienced it} is not that limited.

Maybe it's a cultural thing. See this excerpt from a quote from GUEST,Mike Miller in this Mudcat thread
Compare US/UK approach to 'festivals'

"I have played at festivals in U.K., Ireland, Israel and the USA and they are different, reflecting the cultural mores of the country. Americans are more into picking sessions than singing sessions. Our love affair with improvisation is evinced in the popularity of such forms as Blues, jazz, rock and bluegrass. Our European fascination with precision and tradition has been tempered with an Afrocentric response to rythmic variety and complexity."
-snip-

If Mudcat's definition of folk music were only music from White people from the UK, I may have read some threads and learned some interesting information about songs & customs, but I wouldn't have joined this forum and actively participated here. Though it's a whole nother subject, I think one reason why there are so few people of color posting on Mudcat is that people of color {from the UK, the Americas, Asia, Africa, the Caribbean and where ever} may think that Mudcat's definition of "folk music" is limited to "White" folk music. Maybe it was at one time. Maybe it mostly is now. But I don't think it needs to be so limited {perhaps "focused" might be the "politically correct" word, but I'm not interested in being but so politically correct here.

Which brings me to my final point before I ease down the road to work {and won't have access to the computer till this evening}.

With regards to Johnny Silvo {given the previously posted discussion on this thread}:

Johnny, I hardly know you. But I hope you are not playing to the crowd either by putting yourself down or by putting Black people down as a race. If so, no matter how wonderful your voice may or may not be, I have no respect for you.

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 08:03 AM

The "club" in "folk club" means "society" in England. Not like the club in night club, or working-man's club, which means a premises.
Folk clubs in England are just organisations that meet in rooms in pubs once a week or whatever.
   I have seen traditional black African music, and traditional Kurdish music, in English folk clubs recently, but only when I have made a positive effort to organise the visit (by persuading the club organisers that it would be a good idea to have some different coloured guests). In each case the reception was fantastic, but I really dont see this sort of thing catching on, alas. Liking music from other cultures is always, I suspect, going to be a minority interest. And, with black people in England, this means a minority of a minority, which will (as has been pointed out) become vanishingly smal in an audience of 20-50 people: which is what you get in a folk club.
   If the clubs want multi-cultural audiences, they need to book multi-cultural acts.

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:33 AM

Thanks for your explanations. As a result of the responses to my questions, I have a better sense of what folk clubs are like.

Here's a thread Why do folk clubs charge admission fees? that just started which mentions individuals being charged an admission fee into a folk club that covers their membership fee.

Given that comment, does the term "clubs" really mean that {many? most?} of these places where people gather actually are "clubs" {meaning "organizations" with members and guests and not bars/nightclubs?}

If so, then was I correct in guessing in my previous post that these clubs are mostly made up of 'regular' attendees {and these 'regulars' are members}?

And if this is so, are they public or private clubs? {"private" meaning anyone can come and join this club, even without invitation, or without knowing a member}

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: GUEST,Ian P
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:30 AM

John, making a joke against yourself is one thing. Lots of my friends do that. I do that. Making a joke against your own blackness by pandering to racism is another. Obviously, you know the man, so you can accept it or not. But I am just describing what happened.

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:23 AM

Sorry IanP but I can't believe that Johnny in any way denigrated black people, he has been known to make jokes against himself, but that's not the same thing.
I have known the man for about 40 years, and you description does not fit the man I know.
Giok

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:21 AM

There are plenty black and Asian people in our area of the UK, John (Salford, Lancs) but we have only ever had 1 black person to come and see the club, one who came regularly as a floor singer but no longer does and Johny Silvo. We have never had anyone, as far as I remember, from the Indian sub-continent.

Whereas most white people in the area, including me, will attend some local Jazz and Blues club, with a high proportion of black audience members, most black and Asian people I have spoken to would not even think of going to a folk club. Bear in mind that although I was born here my father was an immigrant from Poland after WW2.

I think it is probably a combination of lack of interest in English Folk music by recent immigrants and a desire to have their 'own roots' music by the 2nd and 3rd generation black and Asian population. Remember of course that the main flow of immigrantion only started here in the 1950's - and 50 years is not an awful long time for whole groups of people to both accept the new culture and to be accepted themselves.

Someone said earlier that whereas the white Europen immigrants were soon assimilated (my family for example) the obvious difference between them and people of a different colour did make it harder for immigrants from Africa, the West Indies and the Indian sub-continent. I have no doubt it will happen eventualy. Just give it time.

In the meanwhile if there are any black or Asian acts out there that are willing to come and give us a try on a singers night at Swinton, PLEASE come along. We would love to see you there:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: GUEST,Ian P
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:13 AM

Just discovered this thread, you've now gone past the point I want to make, but I'll make it anyway. I saw Johnny Silvo at a folk club 23 years ago with my then-wife, who is black. We were both acutely embarrassed at Silvo's between-song patter, making extremely racist remarks about himself and other black people a la Charlie Williams (whose era was really 10 years previous and by then thankfully outdated). This was not subtle irony, as we then perceived it, it was pandering to the assumed racism of the audience to make himself accepted. We were dismayed and disgusted. Because of this we didn't see him again, so I can't say whether he kept this in his act or whether he learned to accept his black self. My wife did experience some racism at folk clubs, but no more than anywhere else. Unfortunately, the most explicit racist comments we heard were from the mouth of Johnny Silvo, over-doing his wish to be accepted by denigrating himself.

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:13 AM

Dress code in a folk club? Hardly. Unless slightly scruffy is a dress code. I doubt if anyone could dress in a way that would make make for problems. Bare naked perhaps, but I'm not even sure about that - I once saw a team of Morris Dancers just dressed in strategically placed rubber balloons, though that was a a festival rather than a cluib..

Typically folk clubs will take place in a function room attached to a pub, though these are becoming increasingly hard to find. Pubs by definition are open to the public, that's what "public house" means. Sometimes they will lay down some kind of dress rules, like no muddy boots, or no caps with peaks, or keep your shirt on.

All kinds of drinks will be on sale in pubs, but mostly poeple drink beer, or soft drinks. Pubs have age limits, but that probably wouldn't apply to function rooms, I think.

And sometimes folk clubs operate away from pubs, for example one I know uses a church vestry, another a room in a British Legion (army veterans) club. In both cases there's a bar.

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Grab
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:04 AM

Wish I'd been there, McGrath, but I'm short on holidays this year. :-/

And I guess that's the point. If you've come along for folk music and someone does bhangra (or Tuvan throat singing, or African gumboot dancing, or whatever), then you're there already so you might as well stay for it, and you may well find that you enjoy it. But it's unlikely to be something you'll make a conscious effort to go out and track down. Maybe you would afterwards if you really enjoyed it, but beforehand there's just no way.

Same for folk clubs. How much experience are people from black or Asian backgrounds likely to have of that? I'd bet that as far as they know, "folk" involves fat white blokes dressing up in ribbons and waving hankies - and that's if they've ever *heard* of folk music. In fact, never mind the "black or Asian background" bit - most *white* Brits don't know any more about folk than that either.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 05:00 AM

Johnny does indeed live in Norway now, and has done for a few years, and I believe he's 67 now, but age does not wither him one whit, and he's still a top class act.
Many years ago there was a black guy called Hope Howard, who used to turn up at the Hammersmith Folk centre, in the days when Rod Hamilton used to run it. I believe he went to live and work in the midlands, Nottingham or thereabouts.
Apart from Idris our own Mudcat Morris dancer, I'm afraid we don't se enough black faces in the clubs.
I think there's a lot of truth in the statement about their being more urban in their choice of dwelling place. I live in a small village, and there is there is one black lady in the village, and her 2 kids, and those are the only non white faces for miles around.

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 04:03 AM

The lady running the folk club at the Y Theatre in Leicester makes a serious attempt to outreach to other racial groups in our community. And so does Nick ellis at the Loughborough club.

I expect its a class thing. In a generation or two, they will be up there in their fishermen's smocks, with their real ale tankards, saying, This is the ballad of tamm Linn and I only started learning at half an hour ago, so I hope you don't mind if I get it a bit wrong - just trying to remember the tune, does anybody else know it? how DOES it start now......?dum de dum dum...

And heres a slip jig - sorry if my fiddles out of tune but I've been on my gite in the Dordogne for three months and I didn't take it with me - well it was that or the golf clubs and there isn't room in a smart car......

they'll go down a storm.

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Ian
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 03:39 AM

I note that this year the Jaz catagory has been dropped from the MOBO awards. Was there ever a Folk catagory? If the singers/performers do not promote themselves in areas where the have previously been extensively represented with aclaimed performers. What chance is there for them to be reconised by MOBO in under represented areas.
Unless performers are reconised by a body such as MOBO the general public and/or minority groups will not notice music styles.

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: s&r
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 03:33 AM

Pub = Public House: a place that is licensed to sell alcoholic drinks to be consumed on the premises.

These places vary from scruffy places with a minimum of comfort and luxury to well appointed lounges where the floors are carpeted and the rooms have the feel of a living room.

Many pubs have both areas ('public bar = sparse furnishing for the working man; lounge bar = better appointed for the man and his wife dressed up for an evening out).

Folk clubs are probably mostly in pubs. They are often in a private room that charges a small admission fee towards running the club and booking artists.

The nature of the club varies tremendously depending on who runs it and the customers. Some clubs have regular and frequent booked artists; some rely more on Singers Nights. The number of folk clubs is quite small compared to its peak 30-40 years ago.

A personal observation - I find the most significant difference between a folk club/concert/performance/festival and any other type of music is the high proportion of people in the audience who are themselves players and singers.

The folk clubs which I attend in general are where British styles of music predominate. This is personal musical preference. Most of the people who attend have similar interests: most are white middle aged people. Most are tolerant intelligent unbiased and friendly - occasioally but not often this is not the case.

The number of Black and Asian people in the area that I live in is a small percentage (1.6% of the population) shown here as North Lancashire. Statistically, assuming a random attendance, a well attended club here with - say - 50 in the audience would have one black or brown face. Add into the equation musical preferences and even that number is unlikely.

Where I have seen Black and Asian people in the clubs, they have been treated no differently to anyone else (poor statistics though; I can only think of half a dozen or so)

Stu

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Betsy
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 03:02 AM

The majority of white people in Britain don't like English ,Irish and Scottish folk song and music. That's why we a minority genre but nevertheless I enjoy it.
I can easily understand why it does not appeal to Black people .
Equally I have no intention of spending any time listening to rap, reggae or other modernish stuff , and I have no desire to listen to say )Country and Western, but, give me Sam Cooke , Wilson Pickett, Nat King Cole ,or old Motown then I'll bet we have some common ground.
No worries , some things appeal , and some don't, and perhaps there's too much history in a British Folk night for some people black or white) to enjoy as an evenings " entertainment? " .
BTW I understand Johnny Silvo mentioned earlier,(who is black and has clearer diction than almost anyone I have ever met )is living in Stavanger - hardly a sun drenched tropical island , but THAT'S folk for ya. !!!
Cheers
Betsy.

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 02:25 AM

After reading Mudcat threads about the English scene, I think 'folk clubs' there might be closer to what I think in the USA would be a step above a neighbor bar. My sense of a neighborhood bar in the USA is a small, public establishment that sell liquor and sometimes cooked food. Most importantly, these neighborhood bars {as opposed to other bars} are most often frequented by 'regulars' who usually but not always live nearby. Some American neighborhood bars have a room or an area where you can play darts and games of pool. I get a sense that is the same in these English folk clubs. Am I close to describing English folk clubs?

As a result of my reading Mudcat threads that mention English folk clubs, I wrote that it seems to me that they are "a step above" American neighborhood bars in that these English folk clubs seem to me to be also like American nightclubs as [I think] that both have live, featured artists {vocalist{s}, musicians}. But usually if not always in the USA people have to pay to get into a nightclub to see a show and then also have to pay to buy their drinks, and any food if they want it. Is that the case with English folk clubs?

I think {but since I don't go to bars I'm not sure} that American bars {neighborhood or otherwise} don't have live artists performing. But I also get the sense [again, from reading Mudcat threads] that the atmosphere during these performances, and in these folk club themselves, may be more informal than what I believe the atmosphere is in many American nightclubs. I'm curious as to whether my sense about this is correct. Also, is there a dress code for persons who come to English folk clubs? Another way of asking this is do persons who frequent these clubs wear casual clothing or more dressy clothing? At one time, in the USA persons going to nightclubs "dressed up", but I think it depends on the nightclub now. In the USA, people dress more casually now for most events and even church than they used to. But the overarching sense that I get is that these are more informal establishments where alcoholic beverages {mostly beer?} is served and people who know each other along with occassional strangers gather to relax, socialize, and {perhaps?} share some live entertainment. Most nightclubs have a small area set aside for dancing [to dj selected recorded music]. os. I think that this is usually not the case at neighborhood bars.

And speaking of "case", I attended a predominately White college in an Eastern state of the USA. During that time, I attended a few {very few} parties that were given by White students from that college. One major difference between these parties and the Black parties I attended [besides the dances and the music and the more casual dress at the White parties] was that the alcoholic beverages of choice seemed to be beer. At the Black parties {or if they were larger, and more open to the public, they were [and I believe still are] called dances, there'd be much less beer, and more hard liquor. I'm wondering is beer the drink of choice at English folk clubs?

Also, I'm wondering do English folk clubs have an age restrictions {for instance, are people under a certain age not allowed entrance?}. Sometimes American nightclubs have under 21 nights. No alcoholic beverages are served at those nightclubs at that time. Is this the case with English folk clubs?

About a year or so ago a couple of my friends and I attended a peformance that Seamus Kennedy gave at what I would call a Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania neighborhood nightclub. But again, it was more like a neighborhood bar/nightclub as it seemed that many people there knew each other. I was struck with the fact that most people who were drinking alcohol {and that was most people there} drank beer. Now that I recall, we didn't have to pay to get into the club. I was sruck by the fact that Seamus' 'set' was so interactive. The audience sang along and some kept time by beating on table. It reminded me of a summer camp singalong. Partly I'm sure because Seamus is such a good performer, people there {including myself} had a good time. As I wrote about it in a Mudcat thread, I can't think of any comparable experience Black American adults have.

It just occurs to me to ask-is a 'pub' the same thing as a folk club in England? I don't think that "pub" is not a term African Americans use to describe our bars or nightclubs, ["our" meaning those in the neighborhoods we live in -segregated by race or more or less integrated}. However, the word 'pub' might be used by other Americans.

All of this to say, I'm wondering if my sense of English folk clubs is accurate. If English folk clubs are like I've gotten a sense of them [again only from reading some Mudcat threads], the small neighborhood bar/nightclub without an admittance fee fits, then I would say that-apart from the types of music featured there-which is a whole nother comment- it might not be surprising that Black people or other people of color who may not live in the same neigborhood where these folk clubs are, don't frequent them.

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 12:41 AM

As to Black people being in folk clubs.

Perhaps it's good to look at it this way.

You have a folk club in a town of say 100,000. On a given night what percent of the town's population goes to the club. Now, what percent of the town's population is Black? Now . . . .

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 12:31 AM

I'm in Alberta. Wot's a folk club?

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Brakn
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 08:15 PM

Hmmm

I think I'm going to take a Black friend of mine to a Folk Club tomorrow! I'll let you know what he thinks about it!

Re the name of the thread. Most people I know - young /old/ black/asian/english/irish wouldn't have a clue about what happens in Folk Clubs.

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 07:14 PM

One of the highlights of this week's Broadstairs Folk Week was a young Banghra band (well, "6-piece band fusing funky-bhangra-reggae-rock, with Asian influences combining with Western rock beats") Kissmet which went over a storm in the final show on Friday in the concert marquee, with a crowd, made up of people of all ages, going wild. I don't think there is any doubt that Banghra can go down well with all kinds of people, when they get to be present in a Bhangra gig.

"Lack of familiarity with the music form or the language" seemed competely irrelevant on Friday. (Have a listen down that link I gave.)

Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Grab
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 06:41 PM

Azizi, blacks in the US ended up in places around the country without any say in the matter. So wherever you go in the US, I guess you're likely to find a reasonable size black population.

In the UK, blacks and Asians *chose* to come over. And as immigrants do, they tended to congregate in cities, which was (and is) where the work is. There's precious few jobs available in rural areas for the people born there, never mind jobs going spare for immigrants, so there was never any reason for immigrants to move into those areas. They'd also tend to clump together like most immigrants, partly for community and partly because their lower incomes/savings/education forced them to live in the less pleasant areas of town. This is pretty much the story of any group of immigrants starting up in a new country, I guess - check the various Chinatowns, Greektowns or whatever.

Integration has meant this isn't as much the case as it was, and moving to where the jobs are means that well-educated black Britons are likely to live anywhere. But there are still inner-city areas of Britain which are 80-90% non-white (areas of London, Manchester, Leeds and Bradford) and areas which are almost exclusively white (mainly rural areas: Lincolnshire is less than 2% non-white, and Fylde, where I come from, isn't much higher).

As for Huey's original question: most likely it's either because they don't know the music or don't like it. Just because folk has absorbed elements of black music, it doesn't mean that black people are more likely to be into folk music.

You'll find plenty of white kids at hip-hop and R&B gigs these days - it's fashionable. But how's about something that isn't so fashionable? How many white *or* black kids would you find at a bhangra gig, for example? Consider the debt that bhangra owes to black hip-hop and rap, and to white rock, pop and electronica - but it's unlikely that blacks or whites would make it there, because the music form (and often language) is outside their cultural experience and tastes.

Graham.