Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 01:07 PM

I'm glad the difference of opinion (and in what constitutes a folk-club) has been resolved.

Like Jed, I perform in a lot of folk club/coffee-houses such as Godfrey Daniels in Bethlehem, PA, Caffé Lena in Saratoga Springs, NY, and Club Passim in Cambridge, MA.
I incur travel, lodging and meal expenses.

The building are owned or rented by the club; they all have very fine PA and lighting systems, usually with a soundman. These all cost money.

As do advertising, print or electronic.
They sell coffee, tea, juices and cookies/brownies, etc. Minimal if any profit on these.

I work for a guarantee versus a percentage of the door.
Usually the percentage is greater than the guarantee, so it's profitable for me.
The balance of the percentage goes to the club to help defray its expenses.

On more than one occasion, due to weather usually, there has been a tiny turnout for the show, and so I didn't make the percentage.
I also refused to accept the guarantee, and just asked for gas and food expenses.
And I did the same show for the four people who showed up that I would have done for a full house. (I'm a performer for God's sake, and they're an AUDIENCE!!)

I believe in becoming a member of each folk club I work in, so I pay my annual membership fee, generally in the $10- $20 range.

The club uses membership fees to pay their performers, and all the other concomitant expenses.

So if a folk club charges admission fees, it's because they have to to stay in business.
At least here in the U.S.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 01:33 PM

Well, I'LL react to it, Leadfingers....*G*

...a Folk Club with only ONE Schoolteacher??? Well, now I've head EVERYTHING...

*G*

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 02:31 PM

Thanks Paul ! In fact there probably were more than the one I definately knew was a teacher - He was the only one there with a beard !!

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 05:28 PM

I'm glad this got cleared up, cuz I was going to jump in on my Beef Brother's behalf. He is one of the most caring and giving performers out there today. His songwriting will long outlive him, and he has paid his road dues. Anyone that would construe his comments as pompous or arrogant, or his motives as being those of a mercenary are acting from a place of ignorance of the facts. Good man, Villan, for your apology. I am happy to see the misunderstanding cleared.

I have a similar take as my other good buddy, Seamus Kennedy. (BTW, Ciara says tell Uncle Seamus "Hi", and Jed, too) I also join the clubs I play. I also tell them that my band, or I, will do a fundraiser free once a year. After that, if they are tight, I do the same percentage against the guarantee that Seamus does.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 05:32 PM

"Why do folk clubs charge an entrance fee?"

Maybe to pay the rent, publicity, electricity, heating, cleaning, etc. Perhaps some make donations to charities or even give some money to the occasional performer. Sometimes I'd guess the people who run the club would like to eat and stuff like that.

Hell, we have people in Canada who bitch about paying school tax because they have no kids in school or road tax because they don't drive. But, as a society we do benefit from education and roads. Seems like a foolish question to me.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 06:53 PM

Some pertinent facts regarding folk clubs in my local area, specifically those which book regular, or occasional, guest artists.

Audiences depend on the size of the room, and pubs with large rooms tend to want payment. I have been quoted from £10 to £50 per night. This means that the majority of clubs operate in rooms with a capacity of 20 to 30 people.

Admission charges range from about £2.00 to £5.00, depending largely on how often guests are booked. The cost of 1 to 2 pints of beer dosn't seem excessive, I'd say, for an period of entertainment generally as long as, or longer than, a local cinema or theatre charging much, much more.

The last club I helped organise raised about £20 to £25 pounds per week on singers nights, and almost always took a considerable loss on guest nights. Over time we averaged a small profit, which was ploughed back into financing extra guest nights, or more expensive guests, and providing an occasional free night with food (Christmas Party, or Club Birthday Party.

We did negotiate fees with artists, but only where their fee was outside of our budget by an amount that they were willing to discount.

Decent local acts would usually accept £70 to £80.
Well known acts charged between £120 and £200, which was our upper limit.
A very few artists, who could have charged £250+, have asked for fees at the lower end (e.g. Martin Carthy, Les Barker).
Clive Gregson asked what our setup was, and immediately cut £50 off his fee, as did Mundy-Turner.

Do the math, and you will see that this is a tricky balancing act, that would tax the talent of the Great Wallendas.

I have never, in 47 years, met an organiser who fully covered his phone or mail expenses, and I can remember nights when it snowed, or rained heavily, when I have had to empty my wallet, and raid my wife's handbag to cover the agreed fee.

I am very proud of the fact that no artist has left any club of mine with one penny less than was agreed.

As someone said above, if I went motor racing it would cost me thousands to operate for a year, so if I occasionally take a bath on a gig c'est la vie. The rewards come from the music.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 02:57 AM

That's the great and wonderful thing about people like Les and Martin, they know how they got to where they are and they will drop their fees according to the location.


I've even seen a well known name fill in a spot where a booked performer hadn't shown up (death in the family so we weren't angry), and refuse payment for it... unlike another incident where a performer turned up late, started late, upset her audience before they'd even got in their seats, consequently finished late and demanded overtime. She was never booked there again.

LTS

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Gurney
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 04:26 AM

I never made money running a folk club, and I charged a small door-fee and raffled records, too.

I was also present when an internationally known performer got quite nasty when the organiser (not me) hadn't the money to pay his fee, which was quite modest. The money was borrowed and the night went well, but it seems to me that even the best clubs (for audiences, anyway) tend to work hand-to-mouth.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 05:02 AM

Neither of the clubs I was involved with worked that hand to mouth, Gurney but I suppose we were cautious. The financial "problem" I remember was the one of once in a while wanting to spend money because we had an excess.

On the other hand, as one can see from Don's figures on artist fees, it wouldn't have been difficult to have broke ourselves if we always set our sights on bigger names.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 05:54 AM

That was always the trick, guest, to max out the entertainment value without overreaching.

Considering that you have to book guests at least six months ahead (the big names sometimes even more), it is surprising how infrequently we got it wrong.

I really can't claim a triumph of business acumen in that context. I'd say it was just dumb luck, mostly, but all the more pleasing for that.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 02:59 AM

Interestingly, although Martin Carthy and Les Barker are well known for encouraging the grass-roots by in effect subsidising small non-profit clubs by lowering their fees, as far as I know Coope Boyes and Simpson, great though they are, would not drop, and on one occasion several years ago wanted no less than £300 to play even if they were passing on the way back from Germany on a wet Monday night with nothing else to do. It is of course quite a reasonable fee for them, but it was beyond the club in question.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: JennyO
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 05:05 AM

When I had Les at my club, we did have to guarantee him a reasonable size minimum, plus 75% of what we took over that, which on the face of it sounds like a big risk for a small club like ours, but I felt quite confident that we would do well. We've had him in Australia before, and his popularity is so massive that at the National Folk Festival (which was the reason he was here), it is very hard to get close enough to see him. I knew I would get a good crowd, and we were pretty much booked to capacity before the day.

Everyone got a good deal. He was paid well over his guaranteed minimum, those who came were able to see him at close quarters, in comfort, with a coffee and a snack, and chat to him and look at his books in the break, and we finished the day by taking him out to dinner. Would that all our concerts went this well!

It is a balancing act most of the time, picking performers that you think will draw a crowd but at the same time, not overextending ourselves. Session nights do help us to stay on top.

One thing I have found is that a big name doesn't guarantee a big audience - you have to try and anticipate the sort of performer who will appeal to your audience. Sydney folk club audiences seem to be very conservative. No matter how good a performer is, and no matter how well known they are in other parts of the world, if they aren't well known here, it's very hard to get our audiences to come and see them. For instance, I couldn't invite Jed Marum, because with the exception of Mudcatters, not too many Australians know him. I couldn't promise him the kind of money he wants.

We have some very good local performers, but because the Sydney scene is quite small, a lot of them are a little too well known, and the boredom factor comes in.

On the other hand, an Australian performer, Paul Hemphill, always draws an excellent crowd for several reasons - he has a unique act with a lot of humour, he is a very polished performer, he doesn't perform all that frequently and we want to catch him when we can, and most of all, he has built up a following - he does a lot of advertising and promotion himself, which does seem to make a huge difference. I have actually had him at our club twice, because I know it is going to be a successful night, and, largely because of his own efforts, he has been paid extremely well, more than anyone else except for Les Barker.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 05:06 AM

I'd say it was a very reasonable fee for them and suggest that they had dropped from their usual - it's got to be divided by two remember. After a foreign tour, to delay getting back home by another night, putting your feet up and having some home-cooked grub must be worth something.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 12:32 PM

Myself and DtG along with another person make an absolute fortune from Swinton Folk Club. That's why we all drive Beamers and Mercs and own holiday homes in Barbados. It's a doddle. All you have to do is make 40 people pay £100 each per night to watch an artist, pay said artist peanuts (say £70) and bingo. £200K p.a.split three ways (and we been running now for 25 years.)

s'easy peasy

Spot the Dog

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 12:58 PM

ROFLMAO.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: the fence
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 06:05 PM

You musta done sommat else with the money s the d, judging by the shorts I saw you in last, cos it didnt go on the 'armani' hahahaha

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: fair maiden of nottingham
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 05:09 AM

it always amazed me when my lens frequented the folk clubs, the fees varied from a jug up to £10. A guest night (and depending on their fame)
can require a higher fee. Surely it is up to the audiance as to whether they wish to attend. A club will only grow and be well attended if the members recieve a good evenings entertainment. Entrance fees maybe a necessity in the 21st century, but it is still our choice as to pay or not.
I am associated with a club in SE london and yes we charge a fee £1 for a sing around and £2 for PA/guest night. That fee also allows a summer and autumn camp plus an xmas nights entertainment. With the exception of special guests when we may increase fee to £3.
Attendance and satisfaction is what makes a club.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: GUEST,Name witheld cos I need bookings!
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 06:18 AM

£2 for a guest night? That's an insult to the guest and to the music. Compare the enjoyment to be had from an evening's entertainment by a good singer or player with a the enjoyment to be had from a night out at the cinema, or the theatre or even just eating a good meal - which will cost anything from £5-£25. By charging only £2 (even if you do in fact pay the guest a decent whack, which I bet you don't) you are merely endorsing the notion that folk music is a cheap, worthless art/activity - of even less value than a pint of beer.

Clubs that charge silly small amounts like this are always the worst to play at, because the audiences are always the least respectful. They tend to arrive late, leave early, pay less attention to the performer (no matter how good), and often sing and play badly too - putting off both newcomers and 'fans.'

It's dammed hard work making a living from folk music and artists deserve respect for their skills and knowledge. Charge what it's worth!

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: woodsie
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 06:44 AM

Sounds about right to me.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 06:47 AM

£2 for a guest night? That's an insult to the guest and to the music

Not at all. Different clubs have different ways of operating. The couple I was involved with (with about 2 exceptions over the years) charged nothing on a guest night.

I don't believe there is a single correct solution but every approach has it's problems. One you can get by upping or even charging instead of free is that the people who support you week in/week out get upset at being charged for entry, or you try a 2 pricing scheme and have a memberhip, etc. and find objections that way, etc.

The only thing I feel sure of with the clubs I was involved with is that our weekly support, ie. floor singers and listeners was worth rather more to us than a guest who decides how much others should be paying to hear him/her. Lose that and unless you want a concert style club (which I for one dislike), as far as I'm concerned, you have lost all.

The guest's value to me is precicely (again with a couple of exceptions - we have "all" known a bigger name charge an incredibly reasonable rate) what we have agreed to pay him or her. How we raise it and what we decided to charge on the night is our concern (at least provided the artist gets paid).

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: JennyO
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 07:09 AM

Well if I charged amounts like that, I couldn't afford to have guests, and that's all there is to it. We have guests on most occasions, and we charge (Australian) $12 ($10 concession or for members of any folk organisation) on those nights. I think that translates into about 4 pounds and 3 pounds. On session nights it's a flat $5 (a bit less than 2 pounds). Some clubs in Sydney charge a bit more, and a couple who have mainly session nights charge less.

With overseas guests or guests who are especially sought after, the most I have charged is $15/$12. We take just enough to get by. I'm not in it for the money, but neither can I afford to subsidise it either. There was only one occasion when I really had to fork out to make up a deficit, for an overseas guest who demanded a minimum, and frankly, she wasn't wonderful enough to get the necessary bums on seats - good, but just not outstanding enough. It turned out to be only an average night. All a learning experience I guess.

I've thought about having more session nights, but we already have lots of opportunities for the regulars to do floor spots, and most seem to like the variety of guests and floorspots. We've been around for 9 years, so we must be doing something right!

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 07:19 AM

We've been around for 9 years, so we must be doing something right!

I suppose all in all between 2 places, my own experience was about 15 years, so I suppose we could make the same argument, Jenny...

Other things need to be taken into account with this sort of discussion btw. I'd imagane there is a vast difference between running a folk club in a big city like Sydney and in a small town in Wales.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: JennyO
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 07:38 AM

True Jon. Obviously what you are doing works where you are. It all makes the whole discussion a bit flawed really, because there are so many different situations being described here. Apparently the US idea of a folk club is very different from the UK idea. I suspect in Australia, a lot of our clubs are closer to the UK ones, but I don't think so many of ours are in pubs.

It's more likely that we will be operating from a space where we have to make everything happen, such as a hall. My club is in a unique space - not a pub, not a hall, but it is set up as a coffee shop. It operates as a coffee shop during the day, but it is not out in the street, so most people don't know about it. I could tell you more about it in a PM - it really is unique.

On the other hand, Sutherland Folk Club operates inside a licensed club which is different again. What I charge has to be somewhat on a par with what other clubs here are charging. Actually we are cheaper than most.

Am I right in thinking that your club has fewer guest nights and more session nights? That makes a difference. I suspect that yours being in a village makes a difference too. In Sydney there is a lot of entertainment out there. I think a higher proportion of city people expect to be entertained and pay for it. Another factor I think is that people have to travel further in Sydney to get to the folk clubs, and that has become more of an issue lately because of rising petrol prices. People are thinking long and hard before deciding to use up their expensive petrol to go out on a week night (Thursday in our case) and they won't do it unless they think it is worth their while.

So yes, there are lots of variables which all have to be balanced up and applied to each one's particular situation.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 07:51 AM

I could tell you more about it in a PM - it really is unique.

Please do.