finger vs flatpick setups

Subject: finger vs flatpick setups
From: Homeless
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 10:36 AM

"fingerpicking guitar tone and came up with a flatpicking tone"
I've seen mention of similar statements to this on the 'Cat before now. I just went out to buy my first guitar a month or so back. I went to four or five different places and at each one I asked about the difference between a fingerpick setup versus a flat pick setup. Each time I asked the store personnel looked at me as if I were an idiot, and told me there was no difference in guitars to make one better for one style than another.
Now I'm wondering since I saw another reference. Is there a difference in the setup of a guitar to make it more optimal for finger over flat picking? Or are there some brands/models that are better suited to one style over another?

Subject: RE: finger vs flatpick setups
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 10:43 AM

I have always felt that a flat picking set up had a slightly higher action. More drive and power to the sound. Due to the increased angle on the strings cause by the slightly higher saddle and bridge.

Lower action for finger style is my understanding. BUt then this is all preference and it could be very different for other people.

Don

Subject: RE: finger vs flatpick setups
From: freightdawg
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 11:02 AM

It would seem to me that what you gained near the sound hole you would lose in playability for the fretting hand. It makes more sense to me that it is the build of the guitar that would determine flatpicking or fingerpicking value. A dreadnought is going to have more boom and volume than a parlor size guitar, likewise if you are going to be fingerpicking a smaller body guitar makes more sense as it is a little easier to get your arm around (fer us little folks, anyway). I would also think if you were seriously trying to build one or the other that wood type and thickness would come into play - for instance flamenco guitar tops are extremely thin and bright, but they don't last near as long as a thicker top, nor do they have the sustain (which, in flamenco music, is not necessary). I would also think that string choice would be a factor as well.

I'm like Homeless here. I've never gone into a shop and seen guitars divided "flatpick" and "fingerpick." Choose the guitar you like and play it both ways.

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: finger vs flatpick setups
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 11:09 AM

Some folks like a flat-picking guitar to be bassier, therefore a dreadnought shape would suit them. I agree for rhythm playing, but prefer a more balanced sound for lead.
A fingerstyle guitar should be evenly balanced, bass to treble, since the melody (on the treble strings) can be overpowered on a bass heavy guitar.
Many finger-style guitarists also like a wider string spacing at the bridge.
I prefer a lighter guage string for finger style and a medium guage for flat picking.
Despite this, I usually take only one guitar to a gig.

Subject: RE: finger vs flatpick setups
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 11:56 AM

Try belting most guitars that heve been "set up".

I mean, really belt out some chords.

You are Pete Townsend, right?

The tone disappears in rattles.

Where you position the chords that get the most belting is the next issue.

THese things do make a difference to the setup you need.

Subject: RE: finger vs flatpick setups
From: Mooh
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 12:08 PM

Though I tend to play both styles on all my guitars and therefore set them up to handle both, if I wasn't going to flatpick an axe I would definately lower the action a tad. It's a bit of a compromise, a little high for fingerstyle, a little low for hard strumming. But that's my preference, not everyone will feel or play the thing the same. In the end I dislike string rattle and tend to set-up accordingly.

Seems to me that a knowledgeable tech would know what you're talking about. Store personnel aren't necessarily knowledgeable in my experience...just try talking tenor banjo with JoeRocker.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: finger vs flatpick setups
From: Grab
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 05:00 PM

Also the "richness" of tone plays an effect. If individual strings sound very harmonically rich, it's almost certainly going to sound great fingerpicked (individual notes ringing out) but strummed it'll turn into mush. Vice versa, guitars with a very "clean" sound might be too clinical for fingerpicking but great for strumming and flatpicking.

If this is your first guitar then it really doesn't matter a damn - you'll need to be spending more serious money (and using more serious ability) before this becomes an issue. For a first guitar, pretty much anything with a solid top at a reasonable price will do you if it sounds OK. Even the solid top is optional - some plywood guitars can sound nice, although it's rare. Just get the guitar tech to play the ones in your price range, and find the one that you think sounds nicest. Worrying about this kind of stuff now is like worrying about aerodynamic downforce and heel-toe techniques when you've only just passed your driving test. ;-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: finger vs flatpick setups
From: Homeless
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 10:09 AM

Thanks everyone. It looks like the answer to my question is both yes and no. Yes, people with discerning ears and fingers will differentiate, but that no, there is no "industry standard."
Although the action height surprises me - I thought it would probably have something more to do with neck width or string spacing at the bridge (farther apart to fit fingers in, closer together to get a flat pick from one string to another faster).

"If this is your first guitar then it really doesn't matter a damn" It's not my first guitar, just the first one I've bought. But it still doesn't matter a damn. My ear isn't yet good enough to recognise the quality of the sound, and my playing abilities are still so simple that setup isn't going to affect them.

Subject: RE: finger vs flatpick setups
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 10:24 AM

You started everyone off on setups (action) by specifically mentioning setups! Actions affect sound. Personally I prefer a plainer sound for my very limited fingerpicking, so the individual notes can be heard, and a rich sound for chordwork precisely so all the strings blend in for a big chord effect. The things mentioned below don't affect sound.

Chord players often want narrower necks too, to make it easier to play "thumby F" and "thumby Bb" or if you have a really really long thumb, "thumby Eb".

Fingerstyle players also often want more space at the bridge.

Finally, quite a lot of fingerstyle players have come from classical guitar and like a flatter fingerboard.

Subject: RE: finger vs flatpick setups
From: Homeless
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 12:26 PM

Sorry for the confusion, it's my ignorance talking. I assumed setup meant "anything that is relatively easy to modify on a guitar." So a setup is only the action based on the height of the bridge? The other would be, what? The build of the guitar?

I guess what I'm wanting to find out is anything/everything that makes a guitar more suited to one style over the other. Next time I go looking for a guitar I don't want to mess with any that wouldn't suit my style. And once I do have it, what can I possibly modify to make it easier to play and/or sound better.

Subject: RE: finger vs flatpick setups
From: Mooh
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 12:39 PM

Homeless...When I do set-ups for myself or customers I include nut and slots, saddle/bridge height, restringing, relief adjustment, and at least an inspection of frets, tuning machines, pins, buttons, and anything else that may be out of whack. Often I'll intonate the saddle, ramp the pin holes slightly, press in a fret or two, and if it's electric, electric stuff. I insist on new strings for the purpose as they will tune and intonate better than worn ones. Action is adjusted by means of saddle/bridge, once the nut, relief, and frets are properly set.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: finger vs flatpick setups
From: Homeless
Date: 09 Sep 06 - 11:10 AM

Good gravy, it looks like I knew even less than I realized. Mooh, if you've got the time would you be so kind as to explain how each of those might influence the finger vs flat sound and/or ease of playing?
Also, what is relief adjustment and ramp the pin holes?

Subject: RE: finger vs flatpick setups
From: Willie-O
Date: 09 Sep 06 - 01:02 PM

ramping pin holes: taking a little bit out of the front of the bridge pin holes, so the strings don't make a sharp right-angle turn which will cause them to break prematurely.

The setup differences between finger-picking and flat-picking are minimal. The objective is to have strings respond to your style of playing without buzzing or going out of tune. Flatpickers tend to hit the strings harder, so a little higher action may prevent buzzing. Personally (as a 90% flatpicker) I like the action as low as possible.

If you play in DADGAD or suchlike, the tech doing the setup should know this--should watch you play for awhile--because when tuned down to D and below, string buzz is much more likely to occur.   

Another consideration I have found is if you want to play slide, a flatter, wider fingerboard is preferable. With a narrow, radiused fingerboard, it's easy to get messed up and bump frets while trying to play on the high strings. (So a good fingerpicking guitar is a good slide guitar--despite low action. You just use a lightweight slide and learn to control it carefully)

W-O

Subject: RE: finger vs flatpick setups
From: Johnhenry'shammer
Date: 09 Sep 06 - 09:29 PM

I use a humidifier with my guitar that sits in between the 3rd and 4th strings. Not only does it keep my guitar from drying out in Denver's dry climate but it's made the guitar great for fingerpicking. The reason being, it's created a nice space between the bass and the treble strings. So if you're interested in fingerpicking, I reccomend getting a similar humidifier. Unless or course you live in a humid climate. In that case, a humidifier would be a very bad idea.