Morris: Male or Female?

Subject: Morris: Male or Female?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 12:00 PM

Women dancing morris: yay or nay?

Discuss.

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 12:03 PM

Why? What's to discuss?
People dance Morris. End of.

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: Bernard
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 12:15 PM

People dance...

Bernard
Chief Musician, Earl of Stamford Morris (MIXED).

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: jonm
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 12:33 PM

My only issue is with the aestetics of mixed morris. All the postures clash.

The average man dances with a straight back, bum tucked in, beergut thrust forward. The average woman tends to dance morris with the bum out, knees together type approach. Looks wrong. Even more so while the assorted flesh is oscillating to a halt after a leap!

There are notable exceptions, I've seen some excellently masculine and upright female dancers and some appallingly dire men, plus of course I have no beergut to thrust forward!

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 12:41 PM

It's a free world. People can do what they like. Morris dancing, or pole dancing. But inevitably the dances will need to change subtly, as moves appropriate to one sex may look slightly less so when performed by the other.

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: GUEST,Ancient Briton
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 12:44 PM

In the Present, all genders are equal. On this basis all may therefore dance "present" dances.

The Morris is a reincarnation of a past culture in which all were not equal. Men danced the Morris and women generally didn't.

If you believe that wearing a historically accurate copy of a flowery hat or wearing blackface makeup are essential parts of the Morris then I suppose you should also believe that women shouldn't dance the Morris.

If you are at ease with dancing the Morris in contemporary attire to the accomapniment of modern music then women may be OK to dance in your view.

I personally think that there's nothing nicer than women dancing, but they always seem a bit too keen on the actual dancing to give a convincing imitation of the rather diffident approach that the best Morris sides historically adopted.

Clogs Rule OK

AB

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 12:48 PM

I think it's all good; I belong to a mixed side, but enjoy seeing all men and all women sides as well. Mostly depends on how good the dancing is!

Cheers,

~D

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: JamesHenry
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 12:54 PM

Neigh, said the horse
It's a question of course
That confuses and clearly perplexes.
The best morris team
To me it would seem,
Has women who come from both sexes.

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: Santa
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 01:33 PM

Do you seriously think any man is going to argue with women wearing clogs?

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: Adrianl
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 03:03 PM

We often have this discussion down the pub about our mate Morris.

The high voice and boobs (maybe man-boobs?) swing the vote in one direction but the beard gives the opposire argument.

But does it?

And who cares?

Not this stupid argument again and again and again......

Adrian

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: RTim
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 03:11 PM

This question is old hat - as nobody has the right to say who can and who cannot dance Morris.
The differences between male & female dancers- ie. body shapes, etc. is a red herring, as in my nearly 40 years of experience, there can be major differences within the same gender.
Generally good dancers of either gender are taught well - and only good teaching from a good role model produces good dancing.

Tim Radford (ex-Adderbury Squire/Foreman etc,,)

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: Compton
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 08:33 PM

One day, not long from now there will be only "women" doing Morris then we won't have to discuss it, will we?

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: Andy Next Tune
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 10:48 PM

I'm with Tim on this. Quality is the real issue for debate, not male vs female.

There is far too much poor quality dancing, with not enough attention to detail, to precision, to putting on 'a show', to entertaining the public. And there are male teams and female teams and mixed teams which are all equally guilty (both with and without clogs).

As a result, the average member of the public has a low expectation when they encounter a morris team. And so it doesn't attract the essential new members.

Then look at the growth in the number Rapper Sword teams over recent years.- young/old, male/female/mixed, UK/international, and ask why?

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 12:31 AM

Rural women have had dance clubs for at least 150 years, they just did it quietly without all the beer, bells and tankards.

If you read 'Tess of the D'Urbervilles' by Thomas Hardy, he gives an account of a 'walking club'. Although his is a fictional account, it's based on an actual club that existed when TH was living in Dorset. These clubs consisted of the ladies of the parish who would dress in white, carry willow wands and parade around the parish boundaries ~ sound familiar? The parades were usually at Whitsun (when Grandad goes dancing...), it being the only time the ladies weren't expected to be 'keeping house' (spindle, bobbin and spool away). Once the essential tasks such as dairy work and child tending had been sorted, the ladies would progress around the parish, sometimes singing, sometimes just chatting. Once they got to a designated spot they would proceed to dance with each other.    The older villagers who couldn't walk that far would be there waiting for them with refreshments and when the men finished their work they would join the dancing.

My grandmother taught me how to do the Dorset 4 hand reel because it was one dance that she would do on these occasions. Apparently in the 1920s the club in her parish would stop at my great granfers farm and drink home made cider there. The dance would be in the hay barn which was practically empty, awaiting that years crop.

Although not strictly morris dancing, there are a lot of parallels ~ the white clothing (you don't wear white to work the fields), the holiday atmosphere, the renewal and marking of the parish boundaries at Rogationtide, the social aspect of a 'club', the carrying of a peeled willow wand or stick...

I would suggest that as each parish were doing this on the same day, maybe a colour was introduced for bordering parishes? That way, all those ladies in white wouldn't get confused and end up dancing with the wrong parish. A ribbon wound around a hat, a rosette pinned to a dress or blouse....?

Personally, I'm with Tim and Andy Next... having an eye or ear-catching gimmick like multicoloured or monochromed kit, huge 18 piece melodeon/sousaphone bands, lurid facepaint or a reputation for being wild is great... but none of that will stand up in the long run if you can't dance properly. Sooner or later people stop looking at the kit (or in the case of certain womens Rapper teams and Prince Albert Morris, the lack of it in the skirt department) and start looking at technique, ability and showmanship. That's when the bookings will start to fail. The longest running dance teams don't rely on gimmicks, they rely on good dancing.

Unfortunately, with society today, the quick gratification and gaudy presentation are the norm, so youngsters wanting to join a side will gravitate towards the flash, brash and multicoloured teams that abound on the scene at the moment. Or, if it's Black Swan, join the team that gets the most young girls (and with that I include those not so young and those who should know better) who drool over Damien Barber's ass; in hopes of pulling.

LTS

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 12:36 AM

Incidentally.... this (well to me it does...) raises the question ~

Which is the longest running side; that is, the side who can trace a definate lineage the furthest?

Google would have it as Thaxted Morris Men.... unless of course, you know different...!

LTS

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: jonm
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 03:20 AM

None of the Thaxted men have run anywhere in the last twenty years!

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 03:23 AM

It was all made up by the Morris Ring anyway.

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 03:36 AM

Rob Scrase - (widower of Pat Scrase ed Folkwrite) - posesses a book published 170 years ago delineating Female Morris dancers. No one is interested in his offer of archiving the tome.

And during WW1 there were plenty of documented instances of women keeping the tradition alive.

Given that it was often done at Mayday hiring fairs to showcase a man's fitness, the obvious mock fighting, and at Christmas (etc) as form of begging (one reason for black faces). This, in a ballanced family, would have been the man's side of the worksharing demarkation line - one can see the reason for the "tradition". But speaking personally I prefer skill to see and maybe humour - witness the Outside Capering Crew. And copy them with a beergut - I dare you.

And speaking as a man - I never have and never will (oooooer) dance Morris. Social dance and female partners are my preferrence. I deplore the new-fangled practice of men dancing with men in ceilidhs - it is bad enough deciding which person to veer towards when two ladies are partnered
(I know, I know the pretty one........................ ducks and runs for cover)

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: fiddler
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 03:44 AM

Yawn!

We had this back in the 70'2 and 80's. I was banned from admitting I was a founder member of a womens side at one ring based Ale in Kent! But that was a weekend that was!!!!

There are documents in C# whcih show women have always taken part to different degrees in Morris - cotswold included - for many different reasons if you follow the leads through.

Some traditions have not and some traditions uphold their tradition locally fine.

But as stated above we are 'a reincarnation of a past culture ' and if we get really fussy, the dance we do is just how it was on the day it was collected. It may have been different under a different squire the year before and then again the year after.

Lets rejoice and be merry!

Andy

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: GUEST,Ancient Briton
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 04:02 AM

I can't altogether agree with all of Andy Next Tune's criteria for quality.

Morris professes to be a tradition and IMHO a traditional event takes place and does so at a particular time and a place and in such a way becaues custom - the tradition - dictates that it should do so, rather than because those who happen to be the present custodians of the tradition, or those who might seek to observe the spectacle, feel that it should.

So perhaps a tradition such as the Morris is (or should be) executed and evaluated by its practicioners in a purely historical context internal to the side and where the criteria are chiefly concerned with the continuing orthodoxy and excellence of the dance, and generally not concerned with the opinions (or even the presence of) any audience.

Real traditions have their own magic which often coincidentally happens to have successfully drawn audiences over the years, because of factors in the tradition itself which are far more profound and effective than any innovative showmanship.   

So I can't agree that Andy's concepts of putting on a "show" and "entertaining" the public have much to do with traditional Morris dancing.

"Traditions" that rely on sustaining the interest of a wide public audience and that readily adapt themselves to feed the fickle tastes of that public cannot properly bedescribed as traditions.

But that's just my prejudices. I'm sure that others think differently and would be interested to hear.

Regards

AB

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: JamesHenry
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 04:08 AM

You've got it in one AB.

Totally agree.

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: GUEST,Ruston Hornsby
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 04:24 AM

Groan. Here we go again, talking about "Morris" and meaning "Cotswold Moris". It's a pity that all the different and regional styles of dance were lumped together under the same overall title because it leads to so many sweeping statements and generalisations.

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 04:27 AM

Didn't William Kimber reply, on being asked about women morris dancing, along the lines of "If it wasn't for women dancing the morris there wouldn't be any morris around today".

WK taught the dances to women.

If William Kimber didn't object to women dancing I don't see how any revivalist dancer/team can object.

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 04:41 AM

What's to discuss ? just ENJOY it, men or women it's great.

eric

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 04:59 AM

For me it's not a 'reincarnation of a past culture' but a continuation. As an East Ender I'm far removed from the origins of the dances I perform but I learnt them from people who learnt them from people who... way back to the people who danced the dances in their orginal settings. The dances change, the occasions change, the costumes change, the reasons change and so do the dancers.

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: GUEST,Ruston Hornsby
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 05:32 AM

I certainly consider that my involvement is part of doing it NOW.

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 05:36 AM

Mr Red, before you veer towards two women dancing together just consider that they may be happy to dance with each other rather than both longing for a man to turn up and 'rescue' them. I would much rather dance with a good dancer of whichever sex than one who veers towards me with other priorities.

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: GUEST,Train Guard
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 06:28 AM

The Lancashire tradition of Morris Dancing is replete with mixed and (sometimes) female sides. You can see a mixed side dancing in an old picture of Eccles Wakes, painted early in the nineteenth century.

When Morris declined, the dances were taken up by sides associated with mills and chapels, composed almost exclusively of girls. These were mostly transformed into 'jazz dancers' after the First World War, and these became the ancestors of the modern 'pom pom' troups (still called 'morris dancers' by a few people).

In the course of the revival that kicked off in the 1960's, the steps to dances such as 'Stubbins Lane Garland' were learned from old ladies who had danced it as little girls in Edwardian times....

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: GUEST,Ruston Hornsby
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 06:47 AM

Well said. I somehow think that the "men only" issue has a lot more to do with the attitudes of the early revival morris teams of former public schoolboys than any proven history.

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: GUEST,Ancient Briton
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 06:49 AM

James Henry:

thanks for your agreement

I don't set out to criticise people who do "modern" morris dances - they're fulfilling an important role in presenting (usually) high quality exhibitions of old dances - but are only as much in context as the Elgin Marbles being displayed in London.

Some modern outfits who have the confidence to stand by their own objective values and sustain the continuity of their events may in time become truly traditional. Sadly I don't think that many will manage do this.

By the way I wasn't really referring to Cotswold Morris - more to Lancashire.

Regards

AB

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 06:55 AM

Lancashire tradition of Morris Dancing is replete with mixed and (sometimes) female sides

Fidler's Fancy can trace there history back further than Handsworth.

And frankly I'd sooner spend a weekend with Pecsaetan, Mortimer's Fidler's, Windsor Black Anis, etc than many men's teams. Much more fun.

And read http://www.thedonkey.org/Recycling/so_who_was_mary_neal.html

for an interesting story about women dancing.

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 07:51 AM

The best solution is to have enough dancers in the side so you can field Mens, Ladies, or Mixed teams, as you feel like.....

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: Severn
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 08:01 AM

They've just changed the photo on the Nine Lives cat food box yet again, and I STILL can't tell! Probably a whole bunch of them of both sexes, like dogs playing Lassie...

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 08:10 AM

My only objection to the ladies dancing , is with Cotswold ! No matter how good a dancer a lady may be , the way they are put together means that a galley does NOT look right when performed by a Female leg joint ! OTherwise , Bloody Good luck to them all , which ever tradition , and wether All Men . All Women ,or Mixed !!

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: danensis
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 04:58 AM

At one time Winster Morris used to refuse to attend events at which female sides were performing. I don't know if they still do?

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 05:10 AM

A member of Manley Morris told me that letting women dance is dangerous because the next thing you get is girls dancing. And there is certainly a tradition of girl's Morris teams in Cheshire (fluffy morris).
Not thatI agree that its a bad thing, just a bit different.

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: Planketta
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 07:40 PM

Well I really dont agree with female morris dancers. If you want to be a morris man, then surely you have to be a man?!? in was brought up with a strictly male only north west side and still love watching them dance. When theres women dancing it never looks as polished or accomplished. there are plenty of womens sides to dance with for example garland, clog, appalachian and step, so i think morris should be left to the men. having said that, do what you like, whatever makes you happy do it. theres nothing worse than boring old dance sides!

xxx

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: squeezeboxhp
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 07:57 PM

cat amongst the pidgeons! are there any female mummer's and if so who plays the dame

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: Ref
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 09:31 PM

I hope they love music, and sing in the chorus
But don't let my children grow up to dance morris!

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: GUEST,catlin
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 05:35 AM

"And the ladies go dancing at Whitsun" is about Morris Dancing. Just like in Scottish Country Dancing, if you don't have enough men you get the women to play men. The same for international folk dancing.

I guess it's that way with most "male" things. When the men are gone enter Rosie the Riveter.

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: GUEST,Wayne
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 07:31 AM

It realy doesn't matter about gender. Morris is a spectacular artform which is enjoyed by more people than you think!

As to female sides, at the Abbey festival, Medusa from North Yorkshire were fab. With their gothic garb & stately movements they won over a large, not entirely folkie crowd and were given rapturous applause.

In Leeds, the all female Briggate Morris are one of the most exciting dance teams around. When a genuine sense of fun joins with real skill, the results really are something to watch.

Whether it's male, female or mixed morris dancing is a wonderful spectacle. Much more enjoyable than Michael Flatulence and his Bored of the Dance schtick!

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 12:32 PM

I'da liked to hope that women were too smart for that nonsense....

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 02:15 PM

I'm with Dr. Johnson on this one (slightly modified).

Women dancing Morris is like a dog's walking on his hinder legs. It is not that it is done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all.

AND we have women preachers!!!

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: Selchie - (RH)
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 03:27 PM

LTS

Going back to your question on longest-running sides & definite lineage ~ Have a look at Chipping Campden Morris Men ~ a true Cotswold side with a long history ~ especially the mention of a group of young girls dancing during the second world war.

http://www.rootsweb.com/~engcots/MorrisMen.html

Rosie Stroud

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: Lester
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 05:07 PM

My personal preferance is for blokes to dance Cotswold, or for women. What I dislike is mixed because it usually looks poorer than the other two. But it's just my preference and I don't want to foist it on anyone else!

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 06:35 PM

When Ann Franklin was researching the history of women's north-west dancing 30ish years ago, at the start of Poynton Jemmers, she sought info from Julian Pilling (Colne Royal, OUMM). He sent a postcard back saying he didn't believe women should emulate men in either education or morris dancing. Jemmers were a) inspired and b) booked at Sidmouth soon after.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: Compton
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 04:02 PM

Just a thought about this...how many men's Morris Sides were a t Sidmouth and Whitby? Is it me or a) Men's sides don't dance at folk festivals any more b) aren't invited to festivals any more...or don't want to dance at festivals where there are more women then men...Men's Morris is dying out...Does anyone share my thoughts as to why?

Subject: RE: Morris: Male or Female?
From: JohnB
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 11:11 PM

At the time of the "so called" origins/ earliest records of Morris dancing women were not even allowed to act on the stage.
Do we really want to go back there?
Every side has good and bad dancers or good and better or better and not as good, TOTALLY regardless of sex.
So who is really bothered or offended by same sex or mixed sides, just a few holier than though's. Give me a fair mixed side over a poor unisex side any day.
Just do it and have fun doing it, the audience will prefer to see people having fun and enjoying themselves, laughter is contagious after all.
JohnB