Overproduced recordings

Subject: Overproduced recordings
From: Dr John
Date: 04 Mar 99 - 03:54 PM

How many Mudcatters have heard a singer in concert, on a live recording or on the radio where the accompaniment is simple - guitar, banjo etc. That's the essence of folkmusic to me - simple, direct. Then you buy the CD only to find it overproduced with nasty innapropriate things like keyboards, saxophones, strings, choirs ... the lot, so wrecking everything. I guess the record producers must think that this will help sell more records. Am I in the minority or can we persuade them otherwise?

Subject: RE: Overproduced recordings
From: SeanM
Date: 04 Mar 99 - 04:01 PM

Are you in the minority? I think it's an even coin toss. It seems like the more 'basic' and down to earth singers (and recordings) attract more of the hard core folk audience, but sadly, that's not many people.

At the same time, by overloading the recording with effects, the producer is aiming for a wider crowd, on the off chance of attracting airplay and producing something of a commercial hit. Sadly, this often happens without the artist's consent, and indeed, sometimes in direct opposition to their wishes.

The best salve I can offer is that the occasional person who's never heard any folk music that they can remember will occasionally stray from the pre-processed pablum that passes for pop music at the hands of one of these overmade recordings, and discover the music behind it and join our ranks... and with every one, the music grows stronger.

M

Subject: RE: Overproduced recordings
From:
Date: 04 Mar 99 - 08:59 PM

The dictionary definition of overproduced folk music: ON TOP OF OLD SMOKEY & GOODNIGHT IRENE on Decca Records about 1950/51 by the Weavers with the full orchestra of Gordon Jenkins, strings and all. Maybe the blacklist did some little good when they were forced out of a major label and back to their roots.

Subject: RE: Overproduced recordings
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 05 Mar 99 - 12:03 AM

"Crossover," I believe, is what it's called when a recording is made in one milieu and people who follow one or more other types of music find it appealing. What it usually means is that the performer has to lower his or her normal standards.

I remember years ago driving around in a car all day visiting a colleagues' accounts. She told me she liked jazz so I was ready for a day of it. It turned out she liked "lite jazz" which, to my ear, is pop music (no improvization) played by typical jazz combos. This is "crossover" stuff. Like the little old lady asked in the Wendy's commercials, "Where's the beef?" Hey, jazz is about improvization!

For me, much of the beauty of folk music comes because of its odd coupling of musical sophistication and true simplicity. The more contrived, the more complicated the rendering, the more likely the all-important story will be lost. The reasons why the old A.L. Lloyd - Ewan MacColl sea shanty recordings sound so much better than the Norman Luboff and Mitch Miller stuff is that the singers had experienced life, were relatively few in number so that they could be heard individually and there was only one harmony part. Simplicity made it great!

The only orchestral rendering of folk music I have ever cared for is Copland's American Songs (I believe that's the title). Why? The instrumentation is entirely secondary to the singing. It works!

All the best,
Dan

P.S. Sorry for not being kinder and gentler but this is about art.

Subject: RE: Overproduced recordings
From: Margo
Date: 05 Mar 99 - 10:16 AM

That's interesting about crossover, Dan. The first sea shantys I ever hear were sung by Louis Killen. I liked them so much that I began looking for any recordings of sea shantys I could find. I bought a tape by the Regimental String Band called "Saturday Night at Sea". I was dismayed when I heard essentially Bluegrass music. I like bluegrass music very much, but not in shantys.

That is why I started the thread "vocal embellishments, guidelines?" I wanted to be able to sing the old ballads without ruining them, I think after all the help I got I can do them justice.

I guess the best form of persuasion on our part is to keep recording the music in the true style. It is a supply and demand thing, I'm sure. But there must be enough of a demand....... I have Liam's brother's new CD.......that's one vote.

Margarita

Subject: RE: Amen
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 05 Mar 99 - 11:17 AM

Slick production is killing music of all types. It is elimating it's soul. I just got the Chess 50th anniversary John Lee Hooker CD. On one track John Lee coughs a few times during a guitar solo. Did it ruin the song? Not in the least. There is no way it would happen today. It would be re-done and polished until it sounded like Celine Dion. Popular music today is just Muzak with vocals, which is why I listen to blues, folk and classic Rock. How the general public can listen to it I will never know.

My brother said it best a few weeks ago, Easy Listening is an Oxymoron.

Subject: RE: Overproduced recordings
From: Aldus
Date: 05 Mar 99 - 12:31 PM

Here we go again on the "folk Musis is soooooo superior" Rant. Good music is goos music...period. I have heard some excellent music played by "non-improvisational" jazz musicians. I have also heard musically horrid versions of wonderful songs done by so-call traditional singers....as for Celine Dion..I am not a fan of that kind of music, but I will say this for her she is great singer because all of her heart and soul goes into what she does...and that is what all music is about. It is not about any narrow definition of what we like, it is about joy, and heart. These elements span all types of music> The "pure" music arguement denies this and in so doing renders itself peurile and sophmoric. Live and let live.

Subject: RE: Overproduced recordings
From: Bert
Date: 05 Mar 99 - 01:11 PM

I like well produced pop and country music. A good, sensitive, production can add to almost any song. But it can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Overproduced recordings
From: Teresa
Date: 05 Mar 99 - 02:12 PM

Um ... can you say "riverdance"? ... *grin* I wonder how many people have discovered traditional music from seeing and hearing it? I certainly heard a lot of overproduced music that called itself "folk" when I was a kid, but I thankfully discovered more traditional stuff! I admit that I like "folk-rock"--the likes of Steel Eye Span and Fairport Convention. I generally categorize music in my head, though, and I get annoyed when something that advertises itself as traditional ends up being overproduced. Teresa

Subject: RE: Overproduced recordings
From: Jeremy J Woodland
Date: 06 Mar 99 - 01:37 AM

I find alot of times, the artist's true talents can be lost a little bit in the production process. For example: I have seen Martin Sexton many times in concert, and his voice is just amazing, and his sutle guitar style was the perfect complement for it. I just bought his new atlantic release "The American," and i found it grossly overproduced, to the point that his voice really didn't get to stand out over the cheezy rhythm and drum tracks. Also, lets not forget that the reason that guys like Sexton get their initial following, is because people like what they are doing when the see them in concert, or when they hear the independantly released CD.

Subject: RE: Overproduced recordings
From: Don Meixner
Date: 06 Mar 99 - 02:02 AM

I dislike over production in music very much. But who is to say what is overproduced? I have heard "How Can I Keep From Singing" done by a young woman on voice and lap dulcimer. Beautiful. Liquid sound. Pure soul. I have a friend who said it was over done because "HCIKFS" should only be done accapella. I think Pricilla Herdman's album "Waterlilly" is one of the few perfectly produce albums out there along with Paul McNeill "Traditionally at The Troubadour" but then thats an opinion.

I get real scared when I see Post-production by Montovani on an album however.

Don Meixner

Subject: RE: Overproduced recordings
From: Dani
Date: 06 Mar 99 - 08:29 AM

How many times have I heard someone sing/play wonderfully, bought a recording, and been disappointed? There is one flip side (will this metaphor go the way of the 'broken record'?): it keeps me going to hear them in person! And it encourages ME to sing instead of listening to overproduced junk.

Subject: RE: Overproduced recordings
From: Ronn
Date: 06 Mar 99 - 12:40 PM

While there is no doubt that the world is overrun with potentially beautiful songs covered up with orchestral sludge, I try not to think of it not so much as over-production as hearing with different ears. Much of it is not to my taste, but being a fan of "fringe" music, I dont expect it to be. Yes, I still prefer any Carnegie Hall Concert version of the Weavers doing ROCK ISLAND LINE or GOODNIGHT IRENE to the Decca versions, but the Decca versions still made it possible for The Weavers, Pete Seeger, Lead Belly, et al, to enter the popular consciousness of the 50's, which made it possible for Bob Dylan, PPM, Joni Mitchell, Bruce Springsteen, John Sebastian, Jimmy Buffett, Christine Lavin, Joan Baez, Bill LaBounty, Vance Gilbert, Holly Near, and probably a few others to emerge later.

There is certainly a world of difference between Arthur Conley's SWEET SOUL MUSIC and the version by the Burns Brothers, but it's still just a matter of hearing with different ears.

How many people, after hearing Bob Dylan doing SONG FOR WOODY and TALKIN' NEW YORK, heard his version of CORRINA CORRINA and thought it was over-produced?

Subject: RE: Overproduced recordings
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 06 Mar 99 - 01:38 PM

Ronn, Ooh this hurts, but you hit the nail on the head. I DID think Corrina Corrina was overproduced! Langhorne's electric guitar grated on me, but I could be pretty intolerant in those days. Sounds pretty good now..but I wish the bass player had learned the chords.

Subject: RE: Overproduced recordings
From:
Date: 06 Mar 99 - 06:35 PM

Even some great talent fell into this. In my view, many of Stan Rogers's efforts would have been the better if more simply performed. Some of the Furey's LP's from the late 70's are also too over-produced, and I could probably think of many others if I put my mind to it. Perhaps they were at the mercy of the producers and engineers who were used to working with the schmaltzy concept rock of the time.

I think I mentioned one of Canada's best and least-known song-writers, Diamond Joe White. He's got a rough, cowboy style and at his best is a songwriter on a par with those other Canadians Stan Rogers, Ian Tyson, and early Gordon Lightfoot. He released two LP's in the late 70's/early 80's and somehow managed to lose control of the masters. So he has re-recorded both LP's and released them on a single CD.

This effort is vastly superior to the LP versions, because he has kept the songs rough and unpolished. (He did in fact work as a cowboy for while and grew up on a ranch in western Canada, but his present day job is running Diamond Joe's Plumbing.) The CD is called, aptly, "Honestly" and I highly recommend it.

Subject: RE: Overproduced recordings
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 Mar 99 - 09:52 PM

I just picked up a couple of Skip Gorman's CD's. I bought them each for one song. I've heard him sing both these songs ("Blue Mountain" & "Rivers Of East Texas"), he did them different than I'd remembered or did them & I thought I liked the way he did them far better. What a treat to find them both wonderfully produced & all as good if not better as hearing him live. Barry

Subject: RE: Overproduced recordings
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 06 Mar 99 - 11:11 PM

Letting the timber of the instroment and the heart of the performance stand on it's own takes a certain kind of bravery and ,for one ,I'm so glad there are all thoughs small studios out there for us all to give it a try.Yay for digital recording{Though I like thoughs old thick tapes more}The biggest problem is how much fun it is to add "stuff" to a perfectly good and honest peice.I just bought a mandolin to use as rythum under some slide work on the next CD and it sounded so good I tryed it on another song but then added a concert bass drumm for bottum and all of a sudden I had Will the circle Be Unbroken as a marching derge{good thuogh}. As in any art form,finding truth and honesty is all any of it shuold be about .I always liked Judy Collins voice and was always saddened with the tons of exstras her producers had to add.Good luck to us all in finding and keeping our own truth .Cheers to all ,Guy.........................

Subject: RE: Overproduced recordings
From: Sam Hudson
Date: 07 Mar 99 - 07:50 AM

I've lost count of the times I've enjoyed a live performance, bought a CD at the gig and found on listening to it that what attracted me to the artist's music is diluted or obscured by excessive/inappropriate production in the studio. Having spoken to any number of working performers about this over the years, it seems that often they get pressured into it by the management or production people; or sometimes they just get carried away by the fun you can have in a studio! (I know that one myself...)

Mind you, sometimes the reverse happens... I've always loved James Taylor's music, and last year got to see him in concert for the first time. He walked out on stage on his own and sang with just his own beautiful guitar for accompaniment. Magic. Okay, so he did have some sidemen who joined him after a few numbers, but he'd proved (if proof were needed) that he could cut it on his own.

Subject: RE: Overproduced recordings
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 07 Mar 99 - 01:22 PM

Skip Gorman makes great albums!

Subject: RE: Overproduced recordings
From: Willie-O
Date: 07 Mar 99 - 02:03 PM

I knew Mr S Rogers' name would come up. (Like him or not, he was a huge influence on the course acoustic music has taken) As I understand it, the production values represented a perennial difference between, on one side, Stan & Paul Mills, who liked the big sound, and Stan's family who preferred the basic folkie thing. So they alternated--Songs from Fogarty's Cove, Between the Breaks, and (somewhat) Northwest Passage being the ones where the latter prevailed.

It sure is fun to lay on all the stuff you hear in your head, but don't have enough hands to try in a performance. A few years ago when I started my first serious recording, (still unfinished), it was neat to have the digital 8-track, and be able to call in various friends who all had something to add, but couldn't be there at the same time. I still like the tracks we filled out that way, but some people listen to them and say "the sound is really clear, but..." and I know what they mean. The arrangements are nifty and the playing is very good, but there's an artificial sense to the sound. Maybe its the high standards we had for "keeper" tracks, but it sure doesn't sound like I usually do--insufficiently funky I guess!

Bill

Subject: RE: Overproduced recordings
From: Ronn
Date: 13 Mar 99 - 10:08 AM

Rick--just out of curiosity--did you still think "Corrina Corrina" sounded overproduced after hearing "Subterranean Homesick Blues" for the first time?

Subject: RE: Overproduced recordings
From:
Date: 13 Mar 99 - 12:16 PM

Awhile back I allowed as how some Weavers' Decca records were the epitome of overproduced. They are now in second place. Last week I bought a Leon Bibb album; I have two other LB albums which are great. This is the worst buck I ever spent. There were some great songs, but the arrangements...FEH! So bad is the album that I will not cross-reference the tracks in my data base. I wonder how melting vinyl smells. Beware Leon Bibb "The Now Composers" if ever you see it.---John (not Jon)

P.S. Is that the correct spelling of FEH?

Subject: RE: Overproduced recordings
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Mar 99 - 04:49 PM

Ronn, I was a snotty holier than thou folkie in those days. ("but I was so much older then") Now I love "Corrina", and "Sub..." God knows what I thought at the time! Worst disapointment re; overproduced albums was the time I bought a Josh White record (Love his playin) and found him surrounded, and eventually massacred by a jazz band that didn't have a clue what he was doing.

Subject: RE: Overproduced recordings
From: Ronn
Date: 15 Mar 99 - 12:10 AM

Hey Rick, dont sweat it. I recently found some old tapes of me talking about music when I was 16 or 17, and cringe at the evidence of what a musical bigot (read raving lunatic ASSHOLE) I was in those days. We were all older then... Re Josh White, I have vague memories of an album he made (probably late 50's) with Jazz drummer Max Roach and a bass player (Charles Mingus?). I seem to recall that their backing of him was fairly understated and tasteful, so this is probably not the one you are talking about. I know there were others where he was put in a pseudo-dixieland setting that was clearly unfortunate. There are many cases of this type where someone had a vision of mixing artists from different genres. Some are successful (BB King & George Jones, Willie Nelson & Ray Charles, Jimmy Rogers & King Oliver), but MANY are misguided (Muddy Waters & Dizzy Gillespie, John Lee Hooker & Vic Dickenson, Frank Sinatra & Bono). I dont know if this counts as overproduction or not, but it does tend to leave one scratching one's head & wondering "what were they thinking?"

Subject: RE: Overproduced recordings
From: Alistair Robb
Date: 15 Mar 99 - 09:10 AM

I think we're getting into a question of perception here about what is overproduced and whatis badly produced. A lot of what we hear and think of as overproduced is just badly produced, by producers/engineers that have no feel for a type of song, be it blues, filk, jazz or even rock..so they tend to bung everything in. And the Na‹vet‚ of bands who want that big rock feel or put on layer after layer of tracks and reverb and echo just to make that big sound. Case in point 'Leige and Leaf'by Fairport was a terribly produced album, they just stuck on loads of stuff and didn't worry about how crowded it seemed. This wasn't overproduction, but bad production, they really didn't know what they were doing. But as the Fairport Albums progressed they became more refined and less busy, as they matured in their knowledge. Also I think with folk musicians it's the temptation to muck about and gert stuff and effects that they can't get in a live performance that can blind (deafen?) them to how their recordings sound. Also this big rock studio thing sort of makes you lose your head a bit :o) I know I was there.

Subject: RE: Overproduced recordings
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 15 Mar 99 - 12:30 PM

Yeah, I think "bad" production is the key here. The Josh White "dixieland" album is probably the one I got. Still my biggest complaint about the "mix and match" style of putting one artist with someone from a different style is in the lack of rehearsal that often results in conflicting chord changes. This drives me batty. For years producers would hook up John Lee Hooker with various contemporary rock stars and the results were AWFUL! Still pop fans bought the albums and I guess that was the point. Even Pete Seeger on a few occasions has allowed himself to be presented on record this way. Man does he sound uncomfortable with electric guitars!

Subject: RE: Overproduced recordings
From: Wally Macnow
Date: 15 Mar 99 - 03:35 PM

For the most part I'm not as bothered by the extra instrumentation or weird rhythms that sometimes go into "folk" recordings. I just don't consider them folk music. It's really American Popular Music -- someone trying to make a commercially successful CD.

What really gets to me is the reverb that I hear from time to time on relatively recent recordings of traditional music. I find it really distressing to be unable to understand the words to a song because of an echo chamber. And it's also ruined, at least for me, some very fine underlying singing. If they'd left the reverb off, some singers would have had great records.

Subject: RE: Overproduced recordings
From: AlistairUK
Date: 15 Mar 99 - 04:56 PM

That's not reverb...that's atmosphere, or what some folkies like to think it is...It's great singing unaccompanied in a place that's got great acoustics...but the hamhanded attempts of some artists to recreate those acoustics in the studio are amateurish to say the least...to everyone except the singer of course.

Subject: RE: Overproduced recordings
From: Sam Hudson
Date: 15 Mar 99 - 05:21 PM

Alistair - you mentioned Fairport a few posts earlier. I saw them a few years back and was sitting in the second row at the Derby Assembly Rooms. They were doing 'The Wounded Whale' - a big production number. Now, I could swear that Simon Nicol was miming his guitar... I might be wrong, and if so, I apologise to him profusely. (I'm a big fan of his playing, I should add.) But I've been playing guitar for twenty years and it certainly looked like it.

If I was right, then surely that was a prime case of over production. In any event, quite apart from the guitar part, when a 'folk'-rock band has to have a Macintosh on stage to handle part of the production, I can't help thinking it's gone over the top.

All that said, last time I saw them, after Chris Leslie had come in to replace Maart, they did seem to have stripped out some of the more intricate stuff, and to my mind it was a big improvement.

Subject: RE: Overproduced recordings
From: MARLOR
Date: 15 Mar 99 - 05:56 PM

There was a time when I liked a lot of instrumentation on recordings. Silly me,I was young then. What did I know. As far as adding additional instruments, like drums, to an album, it's just not necessary. I was disappointed when I heard drums on a New Grass Revival tape that I have.

Subject: RE: Overproduced recordings
From: marlor
Date: 15 Mar 99 - 06:04 PM

Couldnt've said it better myself. I like Celine. she puts on a great live show. One man's music is another man's noise.

Subject: RE: Overproduced recordings
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 16 Mar 99 - 03:19 PM

Another thread just reminded me of the best example of a non overproduced album that I have heard. Although Willie Nelson had tremendous success as a writer, he struggled for years as a recording artist as Nashville continued to fill up his material with strings, female back up vocals etc. His wonderfully written songs were ruined by the time they came out on record. Disgruntled, he went back to Texas and wrote, recorded and produced "The Red Headed Stranger." When he played the tape for the record executives he was told it was nice and was asked when he was going to finish it. Of course, it was finished. This is a beautifully crafted piece of music, a great example of 'Less is More' and is of course the album that broke Willie's career wide open.

I have very diverse tastes in music, but Willie is one of my favourite performers. Believe it or not he has no fireworks, no glitzy clothes, no statuesque back up singers, he doesn't run and jump around the stage and the last time I saw him there wasn't an electric guitar on the to be seen anywhere. Yet the perfomance that he and his band give is truly an expereince. It is like one huge kitchen party.

Subject: RE: Overproduced recordings
From: AlistairUK
Date: 16 Mar 99 - 04:20 PM

Hmmm Fairport miming guitars...yeah I can believe it, I have seen it with other bands (though not folk ones normally. As to having computer technology on stage to help the production...it's a lot cheaper than having 5 keyboard programmers there doing it for you. Let's face it, Fairport are a supergroup they have to have this sort of production...they're the Rolling Stones of the Folk world...next it will be tours of Brazil and inflatable statues just like Pink Floyd. This is not overproduction...this is unnecessary production.