Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)

Subject: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 10:04 AM

Prompted in part by the repeat showing of Kathryn Tickell's TV programme last night and coming across a tape I made of a BBC Radio 3 documentary from about 3 years ago that included a section on students and Folk Degree in Newcastle I thought I'd start a discussion on the whole thing. (Also in part by a burning desire to wrap a baseball bat around one of the student's head).

As I see it some of the possible benefits are:
A higher profile for folk music,
Any degree level education is a good thing in and of itself,
Exposure to other traditions
Meeting and learning from the "masters" of their trade
How to be a professional musician

Some of the possible pit falls:
Many of the students ending up with the same or similar style
Losing individual traditions in favour of a mish-mash of traditions
Production of an elite group of musicians vs the rest
Concentration on the technical aspets to the detriment of the music
A 'right way' and a 'wrong way' to do the music.

Other points:
Is there enough interest to keep or increase the number of courses available or will the course(s) disappear in a few years?
Is there a danger of creating 'Academic Folk' that's different from (or is it to?) 'The People's Folk'?
Can a folk degree be as academically rigorous as a normal, classical say, music say
Are all musical instruments treated equally (piano accordion/one row melodeon;classical flute/tin whistle) or is their a bias towards the 'classical' instruments and away from the simple?

What do you think?

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 10:36 AM

People might take a moment to read about what the four-year BMus course actually entails. such as course content and entry requirements, before deluging this space with the usual prejudices such as 'we never needed this sort of thing in my day' and 'reading music stops you being a proper trad musician', blah blah . . .

Also they might bear in mind that England is very much behind other countries (not least Scotland and Ireland) as well as Finland and Sweden, in giving equal recognition to traditional as to establishment arts.

The website is a bit crap and I can't link to the actual course page. You have to click through from 'Learning & Participation'.

http://www.thesagegateshead.co.uk/

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Scoville
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 11:08 AM

Okay, not that I object, but WHY?

I already know two people with Ph.D.'s in Medieval music who couldn't get jobs--one is a library cataloguer (went back to school for an MLIS after the Ph.D.) and the other is a stay-at-home mom.

Of course, study what you want to and love; life's not all about money, but it seems like an expensive way to learn about folk music that will likely have little opportunity even to break even at the end of it all, and school ain't getting any cheaper.

***

I tend to be very pessimistic about academics in general so there's no way I'd want to study something I loved so well at this level of formality. I guess there are tradeoffs--formal academcs often equals funding, which is good. On the other hand, I'd be suspicious of it for all of the possible drawbacks written above. I'd hate to see standardization--which i think already happened to some degree during the 1960's when the stuff was popular and selling--of a genre that has done so well with improvisation and experimentation, but who knows?

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Peace
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 11:12 AM

The purpose of getting degrees is not necessarily to get jobs. Often, the purpose is to learn. My 'studies' in Old and Middle English do me little good in the world of work, but what I learned there helps me read stuff that predates Modern English.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 11:26 AM

One thing it has already produced is a "hot spot" of talented musicians. It has given a number of young people the exposure which has allowed them to get a regular income as performers. It has allowed them to play music together in combinations which would otherwise not have happened.
Something similar was already starting to happen as a consequence of the Folkworks initiative, but the Degree course has intensified the process.
What effect this process will eventually have we can only guess, but it is certainly one to watch.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 11:28 AM

The smearing out of regional styles seems to me the most cogent arguments against any formalisation of the teaching of folk music. This could only really be avoided by having one college in every village(as it used to be, but informally). Now, maybe the staff at Newcastle are equipped to watch out for this danger, and avoid it, I dont know. Does anybody with any actual knowledge of this course have any opinions in this direction?
   Presumably, as this course has been running a while, there should be some pudding around, which we could prove by eating: I mean, what musicians were actually on this course, and are their records(or live performances) notably better, or worse, than when they went to the university? Anybody know? Incidentally, it is no use arguing that people who have been on the course play better than those who weren't, as the university selected high fliers to start with.A difficult question this, I know, as you would have to make allowance for the fact that most 18/19/20 year old musicians would be teaching themselves even if they weren't at university, as people always have done. So, just how do you go about proving this course is a good thing?
   My own general impression is that these courses are not of any particular value in improving the standard of musical performance, but of great value in disseminating knowledge of the music. I would not, personally, use a university to teach people how to play Soldier's Joy. I would definitely use a univesirty to teach people how to teach other people how to play Soldiers Joy.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Scoville
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 11:35 AM

I didn't say the sole purpose was to get jobs (I've got a BA in history; talk about not a degree for getting a job), but I still think it's something to keep in mind and in perspective, at least on the student's side.

--

Greg--so, why not get a music teacher certification?

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Peace
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 11:37 AM

"I didn't say the sole purpose was to get jobs"

I am aware of that, thanks.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 11:42 AM

I dont think most qualified music teachers are much good at teaching people to play Soldiers Joy well. They can certainly teach kids to play the notes in the right order, in tune, and as fast as you like: but that is not quite the same thing as playing it well. I think a university course in folk music should make students study folk music, and then they might be able to teach it well.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 11:57 AM

I think what might help people to contribute to this thread with more understanding is if they read what the degree is about

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 12:04 PM

Sorry, I did not mean to exclude other folk music degrees from that. But the Newcastle one is the only one in the UK.

Devil´s Interval - who I understand will be on the next Waterson:Carthy CD, and are on the forthcoming Waterson:Carthy Frost and Fire tour and are making a name for themselves around the scene are graduates. See home page

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 12:05 PM

Interesting link. I see that 'world music' appears as a module. Oh bugger!

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: dermod in salisbury
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 12:17 PM

There are some thought provoking parallels to this topic. Take languages as an example. The most fluent English speaking foreigners have usually acquired their proficiency by working as waiters in tourist hotels rather than by formal study. Similar, striving would be pop starts invariably learn their craft strumming in the attic all night, not be attend one of the royal schools. If the desire and the enthusiam is there, a curriculum can probably get in the way. BUT, the work done in recent years by some universities to cherish and preserve fading local traditional arts can only be esteemed. I can cite not only Newcastle, but Aberdeen, Edinbrugh, and Queen's Belfast, and there are doubtless others. Scholarship and research of this kind is the proper role of universities, in folk art no less than any other art. The mere existence of such departments will attract students who love the subject and wish to steep themselves in it. Whether they become famous performers is not relevant. The only danger I can see is, the academic approach being what it is, sooner or later 'experts' will start abstracting formulas and rules to manage classify their subject, then the next thing there will be a 'right' and a 'wrong' folk music, a model answer folk music, etc, etc. I see no sign of that yet.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 12:23 PM

He no longer posts much here, but Mudcatter Ian Stephenson was one of the first to graduate from the Newcastle program. Many of us in the states were happy to have Ian and Sam Pirt accompany Bill Sables here on one of his trips. They came to our place in May/June of 2001 and it was a memorable night. Ian and Sam played music and frisbee in equal doses and Ian taught Karen and Connie how to make proper Yorkshire tea, which Bill always brought along.

I'm sorry none of you remember Ian going to school and graduating but the last I heard all was going pretty well for him and Sam as well. I haven,t checked past postings but here's a link for Sam and Ian and their group--422.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 12:30 PM

Ian is also curreently playing with the Kathryn Tickell Band. He truly is a fantastic musician.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 12:40 PM

In my opinion the best university, is the univesity of life,.
I have had the pleasure of playing with many very good musicians,none of whom had a degree, but they all had one thing in common, they enjoyed their music.This came across in their playing they were never too worried about how many twiddles they were twiddlingthey just enjoyed themselves.
   last night on tg4 there was a programme about KittyHayes[west clare anglo player]she played with a stately simplicity that was refreshing to hear., an ordinary person without a degree who played musically. you can have all the degrees on the compass ,but if you havent got alove of music your playing will reflect just that.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST,Auldtimer
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 12:42 PM

I have heard too many degree holding "traditional" performers who just play by numbers. Note perfect, maybe, but shallow, souless, pale and uninteresting. But then what do I know, I don't have a degree on informed opinion forming, collating and diseminating.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 12:49 PM

Ian is playing guitar in the Katyryn Tickell band as well as 422.
Fay Heild is one of the Witches of Elswick amongst other things.
I am not sure how many others about are graduates of the Newcastle course.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: s&r
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 01:00 PM

I am fortunate to know a number of young people who have invested huge effort in folk music. I believe that the work involved should be recognised and treated as any academic skill. No one would question a degree in music, nor in classical or baroque, nor in fine art - recognise the learning and effort involved

Stu

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 01:05 PM

I must admit to having doubts but I do suspect they stem more from some sort of "inbuilt prejudice" (ie that's not how you learn folk, etc.) than anything else.

As luck would have it, earlier this year I met someone in a session who will now have just started this course. It will be the first time I've had a sort of chance to see a "before, during and after product" (naming a well known player who has attended the course gives me no clue what the course itself might have done for them). I will be interested to find out how it goes.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Anne Lister
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 01:29 PM

There is also a degree course in Leeds (which my godson Matt Crum has followed, and graduated from this summer) which includes folk and trad music. He's had a splendid, wide-ranging experience on his degree course which would be as useful to him as (if not more than) my largely medieval French degree. I do use mine to some extent and I'm sure he'll use his. He's now gigging with various bands including Peeping Tom and teaching music as well.
Not sure what the problem is ... I don't think you *need* a degree in folk music, or music generally, any more than you *need* a degree in anything else. Some graduates will be fine musicians and others not, just as some of my peers could speak fluent and well accented French on graduation and others not. But while there is a proliferation in degrees of highly dubious worth in the workplace (such as the infamous Media Studies...and there are plenty more of even quainter specialisms) I don't see there's any problem in finding the academic content to make a folk music degree worthwhile.
Does it make a musician a better musician? Probably not, but why worry? The gigs will go to the people that the event organisers want to book, whether or not they have degrees, surely?

Anne

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 01:46 PM

Ian Stephenson has been quoted as an example of what the course turns out(Kathryn Tickell band, etc). One might cite Julian Sutton as well(I bwekieve he falls in the same category, course and band). Trouble is(see my previous post) what does that prove? They were both wonderful musicians before they went on the course. The question is, did they get better when they were on the course? Or, to be more precise, did they get even more better than they would have done in three years of ordinary life, whether as professional musicians or part-timers?

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Bloke in the Corner
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 02:01 PM

What? Are you MAD? Suggesting that folk music needs for some reason to be kept 'real' by being learned completely informally? Not so long ago there was a real danger of traditional music from the British Isles effectively dying outside C# House. Go to any session in this country, you will probably be playing with middle aged men- probably no-one young, no-one female. Anything which brings the tradition forward is to be welcomed, and to have a good number of YOUNG PEOPLE - YES, YOUNG PEOPLE IN THEIR TEENS AND EARLY TWENTIES - playing and showing virtuosity and dedication is the best possible hope for the music we love existing far into the 21st century. Don't put up daft arguments about not needing degrees to play well, fall on your knees and thank your God that the course exists. And if you ever get to play with these young folk, you will find out how good they are! Here endeth....

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: shepherdlass
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 02:02 PM

I'd have thought the main advantage of doing the degree is that it opens up new avenues of enquiry. Rather than simply learning a tune, you have the time and tutors available (yes, they're there in the non-academic world too,but isn't it nice to have them readily accessible?) to help you hear it in lots of different ways and to understand more about how and why these different styles evolved. Then you can adapt your own way of playing if you want to ... if you don't want to, then I'm sure that's no problem either.

The churning out of a "house" style might be a concern, but you hear that same worry raised about jazz courses too. The truly exceptional players usually find their own ways of expression despite going through exactly the same training as the soundalikes.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: s&r
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 02:07 PM

Well said bloke

Stu

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: oggie
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 02:09 PM

If you click on the 'What skills will I learn?' button on the course page you'll discover that the key skills are those of most 'specialist' degree courses, communication, IT, teamwork etc. The difference is the vehicle for the learning is folk music (rather than Sports Studies, Mixed Media Studies etc). Many of us with degrees do not uese our degree subject professionally, or change careers later on.

My feeling is that it's as valid a way to spend three years as any other. The question will be whether as student debt soars and the horror stories of £25,000 to get a degree it will keep it's appeal, but the same could be said of many other subjects - would I have spent 3 years getting a degree in Economic History with that kind of price tag on it? Not sure.

All the best

oggie

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: BB
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 03:24 PM

I don't know a lot about the Newcastle degree course, and I haven't time right now to look it up, but I am aware that there is considerable variety in the music and song that is coming out of it.

I also know that the students are being made aware of the traditional performers - song and music - which they may not have had access to or regarded as important before they went on the course.

Having talked to Damien O'Kane of Crosscurrent, before he went on the course he didn't even know that English traditional music existed - he does now!

Vic Gammon is now in charge of the course, and I'm sure that many of the concerns that a great number of us had were concerns which he shared - personally I trust him to do the best for the music as well as for the students and the university.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 03:52 PM

I think it is capable of advancing knowledge of folk music (and you all know how I think that is defined - and for the purposes of this post "music" includes song) of a range of cultures, and so long as that does not lead to the subordination of British music (it's a British course, I'd expect an American equivalent to concentrate on American folk music, nodding to the British music that went over there to become American) to other music then I think that is good.

It is likely to lead to more performance and interpretation of such music, and that is good, and with luck it will not lead to fossilisation, as I have heard it said that Eistedfodds (sp?) did for Welsh arts.

It's a bit like studying Roman law in order better to understand English law, which I didn't do, but I did study American copyright law in order to gain insights that might be useful in UK copyright law.

We need to know where the music came from in order to appreciate where it may go.

Of course it would also be interesting to study the effect of American folk music (including, for this purpose, blues) and singer-songwriter music on later British music, and on our interpretations of British folk music - the use of harmony is largely audibly different.

The big worry will be if the accountants get hold of it and reduce it to a profit centre, or if someone from the music industry gets hold of it and narrows it down to what the music industry wants (I know one allegedly academic institution where most law courses are run by policemen, which really makes me wonder...)

I think I'm for it. I'm all for proper academic degrees. A degree should not be for academic gain, but about learning, and learning to learn. I'd worry if the emphasis became too heavily on the quality of performance: some singers (not, I hasten to add, by and large, singers of folk music) have been spectacularly stupid.

I'd worry even more if it became as stupid as the propsed new science GCSEs being widely condemned as "More suitable for the pub than the classroom" - although in the case of folk music perhaps it ought to be suitable for the pub as well.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 04:12 PM

Prosaic though it may be, I go with my friend Bloke's polemic. My only complaint is that we don't see the student we sent off to Newcastle any more.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 04:57 PM

Bloke's polemic? If folk music "needs" the university to keep it alive, as Bloke so eloquently implies, perhaps it's time to let the folk music we know die a peaceful death. The world changes; things move on.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 05:40 PM

and yet when a suggestion was made about examinations; similiar to those run by comhaltas, to be run by the efdss,there was alot of negative comment.
if newcastle university can employ suitable people such as Vic Gammon,its rather sad that efdss cant or dont consider it their remit to do likewise.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST,bobcat
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 06:26 PM

Devils Interval are at the Grove , Leeds on Friday..come and see for yourselves!!

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: johnadams
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 06:35 PM

Someone calling himself Captain Birdseye wrote:

"if newcastle university can employ suitable people such as Vic Gammon,its rather sad that efdss cant or dont consider it their remit to do likewise."

Why would the efdss want to employ an academic like Vic Gammon? They are not a university. They are involved with publishing and resourcing.

Johnny Adams

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Rowan
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 12:55 AM

Captain Birdseye also wrote about having all the degrees on the campus (yeah! I know he said compass!) not making the possessor necessarily a worthy practitioner. It's a longstanding problem. You can get a degree in education and be a woeful teacher, a degree in almost anything and still be inadequate in the practising sense. In my experience of instructing, teaching, training, coaching etc I've noticed that the competent practitioner is usually the better for a degree (if they became seriously engaged in the curriculum) because of the insights provided. It's harder for a graduate to become a practitioner unless they then approach the material with high engagement and energy.

But the degree can make them much better conversationalists while driving taxis and carrying the practitioners between gigs.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 01:53 AM

The Archive Of Folk Song at the Library Of Congress here in the U.S.A. was almost a holy place to me. Going there was practically a pilgrimage. I have a framed photo I took of the old sign on the door of the place on the wall in front of me right now. The work done there---collecting the ballads and songs before they disappeared----was so important to me, personally, that I felt rather diminished when the venerable Archive was put into something called the Archive Of Folk Culture. I guess it's nice to "collect" information on what different ethnic groups might've done to clean their teeth through the ages before we had Colgate paste, but somehow knowing their many trivial pursuits doesn't hit me emotionally like hearing Emery DeNoyer sing his lumber camp ballads.

Maybe I'm just an archaic relic of another era, but truthfully, I did prefer the old paradigm.

It was the degree, that I never got, that gave credibility to how I was making my living. My thanks go out to old friend Joe Hickerson for wearing all of his folk hats so admirably.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 04:13 AM

Whilst I was thinking about the course in Newcastle I was thinking in more general terms. I'm a firm believer that a university education is an end in itself and not necessarily relevent to ones future career. So as long as academic standards are maintained any course is okay by me.

My main 'fears' would be that the universities would end up promoting a right way to do the music and every other way is wrong. (It's a bit like Captain Birdseye's comment about the desireability or otherwise of competition: competition leads to improvement but this improvement is selected by the judge.) The other would be a single, homogenised, tradition.

BTW I've seen the Devil's Interval a couple of times and I really like them.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 04:18 AM

You mentioned Sam Pirt as going on the Folk degree he did not.Whilst I have nothing against the folk degree we are in danger of losing regional identities and regional interaction my daughters played with some young muscians who went of to newcastle to do the degree never to return they are the only young ones in our area treading a lonley furror of keeping the tradition alive, the degree course is good for the North East bad for the Souith West

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: breezy
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 04:23 AM

Guess there could be a few nominations for honarary degrees

Even postumous ones maybe

Ron Hynes has one from the Uni of Newfoundland


'We need roots'

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: johnadams
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 04:28 AM

Dazbo:

Surely a university degree such as at Newcastle is a 'hothouse' just like an arts school.

People who attend arts schools are often told what's right, wrong, good or bad but in the end it's only lecturer's opinions and the artists, after discussions and experimentation and development of techniques, go on to do what they came there to do in the first place - or something different.


If all my students did only what I suggested or demonstrated I'd be thinking I had failed. It's the ones who prove me wrong or expand to new glories who are the successes. I'm there to teach them how to think.

The lecturers at Newcastle are the varied bunch that you might expect on any course (I live with one of them and know lots of the others) and even argue amongst themselves about what's 'right and wrong, good and bad' so I don't think there's much danger of a unified opinion on how the students should do it, and the students will do it their own way anyway.

Johnny Adams

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST,Gadaffi
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 04:35 AM

Since the daughter of a friend of my family is doing the Trad course at Newcastle, and my daughter is up there doing a Fine Arts degree, my comments can be viewed as biassed.

That said, I believe that anything that will produce a rising generation interested and committed to the future of Folk and Traditional Music can only be a good thing. The thought that Vic Gammon and/or Sandra Kerr might result in cloning graduates with a common agenda is rather silly. Guest lecturers such as Richard Thompson are invited to make a contribution. At the Martin Carthy interview at Sidmouth this year, the story was told how a younger Emily Portman asked Shirley Collins at a Folk South-West workshop, to borrow a recording she played of Pop Maynard because the former was besotted by his singing. The story was very touching, but it showed one example of an enquiring mind at work. Absolutely wonderful, and not a Geordie within hearing! It has also brought out the local boy in Jim Causley, now captain of his Devon wassailers, and I noticed jamming in with the Pixies at Towersey this year.

If I have one reservation to make about the course on offer is that it doesn't seem to foster the next generation of Folk entrepreneurs, and all levels of engagement are needed if this music is to flourish within the foreseeable future. I have the comment from my 19 year old Newcastle undergraduate that Sidmouth this year was perceived as fifty-somethings trying to put on events that young people ought to be interested in. It's not just the quality of the performer you book - it's the ambience provided in which they perform - now there's a dimension younger people understand which we oldies can't get our heads around! There was talk of 'shadowing' by younger people, but I'm not aware that it happened. There is the need for a business studies unit on such courses so these people can get their heads around dealing with local and district councils, fire officers, the media, licensing, arts bodies, possible sponsors, agents, etc. etc. - then, of course, there are so many artistic considerations to be made, to the benefit of themselves, their own careers, and the wider Folk fraternity.

I have loved this music ever since I was a teeneager, and thirty-five years later still want to impart that love and sense of fun. However, younger people have their own perception of the same thing and must be allowed to explore and utilise it in their own way. I welcome the Folk Degree course as one avenue to this end, moreso because it can only raise standards across the board. I wish all the Newcastle students well, and look forward to welcoming them at Sidmouth FolkWeek and elsewhere in years to come.

George

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 04:37 AM

We need to know where the music came from in order to appreciate where it may go

"Without our stories and our songs, how will we know where we come from?"

I'd jump at the chance to go on the course, myself, but I'd need to win the lottery to do that :-(

It's a pity there aren't more universities following Newcastle's lead.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 04:56 AM

I too am biased because my daughter was at the Liverpool Institute of Performing Arts where she did a degree in Arts Management. There is a similar one at Leicester De Montfort I believe.

She has been fortunate because she worked for Mrs. Casey both in the office and at festivals (Sidmouth and Towersey) both as a volunteer and as a paid worker and thus when it came to applying for a job had both qualifications and experience.

She is now Assistant Director of a festival which books a wide variety of artists including folk/roots, and gets paid for doing it.

Chance to plug it.......here
But I understand the emphasis on the Newcastle course is on performance, and I suppose you can´t do everything.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 04:56 AM

Sorry, that was a bad link. Apologies.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Black Diamond
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 05:04 AM

Ive seen Devils Interval twice. I thought they were very good technically,they got all the right notes etc, but there was no "soul" or warmth and I didnt feel as if I had had an "uplifting" experience or "emotionally touched" by anything they performed. I would not be bothered about seeing them again.

Ive seen 422 twice, and came away thanking God I had lived to see them - so energetic, so warm and empathic with the audience and cant wait to see them again.

I understand from info in these threads, that one or two of them did the degee, and all of Devils Interval did the degree - correct me if Im wrong there.
so the conclsuion based on these few facts is as has also been stated in this thread - if you are a good musician, you will be a good musician, if not then all the degrees in China wont make you one.
But again, like Dazbo says , a degree is a degree, there to get people to think, not to make money.
This is aa very difficult subject - it makes my head spin!!

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 05:48 AM

John Adams, as I said I was trying not to be specific about the course at Newcastle but in these types of course in general. From what you've said (and I've heard from others) the current course at Newcastle seems to be in very good hands. My fears, as I termed them, were about how things might develop in the future rather than at the moment.

Your comment in the first sentences though comparing it to an Art School: there have been many reports over the years about the quality of teaching and what is (or is not) taught in art school that does appear to me to be trying to impose the 'Right Way'. (Admittedly I have no first or secondhand experience of Art Schools.) Thankfully, many students (as you say) do learn to think for themselves but I can't help thinking that in stasifying the school's 'Right Way' in order to pass their exams and graduate, must rub off on them to a greater or lesser extent.

My other 'fear' though was that in bringing undergraduates from all over the country the course may smooth out the differences in traditions. Is this being seen as a 'problem' and if so how is it being addressed? Or are they actively trying to teach (or at least be familiar with) the traditions from where the undergraduates come from?

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 06:00 AM

Re the concerns over regional styles, the availaibilty of recorded music is and still will be the biggest factor there.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Tootler
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 06:32 AM

For more information on the Newcastle degree, look here for information on the general approach and course philosophy and here for a detailed breakdown of the full degree, which is a four year course, BTW. This should address the criticism that was made about a business studies module. One is available as an option, as is teaching as well.

I go to the Folkworks Caedmon classes at the Sage in Gateshead and have been tutored by a number of them, either as the regular tutor for a class or when they have stood in when the regular tutor was absent, and have been impressed both by their musicianship and by their general approach to we strugglers in the classes. All that I have come across have individual styles and I don't think that the degree has knocked that out of them. What it has done, I suspect, is both to broaden their horizons and to deepen their understanding of the music and its context.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 07:15 AM

TO JOHN ADAMS.The reason why efdss might want to employ someone like Vic Gammon,is that there remit is promoting traditional dance and song, and this is a way other than publishing and resourcing that it could be done.
In Ireland Comhaltas[ who are the equivalent body to EFDSS] do this through an examination system[ I have mixed opinions about it but overall think its better than not doing anything at all]Efdss used to do this and perhaps with the correct examiners,might consider doing it again. Dick Miles.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 07:46 AM

sorry, I dont think efdss used to do this,but it might be woerth considering .

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST,Scotus (minus cookie)
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 09:32 AM

Way further up this thread someone said that the Newcastle Degree was the only such one in the UK. I think that's a bit insulting to the RSAMD (Glasgow)Degree in Scots Music, which I think pre-dates the Newcastle one. The RSAMD programme has produced some highly regarded traditional musicians as well as linking to a teaching qualification.

Jack

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 09:40 AM

In #2 I said that the Newcastle degree was the only undergraduate trad music course in England. I also pointed out that the equivalent (more or less) courses in Glasgow, Limerick, Stockholm and Helsinki had been running longer and regretted that England lagged behind, but had been, for the past five years, catching up.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Mitch the Bass
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 09:53 AM

How about the degree in Traditional Music with Folklore studies at Sheffield University http://www.shef.ac.uk/prospectus/2007/coursedetail.php?courseid=324 - this isn't a brilliant description as it applies to all courses in the Music department.

However - a friend has recently completed this course. It's not so focussed on performance as the Newcastle course but certainly qualifies as an undergradute course in traditional music in England.

Mitch
Derby, UK

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 10:00 AM

OK to clarify even further: at the time when the Newcastle BMus started, it was the first undergraduate course of its type in England.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 10:15 AM

"Re the concerns over regional styles, the availability of recorded music is and still will be the biggest factor there."

Re: the concerns over dinosaurs. The availability of fossilized bones is and will be the biggest factor there.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 10:40 AM

I think I didn't express myelf clearly enough. I know music can be preserved by recording it...

What I meant though was with recorded music, we no longer "live" in isolated regions and the music becomes more "genericc English, Irish, etc." as a result.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 12:01 PM

But to my mind, that's the problem. Rather than having any number of distinct local traditions, which are expressions of local people and culture, you have the big generics, if I may call them that, and the music that perfectly suited local dances and fairs, or whatever, loses its individuality, under the pressure or attraction of outside norms. Yes, "musical standards" may be elevated - but who sets these standards? what is their purpose? I think we need to consider the question of what happens to "folk music" when it is removed from it's "folk" context.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 12:20 PM

Interesting the course Scotus mentions is in SCOTS music. Should there be others in English, Welsh, and Northern Irish? (and Manx and Channel Islands...)

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: johnadams
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 01:05 PM

Dick Miles wrote:

>TO JOHN ADAMS.The reason why efdss might want to employ someone like Vic Gammon,is >that there remit is promoting traditional dance and song, and this is a way other than >publishing and resourcing that it could be done.

Hello Dick,

What? Running a degree? The efdss is not an educational establishment. It has an education officer who works to SUPPORT educational establishments. I'm not clear what Vic or his equivalent would actually do for the efdss on a day to day basis.

Vic already contributes to the work of the efdss in that he sits on the editorial panel for the Folk Music Journal along with several other academic heavyweights. Why would the efdss need an academic actually on it's staff?

>In Ireland Comhaltas[ who are the equivalent body to EFDSS] do this through an >examination system[ I have mixed opinions about it but overall think its better than not >doing anything at all]Efdss used to do this and perhaps with the correct examiners,might >consider doing it again. Dick Miles

I don't know anything about the Comhaltas but it can't be assumed that there is a direct equivalence between the two organisations. CCE do what they do and efdss do what they do. You are right when you correct yourself in saying that efdss don't examine. Whether or not they should is open for debate. If you have any views on this or any other aspect of the efdss policy, please feel free to express your view in writing to the chairman at the address below, remembering to quote your membership number on all correspondence.

J

Address:
The English Folk Dance & Song Society
Cecil Sharp House
2, Regent's Park Rd
London
NW1 7AY

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: johnadams
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 01:24 PM

Someone called memyself wrote:

"But to my mind, that's the problem. Rather than having any number of distinct local traditions, which are expressions of local people and culture, you have the big generics, if I may call them that, and the music that perfectly suited local dances and fairs, or whatever, loses its individuality, under the pressure or attraction of outside norms. Yes, "musical standards" may be elevated - but who sets these standards? what is their purpose? I think we need to consider the question of what happens to "folk music" when it is removed from it's "folk" context."

Agreed. At the other end of the process, we should consider what it was before the Victorians or whoever so snobbily termed it 'Folk Music'. The very word 'folk' has been a problem for years. (If we're not careful we'll get into the 'horse' argument here). I'd prefer to think of it as the Devon travellers do. When the Orchard Family have sung their country and western songs and done their step dancing, they call on granny, Amy Birch, to sing one of the 'old' songs.

Perhaps that's it then - a degree in "Old Music' (and perform it how you like!).

J

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 02:07 PM

Yep, memeself one can view it as a problem but thats the way things are. My point is I don't think the degree course will have as much of an impact as recorded music already has and will continue to have.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 02:09 PM

Dear john ,I am now a member of comhaltas as I live in ireland. I cannot afford to be a member of EFDSS as well,.
that does not mean that I am not concerned about the EFDSS [rather as I might be about an elderly relative]perhaps, as I am excluded as I am no longer a member, you might bear what I have said in mind .THE COMHALTAS system of eXamination is preferable to competitions and operates very much like, the classical board of music exams, and seems reasonably successful. Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Bert
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 02:21 PM

Gawd, why the hell didn't they have something like that when I was studying engineering. It would have been much more fun that studying Macaulay's Method and Castigliano's Theorem.

I had to study Folk Music and Dancing in my spare time.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: BB
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 02:43 PM

I'm sure many of us echo that sentiment, Bert!

Dick, quite apart from whether it is appropriate for EFDSS to employ someone such as Vic, I doubt that they could afford him! Unlike the universities, EFDSS gets no significant government funding, and - correct me if I'm wrong, John - what it does get is from the Sports Council, and therefore has to be used more or less specifically on dance. And please don't let us get into a discussion on government funding for universities here!

In any case, I really think that any discussion on EFDSS and examinations is a red herring here, and has been discussed at length on other threads - so let's leave it there.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 02:56 PM

I seem to remember Ian Campbell was doing such a degree. Anybody know how he got on?

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 03:12 PM

Countess Richard,

You expressed yourself absolutely clearly (would that others did).

I was taking issue with FolkieDave when he wrote:

"Sorry, I did not mean to exclude other folk music degrees from that. But the Newcastle one is the only one in the UK."

Jack

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: johnadams
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 07:41 PM

Dick Miles wrote:

"Dear john ,I am now a member of comhaltas as I live in ireland. I cannot afford to be a member of EFDSS as well."


Dick, you pays your money and you takes your choice!

"that does not mean that I am not concerned about the EFDSS [rather as I might be about an elderly relative]perhaps, as I am excluded as I am no longer a member, you might bear what I have said in mind ."

That sounds as though efdss has excluded YOU. Haven't you excluded yourself by the choice you've made? It's your choice but if you want a voice in an organisation, surely you have to be in it? ... and thank you for concern but we can cross the road under our own steam.   :-)

"THE COMHALTAS system of eXamination is preferable to competitions and operates very much like, the classical board of music exams, and seems reasonably successful. Dick Miles"

Personally, I don't see folk music, song or dance as examinable or competitive. It just 'is'.

Johnny Adams

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Peace
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 07:43 PM

That seems a bit like saying the human mind--thought process--isn't examinable.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: johnadams
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 08:04 PM

From that point of view, everything is examinable - even your navel!

:-)

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 11:35 PM

Dear john, has it occured to you that the reason traditional music is stronger in Ireland than England, is partly a result of comhaltas aexamination and competitons. COMHALTAS was originally formed in 1951, because the irish tradition was in danger of extinction,as a result of COMHALTAS ACTIVIES [EXAMS COMPETITIONS]the tradition is very much stronger,
anyone that runs an organisation,or business such as[ efdss] needs to look at other successful models such as COMHALTAS and analyse their reasons for success.
apologies to BB, but as efdss aim is to promote dance and song and jOHNADAMS is a representative of efdss,please forgive the red herring.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: johnadams
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 03:51 AM

Dick,

No it hasn't occured to me and I think it's a very simplistic view which neglects the far reaching effect of the Irish diaspora. Some people say that Irish tradition is already dead because of Comhaltas. I don't subscribe to that point of view and wouldn't argue around it as I haven't enough knowledge, but I can see where they're coming from.

I am a member of the efdss and sit on the National Council but because I am not posting on their behalf, I am not attaching their name to my personal views. As in the past, where I speak for the society, I identify myself as doing so.

Thus, I don't think you can imply that I'm being disingenuous.

Johnny A

(I'm getting bored with this).

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 04:07 AM

yeh, just what we need a multi choice exam, to see if we're orthodox enough to be part of the tradition.

just in case someone out there still had a mild interest in folk music, that should finish the bugger off.

The Irish have been fighting a thousand years to stay as they are - undiluted and unbuggered about by us English.

we, on the other hand, are a mongrel race. undisciplined, unfettered, unconvinced by pretentensions of anyone pretending to be the true traditional music of England.

Personally I hope the bogus assylum seekers break into the citadel of our folk clubs and chuck out any Daily Mail readers they find there.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 04:36 AM

Comhaltas is hardly perfect, and has a lot of critics, not least within Ireland.

Try googling for Comhaltas+criticis

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 11:53 AM

yes I am critical of them as well .
BUT I think the examination system is an improvement on competitions. and clearly the examination system at newcastle is working well, as is the scottish one.
however it still doesnt mean that someone who has passed an exam, is a better musician than someone who has never bothered with the exam or[degree system]. Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Tootler
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 07:49 PM

The publicity Newcastle put out only claims to be the first such course in England.

However, when I was still working full time in a University I had a good look on UCAS' website and did not find anything that seemed equivalent in the UK, RSAMD notwithstanding. This seems to be born out by a couple of Scots students (now graduates) I have met who said they came to Newcastle, at least in part, because they could not find anything equivalent in Scotland.

For this reason, I am not so sure that Newcastle are as far behind the rest of the UK as some claim, though they were certainly later than Ireland or the Scandanavian countries.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST,An Insider
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 04:39 AM

Well for a start you don't have to worry about students forgetting the musical styles of where they come from because as far as most of them are concerned, where they 'come from' has no traditional music. most of the students are English and most of them are only interested in playing Irish music. Or at least fast celtic tunes. students interested in English traditional music are very rare which is ironic when people go on about how wonderful it is to have such a course in this country. There is of course the Glasgow course which is far older and focuses purely on Scottish traditional music which has interesting resulted in a large influx of students from Scotland opting for the Newcastle degree course so that they can play Irish music as well. Vic Gammon taking over as course leader will help on the English side of things but he's got his work cut out for him and as his opinions are generally quite old fashioned and purist and a lot of the young students won't be interested in what he has to say. There is a strong Northumbrian bias on the course too, so Southern English music has quite a tough corner to fight. i hope this veiw point has been helpful

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 07:04 AM

Am I right the course is heavily subscribed and a lot of applicants get turned down? Where do they go? Maybe one of the other universites offering things like "music technology" courses (eg Christchurch, in Kent - or better still one in "Copper territory") ought to offer an alternative.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST,Dave (Bridge)
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 09:14 AM

Students on the newcastle course come from a wide variety of places, America, Sweden, France and of course UK. Once a month students are featured at the Bridge Folk Club in Newcastle where they have to do 'spots' of fifteen minutes duration and have to perform not just play/sing their material. Six students solo or group, counting as one spot, are selected or volunteer and have to observe protocols and prepare their sets. They are all very talented and I think the future of the folk scene is in good hands

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 06:16 PM

"where they 'come from' has no traditional music. most of the students are English... i hope this veiw point has been helpful"

Not in the slightest, you tosser.