Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 06:16 PM

"where they 'come from' has no traditional music. most of the students are English... i hope this veiw point has been helpful"

Not in the slightest, you tosser.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST,Dave (Bridge)
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 09:14 AM

Students on the newcastle course come from a wide variety of places, America, Sweden, France and of course UK. Once a month students are featured at the Bridge Folk Club in Newcastle where they have to do 'spots' of fifteen minutes duration and have to perform not just play/sing their material. Six students solo or group, counting as one spot, are selected or volunteer and have to observe protocols and prepare their sets. They are all very talented and I think the future of the folk scene is in good hands

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 07:04 AM

Am I right the course is heavily subscribed and a lot of applicants get turned down? Where do they go? Maybe one of the other universites offering things like "music technology" courses (eg Christchurch, in Kent - or better still one in "Copper territory") ought to offer an alternative.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST,An Insider
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 04:39 AM

Well for a start you don't have to worry about students forgetting the musical styles of where they come from because as far as most of them are concerned, where they 'come from' has no traditional music. most of the students are English and most of them are only interested in playing Irish music. Or at least fast celtic tunes. students interested in English traditional music are very rare which is ironic when people go on about how wonderful it is to have such a course in this country. There is of course the Glasgow course which is far older and focuses purely on Scottish traditional music which has interesting resulted in a large influx of students from Scotland opting for the Newcastle degree course so that they can play Irish music as well. Vic Gammon taking over as course leader will help on the English side of things but he's got his work cut out for him and as his opinions are generally quite old fashioned and purist and a lot of the young students won't be interested in what he has to say. There is a strong Northumbrian bias on the course too, so Southern English music has quite a tough corner to fight. i hope this veiw point has been helpful

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Tootler
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 07:49 PM

The publicity Newcastle put out only claims to be the first such course in England.

However, when I was still working full time in a University I had a good look on UCAS' website and did not find anything that seemed equivalent in the UK, RSAMD notwithstanding. This seems to be born out by a couple of Scots students (now graduates) I have met who said they came to Newcastle, at least in part, because they could not find anything equivalent in Scotland.

For this reason, I am not so sure that Newcastle are as far behind the rest of the UK as some claim, though they were certainly later than Ireland or the Scandanavian countries.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 11:53 AM

yes I am critical of them as well .
BUT I think the examination system is an improvement on competitions. and clearly the examination system at newcastle is working well, as is the scottish one.
however it still doesnt mean that someone who has passed an exam, is a better musician than someone who has never bothered with the exam or[degree system]. Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 04:36 AM

Comhaltas is hardly perfect, and has a lot of critics, not least within Ireland.

Try googling for Comhaltas+criticis

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 04:07 AM

yeh, just what we need a multi choice exam, to see if we're orthodox enough to be part of the tradition.

just in case someone out there still had a mild interest in folk music, that should finish the bugger off.

The Irish have been fighting a thousand years to stay as they are - undiluted and unbuggered about by us English.

we, on the other hand, are a mongrel race. undisciplined, unfettered, unconvinced by pretentensions of anyone pretending to be the true traditional music of England.

Personally I hope the bogus assylum seekers break into the citadel of our folk clubs and chuck out any Daily Mail readers they find there.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: johnadams
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 03:51 AM

Dick,

No it hasn't occured to me and I think it's a very simplistic view which neglects the far reaching effect of the Irish diaspora. Some people say that Irish tradition is already dead because of Comhaltas. I don't subscribe to that point of view and wouldn't argue around it as I haven't enough knowledge, but I can see where they're coming from.

I am a member of the efdss and sit on the National Council but because I am not posting on their behalf, I am not attaching their name to my personal views. As in the past, where I speak for the society, I identify myself as doing so.

Thus, I don't think you can imply that I'm being disingenuous.

Johnny A

(I'm getting bored with this).

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 11:35 PM

Dear john, has it occured to you that the reason traditional music is stronger in Ireland than England, is partly a result of comhaltas aexamination and competitons. COMHALTAS was originally formed in 1951, because the irish tradition was in danger of extinction,as a result of COMHALTAS ACTIVIES [EXAMS COMPETITIONS]the tradition is very much stronger,
anyone that runs an organisation,or business such as[ efdss] needs to look at other successful models such as COMHALTAS and analyse their reasons for success.
apologies to BB, but as efdss aim is to promote dance and song and jOHNADAMS is a representative of efdss,please forgive the red herring.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: johnadams
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 08:04 PM

From that point of view, everything is examinable - even your navel!

:-)

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Peace
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 07:43 PM

That seems a bit like saying the human mind--thought process--isn't examinable.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: johnadams
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 07:41 PM

Dick Miles wrote:

"Dear john ,I am now a member of comhaltas as I live in ireland. I cannot afford to be a member of EFDSS as well."


Dick, you pays your money and you takes your choice!

"that does not mean that I am not concerned about the EFDSS [rather as I might be about an elderly relative]perhaps, as I am excluded as I am no longer a member, you might bear what I have said in mind ."

That sounds as though efdss has excluded YOU. Haven't you excluded yourself by the choice you've made? It's your choice but if you want a voice in an organisation, surely you have to be in it? ... and thank you for concern but we can cross the road under our own steam.   :-)

"THE COMHALTAS system of eXamination is preferable to competitions and operates very much like, the classical board of music exams, and seems reasonably successful. Dick Miles"

Personally, I don't see folk music, song or dance as examinable or competitive. It just 'is'.

Johnny Adams

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 03:12 PM

Countess Richard,

You expressed yourself absolutely clearly (would that others did).

I was taking issue with FolkieDave when he wrote:

"Sorry, I did not mean to exclude other folk music degrees from that. But the Newcastle one is the only one in the UK."

Jack

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 02:56 PM

I seem to remember Ian Campbell was doing such a degree. Anybody know how he got on?

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: BB
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 02:43 PM

I'm sure many of us echo that sentiment, Bert!

Dick, quite apart from whether it is appropriate for EFDSS to employ someone such as Vic, I doubt that they could afford him! Unlike the universities, EFDSS gets no significant government funding, and - correct me if I'm wrong, John - what it does get is from the Sports Council, and therefore has to be used more or less specifically on dance. And please don't let us get into a discussion on government funding for universities here!

In any case, I really think that any discussion on EFDSS and examinations is a red herring here, and has been discussed at length on other threads - so let's leave it there.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Bert
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 02:21 PM

Gawd, why the hell didn't they have something like that when I was studying engineering. It would have been much more fun that studying Macaulay's Method and Castigliano's Theorem.

I had to study Folk Music and Dancing in my spare time.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 02:09 PM

Dear john ,I am now a member of comhaltas as I live in ireland. I cannot afford to be a member of EFDSS as well,.
that does not mean that I am not concerned about the EFDSS [rather as I might be about an elderly relative]perhaps, as I am excluded as I am no longer a member, you might bear what I have said in mind .THE COMHALTAS system of eXamination is preferable to competitions and operates very much like, the classical board of music exams, and seems reasonably successful. Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 02:07 PM

Yep, memeself one can view it as a problem but thats the way things are. My point is I don't think the degree course will have as much of an impact as recorded music already has and will continue to have.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: johnadams
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 01:24 PM

Someone called memyself wrote:

"But to my mind, that's the problem. Rather than having any number of distinct local traditions, which are expressions of local people and culture, you have the big generics, if I may call them that, and the music that perfectly suited local dances and fairs, or whatever, loses its individuality, under the pressure or attraction of outside norms. Yes, "musical standards" may be elevated - but who sets these standards? what is their purpose? I think we need to consider the question of what happens to "folk music" when it is removed from it's "folk" context."

Agreed. At the other end of the process, we should consider what it was before the Victorians or whoever so snobbily termed it 'Folk Music'. The very word 'folk' has been a problem for years. (If we're not careful we'll get into the 'horse' argument here). I'd prefer to think of it as the Devon travellers do. When the Orchard Family have sung their country and western songs and done their step dancing, they call on granny, Amy Birch, to sing one of the 'old' songs.

Perhaps that's it then - a degree in "Old Music' (and perform it how you like!).

J

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: johnadams
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 01:05 PM

Dick Miles wrote:

>TO JOHN ADAMS.The reason why efdss might want to employ someone like Vic Gammon,is >that there remit is promoting traditional dance and song, and this is a way other than >publishing and resourcing that it could be done.

Hello Dick,

What? Running a degree? The efdss is not an educational establishment. It has an education officer who works to SUPPORT educational establishments. I'm not clear what Vic or his equivalent would actually do for the efdss on a day to day basis.

Vic already contributes to the work of the efdss in that he sits on the editorial panel for the Folk Music Journal along with several other academic heavyweights. Why would the efdss need an academic actually on it's staff?

>In Ireland Comhaltas[ who are the equivalent body to EFDSS] do this through an >examination system[ I have mixed opinions about it but overall think its better than not >doing anything at all]Efdss used to do this and perhaps with the correct examiners,might >consider doing it again. Dick Miles

I don't know anything about the Comhaltas but it can't be assumed that there is a direct equivalence between the two organisations. CCE do what they do and efdss do what they do. You are right when you correct yourself in saying that efdss don't examine. Whether or not they should is open for debate. If you have any views on this or any other aspect of the efdss policy, please feel free to express your view in writing to the chairman at the address below, remembering to quote your membership number on all correspondence.

J

Address:
The English Folk Dance & Song Society
Cecil Sharp House
2, Regent's Park Rd
London
NW1 7AY

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 12:20 PM

Interesting the course Scotus mentions is in SCOTS music. Should there be others in English, Welsh, and Northern Irish? (and Manx and Channel Islands...)

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 12:01 PM

But to my mind, that's the problem. Rather than having any number of distinct local traditions, which are expressions of local people and culture, you have the big generics, if I may call them that, and the music that perfectly suited local dances and fairs, or whatever, loses its individuality, under the pressure or attraction of outside norms. Yes, "musical standards" may be elevated - but who sets these standards? what is their purpose? I think we need to consider the question of what happens to "folk music" when it is removed from it's "folk" context.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 10:40 AM

I think I didn't express myelf clearly enough. I know music can be preserved by recording it...

What I meant though was with recorded music, we no longer "live" in isolated regions and the music becomes more "genericc English, Irish, etc." as a result.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 10:15 AM

"Re the concerns over regional styles, the availability of recorded music is and still will be the biggest factor there."

Re: the concerns over dinosaurs. The availability of fossilized bones is and will be the biggest factor there.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 10:00 AM

OK to clarify even further: at the time when the Newcastle BMus started, it was the first undergraduate course of its type in England.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Mitch the Bass
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 09:53 AM

How about the degree in Traditional Music with Folklore studies at Sheffield University http://www.shef.ac.uk/prospectus/2007/coursedetail.php?courseid=324 - this isn't a brilliant description as it applies to all courses in the Music department.

However - a friend has recently completed this course. It's not so focussed on performance as the Newcastle course but certainly qualifies as an undergradute course in traditional music in England.

Mitch
Derby, UK

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 09:40 AM

In #2 I said that the Newcastle degree was the only undergraduate trad music course in England. I also pointed out that the equivalent (more or less) courses in Glasgow, Limerick, Stockholm and Helsinki had been running longer and regretted that England lagged behind, but had been, for the past five years, catching up.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST,Scotus (minus cookie)
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 09:32 AM

Way further up this thread someone said that the Newcastle Degree was the only such one in the UK. I think that's a bit insulting to the RSAMD (Glasgow)Degree in Scots Music, which I think pre-dates the Newcastle one. The RSAMD programme has produced some highly regarded traditional musicians as well as linking to a teaching qualification.

Jack

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 07:46 AM

sorry, I dont think efdss used to do this,but it might be woerth considering .

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 07:15 AM

TO JOHN ADAMS.The reason why efdss might want to employ someone like Vic Gammon,is that there remit is promoting traditional dance and song, and this is a way other than publishing and resourcing that it could be done.
In Ireland Comhaltas[ who are the equivalent body to EFDSS] do this through an examination system[ I have mixed opinions about it but overall think its better than not doing anything at all]Efdss used to do this and perhaps with the correct examiners,might consider doing it again. Dick Miles.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Tootler
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 06:32 AM

For more information on the Newcastle degree, look here for information on the general approach and course philosophy and here for a detailed breakdown of the full degree, which is a four year course, BTW. This should address the criticism that was made about a business studies module. One is available as an option, as is teaching as well.

I go to the Folkworks Caedmon classes at the Sage in Gateshead and have been tutored by a number of them, either as the regular tutor for a class or when they have stood in when the regular tutor was absent, and have been impressed both by their musicianship and by their general approach to we strugglers in the classes. All that I have come across have individual styles and I don't think that the degree has knocked that out of them. What it has done, I suspect, is both to broaden their horizons and to deepen their understanding of the music and its context.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 06:00 AM

Re the concerns over regional styles, the availaibilty of recorded music is and still will be the biggest factor there.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 05:48 AM

John Adams, as I said I was trying not to be specific about the course at Newcastle but in these types of course in general. From what you've said (and I've heard from others) the current course at Newcastle seems to be in very good hands. My fears, as I termed them, were about how things might develop in the future rather than at the moment.

Your comment in the first sentences though comparing it to an Art School: there have been many reports over the years about the quality of teaching and what is (or is not) taught in art school that does appear to me to be trying to impose the 'Right Way'. (Admittedly I have no first or secondhand experience of Art Schools.) Thankfully, many students (as you say) do learn to think for themselves but I can't help thinking that in stasifying the school's 'Right Way' in order to pass their exams and graduate, must rub off on them to a greater or lesser extent.

My other 'fear' though was that in bringing undergraduates from all over the country the course may smooth out the differences in traditions. Is this being seen as a 'problem' and if so how is it being addressed? Or are they actively trying to teach (or at least be familiar with) the traditions from where the undergraduates come from?

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Black Diamond
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 05:04 AM

Ive seen Devils Interval twice. I thought they were very good technically,they got all the right notes etc, but there was no "soul" or warmth and I didnt feel as if I had had an "uplifting" experience or "emotionally touched" by anything they performed. I would not be bothered about seeing them again.

Ive seen 422 twice, and came away thanking God I had lived to see them - so energetic, so warm and empathic with the audience and cant wait to see them again.

I understand from info in these threads, that one or two of them did the degee, and all of Devils Interval did the degree - correct me if Im wrong there.
so the conclsuion based on these few facts is as has also been stated in this thread - if you are a good musician, you will be a good musician, if not then all the degrees in China wont make you one.
But again, like Dazbo says , a degree is a degree, there to get people to think, not to make money.
This is aa very difficult subject - it makes my head spin!!

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 04:56 AM

Sorry, that was a bad link. Apologies.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 04:56 AM

I too am biased because my daughter was at the Liverpool Institute of Performing Arts where she did a degree in Arts Management. There is a similar one at Leicester De Montfort I believe.

She has been fortunate because she worked for Mrs. Casey both in the office and at festivals (Sidmouth and Towersey) both as a volunteer and as a paid worker and thus when it came to applying for a job had both qualifications and experience.

She is now Assistant Director of a festival which books a wide variety of artists including folk/roots, and gets paid for doing it.

Chance to plug it.......here
But I understand the emphasis on the Newcastle course is on performance, and I suppose you can´t do everything.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 04:37 AM

We need to know where the music came from in order to appreciate where it may go

"Without our stories and our songs, how will we know where we come from?"

I'd jump at the chance to go on the course, myself, but I'd need to win the lottery to do that :-(

It's a pity there aren't more universities following Newcastle's lead.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST,Gadaffi
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 04:35 AM

Since the daughter of a friend of my family is doing the Trad course at Newcastle, and my daughter is up there doing a Fine Arts degree, my comments can be viewed as biassed.

That said, I believe that anything that will produce a rising generation interested and committed to the future of Folk and Traditional Music can only be a good thing. The thought that Vic Gammon and/or Sandra Kerr might result in cloning graduates with a common agenda is rather silly. Guest lecturers such as Richard Thompson are invited to make a contribution. At the Martin Carthy interview at Sidmouth this year, the story was told how a younger Emily Portman asked Shirley Collins at a Folk South-West workshop, to borrow a recording she played of Pop Maynard because the former was besotted by his singing. The story was very touching, but it showed one example of an enquiring mind at work. Absolutely wonderful, and not a Geordie within hearing! It has also brought out the local boy in Jim Causley, now captain of his Devon wassailers, and I noticed jamming in with the Pixies at Towersey this year.

If I have one reservation to make about the course on offer is that it doesn't seem to foster the next generation of Folk entrepreneurs, and all levels of engagement are needed if this music is to flourish within the foreseeable future. I have the comment from my 19 year old Newcastle undergraduate that Sidmouth this year was perceived as fifty-somethings trying to put on events that young people ought to be interested in. It's not just the quality of the performer you book - it's the ambience provided in which they perform - now there's a dimension younger people understand which we oldies can't get our heads around! There was talk of 'shadowing' by younger people, but I'm not aware that it happened. There is the need for a business studies unit on such courses so these people can get their heads around dealing with local and district councils, fire officers, the media, licensing, arts bodies, possible sponsors, agents, etc. etc. - then, of course, there are so many artistic considerations to be made, to the benefit of themselves, their own careers, and the wider Folk fraternity.

I have loved this music ever since I was a teeneager, and thirty-five years later still want to impart that love and sense of fun. However, younger people have their own perception of the same thing and must be allowed to explore and utilise it in their own way. I welcome the Folk Degree course as one avenue to this end, moreso because it can only raise standards across the board. I wish all the Newcastle students well, and look forward to welcoming them at Sidmouth FolkWeek and elsewhere in years to come.

George

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: johnadams
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 04:28 AM

Dazbo:

Surely a university degree such as at Newcastle is a 'hothouse' just like an arts school.

People who attend arts schools are often told what's right, wrong, good or bad but in the end it's only lecturer's opinions and the artists, after discussions and experimentation and development of techniques, go on to do what they came there to do in the first place - or something different.


If all my students did only what I suggested or demonstrated I'd be thinking I had failed. It's the ones who prove me wrong or expand to new glories who are the successes. I'm there to teach them how to think.

The lecturers at Newcastle are the varied bunch that you might expect on any course (I live with one of them and know lots of the others) and even argue amongst themselves about what's 'right and wrong, good and bad' so I don't think there's much danger of a unified opinion on how the students should do it, and the students will do it their own way anyway.

Johnny Adams

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: breezy
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 04:23 AM

Guess there could be a few nominations for honarary degrees

Even postumous ones maybe

Ron Hynes has one from the Uni of Newfoundland


'We need roots'

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 04:18 AM

You mentioned Sam Pirt as going on the Folk degree he did not.Whilst I have nothing against the folk degree we are in danger of losing regional identities and regional interaction my daughters played with some young muscians who went of to newcastle to do the degree never to return they are the only young ones in our area treading a lonley furror of keeping the tradition alive, the degree course is good for the North East bad for the Souith West

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 04:13 AM

Whilst I was thinking about the course in Newcastle I was thinking in more general terms. I'm a firm believer that a university education is an end in itself and not necessarily relevent to ones future career. So as long as academic standards are maintained any course is okay by me.

My main 'fears' would be that the universities would end up promoting a right way to do the music and every other way is wrong. (It's a bit like Captain Birdseye's comment about the desireability or otherwise of competition: competition leads to improvement but this improvement is selected by the judge.) The other would be a single, homogenised, tradition.

BTW I've seen the Devil's Interval a couple of times and I really like them.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 01:53 AM

The Archive Of Folk Song at the Library Of Congress here in the U.S.A. was almost a holy place to me. Going there was practically a pilgrimage. I have a framed photo I took of the old sign on the door of the place on the wall in front of me right now. The work done there---collecting the ballads and songs before they disappeared----was so important to me, personally, that I felt rather diminished when the venerable Archive was put into something called the Archive Of Folk Culture. I guess it's nice to "collect" information on what different ethnic groups might've done to clean their teeth through the ages before we had Colgate paste, but somehow knowing their many trivial pursuits doesn't hit me emotionally like hearing Emery DeNoyer sing his lumber camp ballads.

Maybe I'm just an archaic relic of another era, but truthfully, I did prefer the old paradigm.

It was the degree, that I never got, that gave credibility to how I was making my living. My thanks go out to old friend Joe Hickerson for wearing all of his folk hats so admirably.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Rowan
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 12:55 AM

Captain Birdseye also wrote about having all the degrees on the campus (yeah! I know he said compass!) not making the possessor necessarily a worthy practitioner. It's a longstanding problem. You can get a degree in education and be a woeful teacher, a degree in almost anything and still be inadequate in the practising sense. In my experience of instructing, teaching, training, coaching etc I've noticed that the competent practitioner is usually the better for a degree (if they became seriously engaged in the curriculum) because of the insights provided. It's harder for a graduate to become a practitioner unless they then approach the material with high engagement and energy.

But the degree can make them much better conversationalists while driving taxis and carrying the practitioners between gigs.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: johnadams
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 06:35 PM

Someone calling himself Captain Birdseye wrote:

"if newcastle university can employ suitable people such as Vic Gammon,its rather sad that efdss cant or dont consider it their remit to do likewise."

Why would the efdss want to employ an academic like Vic Gammon? They are not a university. They are involved with publishing and resourcing.

Johnny Adams

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST,bobcat
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 06:26 PM

Devils Interval are at the Grove , Leeds on Friday..come and see for yourselves!!

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 05:40 PM

and yet when a suggestion was made about examinations; similiar to those run by comhaltas, to be run by the efdss,there was alot of negative comment.
if newcastle university can employ suitable people such as Vic Gammon,its rather sad that efdss cant or dont consider it their remit to do likewise.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 04:57 PM

Bloke's polemic? If folk music "needs" the university to keep it alive, as Bloke so eloquently implies, perhaps it's time to let the folk music we know die a peaceful death. The world changes; things move on.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 04:12 PM

Prosaic though it may be, I go with my friend Bloke's polemic. My only complaint is that we don't see the student we sent off to Newcastle any more.