Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 09:40 AM

In #2 I said that the Newcastle degree was the only undergraduate trad music course in England. I also pointed out that the equivalent (more or less) courses in Glasgow, Limerick, Stockholm and Helsinki had been running longer and regretted that England lagged behind, but had been, for the past five years, catching up.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Mitch the Bass
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 09:53 AM

How about the degree in Traditional Music with Folklore studies at Sheffield University http://www.shef.ac.uk/prospectus/2007/coursedetail.php?courseid=324 - this isn't a brilliant description as it applies to all courses in the Music department.

However - a friend has recently completed this course. It's not so focussed on performance as the Newcastle course but certainly qualifies as an undergradute course in traditional music in England.

Mitch
Derby, UK

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 10:00 AM

OK to clarify even further: at the time when the Newcastle BMus started, it was the first undergraduate course of its type in England.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 10:15 AM

"Re the concerns over regional styles, the availability of recorded music is and still will be the biggest factor there."

Re: the concerns over dinosaurs. The availability of fossilized bones is and will be the biggest factor there.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 10:40 AM

I think I didn't express myelf clearly enough. I know music can be preserved by recording it...

What I meant though was with recorded music, we no longer "live" in isolated regions and the music becomes more "genericc English, Irish, etc." as a result.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 12:01 PM

But to my mind, that's the problem. Rather than having any number of distinct local traditions, which are expressions of local people and culture, you have the big generics, if I may call them that, and the music that perfectly suited local dances and fairs, or whatever, loses its individuality, under the pressure or attraction of outside norms. Yes, "musical standards" may be elevated - but who sets these standards? what is their purpose? I think we need to consider the question of what happens to "folk music" when it is removed from it's "folk" context.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 12:20 PM

Interesting the course Scotus mentions is in SCOTS music. Should there be others in English, Welsh, and Northern Irish? (and Manx and Channel Islands...)

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: johnadams
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 01:05 PM

Dick Miles wrote:

>TO JOHN ADAMS.The reason why efdss might want to employ someone like Vic Gammon,is >that there remit is promoting traditional dance and song, and this is a way other than >publishing and resourcing that it could be done.

Hello Dick,

What? Running a degree? The efdss is not an educational establishment. It has an education officer who works to SUPPORT educational establishments. I'm not clear what Vic or his equivalent would actually do for the efdss on a day to day basis.

Vic already contributes to the work of the efdss in that he sits on the editorial panel for the Folk Music Journal along with several other academic heavyweights. Why would the efdss need an academic actually on it's staff?

>In Ireland Comhaltas[ who are the equivalent body to EFDSS] do this through an >examination system[ I have mixed opinions about it but overall think its better than not >doing anything at all]Efdss used to do this and perhaps with the correct examiners,might >consider doing it again. Dick Miles

I don't know anything about the Comhaltas but it can't be assumed that there is a direct equivalence between the two organisations. CCE do what they do and efdss do what they do. You are right when you correct yourself in saying that efdss don't examine. Whether or not they should is open for debate. If you have any views on this or any other aspect of the efdss policy, please feel free to express your view in writing to the chairman at the address below, remembering to quote your membership number on all correspondence.

J

Address:
The English Folk Dance & Song Society
Cecil Sharp House
2, Regent's Park Rd
London
NW1 7AY

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: johnadams
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 01:24 PM

Someone called memyself wrote:

"But to my mind, that's the problem. Rather than having any number of distinct local traditions, which are expressions of local people and culture, you have the big generics, if I may call them that, and the music that perfectly suited local dances and fairs, or whatever, loses its individuality, under the pressure or attraction of outside norms. Yes, "musical standards" may be elevated - but who sets these standards? what is their purpose? I think we need to consider the question of what happens to "folk music" when it is removed from it's "folk" context."

Agreed. At the other end of the process, we should consider what it was before the Victorians or whoever so snobbily termed it 'Folk Music'. The very word 'folk' has been a problem for years. (If we're not careful we'll get into the 'horse' argument here). I'd prefer to think of it as the Devon travellers do. When the Orchard Family have sung their country and western songs and done their step dancing, they call on granny, Amy Birch, to sing one of the 'old' songs.

Perhaps that's it then - a degree in "Old Music' (and perform it how you like!).

J

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 02:07 PM

Yep, memeself one can view it as a problem but thats the way things are. My point is I don't think the degree course will have as much of an impact as recorded music already has and will continue to have.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 02:09 PM

Dear john ,I am now a member of comhaltas as I live in ireland. I cannot afford to be a member of EFDSS as well,.
that does not mean that I am not concerned about the EFDSS [rather as I might be about an elderly relative]perhaps, as I am excluded as I am no longer a member, you might bear what I have said in mind .THE COMHALTAS system of eXamination is preferable to competitions and operates very much like, the classical board of music exams, and seems reasonably successful. Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Bert
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 02:21 PM

Gawd, why the hell didn't they have something like that when I was studying engineering. It would have been much more fun that studying Macaulay's Method and Castigliano's Theorem.

I had to study Folk Music and Dancing in my spare time.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: BB
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 02:43 PM

I'm sure many of us echo that sentiment, Bert!

Dick, quite apart from whether it is appropriate for EFDSS to employ someone such as Vic, I doubt that they could afford him! Unlike the universities, EFDSS gets no significant government funding, and - correct me if I'm wrong, John - what it does get is from the Sports Council, and therefore has to be used more or less specifically on dance. And please don't let us get into a discussion on government funding for universities here!

In any case, I really think that any discussion on EFDSS and examinations is a red herring here, and has been discussed at length on other threads - so let's leave it there.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 02:56 PM

I seem to remember Ian Campbell was doing such a degree. Anybody know how he got on?

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 03:12 PM

Countess Richard,

You expressed yourself absolutely clearly (would that others did).

I was taking issue with FolkieDave when he wrote:

"Sorry, I did not mean to exclude other folk music degrees from that. But the Newcastle one is the only one in the UK."

Jack

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: johnadams
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 07:41 PM

Dick Miles wrote:

"Dear john ,I am now a member of comhaltas as I live in ireland. I cannot afford to be a member of EFDSS as well."


Dick, you pays your money and you takes your choice!

"that does not mean that I am not concerned about the EFDSS [rather as I might be about an elderly relative]perhaps, as I am excluded as I am no longer a member, you might bear what I have said in mind ."

That sounds as though efdss has excluded YOU. Haven't you excluded yourself by the choice you've made? It's your choice but if you want a voice in an organisation, surely you have to be in it? ... and thank you for concern but we can cross the road under our own steam.   :-)

"THE COMHALTAS system of eXamination is preferable to competitions and operates very much like, the classical board of music exams, and seems reasonably successful. Dick Miles"

Personally, I don't see folk music, song or dance as examinable or competitive. It just 'is'.

Johnny Adams

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Peace
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 07:43 PM

That seems a bit like saying the human mind--thought process--isn't examinable.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: johnadams
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 08:04 PM

From that point of view, everything is examinable - even your navel!

:-)

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 11:35 PM

Dear john, has it occured to you that the reason traditional music is stronger in Ireland than England, is partly a result of comhaltas aexamination and competitons. COMHALTAS was originally formed in 1951, because the irish tradition was in danger of extinction,as a result of COMHALTAS ACTIVIES [EXAMS COMPETITIONS]the tradition is very much stronger,
anyone that runs an organisation,or business such as[ efdss] needs to look at other successful models such as COMHALTAS and analyse their reasons for success.
apologies to BB, but as efdss aim is to promote dance and song and jOHNADAMS is a representative of efdss,please forgive the red herring.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: johnadams
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 03:51 AM

Dick,

No it hasn't occured to me and I think it's a very simplistic view which neglects the far reaching effect of the Irish diaspora. Some people say that Irish tradition is already dead because of Comhaltas. I don't subscribe to that point of view and wouldn't argue around it as I haven't enough knowledge, but I can see where they're coming from.

I am a member of the efdss and sit on the National Council but because I am not posting on their behalf, I am not attaching their name to my personal views. As in the past, where I speak for the society, I identify myself as doing so.

Thus, I don't think you can imply that I'm being disingenuous.

Johnny A

(I'm getting bored with this).

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 04:07 AM

yeh, just what we need a multi choice exam, to see if we're orthodox enough to be part of the tradition.

just in case someone out there still had a mild interest in folk music, that should finish the bugger off.

The Irish have been fighting a thousand years to stay as they are - undiluted and unbuggered about by us English.

we, on the other hand, are a mongrel race. undisciplined, unfettered, unconvinced by pretentensions of anyone pretending to be the true traditional music of England.

Personally I hope the bogus assylum seekers break into the citadel of our folk clubs and chuck out any Daily Mail readers they find there.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 04:36 AM

Comhaltas is hardly perfect, and has a lot of critics, not least within Ireland.

Try googling for Comhaltas+criticis

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 11:53 AM

yes I am critical of them as well .
BUT I think the examination system is an improvement on competitions. and clearly the examination system at newcastle is working well, as is the scottish one.
however it still doesnt mean that someone who has passed an exam, is a better musician than someone who has never bothered with the exam or[degree system]. Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Tootler
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 07:49 PM

The publicity Newcastle put out only claims to be the first such course in England.

However, when I was still working full time in a University I had a good look on UCAS' website and did not find anything that seemed equivalent in the UK, RSAMD notwithstanding. This seems to be born out by a couple of Scots students (now graduates) I have met who said they came to Newcastle, at least in part, because they could not find anything equivalent in Scotland.

For this reason, I am not so sure that Newcastle are as far behind the rest of the UK as some claim, though they were certainly later than Ireland or the Scandanavian countries.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST,An Insider
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 04:39 AM

Well for a start you don't have to worry about students forgetting the musical styles of where they come from because as far as most of them are concerned, where they 'come from' has no traditional music. most of the students are English and most of them are only interested in playing Irish music. Or at least fast celtic tunes. students interested in English traditional music are very rare which is ironic when people go on about how wonderful it is to have such a course in this country. There is of course the Glasgow course which is far older and focuses purely on Scottish traditional music which has interesting resulted in a large influx of students from Scotland opting for the Newcastle degree course so that they can play Irish music as well. Vic Gammon taking over as course leader will help on the English side of things but he's got his work cut out for him and as his opinions are generally quite old fashioned and purist and a lot of the young students won't be interested in what he has to say. There is a strong Northumbrian bias on the course too, so Southern English music has quite a tough corner to fight. i hope this veiw point has been helpful

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 07:04 AM

Am I right the course is heavily subscribed and a lot of applicants get turned down? Where do they go? Maybe one of the other universites offering things like "music technology" courses (eg Christchurch, in Kent - or better still one in "Copper territory") ought to offer an alternative.

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST,Dave (Bridge)
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 09:14 AM

Students on the newcastle course come from a wide variety of places, America, Sweden, France and of course UK. Once a month students are featured at the Bridge Folk Club in Newcastle where they have to do 'spots' of fifteen minutes duration and have to perform not just play/sing their material. Six students solo or group, counting as one spot, are selected or volunteer and have to observe protocols and prepare their sets. They are all very talented and I think the future of the folk scene is in good hands

Subject: RE: Folk Music Degrees - Discuss (Nicely!)
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 06:16 PM

"where they 'come from' has no traditional music. most of the students are English... i hope this veiw point has been helpful"

Not in the slightest, you tosser.