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So what is *Traditional* Folk Music?

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The Sandman 08 Nov 06 - 01:02 PM
greg stephens 08 Nov 06 - 01:19 PM
The Sandman 08 Nov 06 - 04:30 PM
The Sandman 08 Nov 06 - 04:44 PM
curmudgeon 08 Nov 06 - 05:19 PM
The Sandman 09 Nov 06 - 04:05 AM
GUEST 09 Nov 06 - 04:22 AM
The Sandman 09 Nov 06 - 08:50 AM
Folkiedave 09 Nov 06 - 09:03 AM
Snuffy 09 Nov 06 - 09:31 AM
Scrump 09 Nov 06 - 12:22 PM
Soldier boy 09 Nov 06 - 12:29 PM
The Sandman 09 Nov 06 - 12:37 PM
The Sandman 09 Nov 06 - 12:47 PM
GUEST 09 Nov 06 - 02:31 PM
Folkiedave 09 Nov 06 - 03:09 PM
GUEST 09 Nov 06 - 03:54 PM
Matthew Edwards 09 Nov 06 - 04:24 PM
GUEST 10 Nov 06 - 03:39 AM
GUEST 10 Nov 06 - 03:50 AM
greg stephens 10 Nov 06 - 06:10 AM
The Sandman 10 Nov 06 - 07:03 AM
Folkiedave 10 Nov 06 - 07:56 AM
The Sandman 10 Nov 06 - 08:05 AM
Scrump 10 Nov 06 - 08:07 AM
GUEST,Russ 10 Nov 06 - 08:31 AM
GUEST,Russ 10 Nov 06 - 08:32 AM
The Sandman 10 Nov 06 - 08:50 AM
Scrump 10 Nov 06 - 08:55 AM
GUEST,Russ 10 Nov 06 - 09:31 AM
The Sandman 10 Nov 06 - 11:30 AM
Folkiedave 10 Nov 06 - 11:32 AM
Scrump 10 Nov 06 - 11:33 AM
The Sandman 10 Nov 06 - 12:34 PM
GUEST,Russ 10 Nov 06 - 12:55 PM
GUEST 10 Nov 06 - 01:17 PM
The Sandman 10 Nov 06 - 01:29 PM
Folkiedave 10 Nov 06 - 02:12 PM
GUEST,Russ 10 Nov 06 - 02:20 PM
GUEST 10 Nov 06 - 04:02 PM
Soldier boy 10 Nov 06 - 08:49 PM
The Sandman 11 Nov 06 - 04:23 AM
GUEST 11 Nov 06 - 05:07 AM
GUEST,JT 11 Nov 06 - 08:11 AM
GUEST 11 Nov 06 - 10:17 AM
greg stephens 11 Nov 06 - 11:06 AM
GUEST 11 Nov 06 - 12:45 PM
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Peace 11 Nov 06 - 03:02 PM
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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 01:02 PM

if you google, lake of pontchartrain, you will find that is the correct title, collected in 1958 from ben daugherty.
    geographically there is one lake, what you say is as daft as singing about the mountain of mourne when its supposed to be plural or the lochs lomond.or the dowy den of yarrow,or the green field of france, or the field of athenry.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 01:19 PM

Cap'n: with the greatest respect, this song has been knocking aroubnd since a little bit before 1958, under many titles. Including "The Lakes of Pontchartrain" and "The Banks of Pontchartrain". There are three big lakes out there at least, which perhaps explains the confusion? In any case, it is quite irrelevant how many lakes there are in Louisiana The song has names. One of them is "The Lakes of Pontchartrain". That is a fact. Like the nursery rhyme called "The Man in the Moon". As far as I know, at the moment there isn't a man in the moon. That does not affect the fact that its name is "The Man in the Moon".


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 04:30 PM

I sing the lake of pontchartrain.
yes, usage does determine correctness ,and if you went to louisana evryone would be referring to lake pontchartrain [singular].,and singing it as it was collected in loiusana in 1958,using the singular.
And with the greatest respect, the fact is there is, one lake of Pontchartrain,IT IS NOT IRRELEVANT,Christy Moore Popularised this song, as he did, Sweet thames flow softly[on this one he left out a verse ]in his SONG BOOK.
But because he uses the plural, but the population of loiusana ,does not, does not make him right,In fact VICE VERSA.,using the usage argument
that is why I say Christy Moore is not very good at being definitive[even though he is a fine singer]and his definiton and use of the word TRADITIONAL does not clarify what this word means, and does not help this discussion.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 04:44 PM

This lake was created betwen 2600 to 4000 years ago, and has not been in the habit of cloning itself.
Dylan [who at one time was singing this song] was also corrected by a native of Loiusana, Its as incorrect as singing on the Banks of the Niles instead of Nile.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 05:19 PM

Helen Creighton, in her 1932 tome, "Songs and Ballads of Nova Scotia" gives the song in question the title of "The Lakes of Ponchertrain." She collected it from    a Mrs. Thomas Osborne, Eastern passage, but gives no date when. She further adds that the more common name of the song is "The Creole Girl."

This does predate the source given by the captain by a few years. Incidentally, who collected it and from whom in Louisiana?

- Tom Hall


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 04:05 AM

It was collected from a mrs ben daugherty , in 1958,in kentucky.The song dates from the american civil war,so is not very old.
your quite right it is often referred to as the creole girl, but most versions have,the lyric at the end of the first line, The lake of ponchartrain.
Now the lake has been in existence for over 2000years ,much longer than the song, and the residents of loiusana and america know the lake, as lake ponchartrain.
If I was to sing GEORDIE and sing as I walked over london bridges,it would be equally nonsensical, LONDON BRIDGE is a specific bridge it is not Tower bridge or Blackfriars bridge.The lake of pontchartrain is a specific lake.THE PEOPLE OF LOUISANA use this title ,to my mind this makes it correct


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 04:22 AM

Any creative pursuit, painting, sculpture, theatre, literature, music, whatever, has its participants on different levels: researchers, passing commentators, performers, dabblers or observers; all make a contribution, Traditional singing is no different in this respect, whether the participant be the compiler of 'The English And Scottish Popular Ballads' or just a on a seat. Similarly, all those pursuits will have vast armies of non-participant outsiders who have no knowledge or interest in the subject in question.
So 75% have no idea of the meaning of tradition – so what, (wonder where that figure came from; must have missed that MORI poll!) If we present our songs well, with skill conviction and passion, perhaps we'll get bigger audiences and maybe the singing won't die, but one thing is certain; whether you call it traditional, folk, collected, source or Swiss Cheese music will not make one iota of difference, we will draw people in on the basis of our art and not on how we package it. For anybody wishing to explore further, there is more than enough well researched and skillfully written literature on the subject to fulfill anybody's requirements and make sure that anybody who wishes to can easily find out the difference between traditional song and traditional lace making. Any suggestion that the general public is incapable of grasping the beauties and subtleties of our music is patronising arrogance.
'Traditional' is an excellent term for the type of singing under discussion, whether used as a noun or an adjective. It perfectly describes the creation, re-creation and transmission of our songs; far better than opera or ballet or classical does for other forms of musical activity in my opinion. I suggest that any attempt to replace the word would be unnecessary and unbelievably stupid – have we learned nothing from the shambolic shift from 'folk' to 'traditional'.   
Language can be a beautiful thing if it is allowed to develop naturally; any attempts to intervene and legislate never fail to set alarm bells ringing in me. Some time in the next couple of days/weeks I will read in my newspaper of "collateral damage", "friendly fire" and "pacification", when I should be reading "massacre of civilians", "killing off your own side" and "the suppressing of opposition". If, some time in the future, 'traditional' becomes redundant, so be it, let it happen naturally and let's leave the manipulation of language to the Rupert Murdochs, George Bushs, and Tony Blairs of this world.
I have a confession; during this debate impure thoughts have entered my mind. The combination of PRS Members anonymity, his/her own description as a (can't remember exactly) fairly prominent public performer, a somewhat vociferous insistence that we stop using the word 'traditional', his/her membership of a self appointed, interested pressure group and a somewhat unhealthy emphasis on the financial aspects of the music has led me to wonder if there isn't a hidden agenda at play here. I wondered at one stage if he/she wasn't deliberately attempting to muddy the water so as to be able to add the title 'traditional performer' to his/her C.V.
On the other hand, should the UK be steeling itself for a hostile takeover of traditional music by P.R.S. similar to the one we have experienced from IMRO recently here in Ireland.
Nah; couldn't be!
The more charitable side of me puts his/her insistence on anonymity down to the fact that he/she has been reading too many John LeCarre novels or seeing too many James Bond films. Or maybe he/she is really Clark Kent or Diana Prince!
If he/she is really in fear for his/her career by speaking his/her mind publicly he/she should seriously consider a career change, or at the very least, get himself/herself into a decent Trades Union. Those employment conditions are usually reserved for asylum seekers nowadays!
Jim Carroll
PS Cap'n - meant no offence; I was taken aback somewhat at your apparent readiness to accept what I believe to be a very flawed argument.
PPS The Roud index gives Lake and Lakes in more-or-less equal measure. Far be it for me to defend Christy Moore, but I'm pretty sure his version came from Paddy McLusky of Armagh (Sam Henry 1935 and BBC 1953) who sings "Lakes".


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 08:50 AM

no, christy, learned it from Mike Waterson.The Watersons have made errors too,Holmfirth anthem For instance.
Jim, its a pleasure to debate with you,.
I have tried to state what I think is traditonal ,shanties, the child ballads, CECIL SHARP AND BARING GOULD AND KIDSONS COLLECTIONS[ BUT NOT MUSIC HALL], plus aboriginal songs. How about someone else stating the material they perceive as trad.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 09:03 AM

What mistakes did the Watersons make with the Holmfirth Anthem Dick?


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Snuffy
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 09:31 AM

Many of the Child ballads are not traditional at all - they could really be regarded as part of the revival. Child took them from written sources: many have never been collected from traditional singers, and indeed for many there is no reliable indication of an authentic tune. They remained in written form only, virtually as dead as Egyptian hieroglyphic tablets, until resuscitated from the 50s onwards by the likes of MacColl, Lloyd, Nic Jones, Carthy, etc often with tunes newly written or borrowed from other ballads.

Of course many others in the Child collection did survive down the years to be collected "in the wild" by Sharp, Grieg, Duncan, Kidson, Broadwood etc. These undoubtedly are traditional, but you can't say that the whole of Child is. It has to be assessed on a song by song basis.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 12:22 PM

I found this on the web which might clarify things a bit (or not, depending on whether you can speak the lingo) regarding the Holmfirth Anthem:

It's origin, apart from it's creation is most unclear. Ammon Wrigley in "Those were the days" tells us that the musical setting was written by Joe Perkins in about 1850, but that the words Ammon suggests were strung together by three or four handloom weavers in some Holmfirth alehouse. Ammon recounts the following meeting at an inn on the moors and a fellow traveller from "over t'other side" said, "Do yo' know wat it wor coalled th'Holmfirth Anthem for?" "I suppose it was because the song had it's origin in the village" Ammon said. "Nah, awll tell yo' this tale just as mi nont Mary teld it I' yar haase a score o'toimes. Shoo comes fro' Holmflrth an' shoo said ther wor beawn to bi a grand concert I' Holmfirth at wor getten op bi a greight musicianer I' Huddersfilt. Soa he put pappers I'th' shop windows 'at said at cloise o'th concert ivverbody wod sing th' National Anthem. Soa one neet Daff o'th Bak Rooad an' Joss o'th'Pig Hoils an Billy Bluenoase wor drinking at Fat Doddy's an Daff said "It's getten abaat toime wi knew summat abaat this Nashunum Anthem, soa wi con bi larnin' th' chorus" "Yus, that's reight" BiUy said, "but wat soart of a song is this Nashunum Anthem"? "Nan o'Slap's is i yar haase" Daff said, "Shooll know summat. Goa an' tell her shoo's wanted Joss. When Nan came into the taproom Daff said, "What's this Nashunum Anthem wi're ole beawn to sing?'"Yo' greight bullyeds!" Nan said, "Aw'm sure ther nivver wor sich silly fooils ivver born of a woman. Aw wodn't ha' believed ther wor sich ignoramusers i'Holmfirth. It's "Pratty Flowers" that's wat it is" "Well nah mi nont Mary said it wor a grand concert an' when th' Chairmon said " Yo'll o' Stand up an' sing th' National Anthem" well up jumped Billy Bluenoase & Joss o'th'Pig Hoills an brasted off wi' Pratty Flowers. Then the ole fooak, women & childer an' ivverybody, started singin' it. Th' Chairmon kept shaati' an' wavin' is' arms for 'em to stop, but thi' thowt he wor conductin, an' thi sang till thi' guiders o' ther necks stuck aat loike whipstocks. By gum, Chairmon wor sum nattle abbaat it"

From http://whiterose.saddleworth.net/news15.htm with thanks


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 12:29 PM

That's brilliant Scrump. I enjoyed reading that (once I'd got me yorkshire dialect hat on!)


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 12:37 PM

FOLKIE DAVE,
shepherd dear, not shepherd swain. it rhymes with clear. .My information was given to me by Mick Haywood, A YORKSHIREMAN, who did a fair amount of collecting himself.,and told me that was the way the song was sung in Holmfirth.   the Watersons recorded it in 1964, for some INEXPLICABLE reason using swain.Confirmed by link above.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 12:47 PM

Pratie not pretty ,land not lambs.two errors possibly three.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 02:31 PM

Cap'n
Is that true about Mike Waterson; if so, how do you know?
It certainly is Paddy McClusky's version.
Not contradicting you - just interested.
Jim Carroll
PS
Snuffy,
Child took virtually all his ballads from printed sources - Harry Cox got many of his the same way - doesn't mean they're not traditional in origin.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 03:09 PM

Well I live in Yorkshire about 8 miles from Holmfirth and I will be singing it every Sunday at from November 19th the Royal Hotel at Dungworth as I have done for the past 35 years and we sing "Swain" as well. The idea that it should be "dear" rather than "swain" simply to rhyme is strange since none of the other verses have such a rhyme.

Second verse is "adore" and "dear", third verse is "lambs" and "grow".

It is sung - as many songs are - in different ways by different people. You are extremely lucky in knowing which is the "correct version" - I wish I was so sure. If by traditional we accept that songs are moulded and changed then how can there be a "correct version"?

And since you are fond of saying Child's ballads are traditional then he has numerous versions of many songs. How do you decide which is the correct version?


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 03:54 PM

Captain Birdseye

You're going it backwards.

First you give YOUR definition of "traditional music",
Then you give your examples.

You don't just cite your examples and expect your readers to guess from them what you mean by "traditional music."

In a discussion like this the definition is NOT optional but the examples are.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 04:24 PM

I think that anybody who relies on folksong or any form of popular music for geographical accuracy deserves to be cast into one of the many deepest pots of Clyde water, and then buried with all the others in St Mary's Churchyard. As far as Sam Henry's informant Paddy M'Closkey was concerned when he learned the song from Frank M'Allister around 1905, the lines referred to a plurality of lakes of Pontchartrain. Frank M'Allister had been a woodsman in America so that would surely have been good enough for Paddy M'Closkey unless he had an atlas handy to stop Frank in mid-song to tell him he had his facts all wrong.

What on earth should we then do with the 'Royal Comrade/Willie Leonard' song? Its scene is variously located at the Lakes of Coolfin, Lough Inshallin, Lake Cold Flynn and at many more lakes unknown either to orthography or geography. Should singers have to introduce their songs with satellite navigational instructions?


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 03:39 AM

True for you Michael: it's called 'the tradition' or 'the folk process' - and it's what makes traditional song so interestingly diverse.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 03:50 AM

Sorry
Meant to write Matthew - can't get Percy French's bloody song out of my head!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 06:10 AM

Jim Carroll: You enquired about Mike Waterson and Christy Moore. In Christy Moore's song book, he mentions that he learned Pontchartrain form Mike Waterson.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 07:03 AM

since the Watersons recorded it in 1964, and Folkie dave is clearly part of the folk revival, I am not surprised he sings it the way he does.
Patrick Kelly [ West clare fiddle player remarked]that the worst thing that happened to clare fiddle playing was the advent of Micheal Colemans recordings on 78rpm.everyone emulated Sligo style and Coleman.Itseems like the same thing may have happened with THE Holmfirth Anthem.,and the Watersons.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 07:56 AM

The Sheffield Carols (as they are popularly known) date back a long time before the so-called folk revival and are not part of it. I say so-called because like a lot of traditional singing they never went away, and whilst they now have a new lease of life they have not been "revived" as such. I am indeed a newcomer to folk music having only been listening to it since 1960.

Billy Mills - a long-time singer at Dungworth who died aged well past 80, and who most people would recognise as a traditional singer, used to sing "Christmas Tree". The words he sang were in part a mish-mash of misheard lyrics - but Bill sang it that way consistently all the years I knew him.

Were those the wrong words? And whose words were the right words? The one in the printed version? How do you know their version is "right" and the song Billy sang is "wrong"?

Holmfirth Anthem is sung in different ways in a lot of the pubs in the Sheffield area, come and tell some of them they are getting it wrong Dick.

I suspect the answer will be short.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 08:05 AM

no one has dared to say, apart from myself what songs or music they consider are trad,.
This thread will go nowhere, until ,people are positive,. Folkie dave shoots holes in some of the child ballads, UNTIL other contributors, give us some examples, of what songs THEYconsider traditional, NOone is answering the question,.
so what about foOtball songs.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Scrump
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 08:07 AM

"Pratty" is E Lancs as well as W Yorks pronunciation of "Pretty", so you could argue that whether the title of the Holmfirth Anthem is "Pretty Flowers" or "Pratty Flowers" is academic, since anyone singing it in the correct accent will pronounce it "Pratty" anyway.

It raises again the question as to whether people should attempt to sing songs in a local accent/dialect unless they were born into it, which was discussed in another thread not long ago.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 08:31 AM

Captain Birdseye

You're still doing this wrong.

The thread will go nowhere until you offer us a definition of traditional music for us to shoot holes in.

A simple list of examples is not the proper target for hole-shooting.
A definition is.

If you simply offer examples without a defintion, the "discussion" gets nowhere.
You say X is traditional.
I say it isn't.
You say, "is too."
Is say, "Is not."
etc.

If you give us a definition, we'll gladly shoot holes in it by offering counter-examples.

More fun that way.

PS, the GUEST post of Nov 06 - 03:54 PM is mine. Forgot to sign it.

Russ (Permanent GUEST, but not just GUEST)


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 08:32 AM

Yes, I am a procedural pedant.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 08:50 AM

no one, has objected, so far to shanties,aboriginal songs, some of the child ballads, the collections of kidson, sharp, and baring gould, as all being traditonal folk music, can I dare to add Morris dancing,English, Scottish, Irish ceilidh dancing.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Scrump
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 08:55 AM

The problem with attempts to define 'traditional' by providing a list of what it encompasses is that the list is unlikely to be complete.

For example there may be (perhaps smaller or lesser known) collections other than those in the Captain's list, which might well have an equally good claim to be 'traditional', but are excluded simply because no-one thought to add them to the list. I'm not saying I know of any, but there's no reason why they shouldn't exist.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 09:31 AM

Scrump,

The problem with attempts to define 'traditional' by providing a list of what is encompasses
IS THAT
a list is NOT a definition.

Russ (Permanent and Persistent GUEST)


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 11:30 AM

However providing lists, gets us further, than some of the codswallop, and inability to define, found earlier in this thread.
I would like to add the penguin book of english folksongs, please feel free to shoot holes in this if you so wish.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 11:32 AM

Well I consider myself to be a retired Morris dancer - but we didn't do any "traditional" dances. We did a tradition called "Med up" which is short for "Med up Bi ussens".

Now since Morris dancing is traditional - where does that leave us?

All this week there has been a programme on BBC Radio 4 about how traditional music in the highlands of Scotland has been developing. These are mainly young people who are respecters but more importantly developers of the tradition. Chris Stout, Julie Fowlis et al. and the people from the National Centre for Excellence in Traditonal Music at Plockton.

Where do they fit in Dick?


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Scrump
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 11:33 AM

The attempt to define what is traditional by simply extending the list of inclusions is doomed to failure because it can never be completed. I think another approach is needed.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 12:34 PM

folkie Dave why do you ask me.somewhere near Plockton hopefully, your more of an expert than me, with all your book reading.
I am just a singer.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 12:55 PM

Captain Birdseye,

You still don't get it.

So....

How about adding the Beatles' "Rubber Soul" album to your list.

Reluctant to do so?

Thought so.

Explain why this item does not belong on the list.

Your explanation will be the BEGINNING of a process which might eventually result in YOUR definition of traditional music.

Russ (Permanent GUEST and definitional discussion expert)


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 01:17 PM

Folk Music Definition
Folk music is the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission. The factors that shape the tradition are: (i) continuity which links the present with the past; (ii) variation which springs from the creative impulse of the individual or the group; and (iii) selection by the community, which determines the form or forms in which the music survives.
The term can be applied to music that has been evolved from rudimentary beginnings by a community uninfluenced by popular and art music and it can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community.
The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 01:29 PM

very good Jim, One problem, Jazz fits these three criteria.
to guest russ.
I have no intention of replying to this sort of Mumbo Jumbo.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 02:12 PM

Jim,

I am reluctant to debate with you because we agree about so much.

But some broadside ballads are sung as they were published 150 years ago and remain unchanged. Likewise some songs which have been composed have hardly changed either and yet would be recognisably folk songs. Some of Ewan's songs have come back unchanged having passed through the communal experience.

It may be that some of these composed songs (Fiddler's Green being a good example) have not been around enough to be "changed" by communal experience, but I would suggest it has been sung thousands of times and have not changed one iota. It isn't traditional I agree - but where else could you put it other than in folk song?

Finally other sorts of music don't seem to have this problem. Having been beating myself over the head with this question since I can remember - I decided to go along with them!!

Best regards,

Dave


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 02:20 PM

Captain Birdseye,

Sorry for the mumbo jumbo.

Just trying to be helpful.

Honest

Russ (Permanent and properly chastised GUEST)


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 04:02 PM

Sorry folk - this is, as far as I know, the only agreed defintition arrived at by a working group of researchers (International Folk Music Council), and while we may disagree with it, I don't think we can ignore it.
While I believe this definition to be less than perfect, it has been the accepted one for over half a century and is, I believe, an excellent starting point.
Rather than go off half-cocked, with everybody starting from scratch and making it up as they go along, (including the Humpty Dumpty contingent) would it not be better to work on what we have and come to some sort of a conclusion on what has gone before.
Let's face it; those of us involved in this debate are a tiny minority within a minority subject and all we can possibly achieve is some sort of an agreement between ourselves, or at the very least, to agree to differ. This way we will continue to communicate, but only with each other.
Jim Carroll
PS Alternatively, we could take the definition from the Funk And Wagnall Standard Dictionary of Folklore, Mythology and Legend as our starting point - that only runs to seventeen double columned pages!


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 08:49 PM

OK people, there is much talk about what is traditional and what is not traditional that has been posted,but very few examples of what is actually regarded as genuine "Traditional" Folk Music has been proffered.
Untill we compare notes and agree on what is Traditional folk music and songs how can we come to any agreement?

Too many people who are the core contributors on this thread seem to hide behind the parapet and suddenly become shy about openly saying what they believe to be 'examples' of the correct/original/definitive versions of traditional folk music.

Unless you say what you believe to be firm and indisputable examples of traditional folk music how can the rest of us possibly make any informed opinions?

Unless you do this we will remain confused but interested.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 04:23 AM

This is precisely what I have been trying to do, but have been repeatedly hampered.,With balderdash about procedure.
if you interviewed the English public you would get this answer THE Wild Rover. Morris Dancing. so Folkie Daves definition is kyboshed by the usage argument .
If you went to LOIUSANA The general publics answer would probably be cajun or zydeco.If you asked an aboriginal it would probably be tunes on the Didgeridoo,If you asked Chris Roche it would be shanties[ SUNG IN UNISON].If you went to mexico it would be tex mex. SoThere are some starters.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 05:07 AM

Soldier Boy,
Nice one - but...............
By its very nature there are no correct, original or definitive versions of traditional folk music; as Anahata and others pointed out (seems like a thousand years ago), it's not how the songs riginated but what happened to them as they were passed from singer to singer which makes them traditional or folk (I'm still comfortable - and getting more comfortable with both terms). My experience with traditional singers points to the fact that every singer who has sung for us regards his or her own songs (or those songs learned from family members) as correct. All you can ask is that people give you typical examples of what they regard as typical traditional songs AND STATE WHY, otherwise you will end up with a folk 'Desert Island Discs' with everybody giving you their favourite song, which is not what you are asking.
For what they are worth, here are two of mine. I hope you don't mind that I have included notes I have written on both of them for various projects- I'm afraid they are rather lengthy:
1. Barbara Allen
Probably the most widespread of all the ballads, this is known throughout the English-speaking world. Samuel Pepys, in his diary entry for 2nd January 1666 wrote,
"In perfect pleasure I was to hear her" (Mrs Knipp, an actress) "sing, and especially her little Scotch song of Barbary Allen".
Oliver Goldsmith heard it sung by a dairymaid, Peggy Golden, at Lissoy, near Ballymahon, Co. Westmeath, and wrote in 1765,
"The music of the finest singer is dissonance to what I felt when an old dairymaid sung me into tears with "Johnny Armstrong's Last Goodnight" or "The Cruelty Of Barbara Allen".
It first appeared in print in Allan Ramsay's Tea-Table Miscellany and has continued to make an appearance in folk song collections since. In William Stenhouse's notes to the variant in The Scots Musical Museum, he wrote;                 
"It has been a favourite ballad at every country fire-side in Scotland, time out of memory………
A learned correspondent informs me that he remembers having heard the ballad frequently sung in Dumfriesshire, where, it was said, the catastrophe took place…"   
Bronson gives around two hundred versions, and ethnomusicologist Charles Seeger edited an LP record containing thirty American recordings.
The enduring popularity of the ballad among country singers and a revealing insight into how it was viewed by them, was amply illustrated in an interview with American traditional singer Jean Ritchie who spoke about her work collecting folk songs in Ireland, Scotland and England in the early nineteen fifties.
She says;
"I used the song Barbara Allen as a collecting tool because everybody knew it. When I would ask people to sing me some of their old songs they would sometimes sing "Does Your Mother Come From Ireland", or something about shamrocks.   But if I asked if they knew "Barbara Allen", immediately they knew exactly what kind of song I was talking about and they would bring out beautiful old things that matched mine; and were variants of the songs that I knew in Kentucky.   It was like coming home".

2   Van Dieman's Land                                
"Apart from the songs produced directly by the enclosures in England, a side effect of the appropriation of common land provided one of the largest and most poignant bodies of songs in the British and Irish repertoires repertoire, the poaching songs. Deprived of the right to legally catch game on the old commons, the poor resorted to taking it illegally.   Many of them continued, as they had always done, to go out at night setting traps to snare rabbits and pheasants. The landowners retaliated by employing keepers to protect what they considered their inalienable right to their newly-acquired property. They also resorted to setting mantraps, large, viciously toothed, spring-loaded devices capable of breaking a man's leg and tearing off chunks of flesh. Also in common use were spring-guns; booby trapped shotguns capable of firing four inch bolts, usually into the poachers legs. The response of the poachers was to go out armed and in larger numbers. This escalation led to a period of English rural history known as "The Poaching Wars".   It worked like this. Men who had previously gone out poaching singly resorted to teaming up with others to offer resistance to the gamekeepers employed by the landowner. The landowner would, in his turn, employ more keepers and so ad infnitum. One song from the eastern county of Lincolnshire, entitled "The Rufford Park Poachers" tells of a pitched battle between forty poachers and a similar number of keepers. On being apprehended the poachers would be tried by magistrates who were themselves local landowners who would, as was to be expected, show little mercy. First offenders would usually be heavily fined, but the most common punishment for a repeating offender was transportation to the penal settlements in Australia, usually for long periods.             The songs created on this subject cover the whole gamut of attitudes and emotions: despair, anger, defiance, repentance even a boisterous humour.                        Poaching songs were to be found in abundance throughout Britain and Ireland, but to my mind the best of them is the one popularly found in the Eastern part of England in East Anglia.   Entitled simply "Van Dieman's Land", it deals with an event said to have taken place in Warwickshire on Squire Dunhill's (sometimes Donniell's or Daniel's) Estate. In my opinion it is a perfect example of a narrative English traditional song, and what makes it so good is its matter-of-fact presentation of the events. It tells how a young man who goes poaching is taken by the keepers, tried at Warwick Assizes, and sentenced to be transported for fourteen years. He is placed on board ship, endures a six month voyage, lands in Australia, is taken ashore yoked together with other convicts, auctioned to the highest bidder like livestock, and finally settles down to his fate.
Whether the events described can be pinned down to one particular occurrence is debatable, but they are so typical of what was happening all over rural England that the song passed into numerous versions with different names and locations. This version was sung to us by the late Walter Pardon, a carpenter who came from a farming background in a small village in North Norfolk. He described it as "a long old song, but then", as he said, "it was a long old journey", which, for me, is an example of a singers relating perfectly to his song".
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,JT
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 08:11 AM

The Newcastle folk degree course must be a godsend to the main protagonists here. Judging by the content of the thread you'd need a degree to fathom it all out. The fact that the issue has become so academic is meaningless to the majority of people who play and listen to the music - they know what they like and enjoy it regardless of its pedigree. In the great scheme of things it doesn't really matter. Something is always lost when someone gets a hold of what you like and decides it's their mission in life to organise it.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 10:17 AM

Not organise, understand,
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 11:06 AM

Jim: the Necastle degree course strives to organise as well as to understand. Some would prefer it to stick to the latter, but at the moment it very definitely does both.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 12:45 PM

Guest JT.
Sorry for the knee-jerk reaction; I really shouldn't do that.
I must also apologise for complicating things for you – I was just thinking how pleasant this thread has been just because it wasn't complicated by big words or convoluted ideas – not a sign of an incremental repetition anywhere so far - there you go; I had forgotten that there are people around to whom all ideas are complicated.
I wonder why you should object to some of us thinking about the music they are involved in - particularly as many of us are singers and musicians - or have been in the past. I assume from the tone of your posting that you also disapprove of Newcastle or Elphinstone or Limerick or Sheffield or Galway or any other faculty where they waste their time thinking about and discussing music and song as well as playing it.
Of course, the fatal flaw of your argument is that if it wasn't people who were not content with just playing and singing, but who got up off their bums and wrote about it and collected it and annotated it and transcribed it and published it and released it for others to listen to – people like Captain O'Neill, Sharp, Child, Bronson, Henderson, Breathnach and all those other saddos, you wouldn't have any music to play or songs to sing in the first place.
Tell you what; I won't object to your playing your tunes without thinking if you don't object to my wasting my time researching.
Some of us pathetic individuals actually get pleasure from knowledge
All the best
Jim Carroll
PS, Sorry Greg, I wasn't commenting on Newcastle - I have a couple of friends who teach there and have a reasonable idea what they do - more power to their elbows.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 01:59 PM

Jim

I think that I prefer the knee-jerk reaction to the condecending and sarcastic one that followed.
I've no objection to you or anybody else thinking about the music you are involved in, it's just that after reading the thread I've got this image of a dog chasing its tail.
Contrary to your assumption that I disaprove of courses at Newcastle or anywhere else, I think that they are all excellent but I have an inbuilt suspicion of anyone who feels that they were put on this earth to organise everyone else according to what they see as the definitive way.
To me those who, as you put it, "got off their bums and wrote about it and collected it and annotated it etc.." preserved it,yes, but the downside was that they were also responsible for spawning the folk industry and making a living out of something that was freely given.
I don't recall referring to anyone as "pathetic" or a "saddo" and object to the inference in your rather unpleasant posting. Nor did I demean or belittle anyones'pleasure in research or knowledge.You really should refrain from making such inferences, It doesn't do you any favours.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 02:57 PM

condecending   -    prisoner coming down

condescending   - how it should be spelt


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 03:02 PM

In the time this thread has been going, Woody Guthrie as well as Malvina Reynolds would have written thirty songs each. Of course, they wouldn't have been traditional.


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