The Four Marys - who were they really?

Subject: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From:
Date: 08 Mar 99 - 09:43 PM

I was recently asked about a song our group plays called the four Marys. The song entions Mary Beaton, Mary Seaton, Mary Carmichael and me (whom we assume to be Mary Hamilton. However, who was Mary Hamilton? Any suggestion I have found referes to her a a part of the court of Mary Queen of Scots, (Mary Stuart) or some vague references to Tsar Peter of Russia. If anyone has further info on our dear departed Mary Hamilton, or her chums, could you please pass it on. Thanks.

D

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 08 Mar 99 - 10:23 PM

Child, #173, considered the ballad related to the story of Mary Hamilton executed in Russia on Mar. 14, 1719. No other Mary's in this story. A Mary Beaton and Mary Seaton acompanied Mary Queen of Scots to France when she was a Child, but no Mary Carmichael. The Russian story, retold in English by Child, doesn't have her pregnant by a Stuart, and the action is all in Russia, not Scotland. I't really difficult to see what more than the execution of a Mary Hamilton for infanticide is common to the story and the ballad.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 09 Mar 99 - 12:43 AM

Mary Stuart while in France (1548-1561) was attended by 4 Marys of the houses of Fleming, Livingston, Seton & Beaton of Creich. In 1563 in the court of Mary, Queen of Scots, a French waiting maid who was involved with the Queen's apothecary was hung for the murder of her newborn child. Skip forward to the year 1718 or 19 in the court of Peter the Great we find Mary Hamilton, a maid of honor to Empress Catharine, was also involved with a high born, she too hung for the murder of her child. The song has been found prior to the Mary Hamilton murder of 1718.

Couldn't help writting about the confusing facts about this song. At this late hour I have no restraint or shame. To the Scottish tune of "Soldier Laddie". Barry ^^

I once was a Mary but I know not when
I took my delight with the highest of men
When they asked for a maid it seems there were twenty
I'm sure they'd not miss just one pregnant lady

But I was reduced to hide in the halls
My love wouldn't take me to court or to balls
I sued for support but I couldn't get any
It was then that I thought I'd be rid of the baby

I went to Russia & I went to France
At the court of the Queens I played them at chance
The Marys all there, they were all against me
If I'd only shared my Grand Apothecary

Now I will not weep nor will I moan
For I know I'll be thought of in ballad & song
If you know my last name give it back to my baby
The baby's not dead only her mother the Lady

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 09 Mar 99 - 01:02 AM

Child doesn't have any versions prior to 1824, other than 4 lines from Robert Burns in a letter of Jan. 25, 1790, and 2 verses of 1823 sent by C. K. Sharpe to W. Scott. Where is that version prior to 1718 found?

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 09 Mar 99 - 01:30 AM

Hi Bruce, from the "Viking Book of Folk Ballads" I quote"One would be tempted to consider the ballad an outgrowth of the Russian tragety of 1719 if it were not for the troublesome fact that some form of the balld seems to have circulated in Scotland before 1719". It's not said where that info was gotten from. The song quoted above is of a more recent vintage, I only wrote it a few moments ago, I did want to add a twist to the out come. Never minded all these Marys getting their necks stretched but I always wanted to see the child victims out live their courtly mothers. Good night Bruce, I'm going to bed (if I can shut this thing down) before my kids kill me. Barry

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Mar 99 - 02:07 AM

Wasn't it the title of a long running adventure strip, set in an all girls Public School, in 'Bunty'?

Not that as a big strong lad and into 'rugger and stuff', I ever read it. *smiles*

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Ritchie
Date: 09 Mar 99 - 06:56 AM

Mary's...Radleigh,Simpson,Cotter and...or something like that..like you Shambles I never read it although I may have some of the cut out dolls that were on the back of the 'Bunty' if you're interested.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 09 Mar 99 - 11:15 AM

Friedman didn't quote any lines or say where any could be found (other than Scotland, as one might guess), so as far as I'm concerned that's just his halucination.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Mar 99 - 12:22 PM

Thank you Richie.

Now I know I'm not alone, I can now come out of the closet and admit it. I cut out the dolls too! *laughs*

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Penny
Date: 09 Mar 99 - 12:56 PM

By an amazing bit of synchronicity, a book I bought in a second-hand shop in Rochester, because it had the Cutty Wren in it, because I had seen the reference to it here, because I wanted the words for Red Nose Day, also has background on this song. (Stories of Britain in Song, Forbes Stuart, Longman Young, 1972)

It gives John Knox as a source: "In the very time of the General Assembly, there comes to public knowledge a haynous murther, committed in the court; yea, not far from the Queen's lap; for a French woman, that served in the Queen's Chamber, had played the whore with the Queen's own apothecary. the woman conceived and bare a child, whom, with common consent, the father and mother murthered; yet were the cries of a new-borne childe hearde, searche was made, the child and the mother were both apprehended, and so were the man and the woman condemned to be hanged in the publicke street of Edinburgh. the punishment was suitable, because the crime was haynous.

But yet was not the court purged of whores and whoredoms, which was the fountaine of such enormities; for it was well-known that lust hasted marriage betwixt John Sempill, called the Dancer, and Mary Livingstone, surnamed the Lusty. What bruit the Maries, and the rest of the dancers of the court had, the ballads of that age doe witnesse, which we for modestie's sake omit."

It also states that Sir Walter Scott found evidence of the same story in both the court of Peter the Great and in France, with the French woman becoming Mary Hamilton, the man Henry Darnley, and the time when Mary, as Queen Dowager of France, had not returned home.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 09 Mar 99 - 02:49 PM

Here's my new 'history' of our ballad. It seems that Queen Mary's chamblerlain, an Italian composer named David Rizzio, must certainly be the one who learned about the affair of the French woman named Mary Hamilton and the Lord Darley, the apothecary, and wrote a disguised account of it and extended the tale to its logical conclusion as "Mary Hamilton", and, of course, composed our beloved tune for it. To Darnley it wasn't well enough disguised, so taking slight umbrage at Rizzio he and friends subsequently murdered him. The English got a very much whitewashed version of the tale, because in the ballad of Lord Darly [Darnley], (ZN1112 in my broadside ballad index) we find:

There dwelt a stranger in the court,
Sinior Dauid calde by name,
He was the first that went about,
This treason vile to frame.

The English were never told what this treason vile was, but now we have cleverly deduced it. Darnley didn't outlive him by much, but he wasn't killed for infanticide as far as I have been able to discover

Plausibily can fill in most gaps in our histories quite well.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 Mar 99 - 11:04 PM

I can only quote: Folk song is always, true. Sometime, however, the facts get screwed up.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 09 Mar 99 - 11:26 PM

Priceless Dick, I hadn't seen that one before.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Darrell
Date: 17 Mar 99 - 07:42 PM

Thanks, all for the profusion of possibilities. Your efforts are much appreciated, and I shall return someday with another request, I am sure. Cheerz.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Marion
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 03:20 PM

So if you were performing this song, how would you introduce it?

I'd like to be able to introduce it in a few sentences without giving a full lecture about what it might be about, and yet not be too quick and dirty with the facts. Maybe I should just quote Dick...

Marion

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: kendall
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 03:43 PM

Where I come from, to be "hung" has a totally different meaning! For a woman to be "hung" is too grusome to contimplate! LOL

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 04:10 PM

Lesley Nelson has a short summary here.

I also remember (don't quote me on this) that James Michener talked about this song in his book, "The Drifters."

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Joe_F
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 04:34 PM

Child eventually came to the conclusion that the resemblance to the Russian incident was a concidence. But it was quite a coincidence, including many odd details.

Wish Project Gutenberg would do Child, so we could *all* read it.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 04:34 PM

Since it never happened, it doesn't make any difference what names someone decided to use in the ballad.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: fox4zero
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 06:17 PM

Any relationship to Mary, Mary quite contrary..... ....and pretty maids all in a row.? I remember that the "pretty maids all in a row" was a reference to the courtesans in Mary Queen of Scotts court. Reference from Oxford "Mother Goose" or "Nursery Rhymes" Larry Parish

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 06:27 PM

Just who in Queen Mary's court were courtesans? I've never heard of any. I suggest you re-read the Opie's 'The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes', notes to #342 in the 2nd. ed., 1997.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Penny S.
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 06:31 PM

The way I heard it, Contrary Mary was the Tudor one, and the pretty maids were nuns, the silver bells those rung at Mass and the cockle shells those of pilgrims to Santiago de Compostela. There may have been a reference to gardens planted to remind people of Catholic doctrines, with flowers (eg lilies) associated with the Virgin Mary. (I got hauled over the coals last time I referred to that, for giving no references. They're in the Forum somewhere.)

Penny

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 10:26 PM

It's always a good idea to give references in cases like this, as so much imaginary nonsense is presented as (unproven) "fact" by people (present company excepted) who have heard or seem to remember reading all manner of unlikely things; that way, you're less likely to get the blame when it all turns out to be fiction!

Iona and Peter Opie (The Oxford Book of Nursery Rhymes, 1951) had this to say:

"It is possible (as has been frequently stated) that this rhyme has a religious background; that it is a word-picture of Our Lady's convent has been suggested, the bells being the sanctus bells, the cockleshells the badges of the pilgrims, the pretty maids the nuns rank behind rank at offìce.  But there is disagreement as to the significance of the piece as a whole. Catholic writers feel it to be a lament for the persecution of the Roman Church; Protestant writers declare it is a lament at the reinstatement of the Roman Church.  Popular tradition has it that the original Mary was Mary Queen of Scots, who with her gay, French, and Popish inclinations much displeased the dour John Knox.  In this case the pretty maids might be the renowned Four Marys, her ladies-in-waiting, and it has even been stated that the cockleshells were the decorations upon a particular dress she was given by the Dauphin.  Such assertions are, of course, the work of the "happy guessers".  No proof has been found that the rhyme was known before the eighteenth century.  It is to be remarked, however, that there is a tune Cuckolds all a row in the I651 edition of Playford's Dancing Master.  The last line of the 1780 version of the rhyme goes Sing cuckolds all on a row and it could well be sung to the tune in The Dancing Master."

The first reference they give is toTom Thumb's Pretty Song Book (M. Cooper), vol. ii, c.1744.

Mistress Mary Quite contrary,
How does your Garden grow?
With Silver Bells, And Cockle Shells,
And so my Garden grows.

For what it's worth, there is a text of Cuckolds, from D'Urfey's Pills to Purge Melancholy (1719-20), with tune, in the DT:

Cuckolds all a row

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: fox4zero
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 02:28 AM

"Happy guessing" (on my part, at least) is the result of ingesting 50mg of Prozac daily. Larry

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 09:51 AM

This is fascinating. As Garek the Tailor once said, I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't TRUST coincidences. I think it's the same song rather than the same story...

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: GUEST,Kevin at work
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 10:31 AM

The four Marys that I know are...

1. Mary K.: A farm housewife in rural Massachusetts.

2. Mary R.: A nurse at Methodist Hospital in Brooklyn, New York.

3. Mary D.: A New York City police officer from the 112th precinct in Forest Hills, Queens.

4. Mary M.: An assistant principal at Lafayette High School in Brooklyn, New York.

I doubt there's a ballad about any of them, but I can attest to the fact that all four are real people. Maybe I will make up a song about them.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 12:33 PM

As mentioned above, the famous 4 Maries at Mary Stuart's court did not include a Mary Hamilton, but they did inspire popular ballads at the time. John Knox writing about them said,"The ballads of the age did witness which we for modesty's sake omit." Also we have the other lady in waiting hanged for infanticide. This would have greatly excited the scandal mongers of the day
It is likely that an early version of our ballad emerged at this time.
Mary Hamilton was a maid of honour at the court of Catherine the Great. She was executed for killing her baby. The father was widely believed to have been the Tsar Peter. So many parallels to the song can hardly be coincidence.
Clearly some long forgotten balladeer wove all these threads together and produced the hauntingly lovely song that has come down to us.
So you see Guest, it did happen, and it does matter. Poor Mary dieing friendless and far from home deserves to have her story sung and the cruel injustice remembered.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: GUEST,shona
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 01:14 PM

Hey, i sing this song but i think it might be a different version!

Last night the queen had four mary's the nicht she'll have but three there was mary seaton and mary beaton and mary carmicheal and me.

thats the first verse of the song i sing. What it says in my song is that mary hamilton was killed in castlegate oin edinburgh because she had the kings baby and the queen found out because she heard the baby crying in the middle of the night. another interesting fact about this song is that it has loads of different versions, in fact it is the song that has the most versions of all ballads and songs and stuff. the version i sing has 24 verses. its a lovely song whichever version you sing anyway!

I dont know if i have helped!

Shona

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 02:06 PM

That's the one Shona.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: fox4zero
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 02:23 PM

Shona Would it be possible for you to post your 24 verse version of the 4 Marys? I would gladly supply the amphetamines. Thank you.

Is the jury still out? Am I a schmuck (Guest), a happy guesser (Malcolm Douglas) or something in between.

Guest Is your bark necesary? "Be a nice boy/girl" as my Mother used to say.

Larry Parish

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 06:53 PM

ok, i'll try and post it, its floating around the house somewhere, the reason being i havent sung it in a while. there are so many versions of it its unbelievable! really nice song though. i didnt understand all this with the tsar's and everything, as far as i knew, mary hamilton popped the kings sprog, the queen found out and chopped of mary hamiltons head. 24 verses just to say that eh?!

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 06:53 PM

Oh thanks a bunch guys and gals... I'd just got this out of my head after it being there for a bloody month!!

Here we go again....

LTS

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 09:16 PM

As has already been mentioned, this is Professor Child's number #173 (English and Scottish Popular Ballads, 1884-98).   At this point, I'd best just indicate some of what's already available online at some of the more reliable sites:

In the Digital Tradition:

THE FOUR MARIES  Text and tune from the Grieg-Duncan Collection; no original source is named, but Bruce Olson has mentioned elsewhere that this one came from Susan and Mary Strachan in 1916.

MARY MILD  Another text and tune from the Grieg-Duncan Collection; no original source named.

MARY HAMILTON (2)  From a record by Jean Redpath; no tune given or previous source named. The text appears to be a cut-down version of Child's #173:I, which was taken from Scott's Minstrelsy of the Scottish Borders, and was itself a collation of several texts. Jean doesn't name her source for either text or tune in the notes to her recording.

MARY HAMILTON  Text and tune from the Joan Baez Songbook, with no indication given as to source.

In the Forum:

lyrics req: Four Mary's  Contains an unformatted text taken from a 1960s book with no original source named; it's actually Child's version A, which was largely taken from C.K. Sharpe's Ballad Book (1824),

There is an entry at  The Traditional Ballad Index:

Mary Hamilton [Child 173]

At Lesley Nelson's  Folk Music  site:

The Four Marys  Text and tune from Jerry Silberman's Songs of the British Isles; no original source source named.

There are two American variants with soundfiles, both of which use the best-known tune, at  The Max Hunter Folk Song Collection:

Mary Hamilton  As sung by Jane Robinson, Fayetteville, Arkansas on June 21, 1958

Four Mary's  As sung by Almeda Riddle, Heber Springs, Arkansas on October 23, 1965 ^^

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jul 01 - 06:50 PM

And the version in The Oxford Book pof English Verse has 25 verses - but no indication where they came from.

Mind I think the distilled shorter versions that jump right into the middle of the story without any explanations are more powerful. Folk wisdom.

As for "gardens planted to remind people of Catholic doctrines, with flowers (eg lilies) associated with the Virgin Mary" - my wife remembers, when she was a child after the war in London, she used to make "grotters" with shells and glittery things by the side of the pavement. Only years later did she realise they were actually "grottoes".

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 10:02 AM

The text in The Oxford Book of Ballads was taken from Scott's Minstrelsy (referred to above).

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 10:08 AM

Sorry; I meant to say Oxford Book of English Verse!  The text in the Book of Ballads is Child's version G, with a tune from Mrs. Harris, whose text is Child's version.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 10:10 AM

...J.

Heavens, one day away with the 'phone line broken and I'm out of practice already...

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: MMario
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 11:58 AM

whew! Malcolm - looks like you're making up for lost time tho. Thanks!

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: GUEST,Nora
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 02:01 PM

OMG! I had thought this was an easily answered question.

My husband and I were listening to Mary Hamilton, and he asked me what's the song really about? I found that I didn't have a good answer, so thought I'd go investigate.

What have I gotten myself into? I now find myself immersed in Marys up to my eyes!!

Thanks y'all for sharing and now...back to pouring over all the info presented above.

Nora

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Menolly
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 03:47 PM

I remember hearing that Marie was a name or title for a lady in waiting and so not necessarily her name !

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 07:13 PM

Well, yes; but since it appears that the term "Maries" for ladies-in-waiting derived specifically from the remarkable fact of Queen Mary's having had four ladies-in-waiting who were all called Mary, that doesn't really get us all that far; though it might be, since those ladies-in-waiting were all famously called Mary, that a fictional addition to the group (or a real character introduced from elsewhere) might automatically be given that name.

Since this thread has returned from the dust of yesteryear, perhaps I should clear up one or two points which were left hanging and may mislead the unwary.

Barry Finn stated that the ballad had been found prior to 1718, subsequently quoting a statement made in the Viking Book of Folk Ballads to a "troublesome fact that some form of the ballad seems to have circulated in Scotland before 1719". The editor, Albert Friedmann, cited no authority for this statement. It may be based in part on a misunderstanding of a comment made by John Knox in his History of the Reformation, and quoted by Child (III 382, footnote; and above, in a slightly different form). Having commented upon the case of one of Queen Mary's ladies of the bedchamber, a Frenchwoman who became pregnant by the queen's apothecary and was condemned for infanticide, Knox continued:

"But not yet was the court purged of whores and whoredom, which was the fountain of such enormities; for it was well known that shame hasted marriage betwix John Semple, called the Dancer, and Mary Livingston, surnamed the Lusty. What bruit the Maries and the rest of the dancers of the court had, the ballads of that age did witness, which for modesty's sake we omit."

The scandal involving an anonymous French lady of the bedchamber and the lesser scandal involving Marie Livingston were entirely separate. There is no evidence that the ballads referred to by Knox were in any way related to the ballad of Mary Hamilton: Child himself commented: "As to the 'ballads' about the Maries mentioned by Knox, I conceive that these may mean nothing more than verses of any sort to the discredit of these ladies." (Child V, 299, footnote).

Lesley Nelson's comment at The Four Marys (referred to above) that "There is speculation that the "apothecary" was Lord Darnley in disguise" is also puzzling. She quotes no source for the anecdote, but since the event took place in 1563 and Darnley did not come to Scotland until 1565, it is worth mentioning only in case someone should unwisely attach any credence to it; particularly as the guilty apothecary, and the Frenchwoman, were both hanged in 1563. (Child, V, 298). Presumably Lesley's reference to "Other versions of this ballad (circa 1563)" are based on Friedmann's (seemingly baseless) speculation.

Child did revise, to an extent, his initial thought that an origin in the Russian incident was the only tenable basis for the ballad. This was in the light of two factors. The first was the discovery of a version (his example U: Child IV 509) which contains the lines

My love he was a pottinger,
Mony drink he gae me,
And a' to put back that bonnie babe,
But alas! it wad na do.

This from a text of 16 stanzas communicated to Walter Scott, 7th January, 1804, by Rev George Paxton, Kilmaurs, near Kilmarnock, Ayrshire (afterwards professor of divinity at Edinburgh); from the mouth of Jean Milne, his "aged mother, formerly an unwearied singer of Scottish songs." The mention of a "pottinger" (apothecary) suggested that there may after all have been a connection with the incident of 1563; what it did not prove was that the ballad is of that period.

The other factor was an article by Andrew Lang in Blackwood's Magazine (September 1895, p. 381 ff.) Lang and Child both felt it unlikely that "a ballad, older and superior in style to anything which we can show to have been produced in the 18th, or even the 17th century, should have been composed after 1719" (the date of the Russian incident involving a Mary Hamilton), and Lang's argument persuaded Child that his earlier, reluctant feeling that the Russian incident had to be the root was now more improbable than the alternative (though also still improbable) explanation; but this is "gut feeling", not firm evidence, and Child reached no firm conclusion (though Joe F implied otherwise earlier on) but left the matter open. This may be the other root of Friedmann's assertion.

All this is scarcely news; everything I have said here was known a century ago, and has been available all along to anybody with a set of Child or access to a decent public library. Nevertheless, things like this have to be repeated from time to time, because so few people read appendices or footnotes; and because so many prefer fakelore to what might actually be true. And we don't know what the truth is here, of course; perhaps the Russian incident involving a Mary Hamilton is just a coincidence, and perhaps it isn't. If we are to look for an answer solely to the time of Queen Mary, however, then the unfortunate heroine was probably not a Hamilton, nor even a Mary; but a Frenchwoman whose name we do not know, far from home and doomed by tragic circumstance.

For little did father or mother wit,
The day they cradled me,
What foreign lands I should travel in,
Or what death I should die.

Child IV 507-8 (version S)

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: LadyJean
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 12:37 AM

Oh happy happy is the maid, whae's born of beauty free
For it was my dimpled and rosy cheeks
That was the end of me.

There's a good deal of consolation in that, at least for some of us.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 10:48 AM

Just a quick point - are all these tunes above in 3/4 or 4/4 time (or at least triple or duple time)?

(My sound card died some time ago and I can't replace it)

Robin

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 12:43 PM

Robin, go to the DT mirror, Yet Another Digital Traditon, and search for maryham* (note asterisk). You'll find sheet music for all four of our tunes.
The Traditional Ballad Index has a substantial entry on this song:

Mary Hamilton [Child 173]

DESCRIPTION: Mary Hamilton, servant to the queen, is pregnant (by the queen's husband). She tries to hide her guilt by casting the boy out to sea, but is seen and convicted. She is condemned to die
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1790
KEYWORDS: pregnancy homicide abandonment punishment execution
HISTORICAL REFERENCES:
1542 - Accession of Mary Stewart
1548 - Mary Stewart sent to France (later married to King Francis II)
1561 - Mary Stewart returns to Scotland
1567 - Death of Lord Darnley. Mary Stewart deposed
FOUND IN: Britain(Scotland(Aber,Bord)) US(Ap,MW,NE,SE,So,SW) Canada(Mar)
REFERENCES (35 citations):
Child 173, "Mary Hamilton" (27 texts, 1 tune) {Bronson's#5}
Bronson 173, "Mary Hamilton" (12 versions+1 in addenda)
BarryEckstormSmyth pp. 258-264, "Mary Hamilton" (2 texts plus some variants and a verse of "Peter Amberley" they claim floated in from this song, 1 tune plus some cited extracts) {Bronson's #7; the first short excerpt is from Bronson's #6}
Randolph 26, "The Four Maries" (1 fragment)
Moore-Southwest 35, "The Four Marys" (1 text, 1 tune)
Owens-1ed, pp. 63-65, "The Four Marys" (1 text, 1 tune) {Bronson's #9}
Owens-2ed, pp. 27-28, "The Four Marys" (1 text, 1 tune)
Flanders/Olney, pp. 79-80, "The Four Marys" (1 text, 1 tune) {Bronson's #7}
Flanders-Ancient3, pp. 163-169, "Mary Hamilton" (2 texts plus a fragment, with the fragment containing parts of "MacPherson's Lament"; 3 tunes) {B=Bronson's #7}
Davis-Ballads 36, "Mary Hamilton" (2 fragments from the same informant, 1 tune) {Bronson's #6}
Davis-More 32, pp. 245-252, "Mary Hamilton" (1 text plus 2 fragments, 1 tune) {Bronson's #8}
Leach, pp. 481-483, "Mary Hamilton" (1 text)
Leach-Heritage, pp. 86-88, "Mary Hamilton (The Four Maries)" (1 text)
Friedman, p. 184, "Mary Hamilton"; p. 219, "Mary Hamilton's Last Goodnight" (2 texts, 1 tune) {Bronson's #6}
Creighton-Maritime, pp. 22-23, "Mary Hamilton" (2 texts, 1 tune)
Creighton-SNewBrunswick 3, "Mary Hamilton" (1 text, 1 tune)
OBB 83, "The Queen's Marie" (1 text)
PBB 61, "Mary Hamilton" (1 text)
Niles 51, "Mary Hamilton" (2 texts, 1 tune)
Gummere, pp. 159-161+334-335, "Mary Hamilton" (1 text)
Combs/Wilgus 32, pp. 124-126, "Mary Hamilton" (1 text)
Hodgart, p. 138, "Marie Hamilton" (1 text)
DBuchan 33, "Mary Hamilton" (1 text)
GreigDuncan2 195, "The Four Maries" (4 texts, 3 tunes) {B=#6, C=#11}
GlenbuchatBallads, pp. 27-29, "The Queen's Mary" (1 text)
Lyle-Crawfurd2 123, "Marie Hamilton" (1 text)
Ord, p. 457, "The Queen's Maries" (1 text)
TBB 23, "Mary Hamilton" (1 text)
HarvClass-EP1, pp. 117-119, "Mary Hamilton" (1 text)
Abrahams/Foss, pp. 49-52, "Mary Hamilton" (2 texts, 1 tune) {Bronson's #6}
Wells, pp. 48-49, "Mary Hamilton" (1 text, 1 tune)
Whitelaw-Ballads, pp. 261-263, "The Queen's Marie"; pp. 263-264, "Mary Hamilton" (2 texts)
Silber-FSWB, p. 211, "The Four Maries" (1 text)
DT 173, MARYHAM1* MARYHAM2 MARYHAM3* MARYHAM4*
ADDITIONAL: Andrew Lang, "The Mystery of 'The Queen's Marie,'" article published 1895 in _Blackwoods Magazine_; republished on pp. 19-28 of Norm Cohen, editor, _All This for a Song_, Southern Folklife Collection, 2009
Roud #79
RECORDINGS:
Jeannie Robertson, "Mary Hamilton (The Four Marys)" (on FSB5 [as "The Four Maries"], FSBBAL2)
ALTERNATE TITLES:
The Purple Dress
Mary Mild
The Duke o' York's Dother
NOTES: Mary Stewart (the French used the spelling "Stuart") became Queen of Scotland when she was eight days old (1542).
Scotland being the chaotic place that it was, she was only a child when she was sent abroad to marry into and be brought up at the court of France (1548). To keep her good company, four well-bred Scots girls were sent with her to keep her company (it should be noted, though, that none of them was named Hamilton). Her husband Francis II died in 1560, however, and Mary Stewart went home.
There she married her cousin, Henry, Lord Darnley. It does not seem to have been an overly happy match, so Darnley might well have engaged in extracurricular activities. In any case, Darnley was murdered in 1567. Soon after, Mary was (forcibly?) married by the Earl of Bothwell; in that same year she was deposed in favor of her son.
Nowhere in her troubled reign do we find reference to a serving girl's pregnancy; one theory has it that the story arose with the troubles of a Mary Hamilton at the Russian court. Another theory, first advanced by Scott, connects it with members of Mary Stuart's court *other than* the four Maries and Lord Darnley.
It also occurs to me that there is the case of the son of George III, who in due time would become George IV. According to Christopher Sinclair-Stevenson, Blood Royal: The Illustrious House of Hanover (Doubleday, 1980), p. 118, Prince George at one time "had fallen in love with Mary Hamilton, one of his sisters' governesses." Whether this is relevant depends of course on the earliest date of the song. There are a number of mentions in the early nineteenth century. If we can push it before about 1780, then of course this Mary Hamilton is out of the question. Of course George IV's Mary Hamilton didn't kill her baby, but her affair with the Prince of Wales might have influenced the character in this song.
For extensive discussion of the matter (which is, however, rather more theoretical than practical) see Davis-More, pp. 246-248. - RBW
Also collected and sung by Ellen Mitchell, "Mary Mild" (on Kevin and Ellen Mitchell, "Have a Drop Mair," Musical Tradition Records MTCD315-6 CD (2001)) - BS
Last updated in version 3.5
File: C173

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Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 12:55 PM

Does anyone have a source for the Mary Hamilton name in the Russian part of the account? I only have the story in S W Scott's Minstrelsy Of The Border, where he quotes "a correspondent" who tells in detail the tale of "Miss Hambleton, a maid of honour to Empress Catherine." Does Child have a source for a Miss Hamilton instead? I really need this information, as a new encyclopaedia entry may need correction.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Joe_F
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 02:41 PM

Ewan McVicar: Quite a few sources, summarized in the review article "Maid-of-Honour Hamilton" by M. I. Semefsky, in _Slovo i Dyelo_ (Word and Deed), St Petersburg, 1885. Child summarizes the article at some length: "When the Hamiltons first came to Russia does not appear. Artemon Sergheievitch Matveief, a distinguished personage,... married a Hamilton, of a Scottish family settled at Moscow, after which the Hamilton family ranked with the aristocracy."

I suppose the name would have become "Gamil'ton" in Russian.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 08:48 PM

When I saw this thread I thought it was about the four (or was it three) Mary's in the Bunty comic! sorry. Carry on.

Sal

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: LadyJean
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 12:07 AM

I believe Mary Stuart's maids were named Mary Seaton, Mary Beaton, Mary Livingstone, and Mary Hamilton. This is from Antonia Fraser's biography, and I don't put a lot of faith in popular historians.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 12:48 PM

Joe,
Thhanks indeed. The Ballad List supplied more chapter and verse on this. Still don't know why Sir Walter spelt it his way.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 01:44 PM

Ewan, the Scottish word 'hamble' means 'title to or right of possession or belonging to the home' and is also the same as 'hamelt' so one can only guess that walter Scott might have been using the old word??
Jim