Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?

Subject: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: Cod Fiddler
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 11:29 AM

I need some help! I want to play with an Italian pianist who interprets the stave as do re mi fa so la ti do. Consequently, I can't write the chords above a tune as G, D, Am, D7 as they are meaningless in Italian. Can anyone tell me how to convert chords into tonic sol fa? Any help greatly appreciated.

Richard.

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: Scrump
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 11:46 AM

AFAIK do, re, mi, etc., are used to represent the notes of the major scale but independent of key, so for example, in the key of C:

do=C, re=D, mi=E, fa=F, etc.

And in G: do=G, re=A, mi=B, fa=C, etc. (...ti would be F#)

So there isn't a direct translation between tonic sol fa notation and keys. Unless someone else know different?

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: MMario
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 11:53 AM

I've been checking the web and can't find anything about chord representation in tonic sol-fa.

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 12:38 PM

I think automatically in terms of tonic solfa, I can sing the tonic solfa notes of any tune straight off the top of my head, but I am amazed that any pianist uses this system. Is this the rule or the exception in Italy ?

It all depends whether he thinks in terms of relative notes which is what tonic solfa is all about, or whether he actually identifies each note on the stave with a corresponding tonic solfa note, so that for example doh=C, de =C#, ray=D, e=D#,mi=E,fah=F,fe=F#, soh=G,se=G#,lah=A, and ta=B flat.

Then you would just write the appropriate chord above the line, except you would use the solfa nomenclature.

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 12:39 PM

missed out ti=B

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 02:21 PM

Italians. like French people, use the do re mi names for CDE etc. I am not sure of the precise Italian terms for major and minor, but the chords are named according to sol fa. So, for example, G7= Sol7. C = doh. B flat = Si flat. F#=Fa#You'll need to find out how to write major and minor, but this should give you the general idea.

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: Cod Fiddler
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 02:31 PM

I have an answer now.

I have now talked to the pianist in question, who is a full on diploma-waving concert pianist. Scrump is correct, however the system he discribes is known as Doh Mobile, and is now taught to Italian children. For my pianist, Doh is always C, C# is "Doh diesis" and Bb is "Si Bemolle" etc.

Just to add to the mayhem, the Italians say "doh re mi fa so la SI do". No tea with jam and bread for them! All I can say is God help them!

Richard.

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 06:17 PM

You are NOT asking for conversion to tonic solfa - that replaces the entire system of staff notation with an alphabetic one using a special font. It's still heavily used by Gaelic singers but nit much by anybody else.

If all you want to do is replace chord names, use an ABC system with a flexible text editor that can do search and replace (BarFly for the Mac can do that). Lilypond could probably do it too.

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: GUEST,Donald
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 04:38 AM

Richard
Nice to see you again - how the devil are you? We enjoyed a great night up at Kirkymoorside with Ged&Steve last month at the Moor festival - but missed your playing!

But to the point - here is some more feedback from the mustard board:

http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/11593

Cheers
Donald

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: Scrump
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 04:59 AM

Just to add to the mayhem, the Italians say "doh re mi fa so la SI do". No tea with jam and bread for them! All I can say is God help them!

How about: "Si - a thing landlubbers dread"?

But I'm sure you can do better! Let's hear your alternative lines (sorry it's not on topic, OP!)

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: pavane
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 07:27 AM

Just a note (!)

It may not be relevant to the original question, but my program HARMONY can automatically display the tonic solfa note names below the notes on the staff (i.e. as an alternative to lyrics).

Download a fully functional but time-limited copy from My site, www.greenhedges.com

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: Cod Fiddler
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 07:38 AM

No Jack Campin, She can sight read normal stave notation like a dream. What she doesn't understand is the guitar notation above a melody, which will give her the basis for accompaniment. I'm afraid I can't understand ABC notation, but I think we're sorted now.

Hello Donald! I'm fine thank you. I have completed my thesis and I'm within a gnat's whisker of submitting it. I'm sorry I missed the festival on the moor. I really miss Beverley and its pubs and I haven't really discovered the folk scene in Northants yet - a consequence of getting a television and being so happy to be with my true love that I haven't felt the need to trawl the local pubs seeking music. We are going to hear Last Night's Fun in November though! Thanks for asking at The Session. I hope you're well and that we meet for a tune soon.

Scrump, I can't beat "Si - a thing landlubbers dread". I'll give it some thought...

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: Cod Fiddler
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 08:25 AM

Nice Software Pavane! Unfortunately, your software uses the modern Doh Mobile system, which Italian children now understand. Sadly, for my pianist, C is always Doh, which confuses things if your playing in any key other than C!

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: pavane
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 12:04 PM

I am not sure whether I have put that in as an option somewhere - but if not, I could easily add it if you wanted.

(Actually, this can be viewed as a classic case of absolute versus relative addressing. DOH, or UT, was originally a fixed note, but later came to represent the tonic of whichever key you are using)

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: Bert
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 03:20 PM

I, IV, V7.

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: pavane
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 08:17 AM

Not if you in a non-Major mode

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: GUEST,AlunWern
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 12:30 PM

To make things even more complicated I wish to convert sol fa to notation so that i can use them as midis

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: Cruiser
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 01:59 PM

What an excellent solfege discussion that is emblematic of what this great website forum has to offer!

I do a daily solfege voice practice where I go up and down the musical scale using all the sharps and flats in all keys, backward and forwards. It is a great way to warm up before singing.

I yodel, but have so far have been unable to yodel in solfege!

I will check out your program pavane. It seems that you are willing to modify it for specific uses and users, correct?

Thanks for a musicological discussion on a neat subject.

Cruiser

_____________________________________________________________________

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: Joe_F
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 10:05 PM

Si for ti? Shocking. In my book, the chromatic scale is do di re ri mi fa fi sol si la li ti do. (Convenient that the semitones in the major scale follow notes whose names already end in i.)

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: GUEST,Helpful Guest
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 07:26 AM

Joe, you appear to have missed out a "ta" between "ti" and "do"

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: GUEST,Helpful Guest
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 07:28 AM

Oops, should have read more carefully.

What you are calling "li" I would call "ta"

You're sharping, I'm flatting.

Chacun a son gout ...

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 07:05 AM

Good people
I have seen all your omments and I pretty much sure that you all know what you're talking about.
Can any one tell me where to find a book that teaches tonic solfa?
I would like to convert some stuff from solfego to tonic solfa, all I need is basic concepts,definnitions on tonic solfa, if I could find a book.

Thank you

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 09:20 AM

John Curwen, _Standard Course in the Tonic Sol-Fa Method_.

Umpteen editions from 1858 onwards, I have the 1901 7th edition. It's probably been scanned for the web by now.

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 12:06 PM

Yes, it has. See  Tonic Sol-Fa at the Internet Archive. The link will retrieve facsimiles of several introductions to the system, including Curwen in both English and Welsh.

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: GUEST,kemi
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 01:47 PM

I need an easy way tom tranlate songs to toni sol fa

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: pavane
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 03:40 AM

See my previous post above:

"my program HARMONY can automatically display the tonic solfa note names below the notes on the staff (i.e. as an alternative to lyrics)."

Download a fully functional but time-limited copy from my site

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: pavane
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 03:43 AM

It can also import tunes and songs from a number of formats, including abc and MIDI.

(I don't think anyone has yet cracked the problem of importing actual sound recordings like CD, WAV or MP3 into notation)

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: Darowyn
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 04:15 AM

(I don't think anyone has yet cracked the problem of importing actual sound recordings like CD, WAV or MP3 into notation)
I find that Melodyne, a pitch and timing correction programme does a good job at generating score from audio.
My version is just for a single line, but the latest version can analyse and score chords too.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: pavane
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 05:44 AM

I have tried several programs which claimed to do this, but found nothing yet usable in the real world, even the ones for a single line.

Will look at Melodyne, but does it produce anything other than a score? It isn't really practicable to feed a score into a program. Needs to create it in a format such as abc, MIDI, etc.

I do remember trying a program which would scan a score with OCR and create a MIDI, but made too many scanning errors to be useful. (Amazing how much it DID recognise and convert, though)

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: GUEST,Nooky Cook
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 10:09 AM

I have found a teacher's handbook and have been learning tonic sol-fah from it. Its on scribd.com and is called "hymn accompaniment - tonic sol-fa system"

And I have a virtual piano open too to check doh-ti is in tune!

:) Jt

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: GUEST,malagasy
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 04:28 AM

Hi Pavane,
I've tried your soft. Excellent work.
But we can't :
- change the tonic solfa type of notation (d, di, r, ri, m, f, fi, sol, si, l, ta, t, d') instead of your actual notation (DOH, DEW, ....). Is it possible to chnage that?
- if the key change from C to G for example, how to affect the "new C" or the "new Do" to the G note? Normally, it's the rule in Tonic sol-fa, when the key is changing, the have a new Do according to the new key of the song.

Thanks.

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: pavane
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 04:57 AM

I will have a look to see how much work it would be - probably not very much.

The program does not reset the Doh for key changes within tune, if that is what you mean. I can see that perhaps it should - I can look at this too. But not for a few days, as I have urgent things to do (Like VAT return and annual accounts) which have approaching deadlines.

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: pavane
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 09:32 AM

If you haven't heard back from me in a couple of weeks, please remind me.

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: GUEST,malagasy
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 09:52 AM

Thank you for your interest Pavane,
Keep up the good work. I will note in my agenda and will remind you.

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 09:01 AM

My Dad taught me 'Do Re Mi Fa So La Ti Do' going up and 'I lost my knickers in the snow' going down!


It proved invaluable in learning songs and tunes in any key once I worked out minors and modes.


Would a three chord trick be e.g. Doh I, IV,V


What do 'European' folkies and rockers call chords we call C, F, G7 etc? ( apart from 'seemples' just to preempt the wisecrackers)

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: GUEST,Dee
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 05:51 PM

to think this conversation began 2006. I sing in solfa and can't read staff notes, so i'm looking for ways to transcribe notes to solfa. When i sight sing its a guessing game and i don't actually learn the song unlike when i learn my doh-ti-dohs and lah-tah-lahs...

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: GUEST,malagasy
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 10:44 AM

Hi Pavane,
I'm here to remind you. Have you finally find the way how to make my suggestion in your application?

Thanks.

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: pavane
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 08:28 AM

Thanks for the reminder. Haven't been able to do anything yet, as I thought I had a virus on the laptop - turns out it was on the router, not the laptop - see my Google thread.

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: pavane
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 12:26 PM

Your question
- change the tonic solfa type of notation (d, di, r, ri, m, f, fi, sol, si, l, ta, t, d') instead of your actual notation (DOH, DEW, ....). Is it possible to change that?

It looks to me as if Doh Raw Ray Maw Me should be used for FLAT keys, i.e. keys with a flat in the signature, and Doh Di Ray Ri should used for SHARP keys (and C).

That it what the program is supposed to do, but it doesn't seem to be working correctly.

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: GUEST,Nice thread
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 11:33 AM

really how do u pronounce doh desis dats Csharp and B flat using the fixed doh...cos I happened to learn to read music the solfege type as is in the "The Sound of Music".

Subject: I need help on midi hexadecimal values
From: GUEST,Olu
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 08:14 AM

below is twinkle little star tonic sol fa= d:d:s:s:l:l:s:f:f:m:m:r:r:d in midi hexadecimal. I need to discern the note numbers from 4D 54 68 64 00 00 00 06 00 00 00 01 00 80 4D 54
72 6B 00 00 00 8C 00 FF 58 04 04 02 30 08 00 FF
48 02 00 00 00 90 3C 28 81 00 90 3C 00 00 90 3C
1E 81 00 90 3C 00 00 90 43 2D 81 00 90 43 00 00
90 43 32 81 00 90 43 00 00 90 45 2D 81 00 90 45
00 00 90 45 23 81 00 90 45 00 00 90 43 23 82 00
90 43 00 00 90 41 32 81 00 90 41 00 00 90 41 2D
81 00 90 41 00 00 90 40 32 40 90 40 00 40 90 40
28 40 90 40 00 40 90 3E 2D 40 90 3E 00 40 90 3E
32 40 90 3E 00 40 90 3C 1E 82 00 90 3C 00 00 FF
2F 00         ... Can anyone help me out?

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 11:24 AM

westerville college for boys and girls seat of wisdom and knowledge

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: GUEST,dydx
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 03:09 PM

I learnt playing guitar and keyboard with tunny solfar.... how do I study note reading....

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 11:01 PM

This thread used to baffle me, but two weeks ago I bought an old book of songs for the concertina. It has 250 songs in it, and 245 of them are in the key of C.

If you throw out the 5 songs in the key of G, then you can say that "do = C, and re = Dm, mi = Em," etc. It works if everything in your repertoire is in C.

I don't know what anybody's supposed to do if they want to play (for example) in the key of A or F.

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 03:08 AM

The reason the Continent has so few folkies is our tunes are modal, and that can be described in modal solfege, where the solfege note is relative to the key. We can say the third above the tonic, in solfege Mi, but the Continentals understand Mi as always being E in the CMaj scale. They cannot then get their heads around Mi being the same interval in another key, want to say, oh, but that's Re mol, and then have nothing left to handle modal scales.

I don't know who started it, but they deserve to be incribed in the Devil's Little Black Book.

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 05:04 AM

That's nonsense. Sol-fa can represent any chromatic note. It's easier to represent a variety of keys with the movable-do system but fixed-do will work too. Modality doesn't come into it (and there is essentially no difference between national practices in modality across the traditions of Western Europe anyway).

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 03:50 AM

But the simple reality is they don't teach moveable-do because it's too mind-twisting, Jack. As it is in the Belgian school system, they insist on a year's fixed-do theory before even touching an instrument: I think it's a way of thinning out the field as there's not enough instruments to go around. When you start talking modes to experienced Belgian folkies, a glazed look of horror passes over their faces when they realise they have to raise anchor and work in relative intervals. Sure, they've heard of modes, but don't dare set foot there lest their theory becomes self-consuming.

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 03:58 PM

In the 50s Edinburgh we were taught the tonic so fa aged 6. My memory is that a sharp on a line equates to a t in any key and a flat equates to a fa.Working up from the t you look at the placement of do' and then apply normal egbdf or face to tell you which key the piece is in.
I never progressed to proper sight reading and the tonic so fa is very useful if you sing as it gives the intervals between the notes. It is very simple to transpose any song into a suitable key.

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 01:01 PM

The most reasonable international approach would be to label chords with Roman numerals with the type of chord as an (exponent) with arabic numbers.

For example, Roman numeral "I" with a maj7 would be I maj7.
In the key of C, "I" would be C, G7 would be V7, Eb would be bIII. C# would be #II.

Most musicians internationally use this type of nomenclature bypassing the need
for a fixed or movable "do" to express chords.

Subject: RE: Tech: Conversion to Tonic Sol Fa?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 08:01 AM

Lydian, Oh Lydian,
Has anyone heard Lydian?
Lydian the Modal Lady...