singer/songwriter the moral guardians

Subject: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: Shaneo
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 02:25 PM

Are the singers / songwriters the moral guardians of our countries ?
It would appear that the public will listen to a singer / songwriter
like Bob Dylan and Christy Moore for example more than a politician.
When an individual or community are hard done by , by the state then
along comes a folk song to tell of the injustice.
There are hundreds of these songs out there that stir the heart
of the listener more so than a politician ever could and this has been going on for hundreds of years.
This has been on my mind for a long time and I would like your input

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 02:57 PM

well, sorry to be pessimistic but if "Imagine" and "Masters of war" and countless others didn't do it I don't think a song is ever going to change the world. A good safety valve though. And where is Phil Ochs when you need him? Is America ringing to the sound of "I ain't marching anymore?"

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 03:00 PM

Songwriters really have nothing to lose. Their "consitutents" are different from a politicans. If a songwriter "loses", they have another gig the following night to recover. A politician loses and they need to find other ways to serve.

It also depends on the politician. You can point to speeches from Martin Luther King, JFK, and others as having greater impact than any song from Dylan.

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 03:10 PM

Jon Loomes points out (wisely I think) that when the tradition has nothing to say on the subject he may consider writing....

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: alanabit
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 03:32 PM

Perhaps the major difference between a songwriter's perspective and a politician's, is that the latter is obliged to draw a conclusion. For a songwriter, it is quite enough to describe an event and allow the listener to. I don't really see songwriters as moral guardians. Most of us have gone beyond that nonsense of believing that we are somehow more precious and sensitive than other mortals. I see our job as a bit like that of a good journalist. You try to provide the facts, so that the listeners can make up their own minds.

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: Amos
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 03:52 PM

SOngwriters are in a fineposition to call BS when BS is being flogged. That's one of the things WOody was good at, and Dylan also. No question.

If they act as moral guardians in some small measure by doing so, more power to them, but I don't think it is an inherent role or even one they fill completely. The duty is much more on the shoulders of the fourth estate, who have been sadly remiss in fulfilling it because they are wrapped in the python-coils of larger corporation and its necrotic management visions.

A

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 04:08 PM

Thinking about this a bit more.   It is interesting that actors often become politicians, but I can't think of a single musician who has made the jump to politics - unless I am forgetting someone?

(No, I would not count Bill Clinton's saxophone as a musical career.)

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: Ernest
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 04:41 PM

Alan got it right in my opinion. Songwriters are not morally superior to other men - they might be better in putting words together (which is not that far from rhetorical abilities of politicians),
but that does not mean that they are naturally right. And they don`t have to come up with a solution - and if they do, there is practically no risk that it will be tested and dismissed because it doesn`t work (which happens to politicians).

Success has less to do with it than you might think. People are able to distinguish between a song and the singer. We had threads here where people said that they liked the music of someone but didn`t agree with his political views.

If a song becomes successful in the understanding that he has an influence in changing things it might be that it just is a good expression for a thought that is already in the mind of the public.
Otherwise it is just like Kurt Vonnegut wrote in the preface to one of his books (this is quoted from memory, thus not an exact quotation): "writing an anti-war novel is just like writing a novel against glaciers: it won`t change a thing".

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 04:43 PM

"If a song becomes successful in the understanding that he has an influence in changing things it might be that it just is a good expression for a thought that is already in the mind of the public."

It can also serve a more important function - bringing people together. I can think of "We Shall Overcome" and the effect on the civil rights movement and the role labor songs played on picket lines during the early part of the 20th century.

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: Ernest
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 04:44 PM

Ron: maybe that is because musicians don`t know what to to with their hands when they can`t put them on an instrument? ;0)

Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: Amos
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 04:46 PM

Saw a photo of Bush with a gitar one time. But he was holdin' it wrong, so I guess that don't count, huh?


A

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 04:55 PM

One of our fellow Mudcatters, who I assume wishes to be anonymous, sent me a PM and mentioned Sonny Bono and "Mick Groves.........ex The Spinners (the Liverpool variety) has been a Labour councillor for years since the group disbanded".

I don't know much about Mick Groves, but Sonny Bono is a great mention!   He was a good writer, performer, promoter and actor as well. While he did not serve my part of the country, I've heard he was a decent congressman who served his consitutents proudly.

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 05:03 PM

oh... and Kinky Friedman is certainly stirring things up in Texas!

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 05:20 PM

Well, we have Glenda Jackson as possibly our only example of film star actor turned politician in the UK. And before that there was Andrew Faulds, whom I vaguely remember appearing in Lorna Doone on TV when I was young.

Successful singers, on the whole, don't go into politics, (otherwise folk music might get a better deal for grants etc?) but Michael Ancram apparently has been known to sing folk songs, and Charles Kennedy's dad was a piper.

Kitty

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: LesB
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 05:58 PM

I'm a bit dubious of anyone being considered a 'moral guardian'. Songwriters can observe & comment and express opinons. But i don't want anyone to tell me what I should think, or do, or how to behave.
That's why I don't go to see Dick Gaughen.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: GUEST,zulu
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 06:56 PM

Singer/songwiters move,shake and rattle people into thinking thoughts on other levels.They can bridge gaps and reach places all the talk/preaching in the world cannot reach.As far as politics goes,there is no deviding line as to what a Tory or a Communist will listen to.However a song can change the way we act,or in what we say in future.The power of the singer/songwriter scares political/ religeous leaders worldwide,always has and always will.

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: Darowyn
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 07:12 PM

Imagine the scene in the Cabinet room.
Crises are springing up everywhere.
World shaking decisions are being made.
There is a commotion outside the door.
"Let me through, I'm a songwriter" is the muffled cry.
The world leaders give a sigh of relief.
"Thank God, now everything will be alright" the cry out in unison.
How's that for the strangest dream!
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: pdq
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 07:25 PM

"ready...aim...sing!"

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: Peace
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 07:29 PM

Writing songs don't make someone a moral guardian any more than drivin' a car makes ya a mechanic.

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: Nick
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 10:27 PM

Parents are the moral guardians of the world if they choose to be

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: Nick
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 10:38 PM

Les B

I go and see Dick Gaughan because I love his passion and his sense that he knows where he is in the world. The last time I saw him I realised that everything that he sang had a purpose for him.

I grew up in a very different world and my politics only move closer to his as I get older (his probably don't move towards mine) but I realise how important it is to sing what you feel and believe (unless you (just) want people to dance which is fun too) and I wish sometimes I'd remember that when I try and sing.

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: LesB
Date: 28 Oct 06 - 07:46 AM

Nick, I understand the passion & I respect him for it. I don't mind being persuaded but I don't like being preached to. Last time I saw him at a folk club I think it worked out at 6 songs in 2 45min sets. Besides I can only understand one word in three that he says.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Oct 06 - 08:21 AM

Can we be really really glad that Tony B. Liar has not re-formed "Ugly rumour" and started taking it round the folkclubs?

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 28 Oct 06 - 08:34 AM

With talk radio and news TV, there's a lot of BS everywhere. It's hard to fathom a songwriter would have as much effect in the political arena.

If a song became very popular there's a chance it may be an effective political tool.

Take "Holiday" by Green Day. Most of my students have little or no idea what the song is about even tho it's popular.

Richie

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 28 Oct 06 - 09:13 AM

Ron Olesko said "Songwriters really have nothing to lose. Their "constituents" are different from a politicans. If a songwriter "loses", they have another gig the following night to recover. A politician loses and they need to find other ways to serve."

Sorry Ron, I have to disagree. A songwriter's "next gig" will always depend on his/her last (few) song(s) or performance(s) - otherwise his/her currency starts to go. And a songwriter through the songs puts his/her beliefs and personality out on full display with no excuses. A politician however can always hide behind the party line and many have made spectacular comebacks after one or even more major "losses", whether political or even ethical. I have UK examples in mind - Jack Straw, Prescott, David Blunkett...

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 28 Oct 06 - 09:14 AM

I should have said - I agree that Alan has it right.

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 28 Oct 06 - 09:51 AM

Just wondering George,if you have something to say and your audience will probably not want to hear it,do you say it anyway(IN Song!)
Buy this guys CD's and throw away your pens.

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 28 Oct 06 - 01:37 PM

I do, Tim. Example: the song "Sangatte" on Life As Usual. I was told not to sing it in clubs as opinion about the escaping refugees coming through the channel tunnel was divided at the time. Sod it I thought, so I put it on the album.

I don't set out to say things other people want to hear. I say things that I myself want to hear - things I wish somebody would write about; things I care about. And I hope that others will latch on. Generally, I find that people do latch on. So far, at least.

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: alanabit
Date: 28 Oct 06 - 02:30 PM

Actually George, I think you have hit on something there which is part of our responsibility. I have not heard "Sangatte" yet. However, if I have measured you up at all, I reckon you would choose to give voice to the people trying to get through.
I don't have to like all the characters I write about, but I am trying to voice the thoughts of many, who do not often get a hearing at all. In the sort of songs we care about, we listen to everyone - the good, the bad, the confused, the virtuous and in fact the whole spectrum of humanity. Sam Hall is a defiant, unrepentant bastard, but he has the magnificent courage of MacBeth to face his destiny. I don't think it quite makes us moral guardians, but I do like writers, who show real people. So many people, whom we dismiss as "ordinary", have done the most extraordinary things.

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: Deskjet
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 04:16 AM

Just want to make a quick buck and get laid.

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 04:26 AM

Nowt wrong with that, of course. Still, I don't think that is what I will be buying!

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: Deskjet
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 04:34 AM

Alanabit, I don't understand your second sentence.

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 07:00 AM

Deskjet. I am not putting down those who write solely for money. I am just commenting that if I think that is their only aim, I will not be one of their customers.

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 07:07 AM

I suspect Deskjet's tongue was firmly in his/her cheek, though, Alan. Though I have heard stranger reasons for songwriting, the ones stated here are unattainable for most of us. Well, the money one anyway (The other one too! - Nessie).

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: Deskjet
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 08:09 AM

In a more serious vein, I'd like to say that the moral tone of a song is secondary to it's aesthetic impact.
i.e. Does it work as a song?
If not, no amount of moral worthiness can make up for it's lack of "being a good song".
Irreverence is part of the armoury of all artists.

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 08:22 AM

"In a more serious vein, I'd like to say that the moral tone of a song is secondary to it's aesthetic impact.
i.e. Does it work as a song?"
That is one of the best quotes I have seen on Mudcat for some time.

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 10:48 AM

Indeed - nice one, Deskjet.

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 01:34 PM

Deskjet hits the nail on the head. There are many songs I have had to sit through in folk clubs that have a morally unchallengeable point, but they are so badly written that they offend. It is not enough to say "this is a song about how I feel about this issue". Don't hit me over the head with it, don't pontificate, don't preach..tell me a story that will take me to a place where I can see what you see and that makes me sympathetic to your viewpoint.
And learn the discipline of lyric writing. As someone I know once said it's all about saying the most in the least. A song about a detail in three verses can often tell more than a complete picture in eight.

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: Arkie
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 06:30 PM

Singer songwriters are not always right, but there are some comtemporary writers singing out.   Here is sample number one. About midway down the page in little green letters click on "Listen Now".   There could be some surprises here

Music Row Democrats

There is also a three volume set of CDs called Hail to the Thieves: Songs to Take Our Country Back with tracks from the likes of Utah Phillips and others. The link below takes you to one of the songs on Volume III, John Lilly's "W".

http://home.att.net/~jflilly/w.html

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: Arkie
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 06:32 PM

I did something wrong with the second link but if anyone is interested you can copy and paste.

Subject: RE: singer/songwriter the moral guardians
From: Shaneo
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 07:31 AM

Thanks all for the feed -back , I am now a wiser man , but not as wise as some of you , Tá go maith