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Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig...
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Subject: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: Bobert Date: 28 Oct 06 - 08:28 AM Well, well, well... About 6 weeks ago I contacted a winery that had advertised a blue festival for today to inquire about playing and the person who I spokwe with said, "We'd love to have you play..." Since then I have sent them a couple emails to confirm their desire to have me perform (one as recet as 3 days ago) but have heard nuthin' back from them at all... Now, this festival is a 3 1/2 drive from here and all I get when I call the phone number is a recording which I have not left message on so... Am I obligated to drive 3 1/2 danged hours to this winery having not heard anything since the one phone call I recieved??? I think not but would like to hear what others have to say... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: kendall Date: 28 Oct 06 - 08:32 AM Do you have a contract? Is it a paid gig? Do you have recourse if they back out? Just on what you have said, I would not do it. Too many civilians seem to think musicians are sub human and may be taken for granted. |
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Subject: RE: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: greg stephens Date: 28 Oct 06 - 08:35 AM Look them up on the internet and see if they are advertising you, Bobert. But I think the answer to your problem lies in your attitude: do you want to go to the festival, even if it turns out you're not on the bill? Maybe you're better off staying home, opening a beer and listening to a Boat Band CD. |
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Subject: RE: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: treewind Date: 28 Oct 06 - 08:36 AM You have no obligation at all. Don't go unless you'd like to drive that far to just visit the festival anyway and find you're not expected to perform. Anahata |
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Subject: RE: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: GUEST,Richie Date: 28 Oct 06 - 08:43 AM Sounds like you needed to contact them again (but earlier) and get details including performance time etc. You also need to get a cell phone or other contact info when you reach an agreement. If it's a non-paying gig anyway and they said you could play "without sending a CD or PR info" I would not go unless I had nothing else to do. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 28 Oct 06 - 08:58 AM They haven't confirmed it, in spite of your asking them to more than once. Also "we'd love to have you play..." doesn't necessarily bespeak a firm commitment. Too often that sort of statement is followed by the Great Unspoken But... (as in, we-can't-pay-you / the-programme-is-already-full / you'll-have-to-do-all-the-admin-&-PR-work-yourself, etc etc etc). I wouldn't regard it as a dilemma at all, much less an ethical one. They've shown the amount of interest they have in this gig. Unless you're legally bound in some way, my suggestion would be to return the compliment. |
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Subject: RE: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: GUEST Date: 28 Oct 06 - 09:02 AM But if you're not going to show it wouldn't harm to leave a message and tell them why. That way if they were expecting you they can make apologies. Cover all bases. |
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Subject: RE: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 28 Oct 06 - 09:06 AM Good point, Guest! Shoulda thought of that myself... |
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Subject: RE: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: Bobert Date: 28 Oct 06 - 09:15 AM Yeah, thanks, folks... Think I'll juust send 'um another email for them to ignore... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: greg stephens Date: 28 Oct 06 - 10:09 AM You haven't said who is playing at the festival, Bobert. This could be important information in deciding whether to go or not. If they've got Robert Johnson, Pink Anderson or Blind Willie Walker, I'd say "Go!" |
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Subject: RE: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: Richard Bridge Date: 28 Oct 06 - 10:35 AM If they've got Robert Johnson you might have some trouble getting home again.... |
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Subject: RE: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 28 Oct 06 - 10:39 PM ALWAYS - print the e-mail responce.
ALSO Under PROPERTIES print the pathway and connecting subject data.
For a PAID gig....ALWAYS....immediately followup with a live phone call and confirm the price, the place, the pieces, the payment (always payment before playing and preferably in cash)
If you cannot manage these details yourself, consider a LOCAL agent in your IMMEDIATE community and negotiate a commission of 25%.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 28 Oct 06 - 10:45 PM Bobert....you of ALL folkies....should be originating a thread.... RE:Shaking a Shekle through a Sheehan.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 28 Oct 06 - 10:51 PM Personally, I love winery gigs. In addition to room and board....they usually bless you with as many cases as you can carry away. It is worth renting a van.
Sincerely,
I will recommend you to the "black list" for harvest 2007...sorry you don't like the commerce of agricultiural time-lines...but many of use purchase Christmas presents from the boutiful overflow of the grape-crush. |
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Subject: RE: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: GUEST Date: 28 Oct 06 - 11:03 PM = This does not qualify as an ethical dilemma. You don't have a gig. Don't waste your gasoline. |
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Subject: RE: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: Artful Codger Date: 28 Oct 06 - 11:58 PM The only unethical part is not having left a message (even though they failed to respond to your earlier emails.) Answering machines are there for a purpose; USE them. Don't assume everyone else should be instantly available at your convenience. Rant follows: I get quite torqued at people who call and don't leave a message, particularly when they repeat-call frequently and STILL won't leave a message. It is disruptive. A phone caller should respect the relative priorities of other people, which do NOT obligate them to interrupt whatever they're doing whenever the phone rings (or nowadays, plays some wanking ringtone.) If you feel sufficiently compelled to dial someone's number, it is only common courtesy to let them know who you are and why you called, when they provide you the opportunity. This overrides any qualms or dislikes you may have about answering machines. |
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Subject: RE: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: GUEST Date: 29 Oct 06 - 10:37 AM Once again, not leaving a voice mail message is not an ethics issue. He sent two unanswered emails. Then he calls and gets no answer. He doesn't have to leave a voice mail. Just like they don't have to answer their phone. Neither party has more obligation than the other. |
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Subject: RE: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: Clinton Hammond Date: 29 Oct 06 - 10:46 AM " I'll juust send 'um another email for them to ignore..." Just like you ignored their answering machine... Sounds to me like you don't WANT this gig... Sounds to me like they don't want you to have it either. |
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Subject: RE: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: Jim Dixon Date: 01 Nov 06 - 09:16 PM Sorry I came to this thread late, but I just now found it. I can't say for certain what you should do without knowing more about what was said in that original conversation. You wrote:
If "we'd love you have you play" is ALL they said, then I'd say you don't have a contract. If, on the other hand, they told you a specific time and place they wanted you to play, and (especially important) if they told you a specific dollar amount that you would be paid (or, equivalently, a specific formula by which an amount would be calculated), and you told them you agreed to it, then you DO have a contract. Sure, it's an oral contract, but an oral contract IS a contract nonetheless. If it bothers you that they seem a bit disorganized, then I'd say cut them some slack. Festivals like this are often organized (to use the term loosely) by volunteers. Sometimes the volunteers are inexperienced. Sometimes they don't communicate very well with one another. Maybe the person who contacted you expects someone else to follow through and contact you again. Maybe they lost your phone number. Who knows? If they are acting like amateurs, then it behooves YOU to act like the professional, and guide them through the process. Call them and tell them, politely, what you need in the way of confirmation and/or instructions and/or payment. And I agree completely with everything Artful Codger says about answering machines. |
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Subject: RE: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: JedMarum Date: 01 Nov 06 - 09:37 PM The email is maybe not being SEEN. They be getting o many right now, they are not seeing yours requesting a confirmation. OR the emails may be being SPAM filtered and as such yours are actually not even reaching human eyes. Eamil is the very lowest level of human communication. Leave a voice message, syaing that you are confirming your engagement. You'll be there at a specific time (make it at least one hour before they open their doors to the public. Leave a cell phone number and tell 'em to call you if they need you. Now - if the guy who said he wanted you is no longer involved, opened his mouth when he shouldn;t have or is otherwise ignoring you - will have to speak up. They think you'll be on their doorstep, expecting to perform. They'l put up or shut up. Actually it sounds like fun. |
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Subject: RE: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Nov 06 - 09:42 PM I'd go with Jed's approach. He's got the experience and the graciousness to back it up. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: GUEST,memyself Date: 01 Nov 06 - 10:08 PM "Now - if the guy who said he wanted you is no longer involved, opened his mouth when he shouldn;t have or is otherwise ignoring you - will have to speak up. They think you'll be on their doorstep, expecting to perform. They'l put up or shut up." If "the guy" is no longer involved, he's unlikely to speak up. He's somewhere else. And what makes you so certain the rest of them will put up or shut up? My suspicion is that they'll just let buddy show up, then look surprised, then tell him if wants to hang around till midnight, when all the booked acts are finished, he can play for the stragglers while the volunteers pack up the sound equipment and slam the tables and chairs around. If there's some left over food, he might even get a free sandwich. |
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Subject: RE: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: Don Firth Date: 01 Nov 06 - 10:23 PM I think what I would do in this situation is both e-mail them and phone them, leaving a voice-mail message, and tell them that you've tried several times to contact them for confirmation of the engagement, and so far, they haven't responded. If they don't respond and confirm the engagement this time, you will not be there. Not responding is just rude. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: kendall Date: 01 Nov 06 - 10:30 PM Picking at what was said, you don't even have a verbal contract. It sounds like they are saying let's have lunch sometime. |
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Subject: RE: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: DADGBE Date: 02 Nov 06 - 12:23 AM If you're in the business of selling your musical services, it's time to look at the problem from a business viewpoint. Services are provided persuant to a contract which states in detail the obligations of both parties. Without a contract signed by both the buyer and the seller of the service, there is no obligation incurred either to provide the service or to pay for it. |
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Subject: RE: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: Rowan Date: 02 Nov 06 - 12:36 AM Some of the discussion reminds me of the joke played on the new apprentice. Each trade has one; painters send you for a can of striped paint, electricians send you for a left-handed screwdriver, plumbers send you for a long wait. In offices with bankers, insurance companies or solicitors you're likely to be sent to the office around the corner for a Verbal Agreement Form. With Plenty Morris we never had the problem described by Bobert when we were invited to spend Queen's Birthday Weekend at Morris' Winery. No money was on offer but each of us had our choice of a bottle of anything in their cellar. Well worth the gig. Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: EBarnacle Date: 02 Nov 06 - 11:45 AM If they are ignoring you now, why should you expect to be treated better once you get there, even if they expect you? |
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Subject: RE: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: Mo the caller Date: 02 Nov 06 - 11:49 AM Did you go? |
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Subject: RE: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: Don Firth Date: 02 Nov 06 - 11:57 AM Totally off the subject, but following up on Rowan's post. Longer ago that I really care to remember, I was at a Boy Scout summer camp. There was a Sea Scout division at the camp, and some of the guys took perverse pleasure in sending the newcomers to the camp on wild goose chases. A couple of older Sea Scouts called one of the younger kids over and said, "Hey, go up to the Explorer Scout cabin [about half a mile away and up a fairly steep hill] and bring back 150 feet of shoreline." The kid said "Okay—uh—aye aye, sir!" saluted, and took off on a fun. The older scouts nudged each other and snickered. The younger kid came back about twenty minutes later and said, "Sir, it occurred t me that there probably wasn't much shoreline way up there where the Explorer Scout cabins are, so I went searching on my own." He set a bucket down. It was about half-full of water, sand, pebbles, and splinters of driftwood. "I think that's about 150 feet, but you can measure it if you think you need to." He saluted briskly and walked off, wearing a subtle smirk. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 03 Nov 06 - 05:14 AM Contact the local radio station - ask them to broadcast if there is anybody responsible listening - there are your fans to consider who don't know whether you'll be there, and indeed a basic amount of respect to onne of mudcat's finest would not go amiss. Should you tell your fans to go there and expect your presence. You could end up making more publicity out of it than would pay for the three hour drive. And it would mean the sons of bitches were working for you. do you have a musician's union - perhaps they have a man on the ground locally who could go knocking at their door for you. Or maybe a mudcatter who lives nearer? |
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Subject: RE: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 03 Nov 06 - 05:36 AM okay - more ideas to prevent you having to crawl away from, what could be, an essentially no win situation, and turn it to your advantage as much as possible. burn some cds of your most radio friendly song. send e-mails to radio station (with mp3 if you want warning of the arrival of the cd, and your need and your fans need to have the clarification sorted. say you are available for phone interviews. e-mail the 'story' with a picture of yourself clutching guitar to all the local hicksville papers. they always need a story. phone an agent and fix up a gig at a local pub for expenses. if the alleged blues festival oganiser contacts you. tell whichever one of them you fancy to go screw 'emselves. send out the newspaper stroies again - this time as last minute change of venue story. the important thing is, empower yourself - don't take this shit lying down! |
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Subject: RE: Ethical Dilemma Regarding a Gig... From: Betsy Date: 03 Nov 06 - 07:29 AM Hi Bo9bert , The immediate criticism is, why didn't you leave a clear coherent message on their answering machine for them to contact you. For me , in the absence of a Contract (which is not always the method of handling these things )if they haven't confirmed properly in writing / Email , or given you a definitive "go ahead" from someone you personally know , stating the most basic of conditions, re:- fee ( perhaps no fee ) accommodation , PA requirements ,etc., you haven't got an official Gig. I think you've been told - " If you fancy coming - do so, and we might find a spot for you depending how the evening goes ". Inconsiderate Bastards. Always remember what Sam Goldwyn said , " A verbal contract is not worth the paper it's not written on ". I hope you find a more worth while way of spending your evening - but I know it's a nagging feeling that you may be missing out on something / putting your name about by performing. I've suddenly changed my mind - why don't you go, and tell us all what happened ? Either way - Good luck - but don't get bent out of shape over this, there'll be plenty of decent organisers in the future who will do things properly . Cheers , Betsy |
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