CD numbers and PRS

Subject: Cd numbers and PRS
From: Mo the caller
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 09:47 AM

In the Isambarde thread
Bernard talked about a cd with no reference number making PRS logging difficult.
I do the returns for our dance club and I assume that if it has no number it wouldn't get any PRS money anyway so I can ignore it. What should I be doing?

Subject: RE: Cd numbers and PRS
From: Bernard
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 12:07 PM

Not quite - the track may be registered for PRS, or the composer/lyricist may have registered their interest.

My approach (which was what I was advised to do at the BBC when we did a live programme) is to register all the details, and use a made up number such as FOLKCD 001 for the album.

The made up reference won't log with PRS, but the other details for the track will.

Subject: RE: Cd numbers and PRS
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 12:45 PM

For PRS, most important is to declare the full title of the song and name of the author. CD catalogue Nos are not registered with PRS anyway (only with MCPS), and should not be necessary (unless whatever software the Beeb use mistakenly insists on such info). Example:

Back in September '05 I appeared at Frank Hennessy's programme on BBC Radio Wales, where I sang live a new song, yet unrecorded, and had played another new song, recorded but not yet released and therefore with no CD catalogue number. Both songs were registered already with PRS, though (I always do that before I bring a song "out"). So Frank submitted the patchy information known at the time (my name, track names); and about 6 months later I did get my royalties through PRS.

Subject: RE: Cd numbers and PRS
From: Mo the caller
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 01:48 PM

What sort of money are we talking about anyway.
How much do the performers get if we play a track of a cd at a club to 30 people.

Subject: RE: Cd numbers and PRS
From: GUEST,Tim
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 02:19 PM

My understanding is not very much, pennies, so not really worth doing or indeed joining as I am led to believe unless you are at the top of your career.

Subject: RE: Cd numbers and PRS
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 02:30 PM

A few pennies several times, becomes many pennies. Once you have filled in the first set of paperwork, PRS or MCPS, and dealt with them personally it all becomes relatively straightforward.
Neither organisation is out to trick or trap anyone, in my experience.

Subject: RE: Cd numbers and PRS
From: Anne Lister
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 03:14 PM

You don't get much at all for your song being played on CD to a small audience, but that doesn't mean it's not worth joining PRS and MCPS. You never know when your song might be played to more people or in a wider situation. Occasionally, just occasionally, my PRS statements have hidden surprises which make it all worth while.

Anne

Subject: RE: Cd numbers and PRS
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 06:53 PM

Believe me, it is worth it. Roughly calculated, airplay of a single song on a local radio station will get you perhaps 30p. But then you share in the allocated pots for things like music played at hairdresser's etc, and before you know it your 30p has become a fiver. If you are a performer and sing your songs at a festival, that means probably upwards of a dozen songs x £2 or £3; and so on. It starts mounting.

Subject: RE: Cd numbers and PRS
From: nutty
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 07:12 PM

But if you are paid to sing at a festival, doesn't that mean, if you get royalties on top, you are actually being paid twice for singing your song??

That's something I've never understood.

Subject: RE: Cd numbers and PRS
From: Chris Green
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 07:14 PM

Hi all. Have a rather shamefaced confession to make. There is no MCPS number on our first album as we didn't know about the MCPS at the time and didn't know we had to do it. However we did fully credit everyone whose stuff we used, so the PRS shouldn't have too much trouble chasing it up. We're doing a rerun in the next couple of months and that WILL be MCPS'd.

Sorry

Chris

PS - For the record as well it was a run of 500 CDs initially and the vast majority of the stuff was trad, so hopefully we haven't cheated anyone of too much money!

Subject: RE: Cd numbers and PRS
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 08:00 PM

Nutty, the logic goes as follows:

- the performer gets paid directly by the festival for performing i.e. singing (whatever songs); he/she then declares on the PRS forms which songs he/she did sing, so that the authors can get royalties.
- if the performer sings his/her own songs, he/she gets the related royalties. These are covered by the PRS licence fee that the festival pays.

So the festival pays two kinds of fees: a) performance fee (payment direct to artist) and b) licence for having the songs performed (payment to author via PRS). Both of these are in turn covered by the festival ticket price.

If I get booked at a festival and sing a Keith Marsden song, I don't get paid PRS royalties of course - just the performance fee. Conversely, if Vin Garbutt sings the Flowers & the Guns, I get paid the royalties even if I did not appear at the festival.

The moral is: The more you request the Flowers & the Guns from Vin, the more pennies I get! It's about a pint's worth, so let me know and I'll buy you the pint!

Chris, it has been common practice not to licence CDs for small initial runs. In any case, the recording (MCPS) licence fee goes directly to the authors of the songs, after MCPS takes its 15% admin slice. That works out at something like 4p per song and per copy - or £20 per song for your run of 500. So that's how much the authors are "short" since you didn't licence the CD from MCPS - no huge amount. Still, every time the track is played on the radio (whether the CD was MCPS-licenced or not is immaterial), the author will get the PRS royalties for airplay anyway.

In my case, IF I had not licenced my first 4 albums from MCPS (I am NOT saying that I didn't mind you, far be it from me etc etc) then one could have argued that as I was the author of the songs I would only be doing myself out of the £20 or so per track for the licence. Not quite true of course, because I would also be doing MCPS out of their 15% cut; but hey, I MIGHT have thought, they were big boys and could afford to lose their £12 share for the tiny 200-CD runs that I did. But I didn't do that, so that's all right...

Subject: RE: Cd numbers and PRS
From: Barry Finn
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 10:41 PM

What is MCPS & PRS & CD numbers? I'm very close to sending in the master of a new CD (I'm in the US) & 1 song I have a copyright on & 2 songs my patner has a copyright on plus one song where my partner has written the music to is a traditional song that had no music & he added a chours to it. We aren't covering any songs that were written by or copyrighted by others. It's begining to sound like, at least from this thread, that I may need to be doing something that I've heard nothing about & know nothing of. Could some one explain.

Thanks
Barry

Subject: RE: CD numbers and PRS
From: Mo the caller
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 03:43 AM

Well, I don't know anything about US, I'm in UK. But thats something else I've wondered about, do the American and Dutch bands whose recordings we use get any money when i fill in a PRS form?

Subject: RE: CD numbers and PRS
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 04:11 AM

Yes they do, Mo, though it might be a year before it gets to them. There are reciprocal arrangements between the PRS-like organisations in the US, Europe and Australia. I had some airplay in Italy from my song to Angelo Branduardi, and picked up another pint's worth from there. And a few pint's worth from Australia too.

Barry, the mention of a "CD number" above is for the Label's Catalog Number, under which the CD is marketed and referred to in shops or online stores - IRR055 for example is the number of my last CD, "For my next trick", under the Irregular label.

PRS (Performing Rights Society) is an organisation collecting from musical venues and broadcasting stations etc (and apportioning to the copyright owners) performing royalties for musical works. It is equivalent to BMI or ASCAP in the States - and has reciprocal arrangements with both.

MCPS (Mechanical-Copyright Protection Society) licences the manufacture of CDs, video etc (i.e. physical representations of musical works), and again apportions the relevant money to the copyright owners of the works being recorded. I don't know the equivalent in the US (is it the Harry Fox agency?).

Subject: RE: CD numbers and PRS
From: treewind
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 04:44 AM

What George says about hidden surprises, hairdressers etc. is absoultely true - Mary's last return, as well as several local radio airplays that we didn't know about, included baffling references to aerobics classes and a dance club!

Re Isambarde: Using trad material (as we do) it's still worth joining the PRS. We get arrangement royalties for everything we perform, and Mary's copy+paste and rewriting of "When Fishes Fly" is acknowledged in Tom Bliss's "Rue" which is a futher rearrangement of what started off as traditional raw material.

Anahata

Subject: RE: CD numbers and PRS
From: Anne Lister
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 03:23 PM

Aha ... Anahata, I, too, had baffling references to aerobics classes and a dance club, so either they're getting keen on moving to folkies or it's another way for them to spread the royalties out a bit further without being too specific!

Anne

Subject: RE: CD numbers and PRS
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 03:28 PM

Don't knock it; I am big in aerobics, karaoke and jukeboxes. They account for some 25% of my PRS return!

It's the concept of someone doing aerobics to some of my tearjerkers that I find fascinating... A sort of Kate Bush with more vigour.

Subject: RE: CD numbers and PRS
From: Bernard
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 04:50 PM

PRS logging software, whether it is the BBC's 'Sable' system, or the Radio Britfolk system or whatever, will always insist on a CD reference... they must have their reasons.

Kate Bush? Glad it ain't George (W) Bush!! Anyway, George, I though you were just... erm... big! You and I make good bookends!

Subject: RE: CD numbers and PRS
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 05:26 PM

I don't think the Beeb has reasons, Bernard; after 25 years in IT I have seen the syndrome of "ask for the info just in case" too many times to trust them. It is certain that PRS don't require it, they don't have the info to match it with. As for Radio Britfolk, it is currently playing my "Miracle of Life" with no label and catalog number (quite right, as it is not on any album or published yet - yet it is PRS-registered).

You and me as bookends, eh? 24 strings and a lot of girth!