Tune Req: Fretless banjo

Subject: Tune Req: Fretless banjo
From: oombanjo
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 03:44 AM

I'm having a fretless banjo built and would appreciate any tips on playing it. I am also interested in any frank Profit song / tunes (hope the spellings correct put me right if its wrong) I know I'm asking a lot but does anyone have the old time Banjo tab for, "Fire on the Mountain" and what tuning

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Fretless banjo
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 10:40 AM

Click here for correct spelling.
Not sure if I have anything on CD. I think there may be something on one or more vinyl LP in my collection, but I don't currently have a stylus for my record deck.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Fretless banjo
From: oombanjo
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 11:17 AM

Thanks Geoff I have saved the page

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Fretless banjo
From: oombanjo
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 04:34 AM

rfresh

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Fretless banjo
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 08:34 AM

As for TAB - you could try
http://www.bluesageband.com/Tabs.html. Fire on the mountain is part way down the page, with an MP3 to listen to.
Some tunes are clawhammer others some form of picking.

Quack!
Geoff.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Fretless banjo
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 08:53 AM

oombanjo,

Do you already play banjo?

I play both fretless and fretted.

To oversimplify,
playing fretless is just like playing fretted, only without the frets:)

Russ (Permanent GUEST)

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Fretless banjo
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 09:12 AM

LOL.....Russ, no matter how true, you always crack me up!

Oom, we have lots of Frank Proffitt stuff on threads around here but I don't know of any tab for Frank's work. To be real truthful, the best way to play like Frank Proffitt is to listen to a lot of Frank Proffitt. Geoff linked you a site, but let me suggest you go right to the horse's mouth, so to speak, and try the guy who recorded those Frank Proffitt albums? Sandy Paton used to be around here all the time but for various reasons isn't around much anymore, but he's still a 'Catter......more importantly, he's a legend. He and Caroline along with their great friend, the late Lee Haggerty, started Folk-Legacy Records almost 50 years ago and part of the reason was the love of the music of Frank Proffitt. You can order from Sandy of course but I'm sure he'd be happy to tell you anything he can about him as well. Here's the FOLK LEGACY WEBSITE

Also, I thought I'd copy here something that you can read on the F-L site but I think it kinda' belongs here too. Here are some of the original liner notes from 1962:

Frank and his wife, Bessie (nee Hicks), have six children. Oliver, the eldest, is in the Air Force; Ronald, next in line, is studying at Kentucky's Berea College, which leaves only Franklin, Eddie, Gerald and Phyllis at home. This is not a large family by mountain standards, but Frank has had to work hard to keep them all well-fed and in school. The mountains of North Carolina are beautiful, and Frank loves them as only a mountain-man can, but they are hard and rough as well. Although tobacco is a good cash crop, the small mountain farm can produce only so much, and Frank has sometimes been forced to leave his family to seek work elsewhere. During the war he worked at Oak Ridge. ("I was just a carpenter, working on the buildings. I didn't have any idea what they were making over there.") For awhile he worked in a spark-plug factory in Toledo, Ohio. During what he calls "Hoover times," he built roads with the WPA. ("That was when a pound of fat-back cost three cents and when you wanted to send a letter you'd take an egg to the Post Office to swap for a stamp.") Things are much better now, oF course. His tobacco crop, some strawberries, and his carpentry work make it possible for him to stay at home with his family. His home-made banjos and dulcimers help out a lot, too. Last year, an important part of his income came from the sale of these handsome instruments, fashioned along the patterns learned from his father. Working in the old house (once his father's) on the hill behind his home, it takes Frank nearly a week to hand-carve, fit, and finish an instrument, but the result is well worth the effort. His appearance with Frank Warner at the 1961 University of Chicago Folk Music Festival did a lot to stimulate sales in that area. And little wonder ? anyone who hears him coaxing such fine music out of his home-made, fretless banjo will readily understand why Chicago's banjo-pickers were anxious to try their hand at it.

Most of Frank's songs have come to him through his family. His father, Wiley Proffitt, used to sing to Frank as they worked together in the fields or up in the woods, cutting timber. Wiley Proffitt was the proud son of a "Southern Yankee" ? a Tennessee man who went "across the mountain to join the boys in blue" during the Civil War. Frank's aunt, Nancy Prather, was another fine ballad singer. Frank took care of her in the months preceding her death and, at that time, made a conscious effort to learn all of her songs and ballads, for Frank was interested in his people and their history. He not only loved the old songs, he was aware of their value and deliberately set out to preserve them.

It was in 1937 that Frank and Anne Warner went to visit Bessie's father, Nathan Hicks, on "the Beech" ? Beech Mountain, North Carolina. They had heard that Nathan made dulcimers and sought him out in their quest for old songs and ballads. When they made plans to return the next year for more song-swapping, Nathan made sure that his son-in-law would be there for the occasion ? a truly exciting event in the lives of these isolated mountain folk. This, then, was the first meeting between the two Franks ? Warner and Proffitt ? and the beginning of a lasting friendship. It was during this first meeting that Frank sang "Tom Dooley" to Frank Warner, the version of the song which, later, was to sell several million records and become, perhaps, the best known folksong in America.

We, of Folk-Legacy Records, consider Frank Proffitt to be one of this country's finest traditional artists. We are proud to offer this as the first in our series of authentic field recordings.

Our friend and business partner, Lee B. Haggerty, president of Folk-Legacy for thirty-nine years, loved Frank Proffitt's music. Indeed, it was hearing tapes of Frank in 1961 that inspired Lee to suggest that we start a record company together. Lee passed away in March of 2000. We know how happy he would be that this recording of Frank Proffitt, our first release, is now available as a compact disc. This one's for you, Lee.



The Songs 1. TRIFLING WOMAN (Proffitt)

Some years ago, Frank was working on a logging job with a fellow who was constantly complaining about the way his wife treated him. In fact, one day he came to Frank, moaning that he was so miserable he would kill himself, if only he had a gun. Frank laughs, "I was just ornery enough that I wanted to see if he really would, so I went and got him one." When the man backed down, Frank decided to commemorate his misery in song. This is the result.

0 Lord, I've been a-working,
Working like a. dog all day,
Trying to make another dollar
For you to throw away. (You trifling woman, you!)

You spend all my money;
You go dressed so fine,
While I wear old clothes
And I don't have a dime.

You won't bake my bread,
You won't cook my beans;
You want to stand by that haul-road
So you can be seen.

Well, I'd rather be a-hanging,
Hanging by an old grape vine,
Than to know I'd have to spend my days
With you all the time.
(You 're running me crazy, woman!)

Well, I've been a-working
Ten long hours a day,
Trying to make another dollar
For you to throw way.


2. CLUCK OLD HEN (trad.)

Popular as both a fiddle and a banjo tune, Frank says he has known this one all his life. He explains that "every banjo-picker in the mountains around here knew that one." Describing the version which later came out of Nashville as a fiddle tune titled "Cackling Hen," Frank says, "They put it on a much higher speed, with lots of running up higher. I kind of liked it, but it didn't have much of the old flavor left." Here Frank makes good use of his home-made banjo, which has no frets. For more on this style of playing, see the note for "Reuben Train.

Cluck, old hen, cluck and squall,
You ain 't laid an egg since a-way last fall.

Cluck, old hen, cluck and sing,
You ain't laid an egg since a-way last spring.

My old hen, she won't do;
She lays eggs and 'taters, too.

Oh, I've got a good. old hen;
She lays eggs for railroad men.

The old hen cackled, she cackled in the lot;
The next time she cackled, she cackled in the pot.


7. REUBEN TRAIN (trad.)

LOMAX II prints a version of this song which has been collated from several "picked up through the years along the song-hunting trail.' He states that it was a harmonica-blower's tune and a great favorite among country banjo-pickers and fiddlers in the South. He adds that "one occasionally meets a singer who knows a few verses of the song," but that he has "never heard it sung in ballad form." It seems quite likely that Frank Proffitt has done much the same thing in gathering his "ballad form" version from various mountain musicians with whom he has played in the past. BROWN prints two versions, one of which contains seven stanzas; Lomax's collation contains eight stanzas, as does the version recorded here. I have not found the song elsewhere in print, although a four stanza version may be heard on the Folkways album mentioned in the note for "Handsome Molly" (again performed by Doc Watson), and Ralph and Richard Rinzler's excellent notes point out its relationship to both "Train 45" and the familiar "900 Miles." They also add a short discography. This was the first tune Frank learned to play on his home-made banjo, and here the fretless instrument may be heard in a style not unlike the bottle-neck style favored by a number of African-American guitarists. Sliding the fingers up and down the neck produces the slurred notes. Frank says, "You can't hardly do this on a fretted banjer; it takes a lot of clearance on the neck with nothing to get in the way."

See: Brown, Lomax II.

Oh, Reuben s coming down the track
And he's got his throttle back
And the rails are a-carrying him from home.

If the boiler don't bust,
' Cause it's eat up with rust,
I'll soon be a long ways from home.

If you don't believe I'm gone,
Look at the train I'm on;
You can hear the whistle blow a thousand miles.

I'm a-going down the track;
I ain't never coming back,
And I'll never get no letter from my home.

Well, the train run so fast
Till I knowed it couldn 't last,
For the wheels was a-burning up the rail.

Old Reuben had a wreck
And it broke old Reuben's neck,
But it never hurt a hair on my head.

Now I'm walking up the track,
Hoping I'll get back;
I'm a thousand miles away from home.

If I ever get back to you,
You can beat me black and blue,
For I'll never leave my shanty home.


BTW, Frank's son, Ronald, who was attending Berea College at the time went on and graduated and was in Medical School at UK when he was killed in an automobile accident. Sandy passed that on to me since I went to Berea as well about 4 years later.


Spaw

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Fretless banjo
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 11:28 AM

I like to play tunes with a lot of slides on the fretless. Hot Corn Cold Corn sounds great in a two finger style. Of course clawhammer is great too. Listen to Michael Cooney play TROUBLE ON MY MIND (not TROUBLE IN MIND, the Bill Broonzy song) on his album Singer Of Old Songs.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Fretless banjo
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 01:29 PM

What Spaw said.

Repeat.

What Spaw said.

IMHO, your time is better spent listening to Frank Profitt than looking for tab. What, really, do you have better to do?

A minute spent listening to a musician of the caliber of Frank is never wasted.

ALSO

Mudcat doesn't seem to attract many non-lurking old time musicians.

You might ask the same question on
http://www.banjohangout.org/

Or you could join banjo-l and post your question there.

I subscribe to banjo-l and visit banjohangout regularly.

Both are valuable sources of banjo information and misinformation.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Fretless banjo
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 01:42 PM

Reuben's Train, given by Spaw above , is a great fretless tune, starting out with a slide on the third note and containing lots of super slides. I agree with Frank Profitt that it just doesn't sound right on a fretted banjo. I use an open D tuning for this tune - aDF#AD. This is the only tune I play using this tuning. I mostly use aDADE to play in D. On my fretless, which has a short scale, I tune the banjo to pitch, but on my fretted banjos I tune gCGCD and capo II.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Fretless banjo
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 04:12 PM

Or you could join banjo-l and post your question there.
Who? What? and Where?
Quack!
Geoff the Duck.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Fretless banjo
From: 12-stringer
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 06:40 PM

Yo, Geoff! Look here for Banjo-L:

http://zeppmusic.com/banjo/

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Fretless banjo
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 08:38 AM

Some of the exchanges on banjo-l can make mudcat at its worst look warm and fuzzy.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Fretless banjo
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 10:56 AM

Thanks for the link. I'll have an investigate some time.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Fretless banjo
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 11:49 AM

Hey fretless banjo players, do you have short scale banjos to play in A and D rather than G and C? If not, is there any way to capo a fretless efectively?
This is just to satisfy my curiosity, since my fretless has a short scale.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Fretless banjo
From: GUEST,Uncle Jaque
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 09:07 PM

The old-style fretless gut strung hide-head "Minstrel" banjos tuned about 2 1/2 steps flat of where they are nowadays. When you run guts on friction pegs, you'll know why, too.
Oh; and don't use picks of any sort on gut; it tears 'em up, an' they is wickid expensive!

They tended to use a larger pot than modern ones, too; upwards of 13" in dia. or even bigger. They had steel strings in the banjo's hayday - from around 1835 through the Civil War - but they didn't see much use on banjos or guitars for that matter until around the 1880s.

There's a guy name o' Bob Flesher had books and a tape out of old style minstrel banjo pickin' in the old "Stroke" style; sort of primative clawhammer, I suppose. I'd reccomend him highly.

Dr. Horsehair

These primative banjos have a distinctive sound that is not at all like the newfangled "Bluegrass" instruments; one which I like every bit as well. You can prob'ly hear a few tunes on one at the above linked site.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Fretless banjo
From: Joe Richman
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 12:20 AM

A discussion at banjohangout on old banjo tunings:

http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=66261

RD Lunceford who posted in this banjo hangout thread has a book of tabs for fretless banjo also (goes with a CD).

Joe

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Fretless banjo
From: oombanjo
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 08:58 AM

What a great Saturday morning you chaps have given me .I thought the thread had died a death. I do play a fretted G Banjo, but I had an old Windsor prem with a shot fret board I had a friend put me a fretless on and was looking for tips on playing. I have a set of Nylgut strings on the way and will change over when they arrive. I got the banjo back yesterday and have spent the whole evening experimenting with it; I love the sounds you can get. Have I got it right that you can tune right up to D tuning without using a capo.? And one problem I have that you may be able to help with is, when fingering the first and second strings the sound dead, played open they're great. Any Ideas? I have saved all the links that you have sent. Thanks to all again.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Fretless banjo
From: Joe Richman
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 11:02 AM

The fretless "capo" (if you want to call it that) is to slide the bridge back and forth. Closer to the neck gives higher tnings, closer to the tailpiece gives lower tunings. I have 2 gut string fretless Fleshers. Fretless banjo tunings from the old days fall into high bass and low bass. The high bass tuning is equivalent to a modern banjo's G tuning, and the low bass tuning is equivalent to the so-called standard C tuning. Only the bass string gets changed back & forth to go between these two tunings. My "Boucher" model is tuned in D high bass or G low bass, but with the "fretless capo", it'll do E and A also. This D is a third below a typical modern bluegrass banjo in G. My "Dandy Jim" model has a longer neck and a bigger pot and heavier strings. It is tuned in A high bass or D low bass. (That is A nearly an octave below a modern bluegrass banjo in G.) With the "fretles capo", it'll go to B and E.

Other tunings besides the traditional minstrel tunings I have mentioned would also work on a fretless banjo, same as on a fretted instrument. Again on a minstrel instrument they will be lower in pitch than on a modern instrument.

I have a lot of songs I love to play on my fretless banjos. I play "Little Mohee" and "When you and I were young, Maggie" on the "Boucher"in high bass, and "Jordan is a hard road to travel" on it in low bass. I love "My old Kentucky home" on the "Dandy Jim" in high bass, and "Arkansas traveler" and "Chicken reel" on that one in low bass. Sounds like a "Chicken reel" for "Foghorn Leghorn"!

Joe

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Fretless banjo
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 12:00 PM

Thank you Joe for the info on the "fretless capo". It's so obvious that I kicked myself for not thinking of it.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Fretless banjo
From: Joe Richman
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 12:17 PM

PLEASE!!! fretless players: do not injure yourself by kicking yourself,etc. Consider yourselves an endangered species. Post questions on the 'Cat when you hit a roadblock. I'm just an amateur, myself.

I have a neighbor who is a professional musician. He has never played a fretted instrument in his life, but when he was young he learned to play an upright Bass in a jazz combo. Since he is primarily a keyboard and woodwind man, he hadn't done that since the 70s. He played my fretless banjo after 30 seconds of noodling to figure out the tuning. (He played it like a bullfiddle of course!) So the instrument really isn't that hard to figure out. Just try things and play around with it and have a lot of fun!

Joe

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Fretless banjo
From: oombanjo
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 03:40 AM

rrrefrsh

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Fretless banjo
From: GUEST,Uncle Jaque in Maine
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 12:04 AM

They had a capo back in the early 1800s for guitar - only they called it a "choker".   I don't know if they ever used 'em on banjos, though.

It was a wooden block with a fiddle peg set in it's top, which put tension on a string wound around the back of the neck. From the illustration in one of Justin Holland's guitar tutors it seems to have had a leather or felt pad where it pressed onto the strings.
Making up a reproduction would not be all that difficult, and I intend to make one one of these days.

As to the muted sound where the strings are pressed onto the board, I think that as your callouses develop that this will be less of an issue.

I've never tried the nylon feaux-gut strings, so don't know how they compare with the real McCoys. I get my guts from Boston Catlines:

BOSTON CATLINES
Olav Chris Henricksen
34 Newbury Street
Somerville, MA 02144 USA
[phone].

I don't know if he is still in business though.
He made the strings for the Boston Symphony Orchestra, and he's good!
Before ordering, know the "vibrating length" of your strings and what pitch you intend to tune them to.

If you hang them up and run a fingerfull of varnish onto them, then let them dry well before insalling (leave the head end raw so you can soften it - I put it in my mouth for a minute or so - before winding on the peg) and they will last a lot longer.
Don't leave them strung up to pitch for very long; let them down slack before storing the instrument, like a longbow.

Usually only the tenor strings were gut; the bass strings were copper wound silk, and Olav can't tell the difference in sound between the very expensive silks and the modern nylon, so he uses the nylon aucoustic folk basses in the gut sets he sells. In the case of the banjo, that's only the 4th string.

Back in the day, I've used strings from old badminton rackets and fishing leader to string up a banjo - and it sounded pretty decent.