IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!

Subject: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Mar 97 - 10:40 AM

Ralph Butts, in a reply to the 'Sneaky Snake' request, posted a URL that can be VERY useful and important...There ARE archives of songs in other catagories...rock, pop, 'oldies', classical, foreign languages, hip-hop, rap...you name it..I spent 2 hours lost in the links form this site...and had to force myself to go to bed.There links within links...some play tunes, some are in big zipped archives...the point is, the debate that has gone on here about whether to ask for a pop song in a 'folk' area now has another solution.Now, if we can just get the Mudcat Cafe to post the way to some of these links, those seeking lyrics(and chords! and tab!), will have other ways to find what they need!! There is even one page where some guy offers to email you stuff that is NOT currently online! It is true that there does NOT seem to be anything quite like THIS Q&A forum, but perhaps that will come too.....(ummmm, I DID notice, that those who publish pop lyrics, or 'country-western' lyrics, etc., do NOT seem to feel that they ought to also keep listings for the the various forms of 'folk' music...*grin*) The lines between traditional music and other types are NOT always clear, but there ARE distinctions to be made. I really hope that Mudcat and DT will manage to get some sort of *permanent* set of links on the page to direct peoples song searches to the most reasonable & productive channels....and my thanks to Ralph Butts for finding what he calls 'the mother lode'...(Tes you CAN find almost everything the Beatles ever did out there at a couple of sites..you don't have to ask here...).......Happy Singing!...Bill

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Mar 97 - 10:44 AM

Oh...and for those who haven't looked at the "Sneaky Snake" post, here is the link Ralph posted....(don't get lost, now!)

http://www.vhf.com/~kennyb/lyrics.htm

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From:
Date: 06 Mar 97 - 01:29 PM

and here's another one you might find useful: http://www.nsknet.or.jp/~motoya/BG/index.html Looks like Country and Bluegrass music is going strong in Japan also! Gene

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Mar 97 - 03:11 AM

And, of course, there's the alt.music.lyrics newsgroup. I'm still looking for a site that has lots of lyrics from the "great" american songwriters, people like Lorenz Hart, Ira Gershwin, and Cole Porter. Any ideas? What I've found so far is very limited, usually just lyrics to songs Sinatra did. -Joe-

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From: Ralph Butts
Date: 07 Mar 97 - 09:04 AM

Joe....

A site with stuff like you're looking for:

http://das-www.harvard.edu/users/students/Rebecca_Hwa/lyrics/ Dead link. --Joe Clone

....Tiger

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From:
Date: 08 Mar 97 - 02:23 AM

A collection of 325 irish lyrics is maintained by Seppo J. Niemi in Finland. You can reach it at:

http://www.cs.hut.fi/~zaphod/search/

Bye Ezio, Italy

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From:
Date: 10 Mar 97 - 02:07 AM

I think that a links page would be great. I have a LOAD of good URLS, mostly for Folk and Celtic, but some are pages of links!

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From:
Date: 14 Mar 97 - 10:24 AM

Reviving this thread re the message to Dick G

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From:
Date: 14 Mar 97 - 08:16 PM

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Mar 97 - 05:49 PM

just re-uping this for newbies

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From:
Date: 21 Mar 97 - 12:05 AM

Here's one for mostly songs in french if anybody is interested...

http://www.netmusic.com/liens/tablatures.html

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From: Cheryl
Date: 21 Mar 97 - 04:48 PM

Looking for a site that would have folk music tab. Can anyone help?

Post back or email to [e-mail]

Thanks!

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From:
Date: 21 Mar 97 - 05:39 PM

We are looking for the lyrics to Isle of Innisfree. The song was sung by Maureen O'Hara in The Quiet Man. Send to [e-mail]

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From:
Date: 21 Mar 97 - 07:28 PM

You can find some lyrics from musicals at http://musicals.mit.edu/musicals/. Not, unfortunately, those to "Aldonza" from Man of La Mancha.

I e-mailed Yeats's "The Lake Isle of Innisfree" to KatiHati@aolcom as she (?) requested. (I'm posting that here so no one unnecessarily does the same.)

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From: Rick
Date: 02 Jul 97 - 03:19 AM

Here's a few more URLs for folk-ish sites:

Folk Music Tunes Lyrics Info

Online Guitar Archive

Psychedelic Guitar Tablature

MIDI stranica - Hungarian site - any translations gratefully received!

Australian Folk Songs

Enjoy!

Rick

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From: oldtimer
Date: 02 Jul 97 - 11:37 AM

I think this is a great idea! If we can get all these other people off our page, we can get down to a much smaller group and refine the list of songs we want to talk about to a hard-core number. I think, for our purposes, the lines between folk and other genres can be cast in concrete to discourage these people and keep them from diluting our discussion. Out with the riff-raff!

Now, my tongue will come out of my cheek and I will say: The more links the better! For all of us.

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From: Elsie
Date: 02 Jul 97 - 12:05 PM

oldtimer,much as I sympathize with your sentiments and agree that keeping these links available is a good idea....it is hopeless!!Until other genre's get a forum like this, there WILL constantly be incursions from those who simply refuse to acknowlege the need for a narrow focus of ANY definition! When they want a song, they want a song--no matter what the sign on the door says about 'traditional'. I made my dire predictions way back, and have largely given up fighting it. Time will tell....but I will certainly do my part to show the pop/rock/singer-songwriter/musical-comedy crowd better places to go....

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From: Joe Tully
Date: 02 Jul 97 - 12:21 PM

To [e-mail]

Post the request for the Isle of Innisfree lyrics to Maureen O'Hara Discussion Forum at: http://EWIServer.npl.washington.edu/beck/talk_maureen/ You may have better luck.

I believe that one of the musicians who worked on the movie gave Maureen some of the lyrics which she sang in the Quiet Man.

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jul 97 - 03:09 AM

Ah, Elsie, we've missed you. I have to admit that I get perturbed myself when the requests are for songs that are recent. There are plenty of sources for lyrics like that, and people can usually get a quick response on alt.music.lyrics..

Besides folk music, I've come to love the songs of the "Great Songwriters" of the first half of this century, people like Cole Porter and Dorothy Fields and Ira Gershwin and Lorenz Hart. I haven't found many sources for lyrics of that era, so I sometimes cheat and post my requests and responses here. There are some lyrics on the Frank Sinatra and Bing Crosby sites and others of that ilk; and there are a few lyrics like that on the University of Wisconsin Parkside database (which is getting hard to find since the university closed the main site). Anybody have suggestions?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From: Rick
Date: 03 Jul 97 - 04:42 AM

oldtimer / Elsie

as a relative newcomer to this forum, do I detect a previously trodden upon toe?

I sing and play in the folk style (i.e. badly and loudly :-; ) and prefer traditional songs, but have no problem also trying out "folk" arrangements of rock/pop/C&W tunes. So there are times when I might want to request lyrics which are outside the tradition - would it be wrong to do so in this forum, where people are polite, pleasant, well informed and helpful (as opposed to some of the news groups where you have to wade through gallons of useless spam and flames)?

I don't think you can draw any arbitrary lines where music is concerned - certainly what we consider tradition was, at some point in the past, thought of much as we think of pop. Take the Child ballads as an example, or the works of Robert Burns. Most of Burns' songs were composed not from some great humanitarian or revolutionary idealism, but to earn money to keep a roof over his head and a jug in his hand.

So, can you let me know if this forum does draw lines, so that I can avoid stepping over them? Apologies if this posting is repeating or encouraging known arguments.

Cheers

Rick.

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From: Dale Rose
Date: 03 Jul 97 - 09:32 AM

I posted these some time ago in another place, but this seems to be an appropriate place to put them up again. I agree that a permanent set of links would be helpful, including links to links??

If you are fortunate in living near some of the institutions which specialize in archives of this sort of music, then you may want to pay them a visit and see just how much is available. This is not meant to be an all inclusive list of sources, but a few that you may want to investigate. Visiting their websites will give you more information.

http://ils.unc.edu/barba/sfc.html Southern Folklife Collection~~University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

http://www.etsu-tn.edu/archapp/aapprac.htm Archives of Appalachia~~East Tennessee State University at Johnson City.

http://lcweb.loc.gov/folklife/ American Folklife Center~~Library of Congress in Washington DC.

No website yet, but on the way! The Resource Center at the Ozark Folk Center~~Mountain View,Arkansas. I do some volunteer work here, and guarantee that the people at the Center will do their best to help you. It is, of course, especially good when you are researching the music of the Ozarks.

http://celtic.stanford.edu/tunesearch.html Not a library, but a great site which has an index of hundreds of tune books with reportedly over 35,000 entries.

http://www.mcs.com/%7Ehammerd/fvfs/outlinks.html#INDX The Fox Valley Folklore Society has a HUGE list of links to sites of interest to folk music lovers. This is where I would start if I were just beginning. If anyone knows of a better set, please let us all know!

http://www.dogpile.com/ And finally, do not underestimate the value of a good multi-engine search and a little ingenuity. I use dogpile, but I am sure that there are others. Since it searches 15 or more of the common search engines at the same time, I find it invaluable when searching for something out there on the fringes. Many times, I have not found what I was looking for until 8, 10, or more search engines had been gone through.

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From: Elsie
Date: 03 Jul 97 - 11:42 AM

Rick...if you were to set the 'age' box to 365 you could go back to the beginning and read the whole discussion about 'appropriate' postings etc--but it would take you awhile!

Suffice it to say that there will always be a difference of opinion. Since there are no 'official' definitions, the management has always been pretty liberal.There are many of us, though, who would hate to see a time when just anything is accepted---it defeats the purpose of HAVING a site for folk/traditional music.

No one can really stop question asking & replying in this forum, but Dick Greenhaus has the final say on what goes into the database...and he has pretty good taste as to what the limits are,so you might use the database collection as a guide.

I personally wish that people would respect the concept of a clearing house for traditional music in a little more narrowly defined way, but I am not in charge; and since what IS here in the way of 'real' folk/traditional music is so good, I guess I will just grit my teeth and sift through the chaff to get to the wheat and not say too much about it......(well, unless, of course......)

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From: ALison
Date: 03 Jul 97 - 10:41 PM

Hi

In an attempt to keep Elsie happy I'll post and address to a site which provides the lyrics to all that "other stuff". In the hope that people use it.

http://www.enternet.co.nz/client/personal/jen/general.htm

This has links to all sorts of things and types of music. She also has lyrics listed by title and by groups or artist.

She even has some folk stuff!

Happy hunting.

Slainte

Alison

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From: buzz
Date: 06 Jul 97 - 01:55 AM

chill out... Schooner Fair's definition of folk music is "that music which people sing"... not a bad start for an impossible task... hard rock geeks, etc, aren't likely to ask for something here.......

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jul 97 - 04:59 PM

Buzz--the "hard rock geeks, etc," aren't here in largenumbers yet, but they have been here. And, I'm sorry to disagree, but Schooner Fair's definition of folk music -- "that music which people sing" is so broad as to be almost totally useless! It is simply a rhetorical device used by those who don't WANT to have real categories and be asked to keep them separate. For some purposes, it is of great benefit to be able to sort our universe into categories--whether the subject be recipes, computer software programs,religious holidays ,or types of music! No one can make you agree to any particular ordering and listing....but that does not mean that someone elses catagories should be freely ignored...and the sign over the door here says "traditional"...(a concept that Schooner Fair seems not to have studied extensively) ;-)

"Strive for simplicity-but learn to mistrust it"
_Alfred North Whitehead

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From: Rick
Date: 07 Jul 97 - 03:39 AM

Bill D

That's a fair point you make there about sign above door saying "traditional". My daughters think the Beatles are traditional, since their parents have been humming and singing the songs as long as they have been alive, without ever (until recently anyway) hearing the band play them. So, if you must categorise things, how do you define "tradition". Is there a fixed time (e.g. so many years old as with vintage cars), or is based on oral passing down of tunes and lyrics (in which case this whole site is redundant :-)...

Elsie's point about Dick Greenhouse moderating the database is good enough for me though. I'll (eventually) submit songs which I think fit my definition of traditional, and let Dick decide.

Cheers

Rick.

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From:
Date: 07 Jul 97 - 03:40 PM

of course there's no standard measure as to 'when' a song becomes traditional..and age is only a small part of 'what' makes a song folk/trad....style,subject matter,origin,musical complexity,melodic structure,mode of transmission...etc.,etc....all are part of a complex equation with different weight given to different aspects..and no consensus as to the parts or the weighting! We all sort of USE a formula, even if it is more implicit than explicit. Mine has a lot of parts and some tightly defined weighting of each part. Mind you, I don't use this to decide which songs I will like and/or sing!!.....only to decide which of the songs I like & sing are folk/trad or close to it!! In this way I decide whether to submit one to the database (where Dick G will apply HIS standards!) or whether I should post an inquiry about it..(or answer an inquiry about it!)
There can never be total agreement on all this, but I hope to keep this issue on the table enough that people will at least think about asking for the words to some recent rock song or their favorite singer-songwriters latest creation.
I am beginning to write up my ideas on what a 'folk-formula' might look like and how it could be used without sounding heavy handed and opinionated. When I get it clear enough for a discussion, I'll post some sort of notice...till then...lets all keep making music!!

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Jul 97 - 04:35 PM

I'm flabbergasted. I've been accused of many things (including "commercial", "traditional" and "old-timey". But possessing good taste? OMIGOD!

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Jul 97 - 08:43 AM

I like folk and folksongs (not exclusively, but mostly in English language) since many years, I like them for the music, the style of presentation, and for the lyrics. However, the boundaries of the set of folksongs are fuzzy. I know songs that definitely fall within the category and others that definitely don't. But in between there are many songs (contemporary but written in folk style; folksingers own songs; modern variant of an old song; a modern song on an old folk theme) for which I am not sure how some of the contributors in this thread would classify them. To give you a few examples:
-I started liking Irish folk with Planxty, because I liked the music. Later I wanted to know what they were singing about. When you are reading the small print on the record you can find out that Follow me up to Carlow is traditional and The West Coast of Clare isn't. I liked them both and tried hard to find the words for these songs. (no request BTW)
- Should we allow the old Jamie Foyers and disallow the new Jamie Foyers for we know it has been written this century and even by whom?
- This group gave me several song lyrics in the last weeks I had been looking for quite a while, from very traditional (Annan Water) to contemporary (Rock on, Rock all). I have contributed at the same time from new songs (All the little children, from the Sands Family) to old ones (Sedgfield Fair). From my point of view a criterion is whether the song can be found recorded by a folkgroup or a folksinger and not whether it bears the label traditional.
- Many if not most groups and individual singers to be found under the label folk have a fine mixture of traditional and contemporary songs. Think of The Battlefield Band, Christy Moore, Dick Gaughan, to name but a few.
- I have seen the label "traditional" on records given to songs I knew to be contemporary (perhaps the best state a songwriter can attain in folk, to be forgotten as an individual, but I am not sure they would see it this way).

I think this problem is mostly handled allright in this group, by polite redirections to other sites, by some of you perhaps by not responding to requests for after-CHILD songs, and by others by responding with more liberal criteria even to requests for modern songs if theses are performed true to style by at least one group or soloist.

What is true to style. Don't ask me that. I know it but I can't communicate about it. And if I tried it would be wrong at least some of the time for some of you. Yours Wolfgang

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jul 97 - 03:05 PM

*scrolling up & reading*...ah, Dick...I suspect I would say you have good judgement about questionable taste...you DID collect that "How Can I Keep from Swinging" item from me ;-).

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From:
Date: 08 Jul 97 - 06:05 PM

i'm trying to find words to russian folk song Volga Boat Song. would appreciate any help. Thanks

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From: A of A
Date: 09 Jul 97 - 10:28 AM

See the thread "What is a Folk Song?"

Cheers,
Alan

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 08:40 PM

Old thread, out of date now. There was a link to a site for Australian Folk Songs, now no longer valid. There is one with midi and lyrics, some sheet music, at http://crixa.com/music/songnet/songs.html

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 08:49 PM

Under Mudcat "Links", the one for Australian Folk Songs don't work no mo'.

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From: Art Thieme
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 09:13 PM

Elsie,

Many of us agree with you pretty much completely. If you stay here arguing on this, it'll do nothing but frustrate you unbelievably.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 10:33 PM

Hi, Dicho - thanks for the alert. I updated the Links page. I think the URL you provided is the new address of the same site. Great site, isn't it? Click here for Australian Folk Songs.

Art- Alas, poor Elsie left us long ago. She posted her last message in August, 1997. Although she posted only 29 messages, she is still revered by us old-timers for her curmudgeonry. She complained bitterly whenever anybody spoke of something she didn't consider to be "folk" - but she never posted any music information herself. Go figure.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From: GUEST,celticblues5
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 10:54 PM

Joe -

Your local library should have sheet music anthologies for Gershwin, Hart, etc. - even the library in our little town of 12K has that sort of thing. And if you live in/near a college town, they most assuredly would.

Re typing music: Folk & pop often blur. Big Mama Thornton did "Hound Dog" bluesier (and, I think, earlier - please correct me if I'm wrong) than Elvis. And Ella took a traditional nursery rhyme & turned it into a piece of classic pop. A couple of metal bands have covered "Whiskey in the Jar." I've heard songs from musicals altered to fit a traditional sound format. As long as it gives pleasure, so what?

I don't mind having the DT limited in scope, but I surely do appreciate people posting links for songs in other genres! Thank-you, thank-you! :-)

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 11:05 PM

Hi, Celticblues - this thread started in 1997, and much has changed since then. The copyright cops have shut down some good lyrics sites, but you can still get Gershwin and Hart and their ilk at Rabid Squirrel's Jazz Archive, and pop at Lyrics World.
Mudcat has changed, too - now it seems that less than half the discussion is about any kind of music. Maybe Elsie was right.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 01:16 PM

Funny, some people don't read the posting dates. I revived this old thread because it had a posting about an Australian folk song site whose URL had changed, also the link given by Mudcat was out of date. Joe has updated the link. Much has changed in four years- a proliferation of sites, and changes in the "rules" as noted by Joe.

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 01:37 PM

I like these old timey threads coming back. Especially when people don't look at the dates, and jump in to a long retired argument with long departed ghosts. (I've done that a few times myself.)

But the more I delve into the old days (old days for a site that started in 1996!) the more it seems to me that remarkably little has changed. Maybe there are more non-music threads, in proportion, and more joshing around - the only way to be sure would be to delve back threads by thread and co-relate them with the dates.

" "If seven maids with seven mops
Swept it for half a year,
Do you suppose", the Walrus said,
"That they could get it clear?"
I doubt it" said the Carpenter,
And shed a bitter tear.

Personally I am convinced that, if it's all going on in another few years (and I desperately hope it will be), people are going be be lamenting the lost glories of 2001. Which will still be all around them, I sincerely trust.

Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SONG FINDING LINK!!
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 02:31 PM

McGrath reminded me of something I was thinking about last week as I watched some of the old TV programs from the 50's on the specialty channels. The humor and intelligence of the time is missing in many of today's programs (a few of the British programs are the main exception). McGrath is right in that we always lose much of the past as time rolls on and society "globifies" into a politically correct gruel. I wasn't implying that the proliferation of urls is all to the good. Trash is increasing exponentially but there are some good or improved sites out there. I am glad, though, that Mudcat has archived the old threads. I have gone to several for information that I couldn't locate elsewhere.