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Lyr Req: Cornwall Forever

robinia 22 Nov 06 - 12:11 PM
Little Robyn 22 Nov 06 - 01:38 PM
robinia 23 Nov 06 - 04:45 PM
masato sakurai 23 Nov 06 - 05:23 PM
robinia 23 Nov 06 - 06:56 PM
robinia 24 Nov 06 - 11:46 AM
Cats 24 Nov 06 - 12:14 PM
Little Robyn 24 Nov 06 - 03:14 PM
greg stephens 24 Nov 06 - 06:36 PM
GUEST 24 Nov 06 - 07:19 PM
GUEST,robinia 25 Nov 06 - 03:22 AM
Jim Dixon 28 Nov 06 - 12:55 AM
breezy 28 Nov 06 - 04:54 AM
GUEST,Cats 28 Nov 06 - 06:11 AM
breezy 28 Nov 06 - 06:27 AM
GUEST,Cats 28 Nov 06 - 08:55 AM
breezy 28 Nov 06 - 09:12 AM
Cats 28 Nov 06 - 12:35 PM
breezy 28 Nov 06 - 12:36 PM
robinia 28 Nov 06 - 01:59 PM
Cats 28 Nov 06 - 02:59 PM
robinia 28 Nov 06 - 05:34 PM
Snuffy 28 Nov 06 - 06:14 PM
GUEST,Cats 29 Nov 06 - 06:15 AM
GUEST,Richard 12 Dec 06 - 04:33 AM
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Subject: Lyr Req: Cornwall Forever
From: robinia
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 12:11 PM

Does anyone know the full lyrics to Cornwall Forever?   You can hear it here and maybe make out more of the words than I can. I hope you know some more verses too because it's a darn good song, another spin on a marching cry of "shall Trelawny die, shall Trelawny die, then twenty thousand Cornishmen will know the reason why."

I know, that's not quite how it appears in the better known Song of the Western Men (or Trelawny) which according to Brycchan Carey, was "extrapolated" by the Rev. R.S. Hawker around 1835 from this "well known Cornish proverb." But that's how I first met it, as a marching cry for the "men of the west," in the pages of a history book. It seems that in 1688 James II had imprisoned the Archbishop of Canterbury and six bishops (including Trelawny), and threatened them with beheading for refusing to proclaim from the pulpit his Declaration of Indulgence (it allowed Catholics to hold public office). Cornwall, at this time, was staunchly Protestant, and the men of the west were said to be "rising"--maybe marching on London?--with this rousing sentiment on their lips. Wow, I thought. You could SING those words.

Postscript to both songs: the rebellion never materialized, as the bishops were tried and (amid great public rejoicing) acquitted. But James wasn't off the hook; in the same year, after his Catholic second wife gave birth to a son (the future "bonny prince Charlie") and Parliament invited William of Orange, the "Protestant hero of Europe" (and the king's son-in-law) to come to England's aid . . . well, James fled the country. We call it the "Glorious Revolution"--a wonderfully bloodless model, I think, for regime change. . .

I'm not suggesting the either SONG goes back that far, but their dramatic core does. And call it what you will, marching cry or proverb, those rousing traditional words are clearly English ones. They're not a translation of any original Cornish words; on the contrary, the Cornish verses to Trelawny that Peter Kennedy lists before the traditional English ones in his Folksongs of Britain and Ireland were only fitted to the song in 1966 (as I learn from notes at the end of the chapter)! It's a confusing way to present the song and conveys to the casual reader a false impression only perpetuated in the Digital Tradition (where Trelawny is listed, I think, as "gaelic-cornish")   

Of course, Cornwall Forever isn't listed at all in the DT; if it were, I woudn't have started this polemical post.   Because, honest, all I wanted was the rest of the words to a song.

Link fixed. You had "cornfever/ram" where you should have had "cornfever.ram". --JoeClone, 27-Nov-06.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Cornwall Forever
From: Little Robyn
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 01:38 PM

James wasn't off the hook; in the same year, after his Catholic second wife gave birth to a son (the future "bonny prince Charlie")

I think you'll find King James IIs son was James, the 'Pretender' to the throne, who was responsible for the 1715 uprising. (Perhaps not responsible enough?)
Bonny Prince Charlie, the 'Young Pretender' was the next generation and took part in the 1745 uprising on behalf of his father (who in fact, never quite made it).
Robyn


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Cornwall Forever
From: robinia
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 04:45 PM

Still hoping for the words to Cornwall Forever (and discovering that fmy link doesn't work. At least not from here ... )

(And thank you Little Robyn, for correcting my sloppy history)!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Cornwall Forever
From: masato sakurai
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 05:23 PM

Listen to a choir version at YouTube (Re: American YouTube Kernow Bys Vyken - Cornwall Forever).


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Cornwall Forever
From: robinia
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 06:56 PM

Sorry, Masato, but that's the Trelawny song I already know; Cornwall For Ever, with a completely different tune, ends each verse, however, with "Cornwall for ever and shall Trelawny die, then twenty thousand Cornishmen will know the reason why."

Let me try the link again. This should take you to a page of Cornish Folk Songs with Cornwall Forever at the bottom (scroll down and click). Perhaps someone with better audio reception than me can get all the words. It's tantalizing just to get the familiar bit.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Cornwall Forever
From: robinia
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 11:46 AM

Still hoping for the words....   New link works.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Cornwall Forever
From: Cats
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 12:14 PM

Yes, but to get into real player you have to put in your credit card details.....


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Cornwall Forever
From: Little Robyn
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 03:14 PM

Where are our Cornish catters? Hawker? Kernow John?
I suspect it's a choral type song that someone has put together. It's not mentioned in any of my old books. And I don't recall any folkies singing it either.
Robyn


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Cornwall Forever
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 06:36 PM

Sorry, this old Cornish Boy doesn't know this song! Glad you mentioned the Kennedy semi-fakery of Cornish language"traditional" songs. he did a great disservice to Cornish culture by publishing that "Celtic" jisggery-pokery.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Cornwall Forever
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 07:19 PM

Sorry about RealPlayer being a block to some of you hearing the song -- because, whenever put together, it really wants to stick in my head and I feel kinda silly caroling away, "Cornwall Forever, da da da da da da, Cornwall forever Da da da da da da. Cornwall forever and shall Trelawny die, here's twenty thousand Cornishmen will know the reason why."   Need to fell in those da da da's (possibly associated with rugby clubs?). . .

Thanks for the kind words, Greg! I was wondering if I was out on a limb here . . . But I WAS taken aback recently to discover that Cornish revivalists haven't even settled on what they're reviving. i.e., there're three competing forms of modern Cornish . . .


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Cornwall Forever
From: GUEST,robinia
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 03:22 AM

Hey, "Guest" was me--robinia--and I'm still trying to fill (not fell) in those da da da's. . .


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Subject: Lyr Add: CORNWALL FOREVER
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 12:55 AM

Lyrics copied from http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/CORNISH/1999-05/0927646084 and corrected by me. (That web site used the spelling "Trelawney" which is why it was hard to find.) I believe these words now correspond to the recording that was linked to above.

CORNWALL FOREVER
^^
Cornwall forever! We rally at the call.
Cornwall forever! We're coming one and all.
Cornwall forever, and shall Trelawny die?
Here's twenty thousand Cornishmen will know the reason why.
Cornwall forever, and shall Trelawny die?
Here's twenty thousand Cornishmen will know the reason why.

Fish, tin and copper! Make way for Cornishmen.
Fish, tin and copper! Here comes Tre, Pol and Pen.
Fish, tin and copper, and shall Trelawny die?
Here's twenty thousand Cornishmen will know the reason why.
Cornwall forever and shall Trelawny die?
Here's twenty thousand Cornishmen will know the reason why.

* * *

Here's an article about Jonathan Trelawny.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Cornwall Forever
From: breezy
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 04:54 AM

It has hints at other Cornish songs such as 'Tre, Pol and Pen', and
'The Tinners'
which contains the line
'Hoorah fo tin and copper boys and fisheries likewise'

as well as the well known lines from 'Trelawny'

Never heard this one sung arund at all, is it a cobbled version?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Cornwall Forever
From: GUEST,Cats
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 06:11 AM

Hi Breezy - No, I haven't heard it sung down here either.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Cornwall Forever
From: breezy
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 06:27 AM

Then its not then!

hi cats , hows you and J H?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Cornwall Forever
From: GUEST,Cats
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 08:55 AM

We're OK and the very good news is that I don't have nodules in my voice box and the Consultant has found out why I was so poorly in March..... I have muscles in my throat which go into spasm for no apparent reason, so I'm going to have to see a speech and language therapist. Voted for Michaela for the sportsman of the Year SW award this weekend.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Cornwall Forever
From: breezy
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 09:12 AM

Thanks for that cats,

this the catters weightlifting daughter, who is from wadebridge of welsh parentage
Michaela Breeze

, I read out the number at Herga last night and made them write it down, , Johnny Collins and Joyce are fans

For anyome else interested the number is
09015 225221 to vote for the BBC Wales sports person of the year


and
09015 225802 for the BBC South-West sports person of the year

maybe i'll start a thread

Webber and Fentiman at Herga next Monday
£2 a pint


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Cornwall Forever
From: Cats
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 12:35 PM

Start the thread, Breezy


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Cornwall Forever
From: breezy
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 12:36 PM

dunit


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Cornwall Forever
From: robinia
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 01:59 PM

Thanks a bunch, Jim, for the words and the extra history!


Can you suggest more Cornish songs (beyond Trelawny, Fish and Tin, Lamorna, Tinner Boys, Cadgwith Anthem, Sweet Nightingale, White Rose, Camborne Hill, Truro Agricultural Show . )? One that nags at me especially s John Nocky (sp?? chorus is something like "Johnny will ye come along now, Johnny with your big boots on, Johnny won't you stay . . .") Then there's Egleshayle and a funny song about "the old grey duck" and the holly song (St Day Carol), I can listen to Tom Bawcock's Eve, Bowler Hat and Skippers of St. Ives on the net too, and miss even more of the words.   Obviously it's tme I got back to Cornwall.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Cornwall Forever
From: Cats
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 02:59 PM

Robina, you are welcome to come back here to Cornwall anytime. There are some exceptional songwriters in Cornwall at the moment and a wealth of 'traditional' songs as well. If you want to check out a website that has links to whats going on here try Lyngham House music, Mike O'Connors site.


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Subject: RE: Cornwall Forever (or more Cornish Songs)
From: robinia
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 05:34 PM

Ah, Lyngham House got me the lyrics to Jan Knuckey! Now to figure out what a few of the words mean.

Right off there's "Jan Knuckey was a miner bold, as ever was to bal"   Bal? bow?? bawl?? bowl??   Hmm

Then there's "In church 'ee did the Baaz-vile scrape an' made a purty noise." Is the "baaz-vile scrape" a reverential bow of some sort?

And what about "Well, Jan 'e fetched 'es coose one day to tell 'es mind to Grace"?   "coose"? Is that somehow another word for courage?

Thanks in advance, and I'm sure I'll have more questions..


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Cornwall Forever
From: Snuffy
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 06:14 PM

from here
'Bal' is Old Cornish for 'mine place', but was widely replaced, from the 18th century, with the word 'Huel' and then 'Wheal'. A bal maiden, then, means a young woman who worked at the mine. In use, probably from about 1800, it was initially used to describe the younger single women only. Eventually it was used for any female ore dresser, whatever her age or status.
'ee did the Baaz-vile scrape = he did scrape the bass viol (a large stringed instrument something like a modern double bass, often used in old church bands)

According to the Cornish dialect dictionary
Coose. Coosing.............. Chase. Hunt, Pursue
Cooze. Coozing..............ldle gossip. Wasting time
And it also apparently means a wood, but none of these meanings seem the one intended here


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Cornwall Forever
From: GUEST,Cats
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 06:15 AM

Baaz vile means bass viol, a musical instrument. Coose also means cousin.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Cornwall Forever
From: GUEST,Richard
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 04:33 AM

Brenda Wootton kindly wrote down the lyrics of Jan Knuckey abot 30 years ago (with translations into normal English).

Here the 3rd verse:

Boy Jan he "fetched his cowas" one day, (= "very bravely")
To "speak his mind" to Grace (= "tell her the truth")
But when he got inside the door
He didn't "have the face" (= "he was shy")

Kind regards,

Richard


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