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UK Licensing Act - another petition.

mandotim 01 Jan 07 - 01:32 PM
GUEST,FFF-Live Myspace 02 Jan 07 - 09:24 AM
The Shambles 03 Jan 07 - 11:30 AM
The Shambles 08 Jan 07 - 05:57 AM
The Shambles 11 Jan 07 - 06:44 AM
GUEST,Guest 11 Jan 07 - 09:35 AM
Scrump 11 Jan 07 - 09:47 AM
The Barden of England 11 Jan 07 - 11:44 AM
The Shambles 25 Jan 07 - 10:50 AM
SylviaN 27 Jan 07 - 05:11 AM
MikkinNotts 29 Jan 07 - 11:12 AM
Cath 29 Jan 07 - 11:46 AM
The Shambles 30 Jan 07 - 06:07 AM
MikkinNotts 30 Jan 07 - 10:09 AM
Bernard 30 Jan 07 - 10:33 AM
MikkinNotts 30 Jan 07 - 10:53 AM
The Shambles 30 Jan 07 - 11:06 AM
Bernard 30 Jan 07 - 11:33 AM
Blindlemonsteve 30 Jan 07 - 12:33 PM
bubblyrat 30 Jan 07 - 12:57 PM
lilly 30 Jan 07 - 03:18 PM
Herga Kitty 31 Jan 07 - 03:29 PM
The Shambles 01 Feb 07 - 02:52 AM
The Shambles 01 Feb 07 - 02:59 AM
The Shambles 02 Feb 07 - 07:53 AM
The Shambles 02 Feb 07 - 08:02 AM
The Shambles 04 Feb 07 - 05:25 PM
The Shambles 06 Feb 07 - 11:46 AM
The Shambles 06 Feb 07 - 11:47 AM
The Shambles 08 Feb 07 - 01:49 PM
Jim McLean 08 Feb 07 - 04:53 PM
ossonflags 09 Feb 07 - 02:43 PM
The Shambles 10 Feb 07 - 01:09 PM
The Shambles 12 Feb 07 - 02:00 AM
GUEST,Dominic Cronin 12 Feb 07 - 04:44 PM
The Shambles 13 Feb 07 - 05:11 AM
vectis 15 Feb 07 - 09:38 AM
The Shambles 15 Feb 07 - 10:23 AM
Scrump 15 Feb 07 - 10:34 AM
vectis 15 Feb 07 - 11:12 AM
Tootler 15 Feb 07 - 08:17 PM
Scrump 16 Feb 07 - 06:39 AM
vectis 16 Feb 07 - 09:00 AM
The Shambles 16 Feb 07 - 11:31 AM
Scrump 16 Feb 07 - 11:35 AM
vectis 16 Feb 07 - 11:46 AM
The Shambles 19 Feb 07 - 10:07 AM
Scrump 19 Feb 07 - 10:15 AM
The Shambles 21 Feb 07 - 01:52 AM
Barry Finn 21 Feb 07 - 01:53 AM
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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: mandotim
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 01:32 PM

Bernard Wrigley on there...and me!
Tim


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST,FFF-Live Myspace
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 09:24 AM

FFF-Live on Myspace is going strong with over 250 groups and solo artistes on board and spreading the word.

Mainly Traditional Music but a few other genres getting involved now.

The petition needs a lot more pushing if it is to match the previous one!


FFF=Live Crew


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 11:30 AM

2618.


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 05:57 AM

2714


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 06:44 AM

The following from Hamish Birchall.

Please circulate

The live music/licensing e-petition now has nearly 2,800 signatures. It currently stands at no.19 in the list of 1,702 petitions on the Number 10 website: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/

This is good, especially in just under a month - and there are five more months in which people can sign. But the petition needs to do much better to make an impression on ministers, and to encourage DCMS to implement music-friendly amendments.

The petition is for everyone, not just musicians. Please consider signing if you haven't already done so. If you have signed, encourage friends to sign. Points to remember about the new legislation:

The unlicensed provision of even one musician is a potential criminal offence (although some places are exempt, including places of public religious worship, royal palaces and moving vehicles). Max penalty: £20,000 fine and six months in prison.

The rationale is to prevent noise, crime and disorder, to ensure public safety, and the protection of children from harm.
But broadcast entertainment, including sport and music, is exempt - no matter where, and no matter how powerfully amplified.

In the transition to the new regime, bars with jukeboxes, CD players etc were automatically granted a licence to play recorded music; but their automatic entitlement to one or two musicians was abolished.
For the first time, private performances raising money for charity are licensable.

School performances open to friends and family are licensable - they count as public performances.

Under the old regime all premises licensed to sell alcohol for consumption on the premises were automatically allowed up to two live musicians (the 'two in a bar rule').

In December, DCMS published research confirming that about 40% of these have lost any automatic entitlement to live music as a result of the new Act:
'Very few establishments that wanted a new licence were denied it, and many who were previously limited to 2-in-a-bar now have the ability to stage music with 2 or more musicians... This contrasts, of course, with the fact that 40% of establishments now have no automatic means of putting on live music (i.e. they would have to give a TEN).'
['Licensing Act 2003, The experience of smaller establishments in applying for live music authorisation', December 2006', paragraphs 6.1.1 and 6.1.2 'Conclusions', p54; Caroline Callahan, Andy Martin, Anna Pierce, Ipsos-MORI]

'TEN' stands for Temporary Event Notice - in effect a temporary entertainment licence. Only 12 are allowed per premises per year. They cost £21 each. See the full MORI reports on this site:
http://www.culture.gov.uk/Reference_library/Research/research_by_dcms/live_music_exec_summary.htm


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 09:35 AM

"Is anybody coming round to the view that we would actually be better off with a Conservative government ? "

Oh dear!


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Scrump
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 09:47 AM

Is that last Guest a Mr Blair by any chance?


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Barden of England
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 11:44 AM

Is anybody coming round to the view that we would actually be better off with a Conservative government ?


I thought we already had one


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 10:50 AM

3902.


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: SylviaN
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 05:11 AM

Now 4429


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: MikkinNotts
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 11:12 AM

The original petition handed in to Number 10 prior to the PEL becoming law had over 110,000 signatures on it and made no difference.
There is a noticeable absence on the list at present of the big names in folk music ie Billy Bragg, the Carthy family and many more. Which leads me to ask, is this petition being given enough of a high level profile?
This new petition has a very long way to go.

29/01/07 - 5,255

Mikk


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Cath
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 11:46 AM

I don't know whether Holmfirth is an exception but when I walked through the town last Thursday to the Open Mic session at Bistro Number 11 I couldn't help notice a large board outside Carniceria advertising weekly live music gigs, I called at Y Bar and was told about forthcoming gigs, Harrows have weekly events and the Picturedrome has gigs almost every week.
Now I'm not trying to advertise the hostelries of Holmfirth but any change in the licensing regulations seem to have had the opposite effect here and when it comes to the Festival of Folk in May all but one pub will have music going on.
I'm sure some luminary on this newsgroup will have an explanation for why it doesn't seem to be a problem here but it is elsewhere!


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 06:07 AM

Now I'm not trying to advertise the hostelries of Holmfirth but any change in the licensing regulations seem to have had the opposite effect here and when it comes to the Festival of Folk in May all but one pub will have music going on.

The situation before was that although only 5% of available premises were licensed for live music - that some form of live music could still take place in the remaining 95%.

Across the land now, the evidence seems to suggest that as a result of the change - around 40% of available premises are now not able host any performance of live music at all.


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: MikkinNotts
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:09 AM

Which is more reason for making this petition even higher profile. I only came across it on Mudcat. None of the main radio folk presenters are on it Mike Harding, Frank Hennessy, Mick Peat, Lester Simpson

I have attached the link to the bottom all all emails I send out now

Mikk


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Bernard
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:33 AM

My name's on it...


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: MikkinNotts
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:53 AM

and mine..


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:06 AM

Which is more reason for making this petition even higher profile.

And of course the fact that the live music that is permitted - is only taking place - subject to many conditions.

And although the imposition standard or 'blanket' conditions on live music are supposed to have died with the old legislation - most local authorities appear to require the installation of noise-limiters for every application for live music.


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Bernard
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:33 AM

Hah! So often I've played at ceilidhs where the 'traffic light' system is tripped when people are clapping as the top couple dances down the set...!!


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 12:33 PM

Hi All
This licensing law act is a farce, i live in Spain, there probably is some regulation, but no one would ever take any notice of it, i could take my guitar down the local bar, play for as long as i like, and when the local policeman has finished his Brandy and polished his gun, he would probably join in with his harmonica. but if you sold alcohol to kids it would be a problem....isnt that the way it should be.....Thank god i dont live there anymore....


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: bubblyrat
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 12:57 PM

Where is the great British disdain for petty bureaucracy ?? Bugger the government & their stupid,killjoy,rules & regulations. Petitions ?? Forget "em !! Find a suitably bloody-minded landlord, & just get on with playing & singing as usual !! If the police decide to act,and send in the SAS with tear-gas, then it will just add to the public perception of this bunch of wanquers as the worst government we have ever had. If they REALLY can"t find any issues more worthy of their attention,then they deserve to be overthrown, by force if necessary. I LOVE my country DEARLY ,and I cannot STAND to see it in such chaos and disarray .Give me the leader ,& I will follow!!


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: lilly
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 03:18 PM

Pub in my hometown seems to be letting folkies play and sod the bits of paper!! No one has complained, even the local bobby has been in to listen! Just get on with the music.


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 03:29 PM

I signed a while ago, but received an e-mail today forwarded (by another former Flower of May), from Doug Bailey and Dave Hunt which indicated that the Licensing Act petition had made it up to 17th position, with over 4,000 signatures. Of course the petition against road pricing has over 100 times as many signatures.

Kitty


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 02:52 AM

6581


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 02:59 AM


The original petition handed in to Number 10 prior to the PEL becoming law had over 110,000 signatures on it and made no difference.


Well it is difficult to prove such a thing - I suggest that without that petition the Act would have been even worse.

See http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page4259.asp for Number Ten Downing Street's
full response to the E Petition.

Which includes the following.

We believe that the Act will make it simpler and more affordable than now to stage live entertainment in the vast majority of cases and increase opportunities for musicians and other artists to perform

We have also given an undertaking that we will review the existing descriptions of entertainment in the Act six to twelve months after the end of the transition period. If the Act has had an unintended, disproportionate negative effect on the provision of live music -or other forms of regulated entertainment-, there are powers already in the Bill to modify the position through secondary legislation. However we believe that the provisions in the Licensing Act will allow live music and other regulated entertainment to thrive.


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 07:53 AM

The following from Hamish Birchall

Please circulate

More than 6,680 people have now signed the licensing/live music e-petition on the Number 10 site:
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/

As a result the petition has reached number 13 in the list of over 2,500 on this site. By the end of this month it should be well within the top 10.

But many more signatures are needed to attract national media attention, and to encourage the government to make music-friendly changes to the legislation: the Licensing Act 2003.

Please consider signing if you haven't already done so. If you have signed, encourage friends to sign. Points to remember about the new law:

The unlicensed provision of even one musician is a potential criminal offence (although some places are exempt, including places of public religious worship, royal palaces and moving vehicles). Max penalty: £20,000 fine and six months in prison.

The rationale is to prevent noise, crime and disorder, to ensure public safety, and the protection of children from harm.

But broadcast entertainment, including sport and music, is exempt no matter where, and no matter how powerfully amplified.

In the transition to the new regime in 2005, bars with jukeboxes, CD players etc were automatically granted a licence to play recorded music; but their automatic entitlement to one or two live musicians was abolished.

For the first time, private performances raising money for charity are licensable.

School performances open to friends and family are licensable - they count as public performances.

Under the old regime all premises licensed to sell alcohol for consumption on the premises were automatically allowed up to two live musicians (the 'two in a bar rule').

Last December, DCMS published research confirming that about 40% of these have lost any automatic entitlement to live music as a result of the new Act:
'Very few establishments that wanted a new licence were denied it, and many who were previously limited to 2-in-a-bar now have the ability to stage music with 2 or more musicians... This contrasts, of course, with the fact that 40% of establishments now have no automatic means of putting on live music (i.e. they would have to give a TEN).'
['Licensing Act 2003, The experience of smaller establishments in applying for live music authorisation', December 2006', paragraphs 6.1.1 and 6.1.2 'Conclusions', p54; Caroline Callahan, Andy Martin, Anna Pierce, Ipsos-MORI]

'TEN' stands for Temporary Event Notice - in effect a temporary entertainment licence. Only 12 are allowed per premises per year. They cost £21 each. See the full MORI reports on this site:
http://www.culture.gov.uk/Reference_library/Research/research_by_dcms/live_music_exec_summary.htm


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 08:02 AM

'My view is that there will be an explosion in live music as a result of removing the discriminatory two-in-a-bar provision'
(Lord McIntosh, House of Lords, 26 November 2002).


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 05:25 PM

The following was posted on uk.music folk.

When I visited http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing today, the
petition was at 12th place with 7662 signatures. It seems likely to be
in the top ten soon. This is very good news, and I would like to thank
everyone who has signed or made it their business to publicise the
petition. Please keep up the good work.

If you visit http://www.cronin.co.uk/licensing you will find that you can download a flyer explaining the issues and asking for support. If
any of you are able to print this out and display it somewhere useful,
I would very much appreciate it.

I would also like to gather some information about the sessions and
folk clubs which have been closed down as a result of the Licensing
Act. My intention is to list these on the web site, so obviously it's
important to be able to show a reasonably plausible link between the
closure and the act. If you can help with such information, please
send an email to petition@cronin.co.uk (There are some pretty
aggressive spam filters in place, so if you don't get an
acknowledgement within a few days, please try again with less
references to rolexes and viagra.)

Thanks again.

--

Dominic Cronin
Amsterdam


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 11:46 AM

The petition gets a good write up here.

Todays Times - Article on Music Licensing


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 11:47 AM

8,307


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 01:49 PM

9,407


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 04:53 PM

Hi The Shamble,
I read the article in the Times and have no problems with Gordon Brown singing The Ballad of Glencoe (or as I initially called it, The Massacre of Glencoe) but I doubt he's more inclined to sing 'Come awa' England)!


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: ossonflags
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 02:43 PM

See also bev - sun its on there


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 01:09 PM

10,402


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:00 AM

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/

10,944


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST,Dominic Cronin
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 04:44 PM

Dear all,

Thanks for the support for the petition.

I know some people think it's too inclusive, but let's get one thing straight right now. The law already had ample provision for dealing with nuisance. Any suggestions of that being the intention were simply smoke and mirrors.

Personally, I fully support people's right to have raves, classical concerts, whatever. (Of course, if they infringe on other people's quiet enjoyment of their homes, then the environmental health officers from the council can do their bit.)

Support for the petition is also coming from outside the world of folk music.

http://www.cronin.co.uk/licensing


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 05:11 AM

The following from Hamish Birchall

Please circulate

Over 11,400 people have signed the live music/licensing petition on the Number 10 website. At the time of writing it stands at number 8 in the list of nearly 3,000 petitions and is likely to climb higher today:
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/

The petition was backed by Libby Purves in The Times on 6 February:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk:80/tol/comment/columnists/libby_purves/article1336496.ece

In the last few days the Number 10 petition website has attracted widespread media coverage due to the petition opposing the government's road pricing proposals . See today's online Guardian, for example: http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs/story/0,,2011954,00.html

Ministers, and some in the press, have cast doubt on the value of such petitions. But one thing is clear: a successful petition does raise public and media awareness about an issue, making it more difficult for politicians to ignore.

In the next few weeks, the Live Music Forum will present its recommendations for improvement of the Licensing Act to ministers.

Please consider signing the petition if you haven't already done so. If you have signed, encourage friends to sign. Points to remember about the new law:

For the first time, private performances raising money for charity are illegal unless licensed.

School performances open to friends and family are licensable - they count as public performances.

The unlicensed provision of even one musician is a potential criminal offence - although some places are exempt, including places of public religious worship, royal palaces and moving vehicles. Max penalty: £20,000 fine and six months in prison.

The rationale is to prevent noise, crime and disorder, to ensure public safety, and the protection of children from harm.
But broadcast entertainment, including sport and music, is exempt no matter where, and no matter how powerfully amplified.

In the transition to the new regime in 2005, bars with jukeboxes, CD players etc were automatically granted a licence to play recorded music; but their automatic entitlement to one or two live musicians was abolished.

Under the old regime all premises licensed to sell alcohol for consumption on the premises were automatically allowed up to two live musicians (the 'two in a bar rule').

Last December, DCMS published research confirming that about 40% of these have lost any automatic entitlement to live music as a result of the new Act:
'Very few establishments that wanted a new licence were denied it, and many who were previously limited to 2-in-a-bar now have the ability to stage music with 2 or more musicians... This contrasts, of course, with the fact that 40% of establishments now have no automatic means of putting on live music (i.e. they would have to give a TEN).'
['Licensing Act 2003, The experience of smaller establishments in applying for live music authorisation', December 2006', paragraphs 6.1.1 and 6.1.2 'Conclusions', p54; Caroline Callahan, Andy Martin, Anna Pierce, Ipsos-MORI]

'TEN' stands for Temporary Event Notice - in effect a temporary entertainment licence. Only 12 are allowed per premises per year. They cost £21 each. See the full MORI reports on this site:
http://www.culture.gov.uk/Reference_library/Research/research_by_dcms/live_music_exec_summary.htm


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: vectis
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 09:38 AM

I have now tried every day for the last ten days to sign this and so far have not received the e-mail needed to confirm the signature. This could mean that the number of people signing is a lot higher than the numbers on the petition would indicate.


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 10:23 AM

That is now showing at 13,076.

Let us know when they send out your Email.


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 10:34 AM

Re. the confirmatory emails: I got mine but Mrs Scrump didn't get hers, even though she has the same domain name/server as mine. I wonder if the site isn't sending all the emails out, or whether it does a check on the IP address or something? That means people using the same computer to vote might not be able to, and the number of votes could be smaller than it should be.


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: vectis
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 11:12 AM

According to their FAQs they only allow one signature from each computer to stop people inputting multiple signatures. This is because it is too easy to get loads of e-mail addys now.
So one of you will have to sign from somewhere else.


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Tootler
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:17 PM

I had to try twice. The first time I got no confirmatory email, but the second time, several days later I did.


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Scrump
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 06:39 AM

So it means only one person can vote per household in most cases, then. The system is badly flawed.


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: vectis
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 09:00 AM

Just got a confirmatory e-mail on the 12th try. I put in a non-Hotmail address and it went through immediately.


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 11:31 AM

13,876

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/

So if it is only one signature per houshold - do we just double the figure?


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Scrump
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 11:35 AM

Yes, I would think so! Might be worth bearing this stupid rule in mind for future petitions.


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: vectis
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 11:46 AM

My house has a LAN fitted and my son has managed to sign the same petition as me from a different computer but via the same router. So it obviously is not the same house that's the problem maybe it is the same computer that is the problem. In which case all you need to do is borrow a laptop and sign via that. Is there a techie out there who knows what the petition site can 'see' and therefore control when you vote.


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 10:07 AM

15,871


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Scrump
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 10:15 AM

Yes, but I would guess that many people only have one PC in the house. And if you borrow a laptop that might stop its owner using it to sign the petition.

They should check a combination of name, email address and PC IP no. or something, and only disallow the vote if they are all the same as one already received. At the moment, it seems they only check the IP address (I think, anyway), because my wife's email address, and (perhaps obviously!) name, are different from mine. So it must be based on using the same computer only.


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 01:52 AM

Is everyone who signed this petition also going to get an emailed reply from our Prime Minister?


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Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 01:53 AM

100!


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