BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 12:03 PM

Hey you two, you weren't being tailed were you?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 01:22 PM

I'm intrigued by Countess Richard's statement that Jon Host is an fact a Smooth Ops man. If true, I find this slightly disturbing. Wouldn't you expect the moderator of a BBC message board to be a BBC person? Is this what they call out-sourcing, or is it off-shoring? I'm not that familiar with the world of business.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Fiona
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 01:52 PM

Hi Greg, the host Jon, works for Smoooth Ops who are also responsible for maintaining the BBC Folk & Acoustic website. Most BBC hosts are volunteers associated with the programme the messageboard relates to. I think since folk is an area of special interest they decided to tie in the boards hosting to the website providers.

There are other hosts, I thinkmaybe from the BBC community team, much in evidence lately as they've been closing/changing the messageboards. A good host can make a huge difference, if you look at the Archers board the host is a member of the programmes production team and very proactive. Sadly the old host Mel, wasn't about much and this has contributed to some of the troubles on the BBC board.

Hope that helps,

fx

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Fiona
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 01:54 PM

Rats, I meant to add the moderators aren't anything to do with the hosts, they check messages in time order from all the boards and only really deal with the house rules.

BTW hi Peter!

fx

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 01:57 PM

So, if someone tries to complain about Smooth operations on its own website, they are greeted by a photo of someone making a V-sign. So, the person decides to go to the BBC to complain about Smooth Operations. Only to find their letter is being moderated by someone from Smooth Operations. Seems a bit odd to me. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes, as Jeeves used to say.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 02:00 PM

Fiona: you'll have to explain, I'm new to this world. is the chap called jon_host a host, or a moderator? What is the difference?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Fiona
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 02:01 PM

Sorry greg, no 'hosts' and 'moderators' are different if you follow the 'about the bbc' link at the foot of the page on the board there's more info. I'll try to find a link for you but the Archers are starting......

fx

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 02:04 PM

Jon Lewis is a host who works for Smoothops.
Mods are mindless BBC bureaucrats who zap stuff randomly.
The twin neither meet nor communicate.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 02:05 PM

Ahem, Twain.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Fiona
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 02:11 PM

Try this link for some info, I just noticed a bit on freedon of inforamtion too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/editorialguidelines/onguide/interacting/

fx

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 03:41 PM

One little point forcibly struck me the other day. I have read quite a few messages from a lot of people on this subject, and have had numerous conversations about the awards with folk performers and folk fans. And I honestly can't remember one person expressing the opinion that they believed Seth Lakeman's White Hare to be a traditional English folk song. Except John Leonard, that is, the man who runs Smooth Operations (ie his is the private company that runs the Mike Harding Show abd the BBC Folk Awards). So I can't help thinking he is way out of touch on mainstream folk opinion on this one.
    (I fully appreciate that at least two people must have voted for it in this category, but that does not necessarily prove that they believed it belonged in the category: it might just mean they wanted it to win).

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST, whistleblower
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 06:21 PM

I think it's significant that Leonard has not felt able to answer, in any meaningful way, ANY of the questions asked of him here or on the BBC site - (even after admitting that he does keep an eye on both, so ignorance can be no defence).

There can be only two reasons:

1) He thinks our concerns are so beneath his dignity as to require no response. (The Enron Policy)

2) He cannot compose any answer without risking some incrimination of himself, his company or his awards - so silence is his only option. (The Jarvis Policy)

In either event that makes him unworthy of the salary that the BBC provides him on our behalf.


John - if you've never been on a media or a PR training course (which I must assume you haven't, because you're breaking every basic rule in the book), may I humbly suggest you buy yourself one for Christmas?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 06:47 PM

Try this link for some info, I just noticed a bit on freedon of inforamtion too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/editorialguidelines/onguide/interacting/

fx

Freedom of Information cannot apply - see my post 14/12/06

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 07:40 PM

Freedom of information act should not be necessary.

Leonard is bound by his BBC contract to respond: To be transparent, open and honest - exactly as if he was a BBC employee.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,jOhn
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 07:21 AM

I reckon the bbc folk website is a load of shit anyway.

a while ago i joined it, and posted about a new folk club that i;d opened in hull, my post was deleted/never got put on to start with, when i asked why, i got told some crap about no advertising allowed.
load of shit, if you open a folk club, why cant you plug it on a folk site then? if i was advertisingf a car or trying to sell my guitar, then i could understand, but they are just rubbish, and shit, and i wont post nothing there anymore, so i left.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 07:43 AM

Your assessment of the BBC radio 2 message board is 100% correct jOhn.

eric

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 08:11 AM

Hello you catters
Interesting thread guess things have not improved since we stopped listening to the Mike Harding show ayear or so ago.
I hope the awards are not fixed as some seem to be implying here,but if they are why are they any different to all those other trade awards that are handed out every year?
You know? The ones were the major award winners seem to be the same as the list of sponsors of the event.
Someone was making a point about the tradition being fixed?
I presume in the context of there being some sort of a cut of date and anything after that is not Traditional.
It makes me laugh when a bunch of middle class wazzocks start howling and whining when they suspect that they are not being treated fairly in some way.
Grow up and get real most of the rest of your felow human beings on this planet spend all their lives being shat on by the "professional" classes.
If you want to be included in BBC folk awards go and lick arse its what you are good at.(sorry my mate ,I obviously meant do some networking! he he.)
If you are not intersted in winning it then why not go write a song about it instead of starting yet another whinge on here?
Oh BTW whats the best guitar to buy?
Merry Xmas one and all.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 08:20 AM

"why are they any different to all those other trade awards that are handed out every year"

Because, unlike all the other trade awards, they are sponsored by the BBC. Which hapens to be owned by middle, upper and working class wazzocks alike. See?

Licking should not be necessary anyway. I don't stand a snowball's chance of ever being considered, and never did. But I still think we should all always speak out for natural justice.

You don't - that's your choice.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 08:59 AM

There are a lot better causes for speaking out about natural justice on this dirtball planet,and whoever told you that there are any working class persons who have any ownership of anything is this middle class dictatorship we live in?
Maybe you mean because poor people pay taxes that are proportionaly higher in there effect on our living standards,we would have a stake in what the BBC does?
That is rubbish,we live in a democracy that is designed to maintain the middle and upper classes in their positions of power
The only reason you lot are moaning is that you are used to getting your own way,you feel ignored and not part of the establishment,no longer on the inside,but out in the cold with the rest of us.
Well tough!
You only belong as long as you agree to be told what to think,you need to be carefull you might start to feel marginalised and excluded
then people who dont have the balls to disagree with the system will start to humour you and snigger behind your back.
You may be shunned in Sainsbury's and passed over for promotion at work.
LOL
Better start practising your pucker then they will maybe take some of your veiws on board and you never know perhaps in a year or two if you are really good...
and without admitingthat they have changed their policies in any way you may get to be allowed to ?
What is it you want to happen exactly?
I dont think there was any mention of that on the whole of this thread was there?
Take the prize back?
Give it too .... do any of you even have another recipient in mind?
Of course you wouldnt want it yourselves thats not the point is it?
LOL
ANd a happy new year!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 02:26 PM

Tim,

why are so angry at us? This is what we want:

"I think we have discussed and rehearsed the arguments. I suggest that those who are dissatisfied with the current arrangements for who gets what should keep asking the BBC about two issues:

1. The White Hare, by any current deffinition, is not a traditional song.

2. The method of deciding who gets awards is unclear, unavailable and not trusted by lots of people who are the natural and continuing supporters of folk music.

If these points do not matter then neither do the Awards. Since the Awards are the BBC Awards, the BBC should:

1. Remove the song from the traditional catergory

2. Tell Snooth Opps to reveal the details of exactly how Awards are given

3. Organise a system that is open, transparent and trusted."

Se post 1.

You seem to assume we are all kinds of things and are guilty(?) of all kinds of class offences and that this thread and traditional song is all we care about.

I have posted on here for a few years and it seems to me that lots of people have lots of opinions and say that they take action about some of them. I guess you do as well. That makes you a bit like us doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:32 PM

Not at all I assume you are all decent humans beings who are getting hung up about as you see it unfair winning of awards by Mr Lakeman.
My point is what does it matter?
The world is an unfair place for the majority of the population all the time.
This appears to me to be the out pouring of luke warm anger over something trivial in the scheme of things and basically some nice middle income middle englanders are a bit miffed that they dont agree with the way some other middle income middle englanders have given out an award.
The one party works for a londoncentric Broadcaster or their representetives the rest of you ?????
Just enjoy the school hols, have afine time with freinds and relations and if there is anything illegal going on the lawyers among you can progress things along the usual channels.
There are worse things being done in your Name(and Mine) that could really do with some pressure on our great leaders from people like you. Witty inteligent well educated etc.
Thats all folks
Cheers
Tim

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 04:01 PM

Seth Lakeman hasn't done anything wrong, nor has he won anything - yet. The Awards ceremony is not until next February. If Tim would care to actually read the thread, he might grasp that the putative villains are Smoothops who seem to have somehow 'manipulated' the nomination of one of SL's self-composed songs in the Trad category.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 04:10 PM

Tim the Twangler: troll or rather inaccurate estimator of other people's income and social class? The choice is yours.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 05:00 PM

Or maybe less interested in winning awards than some?
Whats a Troll BTW?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 05:07 PM

I have noticed a remarkable variety of opinions on this thread, but haven't so far detected anyone chasing a Smooth Operations Folk Award yet. We don't move in such rarefied social circles.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 05:18 PM

I forgot to ask.
If someone goes to the trouble of finding lots of bits of old songs and patching them together so they fit into a fairly old tune and sound sort of old and maybe like they should be traditional
Does that make the product of the research,the rewriting and the arranging an acceptable traditional tune or song?
I only ask because I believe that for something to be traditional it has to be part of a tradition and as far as I know an tradition is something that is actualy extant as it would be in say a family tradition of singing a particular song ar drinking a given drink at some point in time in celebration or rememberence of something or someone.
Something that is ongoing could be traditional but can something that is traditional still be considered to be traditional if it is no longer drunk,sung,performed,remembered,etc.
Would a traditional song or tune need reviving,or discovering or finding?
Surely if it were traditional it wouldnt be lost.
What it could be is a tune or song that was traditional in a certain time period.
If it needs reviving or finding or whatever that surely means it is no longer a tradition.
So Mr Lakemans song even if it is not trad at this time may be at some point in the future.
So shouldnt the BBC or their representatives be congratulated for their forsight is shortlisting it now?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 05:54 PM

(1) SL didn't 'find bits of old songs'. He wrote an original one based on a story.
(2) He fitted the song to a tune which may have been quite old (unlikely) or quite new(ish).
(3) No, this does not constitute 'a traditional song'.
(4) The White Hare (in this form) wasn't revived because it wasn't lost. It didn't exist.
(5) The tune is never likely to be considered trad (despite its unknown authorship) because its structure is not trad,
(6) Neither Smoothops nor the BBC are due for any congratulations whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,ChorleyBob
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 06:32 PM

I'm with Tim on this one : there are a (relatively) small number of undoubtedly decent people working themselves up into a lather over something that really doesn't matter in the greater scheme of things.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 08:25 PM

I am sorry that I dont see this as being as important as some of you do.
If there any under hand shenanigans going on I would condem them as you would.
I still dont know what a troll is as applied to me by one of the contributers.
The reason I asked about the patching together of bits of old songs etc is that I recently heard a very well thought of proper folky explain how another of the same was doing this and from his acceptance and enthusiasm for this ladies work(which I dont know)
I have assumed that this is part of finding the music and saving it.
It came over as being part of the way of "the tradition".
I dont know wether it is generally accepted as the way to carry on by those of you who are Traditionalists if I may use that term in a none pejorative way.
If it is then I see no difference between what this guy described to a room full of folkies and what Mr Lakeman seems to have done.
I dont know Mr Lakemans veiw on this but I have generally found people that I have come into contact with on the folk scene to be as honest and straightforward and subject to change as any other group of people.
Perhaps he will withdraw his song or if he has no say in the matter make his veiws known.
I will look in in this thread again but maybe not add anything to what I already contributed.
Have a great festive season and a good new Year.
Dont forget the old saying
Just because you are paranoid .......
LOL
Cheers Tim

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 09:15 PM

Seth Lakeman has already offered to withdraw his song The White Hare, but Smoothops have so far refused to do so. It was not as though he entered it himself into a contest for Best Traditional Track, but that somewhere between 150 'experts' and Smoothops management, it has somehow been contrived that it has become so. Doubtless SL would have been far better pleased had it been nominated for Best Original Song, since it is far better suited to that category (and apparently a number of the jury did nominate it thus). What is certain is that no-one would have batted an eyelid had it been, and it might even have won.

SL has already explained that he described the song originally as trad because he had culled the subject matter from a Cornish legend and the tune from an, as yet, unidentified source musician. No doubt in retrospect he views this as a mistake, I don't think anyone is accusing him of deliberate deception, just of being a tad inaccurate.

The 'patching together' process which Tim describes is a perfectly legitimate activity which Martin Carthy (to name but one) does absolutely all the time and which usually ends up with a trad/arr attribution. The White Hare (other than its title) has absolutely no basis whatsoever in the tradition as a song, and only possibly as a tune. SL has adapted/arranged many other songs which do have an identifiable traditional origin, and could therefore have had a far better claim to pass muster as trad than this one. What is really strange is Smoothops' adamant insistence on this particular track going forward. One has to ask why.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:29 AM

Tim - I'll hazard a guess that you may be talking about Tom Bliss and his version ('Rue') of Mary Humphreys 'No My Love Not I', made from various other songs that Mary found in The Vaughn Williams Library?

If so there is no comparison with The White Hare.

The tune of 'Rue' remains unchanged from the original, and is clearly Trad however you look at it. Also, all the key lyrical phrases in both Mary and Tom's versions are traceable back to the various collected works - and Tom and Mary list all of these in their sleeve notes, web sites and stage intros (time permitting), so people can go back to these sources if they choose to.

The White Hare would equate better to another of the songs on Tom's solo album: Gentle Maids Ashore. This borrows various lyrical and melodic ideas from various traditional songs, to give it an authentic feel, but Tom does not attribute these in his notes (though he gives a few clues) because he has clearly crossed the line from arranging to composing. He has made a brand new song with a new tune and words (even though from an existing story - much like Seth's Hare), so it is registered as a Bliss composition, and rightly so in my opinion.

I'm hoping Tom won't mind me using his name like this. He has contributed a little to the debate on the BBC thread - so sorry Tom if not!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 05:23 AM

Thank you for that and yes I was refering to TB.
As I said I have not heard the song to which he was refering so cant comment on that.
I am getting the sense that the attribution attached to these none traditional songs as apposed to the actual content or musicality
or other merit that you may feel they have is what is stirring the pot here.
So will leave you too it in the (soon to be corrected belief?) that most of you that are agin' the possible award of a prize to Seth ar basing their opinion around the idea that it is ok to cobble together some spare bits and peices from a library.
Stick a nice tune on and voila a "new Trad" song is born.
But if you make a new song based on the telling of a "Trad Story"
that is not acceptable as "Trad"?
This would seem to be the perfect oportunity for one of those interminable threads about what is Trad?
So is this a thread in which the intent is to uncover a plot to award a prize undeservedly to someone in the hopes of somehow making a profit.
Or
Is it that the company involved doesnt adhere to the prefered veiw of some of you as to what is a traditional Song or tune?
I dont personaly take the veiw that anything Martin does is ordained by the gods of acceptability,although I love his music.
There does seem to be a lot of thoughtful energy going to waste here
But thanks to your kindness in trying to illuminate my ignorance I have only three questions I need to have answered to avoid disrupting my sleep pattern.
1,What is a troll?
2.what is the best guitar?
3.WHat is the point of stressing over music ,'tis either of atype you wanna listen to or it aint.
Is all a personal preference thing at the end of the day innit?
Ok four questions.
Have a fun holiday.
Tim Twangling Troll(maybe)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,ChorleyBob
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 05:58 AM

1) A troll is someone who infiltrates a message board to deliberately stir things up ( I think)
2)The best guitars are MARTINS - but I've heard wonderful reports of Loudons
3)I couldn't agree more with questions 3. Well said, sir.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GerryMc
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 06:06 AM



FWIW

I think the White Hare is a great song. I hope it is trad coz I just recorded a version on me new live CD. (Trad. arr GM/SL ?????)


Gerry :-)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 06:14 AM

"3.WHat is the point of stressing over music ,'tis either of atype you wanna listen to or it aint."

You are speaking purely as a consumer, not as a creator, or as someone who makes a living from music. We have a different perspective - as you would if this was about your work and pay packet.

The discussion above is about 1) whether the awards are fair to artists, and 2) whether they will help or hinder the survival of the music we care about (I presume you care, Tim, since you are here).

If it doesn't matter to you, fine. Don't contribute.

This is only 2 threads among thousands. If you're not interested in the debate don't click on this link and post (ithat's what we mean by trolling), click on any one of the hundreds of threads about guitars, where you will find answers to your question 2).

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 06:32 AM

I dont personally take the view that anything Martin does is ordained by the gods of acceptability

For the sake of clarity (would that some would marshall their thoughts into some semblance of which before posting). neither do I and it's not what I said. I was merely describing his reconstruction work, something which Mary Humphreys has done similarly with floating verses. It is not the same as writing a completely new song about a subject (eg a Cornish white bunny) which has never before (as far as can be established) occurred in lyrical form before.

The Folk Awards have two categories, one for Best Traditional Track and another for Best Original Song. It should not be hard to distinguish which songs should be in which, and for the sake of the credibility of the awards and for the profile of our music in general, the process needs to be both accurate and transparent.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST, John C
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 06:37 AM

Maybe the awards should have three 'best song' categories.

Best original

Best traditional

Best reconstruction from trad sources.

Tams' Constant Sorry would have fitted in the last too

In any event the system needs changing

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 06:45 AM

actually there are far too few categories. that's the problem. how about best original tune then - where does that go?

and what's the thinking behind best duo, best band and best live act? are the duo and band not live then? are people supposed to be voting on recorded or live output or both, and why is that not made clear? why do they send a list of CDs out when people are nominating performers - some of whom many not have put a CD out this year?

they should spend less money paying celebs to hand out the gongs and put a bit more effort into making the awards worthy and sensible in the first place

the whole thing is a mess

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 07:04 AM

1. AS GCB said

2. I've only ever heard one Martin that sounded good - they may be good value in the US, but in the UK they don't pack huge bangs for your, err pound, this is not just my opinion, I know other people who feel the same way. There are plenty of other good guitars around, especially hand made ones. You want a good guitar, how fat is your wallet and soon do you want it? For £10k, you'll get a Sobell Martin Simpson signature, but you'll be a year older before you get it. For £1500 to £3000 you can get a hand made guitar in the UK which will be:-

a) unique
b) better than most production Martins. Now if you have a fat wallet and a big reputation, no doubt Martin will supply you with something special - I'd sooner have something unique.

BTW, don't go looking for a Louden guitar, they don't exist. But should you find a Lowden guitar, there was a period when they were considered not very good at all, but just about every Lowden I have heard is superior to a Martin.

3. From the point of a listener, whether or not is trad or not may not be important, but then again, you may not be bothered about the type of cheese you eat in your sandwiches. For an artist/composer, you will not get royalties on a trad song because you do not own the rights to it, just your arrangement. For a contemporary song you get all the rights unless you sell them to Michael Jackson. Now the issues of revenue earning potential are very important to folk musicians. There is nothing like the amount of money sloshing around in folk music as there is in popular music and many, if not most, professional folk musicians in the UK struggle to make a living. One of the most respected melodeon players in the country has said that he could earn more money as a postman.

Put yourself in the position of Kris Drever, Salsa Celtica, Tim van Eyken or the fifth placed nomination for the best trad song. You might be mightily pissed of if Seth won because you could lose out on sales of CDs, but I suppose that doesn't matter does it?

And on the subject of CD sales, I suppose we should buy from Amazon where, because of discounts, the artist earns 50p at best from an album. If you buy direct from the artist (either web site or at a concert) the artist will get considerably more by having no middle-man. What do we want? Lots of money wearing a hole in our pockets and filthy rich multi-nationals or folk artists who don't need to make a decent living by flogging their guts around the motorways of Britain? Don't forget, we lost one of the best guitar/fiddle/singers in the business when he ran into a lorry, exhausted after doing yet another gig miles from home and not being able to afford accommodation. Is this what we really want? Quality costs and we need to wake up and pay for it.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Scrump
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 07:21 AM

It's a point of principle about Seth's song being nominated as 'traditional'. It has been pointed out that the song is not trad (and Seth himself agrees). So why hasn't it been removed from the nominations? That's all we want to know - this is the issue.

If the BBC / Smooth Ops refuse to answer this question, they imply that any song could be accepted (whether written 500 years ago or this year) as 'traditional'.

(Whether the song is 'good', enjoyable to listen to, etc., is another question, and entirely subjective, so doesn't help resolve the above issue.)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,working musician
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 07:46 AM

It's always entertaining (in the sense that an attack of shingles is entertaining) when someone like Tim the Twanker arrives on a previously thoughtful and well-argued thread, proceeds to deliver a stream of posts that are incoherent, that fail to address existing arguments, that accuse people of saying things they hadn't, and that demand clarification of points already clarified at length, before wrapping the whole thing up in phoney class-war bullshit (as if this trumped all other opinions), and then tells everyone else they're wasting time that could have better spent on more worthwhile actions. Surreal.

Some of us are getting het up because (a) we care about traditional music, and object to our (supposed) flagship media outlet make a mockery of accepted definitions, and (b) we care about the accuracy and openness of the BBC, which is a much bigger issue. I know some of the musicians posting on this thread, and they are neither middle-class do-gooders nor disgruntled wannabe award winners.

As to the guitar, I suggest you try Argos.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,ChorleyBob
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 09:25 AM

Flawed argument, working musician.
I also care about the tradition and the music but I think some peopel are in danger of getting themselves steamed up over a technicality. Just because Twanging Tim disagrees with some of the posters shouldn't debar him from having his two pennorth.
And b) in terms of accuracy and openness at the BBC - I've never heard anything so pompous. Perhaps the DG should resign!
The greater truth is a handful of embittered performers who're outside the tent pissing in, when they'd sooner be inside the tent, are stirring up as much trouble as they can to try and discredit the awards.
I'd love to be inside the tent but I've got enough self-awareness to know I wouldn't come within a mile of getting an award. It doesn't mean I'm any worse than those in the inner snactum....I'm just not award material. GET OVER IT.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 09:45 AM

Sounds like you got a touch of the old high blood pressure there matey.
Is another thread that some of you start because you think you know best about what folk music is and enjoy the chance to tell the rest of us how clever and commited you are.
It must really burn you up that some of the real movers and shakers in the communications industry dont bother listening to you .
Still Fretting about it will keep you warm over christmas so maybe it will save on the yule tide logs etc.
When one comes across a thread like this one can practically hear the cobwebs forming.
I am so sorry that as a mere listener to your precious and oh so wonderful music I do not understand the real and special meaning of it all and am so gratfull that you are there to tell what to think.
How would the world ever manage with out you .
Define it how you like if no one can be interested in listening to your music then there is no point to it.
It happens to all things in the goodness of time they become obsolete
is just natures way of making room for the new the vital and the interesting. It is not personel.
Oh and terribly sorry for not sticking to the arguements aproved and passed as fit to use By some w*nking musician who only appears as a guest.
Have anice day
Tim

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 10:31 AM

..So the BBC has become as shit as its braindead commercial competitors..

BBC programme & scheduling management are arrogant conceited self-centred wankers
with total disregard & contempt for the BBC's veiwing & listening public

sad..

..but far worse is happening out here in the world of dead-end jobs/unemployment and survival !!!!


so f@ck 'em !!! consume less mainstream media culture..

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 10:38 AM

Flawed argument, working musician.
I also care about the tradition and the music but I think some peopel are in danger of getting themselves steamed up over a technicality

So we don't care then about the correct attribution of authorship or arrangements? Along with other performers, I'll remember to tell the PRS to shove it next time I'm asked to fill in a form when either doing a gig or recording.

How can you care about the tradition and yet think the "technicality" of its attribution is unimportant? The converse must also be true, let's not worry about acknowledging original work either. Its obvious that Smooth Ops and the Beeb feel the same way.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 10:38 AM

Tim,

I think almost everybody on this thread agrees that the song in question is not traditional and this includee Seth, who wrote it. Argument resolved?

Their is a continuum in folk clubs, at festivals and in recordings of songs written a few days ago by someone who is known and dozens of variants of some ballads that can be traced back 400 years without finding out who wrote any of it. Many songs exist somewhere in between.

The main difference between the thing we call "folk" ie the clubs, festivals and recordings and the commercial world of popular music is that folk is mostly made possible by people who run clubs and / or sing in them for nothing other than the pleasure they gain in keeping alive a strange collection of music.

We don't mind if you don't care. We object to Smooth Opps doing something or other in secret and confusing our general conviction that this music belongs to us all. We enjoy the Award winners, but they are only a small part of the dog and we what the contest for the curliest tail to be fair.

If you carry on abusing us all you are a troll, figure that out if you can.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 11:23 AM

well mate disagreeing isnt abusing.
but calling names is.
I have no interest in being told what is or isnt Trad by anyone.
It is aspurious arguement put forward by those who wish to make a little bit of turf for themselves ,somewhere were they are king.
Any one who disagrees is to be slated.
Having said that I have no arguement with anyone who wants to hear or perform the music that we all claim to love and admire.
I therefore will leave you to it in the hopes that you will all get some enjoyment and satisfaction from your own company.
Cheers

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 11:40 AM

I have just posted on the BBC site

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F2142825?thread=3737319

asking as we relentlessly do. I guess it is up to each to decide if we have hit a brick wall or a crumbling something or other

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 11:46 AM

Chorleybob, I'm not a performer. Neither is anyone else I know who has contributed to this thread. I have no axe to grind.

We do care about traditional music, though, and care about the value of the folk awards. While the number of artists who benefit will always remain small, I'd like to at least believe that the musicians "inside the tent" have arrived there fairly. At the moment, it feels a bit like a closed shop. Seth Lakeman's nomination has deprived someone else (who presumably performed an eligible song) of a nomination. I don't know or care who they are. I'd like to see them on the list.

I reiterate that the term "folk" has come to mean so many things to so many people. The "traditional track" award is one tiny corner of the folk industry that acknowledges the more traditional end of the market, and in fact of the culture. To have a song nominated for the award which isn't traditional undermines even that little bit of acknowledgement. That's why it's important.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards- Open and clear
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 11:54 AM

Well put Ruth!

It is the people who run clubs and festivals and who sing at them that make Smooth Opps possible not the other way round.