Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene

Subject: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 03:25 AM

Always wondered about that. What do mudcatters think?

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Paul Burke
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 03:34 AM

Is folk part of the Trad Jazz scene?

Since folk hasn't got strict boundaries (see other threads ad desperandum), the odd trad set would probably be acceptable in certain types of session/performance.

Is klezmer part of the folk scene? Performance styles very much influenced by the American recording period 1910ish-1929ish being slap alongside the popularisation of trad jazz.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 04:22 AM

A lot of trad jazz standards were well in evidence at the dawn of the folk clubs. but you'd go quite a long way nowadays before hearing St James infirmary. The suppression of Americana in English folk clubs, has also led to the suppression of this uniquely English or at any rate uniquely European perspective on jazz that was at one time feeding into our folk music.

When what were regarded in America as trad jazz people (like Eddie Condon) came to tour England in the 1950's - they were astonished to find young English people writing and performing songs in a style that harkened back to 1920 and King Oliver and even before.

Some of this is down to the fact that there were very few black people living in England in the 1940's and 50's. if you listen to George Melly's reminisences of the time, his views of black people are rather like Baudelaire's a hundred years earlier - they are exotic creatures and their music tells of a sexually liberated and hopefully depraved existence - not available in 1950's Britain. A view hard to sustain in a more integrated community.

Interesting question........

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 04:44 AM

The short answer is probably "no", but I'm glad you raised the question anyway, because I happen to like trad jazz, and there are similarities in the way both types of music are viewed by the general public (minority tastes, virtually ignored by the media, etc.); and a certain amount of overlap too, in the material (e.g. many trad jazz adaptations of folk songs). Yet both types of music have a relatively small but thriving fan base (AFAIK, I'm a bit out of touch with the trad jazz 'scene' these days).

I've been to a few outdoor trad jazz events in the summer and had as good a time as I've had at many a folk festival.

But I doubt trad jazz would be accepted in your average folk club, or I daresay vice versa.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: GUEST,Alexis (hopefully cookied)
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 04:50 AM

Isn't it more fundamental in that, it's not the tunes or songs, but the fact that the structure is so different - improvisation for example.
Alex

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 04:50 AM

Some songs and tunes by unknowns, passed by the oral tradition, close relationship between musicians and audience?

I saw Mr Green's Punch and Judy, from Blackpool sands, at the Grove in Leeds once ????????????

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 05:03 AM

One of the reasons I ask, is because I enjoy Trad Jazz very much. I happen to think that they have a place in the Festivals and wonder why that doesn't happen.
Secondly, I have had several people who come to my folk club who have asked me if I can get a trad jazz band along one time.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 05:06 AM

Also interesting that the early MacColl records featured jazz players like Bruce Turner. And of course if you followed the career of trad jazz banjo player Lonnie Donegan you learned a hell of a lot of folksongs.

It would be interesting to know at precisely what point it started, this disdain for and rejection of this kind of music - that in 1961 or thereabouts seemed like an integral part of the English scene.

I don't think the rejection and disdain was totally from the folk world - see the attitude of the rocker character Jim Maclain towards jazz in the That'll be the day film. It is hinted that jazz is middle class - joe college stuff. Also this was a theme in John Mortimer's Leslie Titmuss plays. Apparently The Cavern was a trad jazz club just prior to The Beatles coming on the scene.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 05:07 AM

First define folk music ...

In my humble opinion I regard jazz, particularly trad, as part of folk music. In view of it's history what else can it be? It's probably more folk music than a lot of the popular contemporary stuff being done at the moment.

Rhiannon

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 05:08 AM

You think the Chieftains and Martin Carthy don't improvise......

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 05:14 AM

I suspect that any "disdain" came from the jazz fans. Jazz (at least the older forms of it) is far more welcome in folk clubs than folk music is to the average (rather snobbish, in my experience) jazz audience.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Paul Burke
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 05:15 AM

What put me off trad jazz was all the dressing up, the waistcoats and bowlers and stripy shirts. And a certain amount of implied racism among the afficionados back in the 70s. It may have started as black music, but I never saw any faces other than pinko-grey in the audience. Perhaps that was a local thing (Coventry then).

As for there being fewer Black people in 1950s Britain, true- but I think irrelevant. There's nothing that says Black people have to relate to jazz- it's an American tradition, and Black British are from West Indian and (mostly West) African backgrounds. In particular, the West Indian connections are well reflected in the development of British music- Calypso, Reggae, Ska etc have all had their place in the rain.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 05:15 AM

Villan, if there's enough interest (and you need to be fairly sure of this first) in having a trad jazz evening at your club, why not go for it. You can publicise it in advance to make sure no disappointed jazz-hating folkies will turn up. It's sometimes fun to have a 'non-folk' evening once in a while (e.g. bluegrass, country or rockabilly, etc.), and the regulars will often enjoy an occasional change from the 'standard' folk stuff. It would be better (IMO) to have a whole themed evening rather than try to combine it with folk - but some may disagree (I'm sure we'll soon find out...)

As for the demise of trad jazz, yes, the Beatles and the 'beat boom' of the early/mid sixties made it suddenly seem 'old hat' with teenagers in particular - the likes of Acker Bilk and Kenny Ball who had enjoyed huge chart success in the late 50s/ early 60s were suddenly nowhere, chart-wise (from about 1964 onwards). But they had the last laugh - they're still going, and where are the Beatles now? :-)

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 05:46 AM

No what I was saying was that middle class young college kids read about the sporting houses in New Orleans - Mr Jelly Roll and all that, and having no experience of black people - they got a romanticised view of them, through the lyrics and literature of trad jazz.

I think that was the romantic view of the music. maybe I'm wrong - it was slightly before my time as an adult.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 05:48 AM

>>It's probably more folk music than a lot of the popular contemporary stuff being done at the moment<<

My thought as well Rhiannon.

My favourite trad Jazz Bands were Chris Barber, Terry Lightfoot, Ken Collyer.

I found this website of what I think is a great Trad Jazz Band that play in Suffolk and wouldn't mind booking them. See what you think, they have some MP3 snippets on their website. I have already talked with them.

Red Beans 'n' Rice

I am also going to go to the Louth Jazz Club and see what their band is like.

One of the difficulties is the cost of the band and the price you would have to charge per person.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 06:08 AM

Interesting Les! Tell us what you decide and find out.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 06:10 AM

NO! any more than steam engines or canal boats.
But it is a happy fact that those of us who enjoy good folk music (whatever that is, please define for yourself)also have a leaning towards if not a passion for those other interests.
The Sidmouth Syncopaters always drew a good crowd at there only two venues Sidmouth and Chippenham festivals. The audience always included many "proper folkies" myself included.

Andy

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 06:16 AM

Andy , shame on you ,check spelling first!! But since I'm back....Have you ever seen an unaccompanied folk singer do a spot in the middle of a trad jazz club evening? Much as I enjoy many different musics I strongly believe they should be kept well seperate for fear of a purple plasticine splodge of sound alikes. As for a jazz night at your folk club, why not organise a club trip to a good Trad Jazz Club instead?
I'll go away now!

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: IanC
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 06:16 AM

Er ... Alexis ... which of the traditions doesn't have improvisation?

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 06:23 AM

Slightly off the topic, but related: has anyone noticed the demise of the banjo player in trad jazz bands? The ones I've seen in recent years seem to have dispensed with them - maybe it's a question of costs, because a 7 piece band is obviously not going to be cheap to book.

But I used to like the sound of the banjo in trad jazz, and it's a shame it's gone, IMO. Does anyone know the reason? (Please spare me the banjo-haters' "jokes" though!)

Don't forget Lonnie Donegan wass a banjo player in Chris Barber's band - he went on to become quite an influence on folk music in the UK (like it or not).

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 06:44 AM

Yes I saw Bob Davernport do an unaccompanied song at a jazz evening. And Roy Harris. Both of them went down well.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 06:55 AM

I like jazz.I would like to remind people that the Ballydehob jazz festival, OCCURS MAY7 2007.
In traditional irish, scots, english music, melodic improvisation or ornamentation takes place, although the tunes stick closer to the melody, than in jazz,.it is essentially dance music, as is trad jazz

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: BanjoRay
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 07:20 AM

It was the sound of the banjo in a jazz band that got me started trying to play one a year or two back (1961), and I suppose the Old Time string band music I play now has a lot in common with New Orleans jazz. There's not as much improvisation, but the swing is very similar. Old Time is definitely part of the folk scene in the US, but I get the impression it's barely tolerated over here in the UK.
As for jazz in folk clubs, I agree it's very difficult to mix the styles on the same evening, it would be like combining Indian and Chinese food in the same meal -seperately delicious but an indigestible mix.
Ray

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Ernest
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 07:55 AM

I do like trad jazz as well but I don`t think that there is much of a common "scene" in the sense that musicians and fans in a sufficient number mingle with the other style very much. Each is constituting its own scene, so to say.
Skiffle seems to be something like the "missing link" here and now.
Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 08:37 AM

Part of "the Folk Scene" - not as much as it should be.   But of course Trad Jazz is a folk music. What else could it be?

I suspect a proper trad band is a lot more likely to be warmly received in a folk event these days than in most Jazz events.

It's a music that is overdue for a revival. The problem is it requires a lot of instrumental skill at entry level. With folk or rock you can start with a voice, and then maybe a couple of chords and work your way in. With trad jazz you've got to have a whole bag of tricks before you can even start.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 08:52 AM

The Red Beans n Rice Trad Band do have somebody playing the Tenor Banjo and that reminds me a lot of Lonnie Doengan. A trad band to me has to have a banjo player in it.

I wouldn't put a Jazz band on with the normal folk evening, but as a seperate event.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 09:01 AM

All the trad bands of the golden era (for that music) of the 1950s and early 1960s had a banjoist, even the star bands of Acker Bilk and Kenny Ball (yes, I know they are sometimes scoffed at as 'commercial' by trad purists, probably because they had more success than the rest, but they were, and IMO still are, very good). I can only assume that on cost grounds the banjoist was the first to go (as perhaps more dispensible than the trumpet, clarinet, trombone, drums, piano and bass) unless anyone knows different? Although primarily a rhythm instrument, you used to get some good solos now and again, and I certainly find there's something missing from the sound without the banjo in the band.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 09:07 AM

I know people who play in both the folk world and the trad jazz scene. What tends to be the case is that people use different styles and techniques for playing within a particular genre, possibly a different instrument (Guitar for folk scene, trumpet for New Orleans Marching Band).
Whilst a different musical scene might be welcomed as something different on an occasion, I thing you would get complaints if a jazz band turned up EVERY week.

I used to live in Bradford, which was a great place as you could find all sorts of music played live in pubs. Trad jazz, rock, folk (listening), folk (sessions), rhythm & blues, bhangra, you-name-it. Often you would see the same faces there, the folkies at the jazz gig, the rock band guitarist in the folk session, the bhangra singer out with the carol singers.
I don't think that keeping stuff separate is a bad thing. You can choose what to go to see.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Dazbo
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 09:55 AM

No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No.

Jazz (of all types) should be consigned to the dustbin of "Emperor's New Clothes"

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 10:20 AM

dazbo, thats almost as bad as B Rileys kinetic art.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 11:07 AM

Did I detect a definate No from Dazbo :-)

I guess Dazbo won't come to my club then LOL

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 11:27 AM

No, nay ,never

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 11:32 AM

Thats good then :-)

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Alexis
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 12:36 PM

I think the answer must be no.However if you booked a jazz band for a folk festival and didn't tell people what genre.........
Going back to improvisation, you are no doubt right Ian in that most music would have a degree of it whether because of forgotton notes, or similar. When I used to play trad, the improvised solo was fundamental. If you could n't improvise - you couldn't play jazz. None of the folky stuff I play nowadays (sessions or morris or ceilidhs) has improvisation as the basis of the music.
In order for trad jazz to be part ofthe scene, the labels have gotto come off.
Alex

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Bert
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 12:42 PM

What McGrath Says. Not as much as it should be.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Scoville
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 12:49 PM

What do you mean by Trad Jazz? 1920's-style? Then, yes, very much so, at least in the United States. Tremendous overlap between 1920's jazz styles and old-time string-band music, jug-band, and some Cajun. Jug-band was conspicuously part of the folk revival over here. Real string-band and Cajun revivals were a bit later, but the string-band/jazz overlap has been in place for a long time.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 01:00 PM

I seem to remember reading that Alan Lomax both discovered, and wrote a biography of, a famous Jazzman. I think that it was Jelly Roll Morton - but could be wrong.

In my home town, in the late 50s/early 60s, it was the Jazz fans who started the first Folk Club. They, obviously, enjoyed both types of music but, in their wisdom, decided to keep the separate - a decision that I agree with.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: fat B****rd
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 02:44 PM

F**K second thoughts. Keep 'em separate enjoy one or both. (Or none, if you like)

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 02:58 PM

I wonder if there's a website somewhere where there are people arguing about "What is Jazz?", and a section of them hotly denying that Trad Jazz really counts as Jazz? On account of a presumption about how an essential element of Jazz is that innovation must always be in the driving seat, whereas, in Trad, innovation is a bit suspect. "That stuff isn't Jazz" they'd protest - "It's folk music."

With us it's the other way round - innovation is tolerated rather than idolised. (See this thread for example).

It seems to me that the situation is best represented by one of those Venn diagrams, with circles intersecting each other. Folk music, in all its varieties, is one circle, and Jazz, in all its varieties, is another circle, and where they overlap you find Trad Jazz.
.........................
"What do you mean by Trad Jazz? 1920's-style?"

Yes - and pre 1920s.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 03:22 PM

For the Americans, (who maybe thought, wrongly, of course, that jazz was traditional American music), "Trad Jazz" is the name that them in the UK use for what we called "Dixieland".

You UK'ers have no idea how peculiar this discussion seems to Americans--

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 04:05 PM

well m ted. dixieland is one thing to us, new orleans is another but they are both trad.dixieland is personified by the ORIGINAL DIXIELAND JAZZ BAND,New Orleans BY King Oliver,BuddyBolden, early loius armstrong. the emphasis in 4/4is on a different beat of the bar.
I quote the jazz book byJoachim e Berendt . IN NEW ORLEANS the rhythmic emphasisis on beats 1 and 3.
Dixieland and chicago style as well as new orleans jazz as played in in Chicago, in the twenties shifts the accent to 2 and 4.
both New ORLEANS AND DIXIEland rhythms are two beat rhythmsin so far as the bass drum is assigned two beats per measure.
however;;;;;;; Louis armstrong- requested Baby Dodds toplay an even four beats.
the ODJB had very few solos, relying on ensemble work.loius Armstrong and king oliver and kid ory had much more solo work.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 04:06 PM

Ah, but there's them as would use the term "Dixieland" as referring to a slightly debased variant on the true New Orleans holy writ.

These people can get very intensively sectarian. Which just goes to demonstrate that it must be folk music...

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 04:47 PM

"Dixieland" was a ubiquitous club music popular during the 50's and 60's--Pete Fountain/Al Hirt sort of music, derived from and imitative of older forms of jazz, but with overriding ideosyncratic elements of it's own--

While brilliant musicians like Lenny Tristano and John Coltrane poured out their hearts and souls, in small, dark, bars, the great unwashed flocked to hear clarinets and trombones slithering inexorably through everything from "When the Saints Go Marching In" to "Mame" at places like "Shakey's Pizza"--

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 04:55 PM

Im in Ireland not the u.k.
Dixieland was originally pinkie white JAZZ.
new orleans black, brown, or creole.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 04:58 PM

I am really enjoying this thread. Very interesting indeed. Lots of brilliant debating.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: shepherdlass
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 05:12 PM

Fascinating stuff. Is Trad part of the folk scene? Don't know if it is now, but it surely helped kickstart the "second revival" in Britain.

Malcolm - I've come across snobberies on both sides of the fence (it's certainly not just the jazzers who put up barriers, as Dazbo demonstrated). I've also heard fantastic blends of folk and jazz - though more recently they've featured modern rather than Trad jazz. The Unusual Suspects and La Bottine Souriante spring to mind, and does anyone remember the jazz-folk supergroup Lammas? On the traddier side, there was that Martin Carthy/Diz Dizley collaboration in the 60s. And so many people on the folk scene have used trad. standards like "Nobody Knows You When You're Drownin' Trout" or "Pasadena" as suitably rowdy set-closers, there are arguments that the crossover of genres has always been there in part.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 05:23 PM

>>I've also heard fantastic blends of folk and jazz - though more recently they've featured modern rather than Trad jazz<<

Good point Sheperdlass

A band that springs to mind is the Miranda Sykes Band who are brilliant, but I tend to class them as Folk Modern Jazz (Hope you agree Miranda).

So if you can have Folk Modern Jazz, you can have Folk Trad Jazz which is more up my street.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Margret RoadKnight
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 07:34 PM

The (apparently) longest running 7-nights-a-week folk club in the world was TRAYNORS in Melbourne, Australia, named after the trombonist leader of Frank Traynor's Jazz Preachers.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 07:38 PM

Thanks M. Ted. I've been reading this thread and trying to figure out what "trad jazz" was. So is it Dixieland your talking about, like this? [though there's no banjo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egxqCZ6W-DQ

Tiger Rag-The Original Dixieland Jazz Band

"The Original Dixieland Jazz Band was the first (white) jazz band to record in 1917. The band stayed together for years and their last recording was done in 1936.
The band members went for different careers. However some record producer tried to get the band together again some 10 years later.
Therefore I assume that this clip was produced in the mid forties after trumpet player Nick La Rocca organized and found the original band members for this event".

Added to [YouTube] September 05, 2006 ; From boberwig

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 11:06 PM

The overlap between American old time music and traditional jazz is huge. In Venn diagrams, the overlap of A with B has lots of stuff in it. Clayton MacMichen of the Skillet Lickers thought of jazz as his "serious" music and couldn't understand why people kept buying those Skillet Licker sides. He wanted to be remembered for his "serious" music. . . sort of like Sir Arthur Sullivan wanting to be remembered for "serious" compositions and not that fluff with Gilbert.
   The complete recordings of Lowe Stokes (also of the Skillet Lickers) are about half jazz and Broadway hits (Take Me To the Land of Jazz, Left All Alone Again Blues, Everybody's Doing It) and half traditional tunes like "Katy Did" and "Take Me Back to Georgia" and Sally Johnson".
   Homer and Jethro did a wonderful album "Playing it Straight" where they demonstrated what great musicians they were (just in case somebody couldn't tell amid the comedy)
   and one of my favorite recordings is that of the Six and Seven-Eighths String Band of New Orleans, who worked out a way of doing Dixieland on stringed instruments: slide guitar as trombone, mandolin as clarinet, guitar and bass. It's wonderful.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: GUEST,Scoville at Dad's
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 11:16 PM

You UK'ers have no idea how peculiar this discussion seems to Americans

Amen, M. Ted. I started reading this and was wondering what the Hell everyone was talking about. I mean, I did, but in the U.S. it's almost beyond asking.

Pete Peterson's right--in the U.S. it's often hard to tell where one ends and the other begins. Was true of revival bands, too. The Red Clay Ramblers pulled it off very well.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 02:06 AM

That album Dave Van Ronk first did Green Green Rocky Road on, also had a trad jazz band.

The reason you Americans find it so difficult to understand why us Brits are so precious about our traditional music, is that we have a style of traditional music that (though adhered to passionately by a middle class minority) totally alienates the general population. As somebody remarked to me in folk club last night, Traditional English music is an acquired taste - and hardly anybody bothers acquiring it.

Our 'traditional' music is generally reckoned to be under threat of disappearing if its adherents look the other way, take their eye off the ball.

Jazz like blues (though it has been quite popular with most English people for quite a while) is thought to be a corrupting influence.

Mention of Lennie Tristano reminded me that I once saw Davy Graham (inventor of DADGAD tuning - can't get more traddie than that) play an instrumental homage he had written himself to this great musician. So not every English folk musician gets the vapours and goes No No No No, at the very thought of jazz invading the holy of holys - English folk music.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 02:30 AM

I think the Brits are just waiting for Martin Carthy to tell tham its alright to put a bit of jazz in there. Actually I always thought that Brass Monkey project of his had a bit of jazzy feel to it.

Loosen up, for God's sake before they enclose us like those 18th century peasants - you all want to sound like.

no no no no...indeed. It's like oh Sir Jasper do not touch me....

I'm sure things never USED to be so uptight. Like I say I've seen Roy Harris and Bob davenport both do unaccompanied stuff at Jazz evenings. In fact I remember John Tams joining Bob on stage to finish off the evening with Chuck Berry's Memphis Tenessee. another gig, he did Bob marley's get Up, Stand Up. Mind you those guys could really sing, none of this forgetting the words , and I don't know where this song came from, and reading the words from folders....

I'm just getting old , I suppose - and I don't like the way the worlds going....no no no no, my arse!

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Dazbo
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 03:57 AM

I don't know why, but jazz is one of the styles of music that leaves me stone cold. It doesn't get my heart beating or my feet tapping just nothing. It's hard enough finding traditional English folk** without being (in my case) inflicted with something akin to watching paint dry whilst waiting for it to come on.

Traditional English folk music, not withstanding its current mini boom, is a rare and fragile flower that needs looking after, not to be swamped by foriegn imports. It's so frustrating, for example, living in the middle of England how few English sessions there are compared to Irish (sessions totally populated by English players and singers).

Folk musicians and audiences seem to be an inclusive lot (which is generally a good thing) but unless this inclusiveness is reciprocated by other genres I think it can be detrimental to folk music. It seems to me that this inclusivity, by for example bringing in trad jazz, is in fact the poorer relation (folk) subsidising the slightly better off relation (trad jazz) - Cambridge "Folk" Festival anyone? If and when Courtney Pine shares the bill with The Dartmoor Pixie Band or Metalica share the bill with Rachel Unthank and the Winterset, I will change my mind. Until then - No.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not some sort of fanatic who only listens to traditional English folk music. Apart from jazz, rap, drum and bass, and barber shop singing I've got quite a wide taste in music: folk music from southern Africa to Finland to North and South America; classical from Byrd to Beethoven, Purcell to Prokofiev; rock and blues from the 50s to the present day.

**Throughout this reply I am using my own definition of this word. Please note it may vary greatly from your own definition.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:07 AM

Oh dear, WLD,

You really have got a 'bee in your bonnet' about about us fans of trad. music, haven't you? What I can't understand is that if our music is as irrelevant and 'alienating' as you say it is, it will soon die out and you won't have to worry any more, will you? All I can say is that if your project succeeds, and trad. music, in a trad. style, is replaced by some sort 'relevant' pop/rock confection that will be the day that I 'jump ship' and start looking for something else! One of the reasons (not the only one) that I like trad. music is because it is refreshingly unlike modern, commercial pop music.   

Actually, I think that, like many people today, you are committed to constant change and think that the past is irrelevant. There was an article in last Sunday's 'Independent' about the British historian and TV pundit, David Starkie. Now, I wouldn't normally agree with a pompous prat like Starkie but, in the course of the interview, he said something interesting about Tony Blair: "I also think that a politician with no sense of history, like Blair, is the equivalent of a mental defective. History is a collective experience and not to share is to suffer from a kind of Alzheimer's. It makes you autistic, unthinking." (I think that the phraseology is somewhat offensive but the point that he is making is very interesting and 'relevant' to our contemporary society).

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:56 AM

Dixieland or Trad Jazz, this is what I mean. Have a listen.

Up Jumped The Devil by Red Beans 'n'Rice

Vic Bevan - cornet; Tidge Riches - clarinet/alto sax; Jeff Rous - trombone; Robin Burgess - sousaphone; John Bright - tenor banjo; Barry Crickmore - drums

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: shepherdlass
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:59 AM

Dazbo, I see your point re Cambridge Folk Festival but I don't think folk is the poor relation of jazz anymore. In Britain, folk outsells jazz by, oh, all of about 0.2%, but that's significant because of the size of markets we're talking about (though oh, how I hate talking about "markets" at all).

Yes, traditional music should be cherished, but a living tradition develops. Living in NE England makes you aware of this: the region's had its fair share of eclectic blending from way back through the centuries - the Northumbrian pipes are probably derived from the French musette; James Hill who wrote so many wonderful Tyneside hornpipes was Scottish; etc, etc. I think the occasional adoption of jazz phrasing or harmony is just part of that process (another North Easterner, Kathryn Tickell, does this a lot of course). It seems to me that the best examples of eclecticism often come from those performers who also excel at more "pure" traditional music.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 06:35 AM

Villan, thanks for posting that music clip of trad jazz.

You wrote "Dixieland or Trad Jazz, this is what I mean. Have a listen."

I guess you're "or" didn't mean one or the other [label] but that either label for that music clip would be appropriate. Is that right?

As to the question "Is trad jazz part of the folk scene", since it's not my trad jazz and not my folk scene, I decline to answer the question.

But I'm learning more as a result of 'listening to' this discussion.

Thanks again Villan for not ignoring my question.

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Dazbo
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 06:45 AM

Shepherdlass,

I agree that a living tradition develops (probably the definition of a living tradition is that it does develop) but I think it has to develop within set boundaries (or a least in a progression of small steps not giant leaps). As long as people listen to more than one sort of music I don't think they can help but be influenced by what they've heard (for example the mixing of African music and western music - keys, tunings etc - merged to create what became rag time, jazz etc). In a sense all the branches of western music are feeding off each other all the time.

To me traditional English music includes stuff written in England by English people or (like the English themselves) has come from abroad and happily set up home here and has fitted in with our ways. I certainly don't demand birth certificates and passports:-)

It has occured to me many times that many of the non-jazz musicians that like and enjoy playing it are excellent musicians in their own fields. It's like they can understand the language of jazz that just passes me by.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 06:45 AM

How about Wilie Johnson the shetland guitarist who during the second world war listened to Eddie lang[jazz guitarist].,on short wave radio, and developed a jazzy style of guitar playing for backing shetland traditonal fiddlers, and more latterly the Easy Club,ALL IN STANDARD TUNING, chordally very interesting, but definitely Jazz orientated.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:05 AM

Azizi
>>Is that right?<< Yes

It is a very interesting thread Azizi.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:13 AM

I guess you're "or" didn't mean one or the other [label] but that either label for that music clip would be appropriate. Is that right?

Azizi, as mentioned above, the term "Dixieland jazz" is often used (perhaps loosely) for what in the UK many people call "trad jazz". I think the latter term (short for "traditional" - aargh!) was used in the 1950s onwards (or possibly even earlier? someone will know) to distinguish it from "modern" jazz (I leave it to others to define that!)

If you accept that "Dixieland" is more or less interchangeable with "trad" then the answer to your question is "yes". However the Cap'n and others have distinguished between "Dixieland" and "New Orleans" jazz, so it might depend on whether all "trad" jazz can be strictly called "Dixieland" - possibly not, but many people do use the terms as interchangeable, rightly or wrongly.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:16 AM

Villan, thanks.

And yes the conversation is interesting *, and it's more understandable to me now that I have a sense of what type of jazz music people are referring to.

* For me this is interesting in that it provides another opportunity to learn more about other folks' cultures, which is why I'm going to lurk from now on.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:23 AM

Scrump, thanks also for that further clarification which I admit I'll have to read more than once to fully understand {or at least understand more}.

And thanks to all others who are participating or will participate in this discussion
[this last thanks is given so I can lurk in comfort without appearing to be rude because I've not acknowledged those who might respond to my previous question about traditional music=dixieland jazz]

-Azizi,
who likes to think of these Internet discussions as conversations that occur at some type of face to face social setting, and therefore that the same rules of etiquette that apply to direct conversations should be followed online.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Scoville
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 09:16 AM

What, you don't think American old-time alienates the general population? I mean the real stuff, not Old Crow Medicine Show.

Don't think we don't understand how protective you are about your trad music--we've got the same thing over here (I even know a few people who are quite protective of their English traditional music). There are plenty of American trad musicians who do NOT incorporate jazz in what they play and are meticulous about sticking to the European roots of the repertoires, although the roots may not always be English (might be Irish, might be Danish, might be German; there is regional variation). They are also meticulous about sticking with the stylistic conventions of what they play and how they play it. That doesn't mean that they can't do anything else, as you've noted, only that they know how to keep one separate from the rest. We don't all just lump all our musical influences together indiscriminately.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 09:30 AM

I don't really see why club organisers have to be blinkered in what they put on. A wide umbrella gives the oportunity to provide more variety and get more listeners in.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 09:46 AM

"....What put me off trad jazz was all the dressing up, the waistcoats and bowlers and stripy shirts....." (Paul burke, way up near the top)

err.. ummm .. not into morris then, or mumming? ;)

GREAT thread btw guys - real Mudcat debate. Put me down for Viaain's team - the wider the Church the sweeter the music ..

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 09:47 AM

Sorry, should have said "Villan" there

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 10:12 AM

from the point of view making clubs more successful, the occassional
trad jazz night might be a good idea, bringing new people to the club, if people know in advance, all those who dont like can stay away ,but i suspect it wiill be a minority . DickMiles

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 10:21 AM

What the Cap'n said is in line with what I said earlier, so I agree Cap'n.

I don't really see why club organisers have to be blinkered in what they put on. A wide umbrella gives the oportunity to provide more variety and get more listeners in

Well said Villan. Agreed again.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: GLoux
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 10:26 AM

Just last month, the Lansdowne Folk Club in Pennsylvania featured Beau Django in concert, which is a quartet going after the Django Reinhardt/Stephane Grappelli type of jazz. Whether it is "Trad Jazz" or not is a different discussion, but it was very well received and appropriate.

http://www.beaudjango.com

This Folk Club does a great job of mixing up the types of music they present throughout the year...the venue that the club uses is about one mile from where the great jazz guitar player Eddie Lang is buried.

-Greg

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 11:06 AM

Very appropriate, Greg--as you probably know, Django and Grappelli were heavily influenced by the recordings of Joe Venuti and Eddie Lang. And, by the way, there was a story floating around that someone picked up an old archtop guitar at a Philly area yard sale a few years back, and, at home, while taking a closer look, discovered the name "Sal Massaro" was inscribed in the case(Eddie's real name)--

Philly was the home of a lot of great jazz musicians-and a lot of jazz guitarists--

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 11:18 AM

I think when people say they don't like Jazz as such they are most likely to be thinking of later varieties, the kinds that are revered by people who, more often than not, despise early Jazz.

Terminology becomes a problem - for example "Modern Jazz" for music that is over fifty years old.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 12:05 PM

Good point McGrath of Harlow - but I think people understand at least vaguely what is the the difference between 'trad' and 'modern' jazz.

Fer Gawd's sake let's not get into a debate about what these two terms mean though (cf 'traditional' folk, etc.) :-)

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 12:11 PM

Well I can't see why an English writer shouldn't use jazz, Indian music, American , or Icelandic music, or Russian music, and instrumentation - if he thinks it helps talk about what its like living in England today, or even talks about living in England 300 years ago - and as far as Im concerned it will be English folk music.

Do you think guitars , pianos, synthesizers, concertinas, bagpipes - all sprang from English soil, in some mystical way? No, at some point an artist got in there made a synthesis of what was available and created.

You should be tolerant, and (though its asking too much of some buggers) intelligent of creativity.

And yes I can understand why a pompous dickhead like Starkey might have found one or two emotional soulmates. he makes Blair sound human. That guy really talks as though he shits marble - his metaphor of Thomas Cromwell being a bit like someone who had studied modern American business methods struck me as breathtaking in its sheer awfulness.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 01:21 PM

To the point of the thread--Blind Blake style guitar rags, jug band music, and Travis-picking, and the like have always been an integral part of the the American folk scene, and that stuff is all jazz--

Also, the legendary folk scenes, at least in SF and NYC tended to cohabitate with the jazz scenes, though those were progressive jazz scenes, not traditional--it certainly wasn't uncommon to see John Coltrane LP's next to Mississippi John Hurt on those cinderblock record shelves that we all had--

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 04:02 PM

its debatable whether Blind blake rags and travis picking are jazz , it depends whether the performer is improvising.
however there are jazz influences[ which is not quite the same thing] and the performers may be using jazz chords.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:34 PM

Rags such as Scott Joplin's Maple Leaf Rag have been performed both by 'trad jazz' bands and 'folk' guitarists of the Ralph McTell / John James / Stefan Grossman type - as such they provide an example that seems to be common to both types of music.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:38 PM

Aha So Trad Jazz is part of Folk -Well done Scrump.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:49 PM

Travis certainly thought that he was playing jazz, and Blind Blake certainly did. It seems a bit silly to say that piece is jazz when one guy plays it, and isn't when another guy plays it. It certainly leans toward the of the narrowness of mind that WLD talks about--

Improvisation doesn't make something jazz or not jazz--Jazz certainly has improvisation, but jazz arrangers have been writing tight arrangements since the twenties--even still, there can be a lot of improvisation in even a "note-for-note" rendition.

And "improvisation" is, in a lot of ways, illusory--Ellington, who is regarded as one of the great improvisers, was known to say something to the effect that there was a lot less improvisation to his music than people thought.   And beyond that, in it's less brilliant incarnations(which, to be brutally honest, is most of it) jazz improvisation tends to be a collection of predictably reworked stock phrases--the term "simulated improvisation" has been used--

As to the concept of "jazz chords"--there are no jazz chords--just chords, and jazz can be played with simple ones or messy ones--and there is a school of thought in jazz that says you can play any tune with just two chords. The secret is in knowing which two;-)

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:58 PM

Someone (and I can't find it, so I can't say who), said something like, "You won't hear 'The Saints Go Marching In' in folk clubs very often."

Forty-three years ago, my Beautiful Wife and I spent our honeymoon in New Orleans, and of course we attended Preservation Hall to listen to one of the local bands. Audience members were permitted (nay, encouraged) to shout out requests. But there was a sign behind the band, with a listing of appropriate contribution rates for different kinds of requests:

Traditional jazz tunes,          $2.00
Non-traditional jazz tunes,   $5.00
The Saints...........................$50.00

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Dazbo
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 05:07 AM

"the wider the Church the sweeter the music" quoted from Doktor Doktor above gave me a right laugh: the image of the bride's face as she walked down the aisle to the Death March LOL

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 06:23 AM

there is no such thing as jazz chords[ what a load of cobblers].they are chords with added notes, often 9ths, sixths, 13, major sevenths , flatted fifths ,11ths so on.
they are sometimes suitable for traditional music and sometimes not.
which is why guitarists like carthy opt for modal chords and the doubling of notes 1 and 5 of the chord[ it gives a dulcimerish effect]. Carthy may also sometimes play added notes, but when he does they are often added to a modal chord.[one with the the third note removed]this is less common in jazz and more difficult to achieve in standard tuning which is what most jazzers and ragtime players [blind blake, Dave van Ronk[[occasionally drop d]]use.
again Ishall quote from the jazz book[ THE DECORATIVE,EMBELLISHING PARAPHRASE WAS THE MAIN IMPROVISATIONORY DEVICE OF THE OLDER JAZZ FORMS. clarinettist Buster Bailey relates at that time[1918]i wouldnt have known what they meant by improvisation.But embellishment was aphrase i understoodand that was what they were doing in New Orleans.
I quote page 152[ AND part contribution from HUMPHREY LITTLETON.
1.the once improvised is equal to improvisation.
2 the once improvised can be reproduced by the one who produced it , but by no one else.
3 Both improvisation and the once improvised are personal expressions of the situation of the musician who produced them .
4.the concurrence of improviser, composer and interpreter belongs to jazz improvisation.
5, In so far as the arranger corresponds to part4 his function differs from that of the improvising composing interpreter merely in terms of craftsmanship and technique; the arranger writes,even when writing for others, on the basis of his experience as an improvising composing interpreter.
6Improvisation- in the sense of points 1 to5- is indispensable to Jazz;improvisation in the sense of complete spontaneity may occur, but is not a necessity.[ from j e berendt TheJazzBook.] Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 06:31 AM

so you could argue that , Tom Cloughs northumbrian pipe variations were jazz[ CETRAINLY when played byT.CLOUGH], AS I INTERPRET IT POINT 6 means if Kathryn Tickell played CLOUGHS variations, its not jazz, but if she played her own it is.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 01:06 PM

Those are just chords, Buddy--used in jazz on ocassion, certainly, but they don't come from jazz, and they don't define jazz--all the complex harmonic mechanisms were developed and used in composed music first. And, as has been pointed out, a lot of people only like the kinds of jazz that don't use them.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 02:10 PM

used in jazz fequently -buddy. and generally known as jazz chords, and jazz can be composed music, read the six points,and the composed music they were used in first was jazz.
in fact many members of the classical estasblishment,classical/musicians/ critics/ of the 1900s to 19 20s dismissed jazz as a discordant cacophony.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: GUEST,squeezeboxhp
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 03:51 PM

jazz clubs were where the first folk clubs got an airing.
take it or leave it because music is music like the chocolates.
all music is good but some people like some better than others and some can live with a mixture on the same night as in trad versus modern jazz or where does the line be drawn between this and pop

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 04:21 PM

No, they weren't. As to "The Six Points", good, but significantly arguable points-the Jazz Book, or whatever, is not really the final source on jazz performance --and Humphrey Lytteton is not regarded, here, anyway, as a defining performer in jazz--

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 06:29 PM

I'm late to the thread but....

"In my humble opinion I regard jazz, particularly trad, as part of folk music. "

*deep sigh*...You can't just 'regard' something like that and make it so. There is a REASON why there are different names. And, there are festivals especially for jazz.
I like jazz...a lot. I listen to it often, but just because a few jazz musicians have used some folk melodies to improvise on, that doesn't lump the categories together. They are WAY different approaches to music. The word 'trad' (traditional) can be applied to almost any music. I'm sure those who like Punk Rock could point you to 'trad' versions....

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 07:27 PM

depends on how you see folkmusic. I think Pulp's Common People is one of the best folksongs ever. If you put all of Leon Rosselsons, Eric Bogles, Ewan MacColl and Steve Knightley's talents together - great as these writers are- I'm sure they couldn't come up with a better song about being English, and what it feels like being born into this bloody class system. Sheer genius - and the whole country understood what it was talking about - not just the tiny folky segment.

No jigs, no reels, no DADGAD guitar, no playing false and prettifying the language, no ancient instrumentation or ballade form, rustic setting, and all the other stuff that makes me wonder why the folk world saw nothing about my life that needed expressing.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: number 6
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 10:22 PM

I'd say it is.

biLL

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 10:49 PM

There are some pretty good reasons to consider jazz both traditional and folk music, though there are some good reasons to not consider it as either, as well. A moot point, as we say. Jazz is really a process, and that process is at the root of most American popular music. It has been said that Bebop was one of the primary influences on Bluegrass(particularly by Earl Scruggs). Certainly there in Rock, and all the other forms of country, as well. Blues pretty much goes without saying.

I'll just duck, now:-)

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 11:30 PM

Bebop and Bluegrass.I care little, for either Earl Scruggs or Bird,now I know why. Id rather have Miles Davis and the stanley brothers OR EVEN BETTER Bix Beiderbecke and charlie poole.
musicians should be able to express emotion,for me Scruggs is a musical typewriter,and Bird is on some idosyncratic, intellectual musical trip.
jazz is not at the root of the old APPALACHIAN MUSIC ,most of it came from Scotland, England, Ireland,THE APPALACHIAN MUSIC was supposed to have spawned bluegrass, in fact I have a book of Flatt AND Scruggs,their music is described on it as Folk Music with an overdrive.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 11:47 PM

Show me where in Scotland, England, or Appalachian banjo came from--And show me where Travis picking originated--and find me your UK progenitors to Charlie Poole--and while you're at it, please tell me where you get all your misinformation--

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: GUEST,Scoville
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 11:52 PM

Don't sweat it, M.Ted. The roots are obvious if you listen to bluegrass and then listen to blues.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 12:05 AM

Jazz basically sucks. You can't sing along with it, whistle it, and it is usually impossible to make it work with a banjo.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 01:11 AM

Right. Thank you, Scoville. And GUEST,some have got it, some never get it.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 02:01 AM

Louis Armstrong made it work with a banjo.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: number 6
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 02:08 AM

"jazz basically sucks. You can't sing along with it, whistle it, and it is usually impossible to make it work with a banjo."


HuH ?!?!?!?!?!
Where have you been?

biLL

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Rasener
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 04:22 AM

Ice Cream George Lewis & his Ragtime Jazz Band

Have a listen. Good for singing to.

Ice Cream

Maybe not suitable for a folk evening as its too uptempo and happy LOL :-)

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 06:36 AM

mted; have a listen to the pete seeger playing the banjo thread, recorded in 1949.he talks about old scotch ballads that arrived in america 200 years ago,and links them up to american banjo playing.
now I grant you there is also a blues,as well as a country and old thyme influence in bluegrass ,the blues scale and the bluegrass scale are the samething [Albeit against different chord sequences,and used slightly differently].
however most of the singing has a much stronger old thyme appalachian influence,here is a quote from the back of a stanley brothers vinyl lp..
THE STANLEY BROTHERS are one of the few acts that consistently experience good sales of country tunes and MOUNTAIN BALLADS.[its these mountainballads that came from scotland etc].now please dont tell me ths Stanley brothers are not bluegrass, WHAT IS CLINCH MOUNTAIN BACKSTEP[ To my mind they are closer than merle travis[dark as the dungeon and nine pound hammer have been included in folk collections and the latter in traditonal finger picking FOLK styles,In my opinion Merle Travis was a folk country crossover,his songs may be covered by bluegrass artists but they are also covered by folk artists.
check out Jean Ritchie, Doc Watson, Clarence Ashley ,and then woody guthrie AND MRS TEXAS GLADDEN singing in pete seegers film AN OLD BALLAD
what Pete Seeger effectively says is that in the south the two traditons met. end product to my ears BLUEGRASS ,..
jimmie Rodgers who was not BLUEGRASS was more interesting incorporating the swiss yodel, twelve bar blues,on occasions jazz players like Louis Armstrong, EarlHines.
I hope you are not going to try and say that there is no connection between bluegrass banjo and other American banjos styles.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 02:44 PM

this is confusing...

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 03:07 PM

Where have I been? Around good music all of my life. So "huh" back. I also forget that you just do not hear good harmony singing in jazz, either.

And Louis Armstrong hardly made it work with a banjo. A trumpet and a smelly old handkerchief, maybe, but if you confuse a dixieland style banjo with a banjo in folk music, you obviously are confused.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Bernard
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 03:14 PM

Try asking Cathryn Craig about Appalachian links with the UK... her Great Grandaddy was even recorded and photographed by Cecil Sharp when he was in the Appalachians researching exactly that.

This is FACT, not OPINION.

These days Cathryn tours with her partner, Brian Willoughby (ex Strawbs), and proudly talks about the UK/Appalachian connection during gigs. As she's talking about her immediate family, I reckon she's something of an authority on the subject...

Oh, and Debbie McClatchey is another you could ask...

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 03:18 PM

A banjo is a banjo. They come in different tunings and so forth and get played differently, but so do fish and you wouldn't call a sardine a bird just because it's not a shark.

And a banjo is a key instrument in early kinds of jazz, then or now.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: number 6
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 09:53 PM

"you just do not hear good harmony singing in jazz,"

so ... you don't hear good harmony in a lot of folk music either.

biLL

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: GUEST,Scoville
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 11:12 PM

Nobody said Appalachian music didn't have UK roots. Jean Ritchie, among others, have proven that even if any reasonable person had ever doubted it. It was only pointed out that Appalachian music is not the sole root of bluegrass and that bluegrass owes very nearly as much to blues as it does to anything else. There are also some significant differences, though, between bluegrass and older forms of Appalachian music.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: fat B****rd
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 05:14 AM

"you just do not hear good harmony singing in jazz" ???????
Try Lambert, Hendricks and Ross/Bavan or the less comercial Manhattan Transfer.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 05:40 AM

All these arguments always come down to the same thing.

There is an element in traditional English folk scene that sees itself aloof from the rest of us. Not a large large element perhaps - but an influential element. They held key positions as DJs and journalists in the bad old days before the internet introduced an element of democracy into the situation.

Their snobbishness had a deep and proud resonance within certain elements of our middle classes. And still they talk to us as though we are pieces of shit, to be excluded from the folk music movement and folk music radio whenever possible.

What is it the IRA say....... our day will come - or some such. Perhaps not in my lifetime, certainly many great writers and artists must have been lost to this bullshit. I can think of several. However I believe the role of these people in all this, will seen in history as shameful.

Big Al Whittle
(whose first guitar/banjo hero was Eddie Condon - guitar/banjo player to Bix Beiderbeck, Fats Waller, The Mound City Blues Blowers, Bud Freeman and others. Incidentally Eddie played a four string guitar - abit like Johnnie Handle and Seth Lakemen, and a Vega banjo - like folksinger and instrumentalists too numerous to mention)

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: GUEST,shepherdlass
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 06:06 AM

For good harmony singing in jazz, also check out Take Six. Brilliant, gospelly (and therefore very folky) harmonies.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Rasener
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 06:18 AM

Is it possible for mudcatters to any music snippets that we could listen to that might help understand the fifferences based on the arguments above?

Also can anybody think of any songs that are sung in Trad Jazz, Folk Music, Apalachian, Bluegrass, Blues etc.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 06:36 AM

the house of the rising sun,in different forms qualifies.clarenc e ashley rising sun blues, leadbelly, house of the rising sun, sung in both blues and folk music,and occassionally played by trad jazz bands,occassionally by bluegrass bands..
sitting on top of the world,I have recorded it folk style with concertina[around the harbourtown c d]sonny Terry AND brownie Mcghhee [blues] bluegrass bands[acuff].Occassional TRAD JAZZ BANDS.DocWatson APPALACHIAN

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: BanjoRay
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 10:18 AM

Well, Villan, one example is the Derby Ram that crossed the pond and evolved into Didn't He Ramble, that was recorded by Charlie Poole and the North Carolina Ramblers (old time string band) and by many New Orleans jazz bands. It is also done by Bluegrass bands, but I can't think of an example at the moment.
Ray

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Rasener
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 02:12 PM

Some links to the songs that we could listen to would also be verfy much appreciated.

What a cracking thead. Keep it coming.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 02:29 PM

I am a bit peeved that, given this is an American forum, with many American musicians, musicologists, and and others who have studied, and understand this stuff fairly exhaustively, we are expected to take direction from across the pond types whose enthusiasm surpasses their expertise.

You're not in Kansas anymore, Toto.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:03 PM

You lost me there Ted - you want the Yanks in or out.....?

I don't think we are excluding anybody.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Rasener
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:12 PM

Why should you be peeved M Ted

I as a novice invited anybody around the world to join in a very interesting topic.

Are we in the UK not allowed anymore to participate on this website.

Do you run a folk club M Ted?

I do and I run it out of the goodness of my heart and on a no profit basis. I provide a place for many performers to show what they are made of and get a decent amount of people who come to listen.
I feel that I have just as much right to be involved in Mudcat as performers.

Sorry if that offends you M Ted, but thats the way it is. If you don't like the thread then don't post.

Iam not a performer, just a stupid prat who tries to promote folk music in its many guises to a rurtal community. I don't ask for anything.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Tootler
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:33 PM

M.Ted, You come over to me as an arrogant sod.

Believe it or not, there are a great many fine Jazz musicians on this side of the pond. There are also people on this side of the pond who are very knowledgeable about Jazz. To use your expression, they have studied and understand the stuff.

We are more than happy to acknowledge the American origins of Jazz, but I think you really ought to appreciate that good Jazz is not confined to the USA and this has been the case for many years now.

I think it is fair to say that we are unlikely to find real Jazz experts on a folk music site - from either side of the pond.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Declan
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:51 PM

A lot of people on this forum and elsewhere seem to view folk music from their own perspectives, I suppose we all do to some extent.

The question has been interpreted by some as meaning "is trad Jazz acceptable in English Folk clubs", where others started to talk about traditional English folk.

Someone early in the thread even suggested that it was okay to bring in "non-folk music such as bluegrass" occasionally.

Now whatever about trad. jazz which to me is a folk music which grew up in the melting pot that is the US, anyone who thinks that bluegrass isn't folk music wears a very narrow pair of blinkers indeed.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:57 PM

Actually the term "Dixieland" came from the Original Dixieland Jass Band who recorded the first generic music.

The question of labels comes into play. Was Bix a trad jazz player, a "dixie" player or a variation of New Orleans (because he was influenced by Louis)? Well using so many labels, a lot of misinformation is fed about the music itself. As in the field of jazz as well as "folk", influences range widely and it's difficult to pin-point a style of music without referring to other influences outside that music.

Is there a real "Folk Scene" or is it a self-conscious attempt to recreate what is thought of as folk music for a small coterie of music enthusiasts?

As to the "stripey vests" and "garters on the arm", you only need to be reminded of those practioners of "folk" who dress in overhauls, wear funny hats or sun glasses to attempt to give their expression a visual validity.

Jazz is an amalgam of many different forms of music, classical, folk, ethnic, etc. The main thrust I advocate is that jazz is essentially an improvisational expression. There are those who disagree claiming that jazz "charts"...musical arrangments...constituted a jazz expression. I believe that there are those folk musicians who improvise thus making what they do a candidate for a kind of folk jazz. The blues players are one example.

So the Trad Jazz scene in the UK as well as the Folk Scene may be enclaves of people interested in certain musical expressions but whether they are actually representative of jazz or folk music is questionable. It depends upon how big you want to make the tent.

I submit that jazz is a form of folk music. If folk music is something that the people listen to and participate in, then Swing from 1930's - 50's could also be called Folk Music.

If Folk Music is an arcane study by folklorists and academicians, then certain preferences may establish a bias in favor of that kind of music.

The solution is to then go to the music you prefer to listen to represented by the artists who play it. The labels have a value to a point. But they break down when you analyze them closely. Most of the good that the labels do is point you to the right record bin in the store.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: eddie1
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:26 AM

Excellent thread and good to hear the differing opinions (with the exception of MTed who obviously has his head so far up a certain portion of his anatomy that his post had to be a skilful example of touch-typing,)

For me, I guess my first hearing of any kind of "folk music" was going to a Ken Colyer concert in the early fifties and hearing the Ken Colyer Skiffle Group. My musical path was then Lonnie Donegan – skiffle - Woodie Guthrie – Jimmy Rodgers – Carter Family – Bluegrass – Hank Williams. At this point things moved equally along several paths. Folk club (The Howff in Edinburgh) – Scottish folk music; Country – back to bluegrass – Old Time Music – Scottish/English/Irish folk music. Traditional Jazz.
Somewhere through this I learnt to play double bass then guitar and along with the music mentioned above, played pop of the time (more paying gigs).

I think more folks than care to admit it owe their interest in folk music to Lonnie and without Traditional Jazz, he would not have had the exposure he did. I believe Traditional Jazz is certainly a first cousin to Folk Music and whether or not it would be welcome in a folk club is very much up to the open- or narrow-mindedness of the organisers. Provided nobody comes along expecting to hear traditional, unaccompanied folk songs, there should be no problem.

Keep it coming.

Eddie

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Scrump
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:35 AM

I am a bit peeved that, given this is an American forum, with many American musicians, musicologists, and and others who have studied, and understand this stuff fairly exhaustively, we are expected to take direction from across the pond types whose enthusiasm surpasses their expertise.

I don't want to get you into yet another slanging match, M.Ted (you seem to be involved in enough already). But your remarks above are objectionable, as they imply that people outside the USA are not qualified to contribute to this discussion simply because they are 'across the pond'.

Given that this discussion is about 'trad jazz' (a UK term I believe, not normally used in the USA AFAIK), I don't see how you can justify your remarks. I think you should apologise to all non-US readers of this thread.

And nobody is 'directing' anyone - where did you get that idea? This is a discussion open to all, in the spirit of Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: eddie1
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:54 AM

Well said Scrump!

Eddie

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 12:23 PM

In reviewing what some feel are offensive comments--I see that I directed my ire vaguely at "across the pond types whose enthusiasm surpasses their expertise." I see in retrospect, that it could appear to apply to a lot of perfectly fine, talented, and intelligent people--much regret for that.

You certainly can discuss--whatever you want, and play, and listen to whatever sort of music you want. And, of course, you may feature whatever you like in your music programs. I have great respect for those who, without (or even with) compensation, do the unappreciated work of conceiving, producing, and booking musical events.

I have no issue with any of that. I just don't like being "told" what Bluegrass music, and jazz for that matter, is or isn't.

Captain Birdseye rebuked me with this comment "jazz is not at the root of the old APPALACHIAN MUSIC ,most of it came from Scotland, England, Ireland".

I never said that jazz was at the root of Appalachian Music. I only said that Blind Blake's Rags, Travis-picking, and Scrugg's three finger banjo style were rooted in jazz. I have played, studied and taught this sort of music for many years--so I have first hand knowledge.   

Captain Birdseye's comments, and those of others, like Bernard, were dismissive, without any substance, other than that the music was from "Scotland, England, and Ireland".

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 12:42 PM

Well that seems fair enough M Ted. No harm done in my case, and I would like the thread to be constructive and helpful from all parts of the world.
Its not meant to be an argument about where it came from, but more about wether Trad Jazz is part of the folkscene.
Any facts that substantiate or not are all welcome, but lets try and at least keep this thread from getting into arguments.

Cheers

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 12:44 PM

"I never said that jazz was at the root of Appalachian Music" - so why should M Ted describe Captain Birdsey's comment that ""jazz is not at the root of the old APPALACHIAN MUSIC" as a rebuke?

All the Captain said was that he didn't much like some of the music that M Ted does like. That wasn't a rebuke. Musical tastes differ, that's all. That's why there's a Mudcat in the first place.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: pdq
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 01:03 PM

M.Ted is one of the most interesting people at the Mudcat. I never miss one of his posts, as I know there will be something to learn. As far as being polite and articulate, we all are wanting in these skills to some extent.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 01:29 PM

thankyou. m ted, did sayJazz is really a process that is at the root of most american popular music,it has been said that bebop was one of the primary influences of bluegrass.
sorry, but i dont see much influence of bebop in the stanley brothers music., or in bluegrass,i hear a strong american mountain /old thyme influence, and a smaller blues influence., in both the flatt /scruggs and stantleys, ihear no bird like solos.
jazz is not at the root of country music ,which surely qualifies as american popular music. and I am aware of Western swing,which i see as a cross between jazzand old/thyme[but it isSTILL not at the root of COUNTRY].
Mted you know nothing about me ,so its a bit silly to accuse me of mis information.like yourself i have been absorbed in american music , of all sorts.for many years.I ALSO TEACH TRAVIS GUITAR ETC just like yourself.
I do think trad jazz ,is part of the folk scene[with qualifications ]
see earlier posts. Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 01:50 PM

Thanks for the kind words, PDQ--I guess I do try to keep things interesting.

As a point of information, McG, my points are not so much about what I like or don't like, they are about the mechanisms that are used to play one kind of music or another.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 01:51 PM

Strangely enough, I'd say the traddy boys were nearer to bebop than any of us mouldy fig boys playing contemporary with its four square rhythms and relatively simple chord progrssions.

bagpipe players, and celtic music players all play more complicated scales and rhythms than we do.

For example the famous Byker Hill that Swarbrick and Carthy play has a time signature that is more like Mingus/Bartok/frank Zappa and that sort of weirdness than most of us guys would ever dream of taxing our paltry talents and listening abilities with.

Back in the sixties, British sax player Joe Harriot made a very interesting record of bebop sax, set against Indian instruments. And you sometimes hear Van the man doing something quite similar aginst a backwash of Irish instruments.

Truth is, the musicians have been there for years, its the critics and fans who need to catch up.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 02:44 PM

I started playing country music at the end of the sixties/beginning of the 70's, with a number of older musicians who had come up from the South. You will be surprised to know, as I was at the time, that these guys often considered themselves to be jazz musicians. Most had played what has been labelled "country music" since before the war--and they played it all.

And here's a quote, direct from the father of bluegrass himself, Bill Monroe, lifted from this websitehttp://www.balboafeet.com/articles/billmonroe.php --

"It's got a hard drive to it. It's Scotch bagpipes and old-time fiddling.... It's blues and jazz, and it has a high lonesome sound. It's plain music that tells a story. It's played from my heart to your heart, and it will touch you."

You can believe him, or not.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 03:39 PM

M TED ive been playing music since 1958,. now monroe was a very competent player and is entitlted to his opinions but I dont agree with bill monroes analysis,.
whos side was he on, when Senator Macarthy was pursuing Pete Seeger and blacklisting suspected communists Musicians,.such as[Paul Robeson]
just like you dont pay much heed to Humphrey lyttleton,I dont pay much heed to Monroe, well just have to amicably disagree

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 03:57 PM

I should have appended some sort of disclaimer on the Bill Monroe quote--it is his explanation of what he was doing. I cite him purely to make a point--his views. of himself and others, are not necessarily mine--I say no more, as I have gotten in enough trouble today.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 05:22 PM

"I submit that jazz is a form of folk music. If folk music is something that the people listen to and participate in, then Swing from 1930's - 50's could also be called Folk Music."

well, gosh...I hate to be seen arguing with a legend *grin*....but all that means is that you subjectively use a very broad definition. The big word there is 'if'...**IF** folk music is defined as broadly as that, then 90+% of music might be called 'folk', and would cease to mean much at all! I repeat...the words exist to REFER to differences.

"Jazz" means something...as does Bluegrass and Hip-Hop....if you want all that to be covered by "folk"...how, may I ask, do I refer to the old, acoustic or acapella, music people used to play on porches or taverns etc....largely before commercial recorded music? Do I have to use a 27 word sentence to refer to most of what is in the Digital Tradition database? Shucks...those Bluegrass folks get to reserve THAT name for a fairly narrow bunch of stuff, as do the Jazz folks....but being 'folks' doesn't make everything they do "folk music"...that's really just a linguistic accident.

This here English language is tricky...it'll make you think you said somethin' when you didn't...*grin*

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 05:57 PM

Yes I guess we'll let you refer to that as folk, even though it's a bit of a misnomer, seeing so few folk are interested.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 08:46 PM

"...how, may I ask, do I refer to the old, acoustic or acapella, music people used to play on porches or taverns etc....largely before commercial recorded music?

Old time.


(No, I'm not being flippant.)

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 09:24 PM

I realize that you are not being flippant.

sorry, but "Old Time" (old timey) also has a narrow, specific meaning. It refers, as you no doubt know, to the acoustic, largely band/group music of the early part of the 20th century(what the New Lost City Ramblers do). It is within the needed definition, but not inclusive.

I see my question was phrased so that it did sound very much like that....I should have written a longer sentence...*wry smile*. What I need is to be able to group traditional English ballads, American play-party songs, Civil war songs, and a lot of other stuff largely passed down in oral tradition, under a general term. For awhile, "folk music" handled that. Then as people messed with it, started writing "new" stuff..(singer-songwriter stuff, hoping for profit) and 'arranging' the older stuff, the 'feel' of it changed..(You know what I mean)..and "folk" was just SUCH a convenient word for anything done anywhere near an acoustic guitar or banjo.

It's not that I have some "primal need" to hoard that word for myself, but sheesh....I DO need to be able to differentiate "traditional" old music from its 2nd & 3rd cousins...and even the word 'traditional' is being co-opted.

What IS a purist snob to do? *sniifff*

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 12:41 AM

Most of the porch singers tended to have a healthy helping of things like "The Japanese Sandman" and "Everybody Works But Father" in their songbags--even the "folksongs" tended to be learned from songbooks. Most of our best loved American folksongs were fairly obscure when collected, and, before being published, were known either in isolated regions, or were confined to certain occupations.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Scoville
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 09:36 AM

Bill D--yes, "old-time" is narrower but it could still include everything you listed there. It's not just the tin-pan-alley-esque stuff. At least, it's not around here. (Personally, the New Lost City Ramblers are pushing it for "old time", for me. Too much 1960's folk revival in them.)

Personally, I think "folk" makes very little sense as applied to musical STYLE. It works much better if its used to describe origin, independent of style, influence, or other applicable genre; it could include all the genres that could be considered "folk". (Emmylou Harris is often cited as folk. Stylistically she's in that ambiguous folk/country/gentle rock area, and it seems to me she's been a rather big-name studio artist for a very long time now . . . )

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 09:39 AM

The thing that Americans might miss about this is that Trad Jazz, as an amateur/semi-amateur activity in the UK, was quite an active scene in pub sessions in the UK for quite a long time after the music had stopped featuring in the record charts. Generally before folk sessions really came along. The two operated in parallel, often in the same pubs, often with the same kind of people, players or punters. And distinct from the Jazz scene as such, which tended to look down on all this.

Dire Straits' "Sultans of Swing" is about this type of thing (though of course not an example of it - though the mood is right):

And a crowd of young boys they're fooling around in the corner,
Drunk and dressed in their best brown baggies and their platform soles.
They don't give a damn about any trumpet playing band.
It ain't what they call rock and roll -
And the Sultans played Creole

(Here's Dire Straits playing it live, but it takes some time to load.)

My impression is there's not too much of that around now. Pity. No, not part of "the Folk Scene" - but Folk Music alright.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: ThreeSheds
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 12:04 PM

I think all this Trad Jazz Folky confusion stems from the fact that all Trad Jazzers and Folkies wear sandals as footwear of choice

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 12:15 PM

Sandals for folkies? More likely Brown Boots. (I arsk yer...)

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 01:14 PM

I guess it comes down to how you consider definitions to be constructed.
Some wish to define it by 'who' does it. (The famous "horse" metaphor.) Thus, anything done by 'folks' is 'folk'. Cute, but totally useless except as a way to avoid thinking seriously about it.
Others, like Scoville, suggest a narrower, but top-down category such as "origin"....but this could so easily be muddled, as "origin" itself has many categories implied within it. 'Anonymous' origin? 'Age' origin? 'Place' origin? Some combination of those?

   What I prefer is a bottom-up, inductive definition, in which the rules for categories are 'discovered' by analysis OF music which is generally agreed on to be in the scope of the agreed on term.

Example: Take the Digital Tradition database, which is a collection of music submitted and collected by people who have been immersed in 'folk/trad' music for a long time. Now, take all the members of Mudcat and have them examine all the songs in the database, and, to the best of their ability, check off the ones they really think fit.
.....there will be some differences of opinion...Now, make a list of all the songs which are almost universally agreed on to be 'folk/trad'....let us suppose it includes 72.49% of the database contents.

Now comes the fun part.....WHY were those songs agreed on? What are the common characteristics that these songs seem to share that make them so obvious? (and as a secondary project, why were some songs NOT agreed on by a lot of ...ummm..'folks'?)

   I suggest that this would produce a list of from 5-6 to 10-15 characteristics (depending on how thinly we slice) that 'define' the genré. Then, to use the system, we would ask "does song 'X' have some, most or all of these defining characteristics?" This yields catagories like 'age','anonymous author', 'subject matter', 'style', 'commercially directed', 'copywrited' ....etc....

Note..**IT WOULD NOT BE REQUIRED TO HAVE ALL OF THEM**!!!! All this does is to indicate a relative position and help clarify thinking.....and, of course, that is how the DT database was constructed in the first place! Not by formally using this arcane process I have described, but in a subjective way. Since there are no laws to govern this, or official "Board of Musical Supervisors", it would not be written out or chiseled in stone, but if thought about, might cause contemplation....and of course, that is all *I* am trying to do right now....cause any masochists who have read this far to *think* about what categories and definitions are good for and how they are organized.

   Obviously, we are not going to 'have a vote' or 'form a committee' to DO this process, but merely by comtemplating the idea, it is possible to see WHY "Blue Suede Shoes" would get fewer 'votes' than "The Twa Corbies"....and thus, why it makes shopping for CDs easier for people like me if Elvis Presley is not included in a 'folk' catalogue. It is a practical matter! There ARE different 'feels' to various styles of music, and it is flatly useful to have words reserved for them.

I, it happens, am programmed to like older, more 'traditional' music, and, even though I appreciate many of the newer songs, it is usually because they have more of the 'feel' of the older ones. Many of Eric Bogle's, or Utah Phillips' songs have a larger % of the 'folk' characteristics than those of, say, "Nine Inch Nails" *grin*...or even Bob Dylan, though a few of Bob's do well in this subjective system.

Respectively, then, I submit that Trad Jazz, as great as it is, just should not be hit with a label that suggests it ought to be lumped in with Folk...this is just a careless misuse of both language and the reasoning process. For those who might still disagree, I would ask "what purpose does such a label serve"? My idea serves to clarify and make a distinction that is not only needed, but implicitly used every day.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: number 6
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 09:49 PM

Good example of contemporary Jazz/Folk (for those who require labels/categories)is Charlie Haden and Pat Metheny's "Beyond the Missouri Sky".

biLL

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:04 PM

Not all folk music is songs though, and never has been, Bill. People like to dance and parade as well as sing.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: pdq
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:14 PM

If we're promoting recordings, may I suggest Rob Ickes "What It Is?". Call it New Acoustic (I do), Newgrass or Jazz, it is just great. There are three Dobro giants working today: Mike Auldridge, Jerry Douglas and Rob Ickes.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:22 PM

I found the Pat Metheny home page and played some of his stuff...interesting, obvious talent....but hardly fits Jazz OR Folk. It is more influenced by jazz, but it is some sort of "contemporary musical free expression" in which 'style' is intentionally ignored. That's fine....he intrigues many people, and he explores, but he carefully avoids labels.

When musicians branch out and create new realms in music, they need new ways to describe it, rather than strrrretching old categories. Even if they have roots in the old ways, they are NOT the old way.

Metheny himself says ... "I was just a fan of music, and I didn't know that there were differences in style," Metheny says. "To me, music was music; it was just one big thing. The Beach Boys, the Beatles, Miles Davis, and Ornette Coleman were unified by the fact that their records were mixed together on the shelves of the little drugstore in our town. There were no different sections. Back then, there were musical things that I liked and wanted to learn, and they really jumped out at me. I never made much distinction about style. That's still sort of true."

Calling it "folk" is like calling the process of tying open tubes of paint over a canvas and hitting them with rolling pins "painting". Yeah, you get paint on a canvas...but...