Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)

Subject: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: woodsie
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 11:08 PM

He was executed at 3.00 GMT today

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: woodsie
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 11:09 PM

See HERE

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 11:10 PM

This is MUSIC?????? See the BS thread please.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: woodsie
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 11:15 PM

Well I suppose it's music to some people's ears!

Don't get so upset Sorcha the clones will move the thread. Personally I class most of the content in the music section as BS anyway (but good fun)

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: JennyO
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 11:18 PM

I think OBITs always start out here, and then get moved if necessary.

I'm sure the world will be a better place without him, but one has to wonder what secrets he took with him. There may be some sighs of relief coming from Washington.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Richie
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 11:29 PM

Hangman, hangman, hangman, slack your rope a while.
Think I see my brother, ridin' many a mile.
Well, brother, did you bring me silver? Brother, did you bring me gold
Or did you come to see me hangin' from the gallows poles?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Barry Finn
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 11:46 PM

His ghost will be back to bite us on the ass & any on all the deaths on our hands this'll be the one that'll come back to haunt US, this one along with his secrets.
This happened too fast their burying more than a body here & we're making damn sure that this is a family affair too.

Barry

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,gleaner
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 11:57 PM

"They're selling postcards of the hanging..." by Bob Dylan comes to mind. Internet profiteers and sensationalists will act similarly.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 11:58 PM

I will no revel in his death, but I will not mourn him, either.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 12:27 AM

A scrolling headline read: "Saddam's execution marks the end of a dark period of Iraq's history."

Whatever...

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Janie
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 12:50 AM

What Peace said....

Janie

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 01:20 AM

Richie,

You have one too many hangmen there.

Hangman Hangman slacken the rope
Slacken it for a while
I think I see my own true love
Coming for many a mile

(that last line is a guess, but anyway, in the version I learned years ago that first line wouldn't scan). okay, so there's some music here now.

Any bets on how long it will take the gruesome photos to bleed into the American press? The media folks are all trying to figure out who will run them first--because the first one is liable to get clobbered, then no one will care about the rest. Geez. Meanwhile, anyone in the Middle East had better be watching their back now.

SRS

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Bert
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 01:20 AM

I hope this will not be taken as a precedent. That would sure bode ill for OUR illustrious leader.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: alanabit
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 01:46 AM

It is very rare that a murderous thug like Saddam is punished. Had Pol Pot, Augusto Pinochet, Idi Amin Dada and Bokassa ended up on the gallows, I might have been able to see it as justice.
Saddam was a mediocre brute made bigger by accidents of fate and the cirumstances of his times. Sadly, I fear the future will bring forth more of his kind.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 02:07 AM

From the article linked above, "UK Foreign Secretary Margaret Beckett welcomed the fact that Saddam Hussein had been tried by an Iraqi court "for at least some of the appalling crimes he committed" and said "he has now been held to account".

I hope we will be able to apply the same standard of justice to Bush and Cheney.

...and lets not forget Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz.

Kissinger would be a good start.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 02:20 AM

Yeah,he was a murdering brute and was kept in power for for many years with American and western arms,finance and military equipment. The people of Iraq were tormented by Saddam and they are still being tormented today by invasion,occupation ,the death squads and a collapsed economy.
ifor

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: The Walrus
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 03:14 AM

It's a pity that he was executed when he was, as it effectively devalues the, still on-going trial, over the slaughter of Kurds, they must surely feel that, with Saddam's execution without the verdict in their case, that they have not received justice (does that make sense to people?).

As for the man himself - Well, I'll not grieve for him.

Walrus

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:38 AM

I'm with Peace.

eric

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:38 AM

GUEST,ifor - 30 Dec 06 - 02:20 AM

"Yeah,he was a murdering brute and was kept in power for for many years with American and western arms,finance and military equipment."

Apart from voicing this popular but highly inaccurate left-wing, anti-war, anti-Bush twaddle - Do you have any evidence to back up this statement?

I would rather think not - because all evidence clearly points to others namely Russia, China and France.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:51 AM

I must admit I don't mourn him but my feelings against the death penalty are greater than any "he was an evil man" feelings.

Also, I do not recognise his trial and as such, even if I was in favour of capital punishment, could only consider this act as murder.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Jeremiah McCaw
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:15 AM

Twaddle, GUEST. I find my life curiously undiminished by the loss of this (in)human being!

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:16 AM

Reply to Teribus,
You need to find out a lot more about how Saddam came to power and how he was maintained in power with the massive support of the USA and other states including those you have named.
When Saddam handed over to the UN some 11000 documents relating to arm sales and other military matters just prior to the 2003 invasion the US confiscated the bulk of the documents as they were highly embarassing to the US and big business interests.
You jeer at the anti war movement calling it "twaddle" but there were millions who marched to oppose the invasion of Iraq and the war has been a disaster for Iraq,the region and much more.Over 600000 Iraqis have been killed ,many more maimed.The place has been turned into a bloodbath.
Thousands of American soldiers have been maimed with the loss of limbs and head injuries and British soldiers have also been killed and wounded and psychologically damaged.All for Bush and his mate Blair and in pursuit of the drive to make the neo con vision a reality in the coming decades.It didn't work and the US is facing a catastrophic defeat.
Saddam has had to account for his brutal crimes against humanity Bush and Blair are still to be impeached.
ifor

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:25 AM

I guess I may be in a minority here but I would be saddened at the premature loss of anyones life by violence. What kind of world do we live in? A world where mans inhumanity toward man is prevalent and we punish it with more inhumanity.
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:29 AM

I don't find my life dimished either, JMc. That does not alter a belief that the death penalty is wrong for anyone or a belief that the trial was a farce.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:33 AM

In fact, JMc. The idea that your life being diminished or otherwise is a measure of whether someone should be put to death or not only leads me to wonder who the fuck you think you are.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:40 AM

It's so rare that an evil butcher actually gets his just desserts - usually they get away with it. It seems that the magnitude of the crimes committed are inversely proportional to the chances of receiving justice. If you kill one person there is a fair chance of, at least, spending a considerable amount of time in prison, or of being executed (depends on where in the world you commit the crime). Kill thousands, or 'better' yet, millions and there's a pretty good chance of dying of natural causes - in your own bed (or possibly hospital?) if you're Pinochet or a comfortable cell in the Hague if you're Milosevic.

Unfortunately, I suspect that Saddam's death has very little to do with justice (although I believe that he richly deserved to die). I think that he was swiftly despatched because he knew too much and because he was a puppet of external forces who had outlived his usefulness.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: MBSLynne
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:44 AM

I agree with both Peace and, until the last post, Guest.

I cannot under any circumstances condone the death penalty for anyone, no matter what they've done. What gives us the right to kill any more than them? But I'm not sad he's no longer in this world

LoveLynne

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: JennyO
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:46 AM

GUEST,Shimrod, I agree. Unfortunately we will probably never know because they are covering their tracks carefully.

As for the anonymous GUEST who said "...who the fuck you think you are." - that's the best laugh I've had all day!

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:50 AM

Sorry Jeeny O. Perhaps you can explain to me why someone finding their life diminished or otherwise should be considered to be a measure of approval or dissapproval for the death penalty?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:57 AM

in a former position i interview hundreds of refugees from iraq - some of whom were torture survivors.

I thought I was against the death penalty. But I have realised I'm not any more, because I think Saddam Hussein should die. He is responsible for the torture, sexual degradation, mutilation, pain, humiliation and extermination of tens of thousands of people. Those who have survived will not be able to relax until he's gone - because he is so wiley, so powerful that if he were to remain alive in captivity, he would surely bribe or influence his way to an escape. I'm glad he's gone.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:08 AM

George Galloway will be Inconsolable.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: JennyO
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:09 AM

Because of this, GUEST:

"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee." -- John Donne

Bearing this in mind, I think many of us are torn when it comes to brutes like Saddam Hussein, hence Jeremiah McCaw's comment that he felt "curiously undiminished". That would be my guess as to what he meant.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:12 AM

OK, you read it differently to me, Jenny O.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:46 AM

I know I'm probably out of step with the rest of humanity here but I am SORRY he was executed!

My reason? Apart from my own feelings that execution is murder and no person/government/court has that right, I think he should have been made to suffer for his natural span. The old expression of 'hanging is too good for him' applies here.

Secondly he will be seen as a martyr by some (sunnis for example) rather than a murderer etc.

Finally, and probably the most important of all, reprisals will be terrible. I doubt there will ever be peace on this part of the planet anyway, but the next period of its history will be dreadful indeed.

Rhiannon

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:59 AM

They showed an excerpt from the TV broadcast of the execution this morning on the BBC. Saddam was calm and composed in a dark suit and his executioners wore skimasks. Could they not in the whole of Iraq have found half a dozen men with the balls to show their faces while they executed another human being? As far as it being an official execution sanctioned by the state, the executioners wore bomber jackets and cheap trousers instead of uniforms. The overall impression was that of a schoolmaster being executed by cowardly minicab drivers.

A sad, tawdry, sordid spectacle. The whole thing gave Saddam an air of dignity that he never possessed or deserved in life.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 07:23 AM

Zany Mouse, you're not out of step with the rest of humanity, though you may be out of step with Americans.

For most of humanity, I suspect, the farcical trial - with defence lawyers being assassinated, the judge replaced if he didn't appear prejudiced enough, the defendants dragged out of court if they tried to shout their own defence, and into court if they decided to boycott the court - did no credit to the 'Iraqi' government.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 08:00 AM

'hanging is too good for him' applies here.

Secondly he will be seen as a martyr (Zany Mouse)

That is in a nutshell what I consider one often read wrong argument in this case. If on the one hand life imprisonment is seen as the worse punishment (In comparison to a quick death) why then should he only become a martyr when killed quickly?

Of course he would perceived being a martyr even with life imprisonment. My fantasy sees him in hunger strike against (real or imagined or, most likely, for propaganda purposes invented) mistreatment. Hugh demonstrations would plead for his release (in particulr, when he gets visibly older). People would be abducted with the demand of his release in exchange. The videos of the decapitations would be available in the net. Human Rights Watch would write articles about how he suffers (being propaganda fed by followers). Etc.

I consider the martyr argument as wrong, also from our experience. The German Neonazis rallied for the freedom of Hess who served a life sentence. The already dead Nazi leaders were mostly forgotten but a campaign for the release of a more than 90 year old men after decades of solitary confinement made some impression. Even his death had some propaganda value as "murder by the state". Who do you guess gets fresh flowers on his grave at his birthday? Hess, of course.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 08:06 AM

Saddam had to die. It's good he's gone. I've said for months that when he was captured I would have immediately turned him over to the Kurds. Not only was he a vicious tyrant but as long as he was alive he was the potential focus of a Baathist coup. NB, Baathist, not Sunni. There is a big difference. The important thing is to recognize the stupidity and unhelpfulness of attitudes like that of Teribus, who for months lumped all Sunnis together with Saddam, even going so far at one point as to claim that all Iraqi Sunnis were the equivalent of hard-core Nazis in 1945.

By far more important than Saddam's death is what I've been saying for over a year--Iraqi Sunnis need to know 1) they can trust Iraqi police and 2) they will be guaranteed more oil income than would accrue to them from "Sunni" areas of Iraq.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 08:07 AM

Chris B, it has always been the case that the executioners face is masked.

My response to Ifor:

"You need to find out a lot more about how Saddam came to power and how he was maintained in power with the massive support of the USA and other states including those you have named."

Again you trot out this baseless rhetoric that is completely untrue. Saddam Hussein came to power in 1979 as a result of an internal Ba'athist coup. The massive support given by the USA must have been particularly unique for that particular period in time, seeing as the US ceased to have any diplomatic links with Iraq in 1967 as a result of the "six day war".

"When Saddam handed over to the UN some 11000 documents relating to arm sales and other military matters just prior to the 2003 invasion the US confiscated the bulk of the documents as they were highly embarassing to the US and big business interests."

Sorry to point out the obvious Ifor but you did say that Iraq handed over documents to the UN didn't you? So they then must have read the whole thing in it's unabridged version. What was blanked out did not represent "the bulk" of anything, in fact most of it was leaked to the press anyway.

"You jeer at the anti war movement calling it "twaddle" but there were millions who marched to oppose the invasion of Iraq and the war has been a disaster for Iraq,the region and much more."

Again pointing out the obvious Ifor, while, "....there were millions who marched to oppose the invasion of Iraq" There were many more millions who didn't.

"Over 600000 Iraqis have been killed"

This figure is based on absolutely nothing, which seems to be a theme of most of your arguements - baseless unfounded crap - If you are going to attempt to argue a point using figures at least make some attempt to get them roughly correct.

"Bush and Blair are still to be impeached."

By whom and for what? Will the charges be laid based on hard and fast evidence - or your version - pure fabrication.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 08:10 AM

"...every man's death diminishes me..."

That includes the poor homeless guy who froze to death, Saddam Hussein, John Lennon, the most recent casualty in Afghanistan, my friend Jack's mother (who died quietly, surrounded by her family, on December 28), and everyone else.

The bell does NOT toll only for the executed, or the victims of AIDS, or those killed in war.

"Every" means "Every."

I need not mourn his passing, but "every man's death diminishes me."

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: kendall
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 08:17 AM

"I didn't get an invitation to the funeral, but I sent a letter of approval." (Mark Twain)

Ok, question. Saddam has lost his life by execution. Am I better off?
What if he had been treated like Rudolph Hess and died in prison? Would I be better off?

Killing him freed him. Imagine going from supreme ruler with the authority to decide who lives and who dies to nothing but a prisoner with no power of any kind. Wouldn't that be more punishment? It sure as hell would for me!

Beware of the person in whom the need to punish is strong.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 08:25 AM

To a dispassionate extra-terrestrial observer the human race must appear very strange. Every so often there appears in their midst a cruel monster who murders thousands, occasionally millions, of them. then, when it appears that the monster is about to be brought to justice, thousands of humans leap to the monster's defence! They are very good at finding reasons for excusing the monster or letting him off the hook:

- Other powerful humans invoke geopolitical expediency for defending the brute. Often, it turns out, the monster could not have committed his crimes without their help and support in the first place.

- Others appear to endorse the concept of a 'strong leader'; I recall that many Russians wept genuine tears of grief on hearing of Stalin's death, even though he may have tortured and imprisoned them and even slaughtered members of their families.

- Others piously intone that "the death penalty is wrong" and even suggest that we should 'forgive' the monster for his crimes. I note, though, that they seldom ask the surviving victims of the monster's cruelty what they think ...

I think that our hypothetical observer would speculate that one of these monsters would eventually succeed in wiping out all of the human race and that that race had an inbuilt flaw, a blindness towards such large scale criminality and barbarity, which would eventually make such an outcome inevitable.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 08:30 AM

Kendall--you are better off with Saddam dead. Now there is no chance for any kind of Baathist coup with the aim of putting him back into power. Without him, the real concerns of Sunnis can be addressed--and just maybe, the carnage on Iraqi streets can lessen--which would lessen the success of terrorism--the terrorism sparked by Bush's criminally stupid invasion.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 09:31 AM

Lots of times I wish I was an extraterrestrial observer...

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 10:08 AM

What Peace said and what Jenny O said and what JTT said and what Zany Mouse said and what Shimrod said and what Rapaire said and what Wolfgang said and what Ron Davis said...

in other words I'm really conflicted about this.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 10:14 AM

Reply to Teribus

To go back to the thousands of Iraqi documents handed over to the UN but confiscated by the US .They were grabbed within hours of being delivered and their contents are still not publicly known.
We do know however that the US was an important and major backer of Saddam throughout those long years when he was terrorising the Iraqi people.

It is also true that the US, through the CIA, worked to bring the Baathists to power an act which began the long nightmare for the Iraqi people.For an informed view of the links between the US and Saddam read Robert Fisk's article in todays Independent newspaper.
ifor

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: number 6
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 10:18 AM

I dunno .... now that has all been done .... the world still is not peaceful, or just ... but he still had to pay the piper I guess.

What does come to my mind and I find repulsive (over all this event in the last few hours) is the post from Guest, gleaner ....

"They're selling postcards of the hanging..." by Bob Dylan comes to mind. Internet profiteers and sensationalists will act similarly."

unfortunately this is so true.

biLL

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 10:29 AM

And then what Kendall said...

Oddly enough the British didn't execute Napoleon when they had him in custody. They sent him off to exile under heavy guard to the Isle of St. Helena in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. Maybe it would have been better to have exiled Saddam to Antarctica, but then there would be those cute penguins to worry about.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 11:16 AM

I agree with you, Georgiansilver, and you, Rapaire. I don't think killing him will remedy anything.

Whether the figure of how many Iraqis have died is substantiated or not, we DO know that more American soldiers have now died in Iraq than people were killed in 9-11.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 11:40 AM

Some people will make him a martyr now.

I agree he was an evil man but so is bush and blair they to are evil, because look at the people the americans prosecuted and tortured, the idians, the blacks, the jews... etc. the lists goes on but mind you so does every other country I mean all you need to do is look at the history of countries.