Importance of Melody in Song

Subject: Importance of Melody in Song
From: Stewart
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 05:59 PM

Singer songwriters often get a bad rap because of their navel-centric lyrics. But when I listen to some of their songs, even those whose lyrics are imaginative and interesting, I am often underwhelmed by the melodies (or lack thereof). I'm afraid I would never recognize the song by its melody alone. The melody should enhance the character of the song, whether it be uplifting or sad or funny. A good song should at least leave me humming the tune.

I'm developing a workshop on "Irish Slow Airs in Songs" for Rainy Camp and possibly for NW Folklife Festival – slow airs derived from songs and the use of slow airs as melodies for songs. This has got me to think about song melodies. Here are a few questions I'd like to explore.

Are melodies important? What makes a good melody? Where do melodies come from? Can anyone write a melody, or does it take a trained musician? What is the value of recycling old melodies versus writing new melodies? Are there changing styles in melodies? How do you go about writing a tune?

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 08:34 PM

Yes, there are few tunes as boring as those that simply decorate some guitar chord progression, with no independent rhythmic or melodic logic.

BUT restricting yourself to slow airs, Irish or otherwise, is nuts. There are some ideas that simply can't be expressed in slow tunes. Matt McGinn's output is a terrific lesson in how to pick the right tune - he took melodies from everywhere (or pastiched highly identifiable types of melody) to fit an enormous variety of songs. Often the tune was chosen simply because it was as incongruous as possible.

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: Stewart
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 09:30 PM

Jack, I'm not restricting myself to slow airs, that's just what I was exploring that got me interested in song melodies in general. I also play some pretty fast jigs and reels, and appreciate that many of those tunes have been turned into some great songs also.

But it's not just Irish tunes. I'm interested how new contemporary songs are being written. Some may have great lyrics but pretty boring melodies. So is it important to have good melodies as well as lyrics? And what is the best way to go about composing the melodies if they are important? Or are they best borrowed from existing songs or tunes?

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: mg
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 12:23 AM

Of course..how could it be music without a good tune. It can be poetry I guess but who would want to listen to it.

I vote for not recycling tunes unless absolutely inescapable. Each song deserves its own tune but sometimes they jump onto a tune. Of course an untrained musician can write a great tune. I don't know how training can make you come up with better melodies. I suspect that some people are so inately gifted they could with no input whatsoever, but I suspect that most very good tunes..the tuner was exposed to a certain type of music from infancy and absorbed it and was able to recreate somewhat similar tunes when the time was right.

Also, sometimes, not always, when you put words to a beautiful tune it wrecks the tune from that point on.

Please no more lyrics for Star of the County Down. mg

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 04:11 AM

I've always found tune/melody writing the hardest part of a song, plus I have the brain of a goldfish and very little composing ability so I'm one of the tune thieves mg hates so much! :) If I can't write the note progression down immediately, I will forget it. It appears that I can only write in the minor key and I've only ever written 2 tunes that I've remembered - one I composed on my mobile phone composer (and what a pig it is that my subsquent phones don't have this ability) and one on the piano during an enforced stay in the dining room. I have since discovered that the second of my compositions is a tune I heard several times about 15 years ago and I've managed to reverse a couple of lines. What the hell, I'm keeping it as mine because it goes to a song that someone I like very much wrote.

Anyhoo... it's the marmite argument all over again. Either you think melody is important or you don't. Those with an instrumental background will tend to listen to the music first, whereas those with a lyrical grounding will pay more attention to the words. The acid test is using the same words with different tunes - Mass settings and other religious choral pieces are good examples.

A good, memorable melody is vital if you want your song/tune broadcast to the world by whichever means. If you just want a showcase, one-off performance then it's not so important. As my experience with navel-gazing dirges has been limited of late, and I can't remember the tune of a single one, I would suggest that these were 'show/off' performances that only require the one airing to 'get it off his chest' as it were.

Mozart wrote music for the Church and so his mass settings are melodic, memorable and meant to be sung as part of a religious service. The congregation would know the words and so the melody was the important feature. Many of todays religious songs concentrate on evangelising and reassuring congregations from different liturgical backgrounds, so melody is quite often secondary to the lyric.

As for what is a melody? It's whatever progression of notes you hear in whatever context that makes you want to hear it again. Just as there is rhythmn in life (and the basement and the street), there is music in the wind, lyrics in the trees and melody in water.

LTS

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: Scrump
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 04:32 AM

Interesting thread. Of course a good melody is better than a poor one, but sometimes I find myself paying more attention to the tune than the lyrics, so maybe there's an argument that if you have lyrics that need to be heard, you should keep the tune simple, so your audience will pay full attention to the words. I don't know whether any songwriters do this consciously though, or whether it's just that they don't know how to write good tunes.

I agree there are too many songwriters that write 'nothing' melodies, or very derivative ones that leave you yawning inwardly. (But I'm not much of a songwriter myself, so maybe I shouldn't be so critical of others).

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 05:06 AM

Paul Macartney and Stephen Foster,were great melody writers.Ithink I wrote a great melody for Sailortown.http;//www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 05:08 AM

:apologieshttp://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: Scrump
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 06:18 AM

Not only a great melody writer, but you're so modest too, Cap'n :-)

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 07:26 AM

What is "song" whithout "melody"?

Rap?

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: alanabit
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 07:39 AM

I have had a bash at this songwriting lark. I have no formal training in composition. I believe the same was true of Paul MacCartney and several of the classic show song and jazz songwriters.
Speaking only for myself, I tend to find that my better efforts seem to have a life of their own. I usually "hear" them before I write them down, so the words and the melody usually come together. There is nothing particularly "creative" about it. If I can't hear a song, I can't write it down! If I can't sing the first line - or main line - of a song straight away, I am rarely interested in trying to make anything happen.
I think you get rotten melodies and lyrics from trying to force words and tunes together. To me it feels like an arranged marriage, whereas I am keener on love matches!
This is not intended as a shot at those who prefer to use melodies, which they already admire. Arguably, that is a more creative process, because it is bringing something into existence, which was not there already!

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: Scrump
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 07:54 AM

It's always interesting to me to hear how different songwriters approach the task (if you can call it that). I guess it is a task if, say you are under contract to produce songs for an album, or a radio show or something, and have a deadline. But alanabit's songs seem to almost "write themselves" - I've heard other songwriters use that expression.

That must be a great gift to have - I just wish it would happen to me like that.

I wonder if there's any evidence that songs that appear almost spontaneously like that, are any better than those that the writer has had to toil over - or vice versa?

Paul McCartney is quoted above as a good melodist (if I can use that term). One of his most successful songs "Yesterday" apparently came to him in a dream, and he wrote nonsense lyrics to it at first ("Scrambled Eggs" was the working title ISTR). That seems to support the 'spontaneity' argument. Over the years, especially since the end of the Beatles, he has been responsible for a lot of dross - I wonder how much of that was 'spontaneous'?

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: Alec
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 07:56 AM

Speaking of "hearing" an as yet unwritten melody alanabit, McCartney literally dreamt up "Yesterday" waking one morning with the melody going through his head.A very cogent analysis of what may have been an unconscious scource of inspiration for this has been published at
http://www.Geocities.com/hammodotcom/beathoven/index.htm.
If anybody who is less blue_clicky challenged than I would like to do something with that I'd be grateful.
B.T.W. even if you dislike The Beatles, anyone who is interested in creaivity in music composition will probably like that site.

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 08:09 AM

I think a good melody is what makes you want to sing a song yourself instead of just listening to it.
Dick was right about Stephen Foster; he had a wonderful ear for melody. But so do a few modern examples - I'm thinking of Tom Lewis, Dave Webber, George Papavgeris and Dick himself. But, as Stewart said, all too many snigger-snogwriters don't have a gift for melody.
Maybe that's why much of the best comes from partnerships - Rice/Lloyd-Webber, Dwight/Taupin, Lerner/Lohwe, Rogers/Hammerstein, George/Ira - with each concentrating on what he does best but complementing each other.

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: ejsant
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 08:21 AM

Are melodies important? - Yes indeed, melody is the emotion of the lyrics made aural. I liken this to voice inflection in poetry recitation or story telling.

What makes a good melody? – That which evokes the emotion of the message of the lyric in the context of song. In the context of dance tunes it would be that which motivates the dancers to dance.

Where do melodies come from? – The soul.

Can anyone write a melody, or does it take a trained musician? – Anyone that can offer their emotion in an aural context certainly can. I can't read a note of music and have a modicum, at best, understanding of theory. I've developed (I can't say composed as I've never written a note) many different melodies. I usually have a friend play it along to my lilting.

What is the value of recycling old melodies versus writing new melodies? – I don't think it an either or circumstance. Coupling an old air with contemporary lyric can evoke the thought that things may not have really changed over all this time of human social evolution and as well a new melody taken with old lyric.

Are there changing styles in melodies? – Of course, look to the evolving nature of musical genres.

How do you go about writing a tune? – I think it more that the tune finds you rather than you it.

Peace,
Ed

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 09:07 AM

Scrump,sorry if I appeared big headed,i,m not in the same league as Stephen Foster WHEN it comes to writing melodies.
experience taught me hiding a light beneath a bushel,gets one nowhere.

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: Micca
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 09:25 AM

I would slightly modify the Title staement in my own context, I need the rhythm first, not necessarily a tune, or melody, but I have to have a tempo and a sense of how many "feet" in each line. I am a Words person First and foremost, I have always written poetry, and songs are just poems with a tune defining the rhythm. As someone said above songs do sometimes "write themselves" especially if its a subject area that I have immersed myself in and gathered, over a long period, a large amount of information. I rarely get words and tune together. On one memorable occassion I was on my way to a Folk club on London Underground, when suddenly i got the first verse, chorus and Tune all came into my head together, so I dragged out my Notebook (most songwriters carry one all the time, some of my best work has come while I was walking or travelling) that was the words yakemn care of my real problem was the tune, I do not write music!!!. so I just kept singing it to myself over and over again, until I reached my destination, wher I went straight into the toilets and sang it into my recorder, which I luckily had with me!!!
I wish I could write melody, and I envy those that can, its why sometimes I collaborate with others, I do the words and they do the tune,as in "Thiepval" and "Channels" both with Linda Kelly, visit Hissyfits website and you can judge for yourself whether we suceeded or not.

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 09:28 AM

I'm glad to hear that other people are interested in melody, because I fear we're in the minority.

In my opinion, melody is the "meaning" in music. It's what the music is about.

The twentieth century was all about the death of meaning in art. Think of the modern things one studies in college - poetry you can't figure out, music by Prokofiev, Rachmaninoff, Schonberg, abstract art. All go further and further from meaning.

By now, even rock pop and country are devoid of melody.

I know a man who plays harp in resorts. He told me that he is asked again and again to play "Stairway to Heaven." That's because it's one of the few songs of the last fifty years with a melody.

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: Scrump
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 09:34 AM

It's OK Cap'n, my comment was meant in a friendly way. And I agree that hiding your light under a bushel gets you nowhere - experience has also taught me that. A bit of "shameless promotion" as it was called in another thread, doesn't go amiss now and then. I just wish I'd written songs myself that I could boast about :-)

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: JeremyC
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 09:46 AM

Singling out something like melodic content and claiming it's the key to "meaning" in music is just silly. There are great compositions where the chord progression and rhythm are the chief source of interest. Erlkoenig, for example. Or how about Martin Carthy's rendition of "Famous Flower of Serving Men" on his Shearwater album? The melody is simple and consists of only a few notes, but what makes the song so gripping is the rhythmic interplay between the voice and accompaniment, as well as the sheer intensity of the words.

It doesn't take long to come up with examples of great music that isn't dependent solely on melody, and my guess is that this is because music consists of more than just a melody. If the harmonic, melodic, and rhythmic elements don't come together into some sort of satisfying combination, it's not good music. If the same three elements don't combine in a satisfying way with lyrics (which may or may not stand on their own as good poetry), it's not a good song.

And calling popular music "unmelodic" is ignorant in the extreme. The melodies may be repetitive and sound similar to one another (oh, but hello Irish music), but they are, by simple definition, melodies. How about the song that virtually every european should be sick of by now, "Dragostea Din Tea," which has an incredibly catchy (and strikingly simple) melodic hook. Or pull a Kelly Clarkson album off the shelf. What's she singing, if it's not "melody"? You may not LIKE the melody, or that type of melody, or you may find it uninspired, but claiming it isn't there is fatuous.

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 10:05 AM

The synthesis of melody and lyric is what makes a song. If you have crap melodies and great words, become a poet. If you have great melodies and crap words, become a composer of instrumentals. If you have both great words and melodies, become a songwriter. If you have neither, become a critic.

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: Scrump
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 11:03 AM

If you have neither, become a critic

Or become a pop star :-)

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: GUEST,Pinko
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 12:29 PM

I'm not a musician but I sing a bit and like to write songs. Sometimes I find easy to develop a melody from a scrap of lyric and sometimes melodies just float into my head and I sing them into a tape recorder before I forget them. If I get really stuck, I pick up a book of lyrics, choose a song I don't know and use the words to help me come up with a decent tune and then write my own lyrics to that tune.

What I worry about though is that I have no idea where the songs I write really come from. It's all about the lightbulb flashing above my head and who's to say when that will stop happening?

Melody is a difficult thing to define, I think. Many folk song melodies are simple to the point of being inane yet somehow within the context, work. Steve Rich's music is stunning but is is melodic? Well, maybe. Leo Sayer's songs have strong and memorable melodies that you can hum after one hearing. Do we hail him as a genius? We don't but maybe we should.

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: Stewart
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 12:41 PM

When I went to bed last night with only one response to my post, I was beginning to think that nobody on Mudcat really cared much about melody, just the words. So when I fired up my computer this morning I was pleasantly surprised. Many interesting comments.

I asked several questions but tried not to give my own bias. So I guess I should answer some of my own questions. I confess I'm one of those people who probably listen more to the melody than the words of a song. That is probably because I am an instrumentalist and play a lot of tunes on my fiddle. But I am also a singer, and so the words are also important. I think it is important that the melody allows the words to be understood and have meaning.

Melody is not only a sequence of notes, but it also has rhythm - the notes have different time values and there are sometimes silences between notes. So when I try to put some words to music I first think of the rhythm. Is it a waltz, or 4/4 time, or a jig in 6/8 time. The words want to be spoken to a certain rhythm.

My songwriting experience has been to put other people's words to music. I've often seen lyrics to a song without any tune (happens on the Mudcat most of the time) and if I like the words, I set them to my own music. Most often the words seem to demand a certain melody. I just start to read the words and then I'm singing and I have no idea where the melody has come from. Then I quickly have to write something down before I forget the melody that just popped into my head. And of course I have to work on it to get the whole form and to match the melody to what the words are saying.

I've also written a few instrumental tunes. In those cases the tune just popped into my head and begged to be written down. I've never thought about writting a tune, rather the tune came to me without thinking about it. I have no idea where these melodies come from.

I don't think you have to be a trained musician to write tunes. It probably requires some inate skills. Muscial training can help. But also lots of listening helps. Listen to good music, but also listen to the world around you - wind, birds, water, people's speech (some language is very musical).

I favor composing new melodies rather than recycling old ones. After all, without new melodies one would get tired of the same old ones over and over again. And as Mary said, "each song deserves it's own tune."

Anyway, keep your comments coming. This is all very interesting. I'm still trying to understand what melody in song is all about.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: MMario
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 12:49 PM

I've been following this with interest. It's hard for me to say which I consider more important - the lyrics or the melody. A lot of times a melody will "catch" me -- but the same is true of lyrics. when *both* grab my attention - then learning the song become almost comulsive.

I wish I had more of a knack for coming up with tunes - as I'll often run across lyrics/poems I like but I can't come up with a tune I find fitting.

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: Jim McLean
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 01:41 PM

When Dominic Behan's uncle Peadar Kearney was being congratulated for writing the Soldier's Song, he said he only wrote the words. 'Sure', said his admirer.'But a bird can't fly with one wing'

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 01:54 PM

"My love she speaks like silence,
Without ideals or violence,
She doesn't have to say she's faithful,
Yet she's true, like ice, like fire.
People carry roses,
Make promises by the hours,
My love she laughs like the flowers,
Valentines can't buy her."

That is beautiful poetry that goes with a beautiful melody. The totality of the song would NOT be what it is without the melody Dylan put to it or wrote the words with. I think both lyric and melody came at 'the same time'. I can also think of fifty melodies that would ruin that great piece of writing.

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: Marje
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 02:08 PM

I, too, have had the experience of waking up with a new tune in my head, but generally it's a trite, boring tune, just one long musical cliche, and I have to try to rinse it out of my head by playing or listening to a better tune.

I'm full of admiration for people who can write truly good melodies, but I'm wary of the "the tune came to me" school of writing. Paul McCartney has a lot to answer for - he has a special gift, and was already an experienced tunesmith when he had the famous "Yesterday" moment.

But too often I've heard people proudly declare that a song has just arrived in their heads, only to offer us a tune that is either very similar to a well known one, or simply trite and formulaic. For most people, true creativity demands real commitment and active input, not just waiting for a tune or song to "arrive" like a parcel in the post.

I do agree that melody is very important, and that most of the new songs that get aired are melodically deficient. I can see the need for new lyrics - there are always new things to say about the world - but there are so many thousands of good tunes that are no longer used, I think it would be better to recycle some of them than offer a third-rate new tune. Unless you're Paul McCartney.

Marje

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: Micca
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 02:36 PM

For A good example, for me, of lyrics and melody producing something more than the parts try Richard Thompsons, " a heart needs a home" I had never heard it sung and a friend sent me the lyrics, and I thought they were among the Bleakest set of words in a poem, full of despair and the futility of life, but when you hear them done as a song with the tune, they are softened and toned down amazingly.

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: Alec
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 02:38 PM

Across The Universe & Satisfaction were also songs that were dreamt.

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: Songster Bob
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 02:42 PM

When writing songs, one can start with the tune or the words or, happy chance, both. If you start, as I tend to, with the words, you have to watch out for several traps. One is writing all the songs to the same rhythmic pattern (ah, our first principle -- rhythm -- is central, isn't it?). I used to compose lyrics on the subway ride to my office. And I noticed, after awhile, that I had several lyrics that would all sing to the same couple of tunes. I had to make myself try different patterns, fairly arbitrarily, to break the habit. Lots of those lyrics never became finished songs, either.

Then again, writing tunes can have snags, too. I find that if I'm noodling on guitar or banjo, a tune fragment will come to me. Then I try to repeat it, to "get it down" (i.e., remember it longer than one repetition). But my conscious mind starts to look for origins -- "what existing tune does this sound like?" Bang! Now I'm playing that existing tune, and my new masterpiece has gone to that organic bit-bucket in the sky. So the only way to break that pattern is to NOT think "What does this sound like?" but instead play it till it sticks. Then you can have your friends tell you, "Hey! I didn't know you played any Joanie Mitchell!" and then start over.

When the tune comes with its own words, when you start humming or picking and a lyric line flows with it, that's the special time, that's the "song is writing you" moment. And it's rare. It may be genius (which is why it's rarer with me than some others), it may be fate, it may be cosmic influence, it may be a toothpaste commercial. But those are the ones that often end up being the best ones. Or at least the start of the best ones -- you still have to rewrite, revise, and sing to check on singability. Too many writers never really check on the singability of their words, so we get the emPHAsis on the wrong sylLABle and high held notes on bilabial fricative consonants and so forth. Alas, many, many, many, (far too many) songer-singwriters seem to think that the first words out of their mouths are gold, and that tinkering with them is a travesty. Wrong.

That's my tuppence.

But if it's not got a good beat, easy to dance to, it doesn't deserve a 70. Remember that.

Bob

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: GUEST,Val
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 02:46 PM

I have occasionally practiced at what I call "Chop Shop Songwriting". You take an existing melody that has a "feel" you like, or fits the lyrics you have, then change the body lines, file off the serial numbers, and give it a new coat of paint. Voila! New song.

By "change the body lines...", I mean you start with the existing tune's basic structure (chord progression, where the melody goes higher or lower, where there are significant jumps in rhythm or pitch, etc). Then tweak those so it's a different tune (ascending notes vs. descending, make the interval between two notes into a fifth rather than a third, swing it from 4/4 time into 6/8, whatever). Sometimes you can take a printed score & turn it upside down to come up with something new - I have heard a legend that the main theme from the first Star Wars movie is based upon "Born Free" in this fashion. And don't the opening bars of "The Ballad of Gilligan's Island" sound just a wee bit like "Spancil Hill"?

Two caveats:

1. be sure to change things enough so there is no doubt that it is a different composition from the original. You must apply some creativity if you want to claim something as your own.

2. you still have to apply a sense of aesthetics to the result, and tweak it until it sounds good.

This is sort of codifying and structuralizing (is that a word?) the process of taking inspiration from an existing work. How many songwriters can truthfully claim they never incorporate melodic ideas they have heard elsewhere? Most of us listen to music we think is "good" and try to make something that is "as good".

Is this the best way to create new and unique melodies? Maybe not - but it can be a fun and perhaps useful exercise for developing the CRAFT of songwriting to go along with the ART of songwriting. It also helps to develop a recognition of what elements make a melody "work". Inspiration is a fine and necessary thing, but most of the time it must be coupled with some skill to bring the inspiration into reality. Just as performance benefits from practice, so too does writing.

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: Alec
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 03:17 PM

For myself melody, rhythm & harmony are all integral to a song & if the song has a lyric it must be fully thought out but the crucial thing is that the melodic line of a song stripped of the other components REMAINS a song.This does not hold true for the other components which is why I believe that the importance of melody in song is one of absolute centrality.

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: Stewart
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 03:17 PM

I said earlier "I have no idea where these melodies come from."
But I think maybe I do. Our mind is always picking up things that we hear, whether or not we are conscious of it. This could be music that we've listened to, or a bird's call, or something else we heard in nature. And then our unconscious mind processes it, and out it comes sometimes. Not very often in my case, but every once and a while. That's why listening is very important.

Then I always have to check whether it's just some other known tune that I've recalled. Or is it really original? It probably is never really completely original. One of the melodies that I came up with for someone else's lyrics, I particularly like (and other have also). After much thought I think it came from a small fragment of another song, but that other song was in a completely different rhythm, but it was about a similar subject. And then the rest of my melody was quite different. So it must have been just a small fragment of something I had heard before that set this off.

I think the unconscious mind processing the many experiences we've had has something to do with it.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: Alec
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 03:26 PM

Stewart,if you visit the site I mention in my 07:56 posting & click on the article "Old Sweet Songs" you will see a good illustration of this which I believe adds preponderance to your theory.

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 06:44 PM

Here's an example of what Val was suggesting, one of mine, which ended up sounding like something from the late 17th century. I've suppressed the title I gave it since it's a bit of a giveaway. The tune I ripped off is *extremely* well known to a few million people. Anybody recognize it?

X:6
T:no comment
M:6/8
L:1/8
Q:3/8=100
R:slowish jig
K:ADOR
A2G A2E|cBc A2G|FAd EAc   |B>GF E2G|
A2E F2G|ABA c2d|cBA FG/A/B|A>^GF A3:|
e2e c2d|e=fe e2e|B2c d>BA |G>AF E2G|
A2E F2G|ABA c2d|cBA FG/A/B|A>^GF A3:|

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: Tootler
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 07:46 PM

I write tunes and I am very suspicious of this "the tune just popped into my head" notion. In my experience creating a tune that is complete is very rare. More often what you get is a basic musical idea that needs to be worked up. Sometimes I can complete a tune fairly quickly, but often I worry at it for weeks, even months or year before I am satisfied.

Other times I store a musical fragment away until I find some way of completing it or using it.

I think Edison's description of invention applies just as much to composing 5% inspiration, 95% perspiration.

I also see nothing wrong in using an existing melody to fit your words if that is what works for your song. It is an approach that has a long an honourable history. Most Broadside ballad writers specified an existing tune for their songs. Even the Star of County Down is acceptable as far as I am concerned <g>

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 08:00 PM

Tunes do just pop into my head. I suspect there are trains of them running through at most hours of the day. That is not to say they are the least bit sophisticated..more like little ditties...but I am of the so lazy school that I can't comprehend putting much time at all into it..much less effort. Gosh, that is what jobs are for. mg

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: GUEST,Christian
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 06:33 PM

I, myself, have only not used an original melody of mine once. I've been called a great songwriter, ranging from sad to a forty-era style. I've written some that are catchy, some that are dark, and some that are just...A regular song. I wouldn't call myself a great songwriter, though. Decent, at best (to me). But melodies are VERY hard to come up with for me. But it seems that I only can come up with good ones when I don't want to, they have to come with me. And that's how it should be, I think.

I think that you sit and think about it, you just end up with someone boring and plain. But when it comes to you out of nowhere, it usually ends up being pretty damn decent at least.

The tune I stole was from Tramps and Hawkers. But, hey, who HASN'T written a song to that tune?

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 08:11 PM

Great subject!

Every week or so, on "The Beat," a locally produced program on KUOW-FM (my local NPR affiliate), the host interviews a singer-songwriter, either local or passing through. The singer-songwriters invariably talk at length about the deep, personal meaning of the songs they write, and the host has them perform some of their songs during the program. Very introspective songs most of the time (i.e., read "navel-gazing"), and usually personal commentaries on their particular view of the human condition. These are songs that I have never heard before, of course. Often they are quite long, not because of the depth and breadth of the concepts they contain, but because what the writer considers to be the crucial line or lines are repeated many, many, many times. Even so, I sometimes have difficulty getting any kind of sense of what the song is about, except in the most general way.

The accompaniment is almost always a guitar, and although occasionally the person is fairly skilled (nice bits of finger-picking and/or chord sequences), it seems to be endemic among singer-songwriters that their instrumental skills are all too often pretty primitive, even if fairly smooth in execution. A typical accompaniment consists of a sort of six-string up-down "whack-a-whack-a-whack-a-whack-a" and harmonically, they tend to be sort of blah. The song is almost invariably in 4/4 time. I don't recall any at all in 3/4 or 6/8.

And the melody. It frequently seems to be little more than a chant or drone whose limited movement is rarely more than stepwise—up a note, down a note. Many long phrases sung on one note, with occasional movement up or down to an adjacent note, but rarely a jump of more than a third. The maximum range of the song usually stays within a fifth or a sixth. Rarely even as wide as an octave.

I'm convinced that the reason these melodies are very limited in scope is to keep well within the tessitura (comfortable range) of the singer-songwriter's own singing voice. It doesn't ask much of the singer's voice, and that often makes for a lack-luster performance of a lack-luster melody. Nor does it really engage the listener's ear. It's hard to perceive a distinctive melodic pattern from phrase to phrase, much less remember the tune half a minute after the song is finished. The truth is, there is darned little tune to remember.

These are songs that I doubt very seriously I will ever hear again. Nor will I have any sense of great loss because of this.

Okay, now that I've trashed singer-songwriters in general, this is not to say that they're all that way. They are rare, but there are some very good ones. Tom Paxton, Joni Mitchell, and Townes Van Zandt are three singer-songwriters that pop into mind who have displayed a real knack for good melodies. Some folks are fond of putting him down, but John Denver had an excellent ear for writing good, memorable tunes.

So what makes for a good, memorable melody? Not an exact science, but given the almost infinite variety possible, there are some common characteristics. Good melodies consist of a mixture of both adjacent scale steps and jumps, sometimes jumps of a fifth or sixth, occasionally as much as an octave. A good melody often challenges the singer's vocal abilities, and this applies, not just to operatic arias and art songs, but to folk songs and ballads as well. This judicious mixture is what makes a melody interesting. And memorable. And often has you humming or whistling a song after you've just heard it. And sometimes even later.

Lots of the more memorable songs start out with one or more leaps, like climbing up or down the notes of a chord. A common beginning is a leap of a fourth, from a low fifth degree of the scale up to the tonic, and may continue to climb scalewise after the jump. Think of the first four notes of "How Dry I Am" or "Down in the Valley" or "Plaisir d'amour" or the dozens or hundreds of songs that may be in different rhythms, but start with the same four notes. More often than not, an upward or downward leap of a fairly large interval (fourth, fifth, or larger) is followed by a movement of a step or more in the opposite direction, but generally not back to the original note right away. It moves away from the tonic (key note) and ambles around, teasing your ear, which wants to hear it move back to the tonic note, the most stable in the key. A good melody may hover around the tonic, hitting it briefly from time to time, but quickly skips away again.

Suspense. Even though we may not know consciously what's going on, we've all heard music (the music of whatever culture we grew up in) from infancy, and our brains have become wired to expect the music to do certain things. But a good composer or songwriter knows, either consciously or by intuition (whatever that is), that a good melody (or any musical sequence) consists of setting up a pattern that your ear expects it to follow or repeat. The next phrase or line leads the ear to expect the same thing to happen again, then it does something a bit different. It teases the ear—and the mind. It continues this way, sometimes adding a new but similar pattern, and does the same switcheroo with that. And then, in the end, just like a good story, it takes you back and resolves the suspense. The melody note goes back solidly to the tonic and the final chord change goes from a G7 to a C, and that's it. Wow! Tension relieved.

But some melodies don't do that. Some leave you hanging, giving you a sense that the song is unfinished. Think "I Know Where I'm Going." The melody ends on the fifth degree of the scale, and the final chord is a dominant 7th (G7 in the key of C). Drop the other shoe. It leaves you thinking, "Does she know where she's going?"

More often than not, I find that a song I want to learn, and generally wind up learning, has a good set of words (a good story or lyric), and the melody, or at least a piece of the melody, becomes an "ear-worm" after I've heard the song. (An "ear-worm" is one of those melodies that keeps playing in your head and you have trouble shutting it down. Sometimes just about drives you nuts! Commercial jingles are notorious for this, and that, of course, is the whole idea.) The melody keeps playing in my head and I find myself learning the words, singing the song, then picking up the guitar and working out an accompaniment. And another song goes into the notebook and onto my list. Once I've got the song down solid, I'm okay. Until the next song with a good set of lyrics and an "ear-worm" comes along.

A friend of mine gave me an excellent book that I'm really enjoying. It's This Is Your Brain on Music : The Science of a Human Obsession, by Daniel J. Levitin. Levitin is not some ivory-tower music professor. He was a rock musician, a sound engineer, and a record producer before he got into neuroscience. Early in the book, he gives you the basics of music theory, clearly and concisely, without getting bogged down in a lot of technical jargon (relatively painless way of learning the essential ideas). Throughout the book, he names pieces of music—some classic, but more often, rock and pop songs—as examples of what he's talking about. There is the occasional dry spot where he, of necessity, has to get a bit technical, but they only last for a paragraph or two. For the most part, it's a pretty easy read.

I've taken a lot of music theory classes in college, and I've also take a course in the physics of music, so I already knew a lot of this, but the neuroscience of music is an area that I knew was there, but never actually explored. What sneaky things do composers and arrangers do and why do they do them? And why do people respond to music the way they do? Why do you respond the way you do?

Levitin has a thorough discussion of this matter of setting up patterns and then doing the unexpected. He talks about melodies before this, but on page 115, he discusses melodies in particular. Among the examples he uses is a well-known melody that moves almost entirely stepwise, with very few jumps in it (contrary to the usual principle of mixing steps and jumps): the main theme of the "Ode to Joy" from the last movement of Beethoven's 9th Symphony (what person who has heard that doesn't remember and recognize it, even if he or she doesn't like classical music?). And then he explains why it works when other similar step-wise melodies don't.

Terrific book. I recommend it very highly to anyone involved with music, either as a performer or an avid listener.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: LukeKellylives (Chris)
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 09:06 PM

My voice only really suits up to a maximum of three octaves, normally only two. I've been told by two people on here already that I'm a good songwriter. But that's an opinion of two people. So I guess I can't really say anything.

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: Stewart
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 09:21 PM

Well said, Don. I was wondering how long it would take for you to jump into this discussion. I agree with you on this.

I was amused by your trashing of singer songwriters - right on!. But then, not all singer songwriters are that bad. One that comes to mind, whom I admire both for her interesting lyrics and her beautiful and creative melodies is Meg Davis. I was first attracted to her by her song Captain Jack and the Mermaid.

As to your analysis of good melodies, I think that surprise is an important part of a melody. Good melodies don't follow a predictable course, but often jump to an unexpected note that makes you take notice and say, "I didn't expect that, but it was nice and better than where I thought it was going." Also a good melody should have a range of pitch and at least a few large leaps between notes. Of course there are other good melodies that seem to refute all those ideas. That's why it is hard to make rules or say just what a good melody should be.

And that book you mention sounds quite interesting.

Thanks, Don.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: GUEST,ib48
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 03:58 AM

probably the daftest question of the year so far,of course its important,its what MAKES IT A SONG,NUMBNUTS

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 02:10 PM

Not daft at all, GUEST,ib48. Some so-called songs don't have much of anything that one could call a melody. But the person who writes them tries to present them as songs nevertheless. Thus, it's worth raising the question, especially for aspiring songwriters to consider seriously.

"Numbnuts?" Now, play nice.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: Tootler
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 06:22 PM

Don makes a number of very valid points about good melodies but you can follow the principles he sets out yet still keep your melody within a fairly limited range. Maybe a little more than the fifth or sixth he mentions but certainly within an octave or maybe a little more which keeps the melody within a range that most people can sing.

I suspect that some of the problem with the singer-songwriters that Don so roundly condemns is that for them, the words is all that really matters, so they give little thought to the melody. Many are really aspiring poets at heart, but presenting their efforts as songs means they have a potentially larger audience and they do not realise that for the poem to become effective as a song they need to put as much effort into the melody as to the words. In fact, it is possible to take an indifferent poem and raise it to another level by marrying it to an effective melody which also is sympathetic to the rhythm of the words.

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: Stewart
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 06:50 PM

A mediocre poem with a good melody can become a good song.

Can a good poem with at mediocre melody become a good song?

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: GUEST,hoot&fidget
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 07:58 PM

<<<
Rap?>>>>

Paul Simon's Graceland album? Just try humming some of the stuff on there and you'll quickly discover that the magic is in the arrangements. It sure ain't in the melody.

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: mg
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 12:34 AM

mediocre...maybe..barely..but I doubt it. Downright ugly, no.

An example..perhaps there are other tunes to it but I always wanted to hear the tune to my heart's in the highlands my heart is not here..I expected something beautiful...I finally heard it and have never been more disappointed in a tune. Such great words deserve a great melody and maybe I heard the wrong melody somehow.

Also, great tunes can not be saved by stupid words. Best example, Oleana. I would say it is one of the top ten melodies I like. But the stupid stupid words in English..perhaps they are better in Norwegian..and translated I believe by Pete Seeger...I have to throw the song away. Unless someone can find me the original Norwegian fishing tune the melody goes to. I mean the words. English or Norwegician. mg

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: bubblyrat
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 03:57 AM

In my experience, it is easy,should the need arise,to make up new words to go with a well-known & popular tune, but it is not even half so easy to put a well-known song to new music !! Yes,it can be done, but the tune used would be one that was already in the memory -banks .In the Middle Ages,for example,when many of what we think of as "traditional" songs were,in fact, a medium for communicating & recording information about important events,the tunes or melodies used were often taken from the Church,from hymn tunes that were already in the national consciousness. A lot of early American "folk music" draws heavily,in my opinion, from a pool of Irish,Scottish,English,German,French & other continental music for its tunes ( and rhythms ).For a modern example ?? ---- I play a tune called "Varsoviana" which I refer to as being a traditional Polish dance -tune. But for many people , especially Martin Wyndham-Reed,it is very much the song "The Babes In The Wood ".!! At the end of the day ,I guess to most people,it doesn"t really matter,although I really do think that it will be the tune that"s remembered long after the words are forgotten or,as is so common,distorted.

Subject: RE: Importance of Melody in Song
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 04:31 AM

"melodies used were often taken from the Church,from hymn tunes that were already in the national consciousness"

The reverse is more often the case. An awful lot of those tunes were already folk tunes before the church got hold of them.... what do you think people sang or hummed before Christianity took hold? Even W A Mozart stole Austrian folk dances and re-wrote them. I know of many folk tunes used for hymns, but very few hymn tunes that became folk songs. There ARE a lot of tunes in the national consciousness but you may find that they are fading away. I have several song books that have lyrics but no music - not because it was too expensive to put the tune in, but because the tunes were considered so common and popular as to not require writing out again. The lyrics have been remembered (only partially in some cases) but the tunes lost.*

As for putting old words to new music - define your use of new. Do you mean newly composed or 'the words of one song to the tune of another'? If the latter, then the contestants on 'I'm Sorry I haven't a Clue' do it almost every week they're on. I've done it myself and it can bring a whole new force and meaning to a previously hackneyed and trite verse. Try singing 'Rudolph the Red nosed reindeer' to the tune of 'Lovely Nancy'... turns a children's bit of fun into a soulful song of lonliness and suffering.

If you mean newly composed - people do it every day. I'm presently learning a piece written by a living composer, a Mr Paul Patterson. He celebrates his 60th birthday this year and we're singing his arrangement of a song that can be dated back to before Christianity and used in churches since the 2nd Century AD. The song is Kyrie Eleison - Lord, have mercy. Composers have been making new tunes to that particular piece for about 1800 years and as I said in my first post here, some are more memorable than others.

* In cases where songs have been partially lost, it's usually the chorus that is remembered. How many people in the street, when asked, would even know there was more to 'My old man said "follow the van"' than just the chorus? Could it be the build up verse (We had to move away, cos the rent we couldn't pay) isn't remembered because the tune of it is nowhere near as catchy and singable as the chorus?

LTS