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who's the fool now

DigiTrad:
WHO'S THE FOOL NOW or MARTIN SAID TO HIS MAN


Related threads:
Martin Said to His Man (109)
Lyr Req: I know a Milk maid - Napoleonic folk song (10)
martin said to his man couplets (14)
Lyr Req: Martin Said to His Man (35)


paw 11 Feb 07 - 04:44 PM
Bainbo 11 Feb 07 - 04:48 PM
Bainbo 11 Feb 07 - 04:55 PM
Richard Bridge 11 Feb 07 - 04:56 PM
Geordie-Peorgie 11 Feb 07 - 05:15 PM
The Fooles Troupe 11 Feb 07 - 05:22 PM
dick greenhaus 11 Feb 07 - 05:25 PM
Sorcha 11 Feb 07 - 05:36 PM
Lighter 11 Feb 07 - 06:11 PM
The Fooles Troupe 11 Feb 07 - 06:18 PM
Bainbo 11 Feb 07 - 06:20 PM
Crane Driver 11 Feb 07 - 06:31 PM
Bernard 11 Feb 07 - 06:40 PM
Charley Noble 11 Feb 07 - 06:58 PM
DADGBE 11 Feb 07 - 10:28 PM
Malcolm Douglas 12 Feb 07 - 12:59 AM
Les in Chorlton 12 Feb 07 - 03:37 AM
jimlad9 12 Feb 07 - 04:09 AM
Scrump 12 Feb 07 - 04:17 AM
jimlad9 12 Feb 07 - 04:24 AM
Banjo-Flower 13 Feb 07 - 03:12 AM
The Fooles Troupe 13 Feb 07 - 04:53 AM
GUEST,Annie 13 Feb 07 - 06:57 PM
Malcolm Douglas 13 Feb 07 - 07:16 PM
Charley Noble 13 Feb 07 - 10:20 PM
Effsee 13 Feb 07 - 10:27 PM
Dead Horse 14 Feb 07 - 06:13 AM
Dead Horse 14 Feb 07 - 06:15 AM
The Fooles Troupe 14 Feb 07 - 07:04 AM
Charley Noble 14 Feb 07 - 08:48 AM
GUEST,KCD 23 Nov 09 - 09:10 AM
scouse 23 Nov 09 - 06:49 PM
The Villan 23 Nov 09 - 07:19 PM
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Subject: who's the fool now
From: paw
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 04:44 PM

hello any idea about the meaning of " clouting off st peters shoon?"
in todays english?


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: Bainbo
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 04:48 PM

I think it's "clouting of St Peter's shoon".

Clout = cloth. In the North of England we use a "dish clout". So clouting would be to use a cloth - i.e, to clean or polish.

Shoon = shoes.

So: "Cleaning St Peter's shoes."
Or that's the way I've always understood it, but tell me if I'm wrong.


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: Bainbo
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 04:55 PM

Incidentally, loads of people must have made up their own verses to this.

A much-missed member of our club used to sing:
"I saw Paisley kiss the Pope / Saw the Pope have a grope."

and

"I saw [insert name of local tightwad] buy a round / Saw [insert name of local drunkard] turn it down"

Any others?


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 04:56 PM

I have frequently heard this verse sung as "Polishing St. Peter's Shoon"


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 05:15 PM

Aah've aalwez sung it as 'Clouting up St Peter's Shoon'

As far as aah can remember (as a lad on Tyneside) 'clouting' was 'cobbling' or mending - so the man in the moon was mending St Peter's shoes - But aahh like the polishing idea an' aall

This might aall be a load of cobblers, mind!


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 05:22 PM

So - someone else wants the job?


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 05:25 PM

Well there's the line in "Leather Bottel"....

"And when the leather bottel's grown old
And can good liquor no longer hold
Out of it's side you can make a clout
To men your shoes when they wear out..."

which suggests that "clouting" meant mending or repairing.


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 05:36 PM

Breech clout--front apron for men
Clout--hit
Clout--cloth
Clout--cloud


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: Lighter
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 06:11 PM

To "clout" used to mean to "patch with leather," among other things. I looked it up.


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 06:18 PM

I would like to say 'St Peter wears out his soles', but I may not get to the door in time...


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: Bainbo
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 06:20 PM

Aaah ... soles.


Opinion seems to be swinging towards the "patching up" rather than the "polishing". I'm prepared to stand corrected. It's still fun to sing.


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: Crane Driver
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 06:31 PM

The line has 'the man in the moon' clouting of (or whatever) St Peter's shoon - the explanation I've heard is that the Man in the Moon stands for Henry VIII, (because of his big, round face) so the verse refers to him making up with the Pope, something unlikely to be witnessed. The song occurs in Thomas Ravenscroft's collection 'Deuteromelia', published around 1610, but containing old drinking songs from the previous century.

Andrew


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: Bernard
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 06:40 PM

I learned it as 'Clouting out St. Peter's Shoen', which is a fairly commonplace Lanky expression meaning 'polishing'. A 'clout' is a cloth, or sometimes clothing - 'Ne'er cast a clout till the May is out'...

I, too. understood the reference to 'The man in the Moon' as being Henry VIII.

The song is 'living', though, because I know a few modern-ish verses which have been added - such as the snail taking the mail faster than British Rail...!!


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 06:58 PM

And then there are the Jurassic verses, going waaaay back, such as:

I saw a Stegosaurus stagger through the door...
Have one glass and crash through the floor...

I saw a Brontosaurus with a thesaurus...
Searching for the ultimate chorus...

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: DADGBE
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 10:28 PM

Och, Charley - Wha's foo' nu?!


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:59 AM

The song was entered in the Register of the Stationers' Company in 1588, licensed to Thomas Orwyn. There is no particular reason to think it any older than that. The alleged reference to Henry VIII is not mentioned by Chappell and is likely a modern myth.

Ravenscroft's text has "Clouting of". The original meaning would almost certainly be either patching or, most likely, repairing or reinforcing the soles with nails (clout-nails, in fact).

Earlier discussions and DT examples can be found via the search engine. Note, though, that the information given with the DT file WHO'S THE FOOL NOW or MARTIN SAID TO HIS MAN is misleading; the text is not the one printed by Chappell, but a modern collation of verses from various sources including Ravenscroft, some altered to fit.


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 03:37 AM

Is Chappell the oldest source then?


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: jimlad9
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 04:09 AM

A slight diversion from the main thread I know but Bainbo reminded me of a program about a million years ago on Radio Eirrann about children talking . A 7 year old girl said that her and her daddy were talking about 'Arseholes'. Nuns all over Ireland fainted.the childs mother had a heart attack 40,000 people called into complain in the 15 seconds before the compere asked the little princess to explain.

"well" she said " me daddy said that if we walked on our heels we would save OUR SOLES"


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 04:17 AM

I always thought 'clouting' in this case referred to clout nails, i.e. the man in the moon was mending St Peter's shoes.

I've heard another version with "Hammering" instead of "clouting". Either way, I've always associated it with cobblers. I'll rephrase that...

As it's meant to be a bit of nonsense, I guess it doesn't matter too much how you interpret it, really though.


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: jimlad9
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 04:24 AM

I have just looked up the words in digitrad and seen it dated back to 1588..........what time system were they working to then?.

Groan if you want to!


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 03:12 AM

So who was Martin?

Gerry


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 04:53 AM

He's not here any more..... :-P


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: GUEST,Annie
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 06:57 PM

As a Barnsley lass, I'm with Bainbo and Bernard - clout = cloth as in 'dish-clout' and 'never cast a clout till May's out'. So I reckon its cleaning/polishing ie with a cloth/clout of St Peter's shoes. Guess that makes your idea a 'load of old cobblers' then Georgie Porgie but ne'er mind lad I'll buy thee a pint next time I si thee even if its a flat headed Southern one!


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 07:16 PM

You need to consider what the term meant in Ravenscroft's time, not what it might have meant if it had been written last week in Barnsley or Burnley.

No, Les, Chappell isn't the oldest source. That is Ravenscroft; see the other, earlier discussions on the song (links above) for more info. Chappell reprinted the long-forgotten song in the mid 19th century; it remained mostly forgotten until introduced to the folk clubs in (I think) the 1960s. Meanwhile, similar songs turned up occasionally in tradition; it is from one of these, for instance, that the famous bull-milking verse was borrowed.


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 10:20 PM

Does anyone know where the dragonfly verse come from (I think I do but I don't know for sure):

I saw a butterfly flutter by,
Fie, man, fie!
I saw a butterfly flutter by,
Who's the fool now?
I saw a butterfly flutter by,
Saw a dragonfly drink a flagon dry;
Thou has well drunken and who's the fool now!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: Effsee
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 10:27 PM

'never cast a clout till May's out'... actually the reference is "Mey", the flower of the Blackthorn, Once it's in bloom it's safe to assume the weather's getting warmer.


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: Dead Horse
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 06:13 AM

I am used to, and much prefer, taking turns singing each verse.
Once the old standards are gotten out of the way, we start to make up our own. This is where the fun starts :-)
The verses can go on for absolutely ages, but it doesnt get boring as singers "bounce off" eachother, replying to insults delivered by previous singer etc. And the groans, guffaws and giggles make it all worthwhile. It saddens me somewhat to hear Martin Said done solo and without "added" verses.
Hell, it aint hard fer gawds sake...
Anyone can sing this song
Fie, man, fie.
Anyone can sing this song
Who's the fool now?
Anyone can sing this song
Ya make it up as ya go along.
Thou hast well drunken, man.
Who's the fool now?


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: Dead Horse
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 06:15 AM

I know the words to EVERY song
Fie man, fie.
I KNOW the words to every song.
Who's a fool now?
I know THE words to every song
But sometimes they come out incorrect.
Thou hast well drunken, man.
Who's the fool now?


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:04 AM

The Fooles Troupe may have to leave here - looks like there's far too much competition....


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 08:48 AM

Deadhorse-

I know the words to EVERY verse
Fie man, fie.
I KNOW the words to every verse.
Who's a fool now?
I know THE words to every verse
But after YOURS there are no worse.
Thou hast well drunken, man.
Who's the fool now?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: GUEST,KCD
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 09:10 AM

it's "closing off some peterschoon" (or may be Pieterschoon)- it's an archaic kind of lantern; the man in the moon was turning off some lights- get it?


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: scouse
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 06:49 PM

An of there's "Never cast a Clout till may is out." !!! "Nuff Said."

As Aye,

Phil.


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Subject: RE: who's the fool now
From: The Villan
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 07:19 PM

oive had a bit of clout last noight

was a common expression for having had sex the night before, in Birmingham England and said by a male rather than a female, who was boasting about his success.

The slang expression Clout referred to a Vagina.


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