Stage Hogs

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 05:05 PM

"probably caused less grief than being a serial killer or something."


... depends on who...

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 03:10 PM

I really wish I'd been to see them. I saw them advertised, but you know how it is - some how you don't make the effort.

to be honest I have a fair amount of sympathy with tuning problems. sometimes the pesky bloody things don't do what you want them to.

In retrospect I think I wasted most of my life devising ways of playing acoustic instruments loud enough for people to hear them, who couldn't really be arsed to listen. Still you gotta do something to pass the time - probably caused less grief than being a serial killer or something.

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 06:20 PM

A dozen band members (with various instruments) = lots of various orifices...

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Alan Day
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 05:49 PM

"Rosbif" WLD
French Traditional Dance Music from Central France mainly.
I am now with GIGCB, add Breton and English to the above music and add about ten extra band members (on a good day)and that's what I am up to now.
Al

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 02:33 PM

what band was that, Al?

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Alan Day
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 12:45 PM

Some players of course get up to all sorts of tricks due to nerves.Tuning for example,seems to me something certain players do to get used to being on stage and will de tune their Guitar just to tune it back in again. One advantage of playing the concertina.
I did play in a band with two Hurdy Gurdy players one doubling up on French Bagpipes.What a nightmare tuning job that was.
Al

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 11:07 AM

That's not what I would have called him Al.

No, I just thought he was rather up his own (fill in your own orifice here).

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Alan Day
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 11:04 AM

Is he a Manicurist by trade Scrump?
Al

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:31 AM

The Villan is an Aston Villa fan, not a bad guy type villain

Yes, we all have our cross to bear :D

Scrump, that's the kind of flangehead I would gladly walk out on

The only reason I didn't was I would have lost my good vantage point for the main act that I really wanted to see (this guy was just a floor singer or support act).

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:31 AM

LOL

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:12 AM

I don't think Una would thank you for a starring role in these fantasies - just cut it out - think about Aston Villa...or something.

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 02:49 AM

They know you Al and thats big in Market Rasen.

Poor Una, she must be dead scared. Maybe she thinks you are George Joseph Smith and she doesn't want to get drowned in the bath whilst having a Brazilian :-)

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 09:16 PM

PS Would you say I'm big in Market Rasen?

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 09:15 PM

Brazilian Les!

Una out of No Fixed Abode brought me three lots of Whittards Coffee for my birthday, a couple of weeks ago - one of them being Brazilian. So I offered to do her a Brazilian next time she came round - for some reason she has stayed away!

I see you more as a George Clooney man, Les. centre parting and lots of brylcream, and essentially and a certain rakish charm.

Or maybe Clark Gable, just hint of dashing 'tache each side of Old glory - and people would would say ....there is something of Rhet Butler about that man's deep south.

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: kendall
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:15 PM

Scrump, that's the kind of flangehead I would gladly walk out on.

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:03 PM

"You have to put your foot down" - no matter whose toes it is.

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: The Barden of England
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 06:22 PM

About 4 years back I was MC at a really good festival on the south coast. The festival consisted of some excellent local, and not so local artists, but the main atraction for the night was a well known and especially nice duo. I was forced on more than one occasion during that evening to ensure that no one pushed the limits. I was severe, but - - - I made sure that anybody who tried it on knew what was thought of them. You have to put your foot down - no matter who it is.
John Barden

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Alan Day
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 06:03 PM

Ms Lemon,Do you ever listen to the words ? I must admit to a total block out,my mind starts wandering off to other things and then I come back to it."Oh No, he is still singing".When us poor musicians get a turn it's normally threee times through the tune and then thanks very much. Then on to someone else doing a forty verse song,normally starting "It was a bright May Morning when I saw a pretty young Maid.Who is old and pushing a Zimmer Frame at the verse forty.Anyone want the words?
Al

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 05:53 PM

LOL Thanks for that WeeLittleDrummer :-) Howvever some may think I am a Villain.

I have to say Big Al Whittle that you have done me proud over the time and won quite a few friends at Faldingworth. Nice helpfull bloke is Big Al and does a very good act. Time I got a Brazil.

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 04:44 PM

It's the songs with 32 verses that get my goat.

sal
www.myspace.com/shotdogs

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 04:09 PM

The Villan is an Aston Villa fan, not a bad guy type villain.

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: GUEST,Wolly Woo
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 11:05 AM

That is just unbelievable Scrump.
Who do these artists think they are ?
Thanks Villain the name comes from our little bitch Folly who became Wolly and then Wolly Woo.I thought it worth adopting to have a little bitch about things on this site.
This has been an eye opener to me,I never realised that this was such a bad problem and not isolated like I thought when starting this discussion.
Wolly

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 08:34 AM

How about the one who waits until he gets on stage to start tuning?

That's not so bad, it's the one who waits until he gets on stage, gets his guitar out of the case, and then starts tuning, that p*sses me off :-)

Not long ago I saw a guy get his guitar out of the case, tune up (using an electronic tuner), which took ages, start playing, decide his fingernails needed filing, got the file out of a bag, filed his nails, then started from the beginning again. All in front of the waiting audience. I was sorely tempted to go to the bar during the rest of his act...

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: kendall
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:46 AM

It all boils down to this: Musicians tend to get lost in what they are doing, so you need an MC or a stage manager with the balls to keep to the schedule. After all, that's his/her job.

How about the one who waits until he gets on stage to start tuning?

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:40 AM

>>I have found many of these replies very constructive and if only some of the artists we have talked about and folk organisers read these and take note,there would be a great improvement in the professional approach to staged events.<<

Well said there Wolly Woo (I like that name) :-)

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: GUEST,Wolly Woo
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:31 AM

I have found many of these replies very constructive and if only some of the artists we have talked about and folk organisers read these and take note,there would be a great improvement in the professional approach to staged events.Many organisers are completely unaware of any problems like the Piano Accordion pair who are there for themselves and their own promotion and have no interest in anyone else.When their club folds they will be looking to blame others for it's demise rather than taking a look at themselves.
Wolly

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 05:28 AM

Bear in mind that sometimes it is just one person in a band or duo who requires a long sound-check with every combination checked - perhaps because they can't get their act together without this comforting routine. It can be very difficult for the other/s who get tarred with the same brush, while being unable to do much to speed things up (apart from leave the band or sack the slowcoach)!

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Anne Lister
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 03:57 AM

I have no problem with booked acts who are multi-instrumentalists who then use their talents to the full. As long as they stick to their time on the bill! The problem is generally with the floor singers or people on an open mic night who come for a 10 or 15 minute set with all of their instruments and expect to use them all. I've seen bands show up for showcase spots (not at AFO!) with more instruments than the booked guest band.   I'm always puzzled about what kind of impression they think they've made when they overrun their allotted time. I remember working as a duo in the past and consciously keeping any short spot simple and direct, with minimal fuss.
But oh, yes, the sound check problem! I've lost count of how often my own sound check has been cut out completely or I've found myself sound checking in front of the incoming audience because of a band who had to check every combination of instrument and voice and threw in a bit of rehearsal as well ....

Anne

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Effsee
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 10:14 PM

The biggest problems I've ever had (several times) is with Vin Garbutt....the audience doen't want him to stop (neither do I)... but the mangement gotta close sometime!

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Songster Bob
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 09:44 PM

I have been told (not that I really bvelieve it) that my introductions to songs are the reason my sets run so long. I, too, play a number of instruments, but in a situation where time may be fleeting, I don't take 'em all onstage, and don't use too many tunings (I don't do many guitar tunings, though I have been known to do a set exclusively on banjo, with each tune or song separated from its predecessor by one or two frets on one string).

Examples of such tunings (with a different song or tune for each):

gDGBD --> gCGBD --> gCGCD --> gDGCD --> gDGBD --> gDGAD --> f#DGAD --> f#DF#AD, etc.

Now, this doesn't take much time between songs to retune, one note on one string at a time. But it does take planning.

For some reason, mostly, in fact, at NEFFA, we end up with one song more than we can fit into the set, no matter how few songs we plan to do. That is discouraging.

But at least we don't do the prima donna thing.

Bob

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: GUEST,Curtain peeper
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 09:00 PM

I've been to a club in farnborough, kent where the resident accordian players hog most of the evening - even when there's a guest booked. They do several numbers together, then a couple each as solo acts - open the night, close the first half, open the second half then close the night - even at singers nights not everyone can get on. I wouldn;t mid but they play the same old rubbish and tell the same old (bad) jokes every week. A shame because there have been some really good acts that never got heard - these same culprits spend the time they are not playing, in the other bar, showing no interest at all in what other people are singing/playing.

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 08:44 PM

George said " they "gave away" almost 15 minutes between them" - hey, we did it on purpose George, so we could hear more of you!! (actually I finished only slightly early, but we did start late, so I only played only 3 instead of the 5 I'd planned).

The worst case I've known was half of a well known duo (not us) who arrived late for a biggish festival, and his band arrived even later, and they then proceeded to rehearse all though everyone else's sound check, so we only has a silent line check, and not even a word of an apology. :-(

Mea culpa re too many instruments, but if that's the set you're doing, those are the instruments you need. But to minimse hassle, both Tom and I have pre-set minimixers on stage, so we send pre-prepared mixes to the desk, and the tuning is also scheduled into the act, so he tunes while I ramble, and vice versa.

But even so we still overrrun occasionally. The problem is that some MCs run to a tight schedule, while others are happy to be flexible, having built a bit of lee-way into the timesheet.

We have a clock on the floor between us, but we still look to the MC to give us the final finger - because even if you start late but you can sometimes finish later still - if that's ok with the boss. And if it's not we'll gladly finish early.

Just as long as you can yet in that last 'CD-shifting' song!

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 08:15 PM

"how would you time all of your sets?"

Well, do each song/medley one after the other.

Watch clock - a second hand might help a bit, but not really necessary.

Write down on a piece of paper the approx time (unlike making salad, this is not rocket science!) for each song.

Lose piece of paper...

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: LukeKellylives (Chris)
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 08:04 PM

As far as the tuning bit goes, that wouldn't be a problem for me. I always keep mine in Open G. Keeps the songs a little less boring when you do a different improv-style break during the set intermissions for songs (instrumental verses). I tend to only put it in standard if the singing of the song requires it, and even then I usually just switch to my mandolin. My twelve-string goes out of tune, with no exaggeration, in less than a minute. It's too much of a hassle to use it.

But, for future reference, how would you time all of your sets? Just record them individually and add that? That'd take up a lot of time...Although, I guess it's good practice.

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 06:20 PM

I really really hate organisers who organise an all-day session for electric bands, every band with a 45 minute slot and a 5 minute for changeover, and line check, mix on the fly during the first song BAH!

That's when I'm doing the sound.

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Bernard
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 02:35 PM

Yes, the tunings thing irritates me, too... but some people seem to take forever finding out which string is out of tune, and de-tuning all the others to it!! ;o>

I tune entirely by ear myself, always have done, but I reckon I'm quicker than average - and lots of people agree with that opinion, as they hand their instruments over to me for tuning at a singaround!! Hah! I should charge them!

when I do a gig (two forty minute sets or more) I have loads of instruments with me - three or four guitars (12 string, six string standard, six string DADGAD and a classical), banjo, mandolin, accordion, English and Anglo concertinas. I don't necessarily use them all, because I tend to work 'on the fly' with a 'short list' rather than a 'set list'.

However, if I'm doing a 15-20 minute support, I'll usually just take a guitar and the accordion - or even do an unaccompanied set.

On the rare occasions I use PA, I don't plug any instruments in, but use a 'stereo pair' of microphones to cover the instruments, and a vocal mic. Sound men find this a doddle to set up and work with (really quick sound check!), and for me it's as easy as doing the gig unamplified. My day job is Sound Engineer...!

On the other hand, if it's a Ceilidh, I have a Microvox/Sennheiser radio system for my accordion... but that's a different thing altogether. It allows me to wander around and listen to the sound balance in different parts of the room - and spooks the audience!!

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Midchuck
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 02:14 PM

what is it with local musicians anyway?

I don't think the pros do this kind of thing. Well, most of them don't. The ones who are clean and sober, anyway.

I think it's more often amateurs for whom their 15 minutes is their shot at stardom, or so they see it. Which makes it impossible for them to think of anyone else.

I've been there, and I'm very much afraid I've done that.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: tarheel
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 02:04 PM

we always got our alloted time,but the band to follow us would stand in the wings pickin' and playin' so dang loud ,that we could hardly hear our own music!
i once stopped our song right in the middle of our number and walked over to the group standing in the wings and politely said,"hey fellows,we are trying to do a show here and we would appreciate some Professional Courtesy here!"
dang,they looked at me as if they could kill me!
what is it with local musicians anyway?
Tar...

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 11:59 AM

Quality of instrument can be a factor too. I can step off a plane and into a club and find my guitar, in tune with itself. A little more time in the room and it's bang on.

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 11:54 AM

Yes, I can also find it a bit annoying when people change guitar tunings often during their act, particularly when they do it between every number, e.g. tuning from standard to DADGAD and back to standard for the next song. I wonder why they don't organise the set better, so they can stay in the same tuning for a few songs, and then change. Better to have 2 guitars on hand if you use 2 different tunings a lot.

And Anne's point about lots of instruments is a good one - I've seen people do a 30-min support slot and almost use a different instrument for every song. It's as if they're showing off how many instruments they can play. For longer sets, it's find to use different instruments, to provide variety, but in a short set it's better (IMO) to stick to one or two.

(Talking of tuning, the other extreme is the guitarist who doesn't bother to re-tune at all, so I find myself cringing at how out of tune it is after the first few songs.)

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Bee
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 11:47 AM

I've seen this happen mostly at benefits. It's either the old fella who plays and sings fine except when drunk, which is usually, when he always goes overtime, or more often it's the auction, held in the middle of the sets, where the MC/auctioneer decides to auction stuff off one pie at a time instead of doing them in pairs or whatever works, or he decides to spend far too much time being funny. Then the second half performers have to rush and reduce their sets, and still it runs overtime.

I've also seen MCs, having made performers wait forever, not bother in time to send someone looking for the next performer, who's nipped downstairs for a beer thinking he's going to have to wait another half hour.

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Anne Lister
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 11:42 AM

Re-tuning a guitar will do it almost every time, as will the band who swap instruments and need to check their tuning as well. I've seen bands who know they're only going to do a 20 minute spot at most still turning up with a zillion instruments which they insist on using, thus again cutting down time for other performers. I think a few masterclasses in "less is more" would probably be a good plan - it's rare to find established performers hogging the stage, in my experience.
And then the organiser/MC who burble on about forthcoming atractions and then remember the extended raffle which needs to be drawn...all of which is fine unless the pub has a definite closing time for the club room (or unless most of the audience need to rush off early).

Anne

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 11:31 AM

As long as the star guest is willing to extend the set - some are not, but most are, thankfully :-)

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Alan Day
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 11:17 AM

Certainly George to give the star guest another ten minutes at the end of a concert is not only a dream for the compare, but also for the audience.
Al

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 10:25 AM

I know someone exactly like the organiser Bonnie mentions - though I am sure it is a different person, as I don't think Bonnie has performed at his club.

I'll make an allowance for an overrun of 2-3 minutes (i.e. less than the duration of a normal song) due to slight misjudgement. Anything above that is intentional in my book and inexcusable; in a professional context, it is also unforgiveable.

Having said that, I have found most performers to be very considerate in this respect, and most will err on the side of caution. A typical such example was at the Association of Festival Organisers conference recently, during the FolkWise showcase concert: There were 5 performers, each allotted 15 minutes, with an extra 5 mins for the changeover. The first three performers were so careful to avoid overrunning that they "gave away" almost 15 minutes between them - and the organiser then had to ask me to extend my spot a little, or people coming to see the subsequent acts would have found that they arrived too late!.

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 10:09 AM

"...In Sir Patrick Spens I clean forgot the 42nd verse, so I sang the 27th, twice as loud and in reverse, and no one noticed...."

I don't mind that, it's when they get to the 83rd verse and say "Oops, I sang those last two verses in the wrong order. Sorry - I'd better start from the beginning again..."

:D

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Midchuck
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 09:54 AM

A variation on the problem is when you get put in a "workshop" format with several players or groups on stage, doing numbers in rotation, and one participant does all 100-verse ballads and takes vastly more than his/her/their share of the total time.

"...In Sir Patrick Spens I clean forgot the 42nd verse, so I sang the 27th, twice as loud and in reverse, and no one noticed...."

Peter.

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 09:48 AM

Aye WLD, that I have! I can't be the only one though - I expect others will recognise the identifying characteristics of the greater spotted stage hog :-)

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 09:35 AM

Poor Scrump...! Sounds like you've sat through that scenario a few times.

Subject: RE: Stage Hogs
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 09:18 AM

I agree that alloting a time limit is better than giving artists a number of songs. One singer I know, when given the 'finger' by the MC(ooerr, missus!) always opts for a 78-verse Child ballad or similar :(

Fortunately, I think the MC realises this and probably signals earlier than usual :)

At singarounds, I've noticed this same guy always does really long songs too - it's especially annoying near the end of the session when I'm looking at my watch and wondering if I'll get another turn in. And he always gives a long preamble too, then starts the song, makes a mistake, and goes back to the beginning, while I'm inwardly seething

>:-(