Folk Music should be fun

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: Flash Company
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 05:39 AM

Remember seeing Dick Gaughan at The Garrick in Altrincham on a night that Scotland were playing Brazil. In the bar before the show started he said to us 'Of course, if Scotland lose I'm going to sing laments all night!'
They did, He did!

FC

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:19 PM

I don't remember writing that!! Good point though!

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 11:54 AM

Interesting views on many facets highlighted by initial question, ranging from dogs to a pretty vivid example of Catharsis. I tend to agree with those who, while pointing out the kinds of effort involved not only in setting up major events but in simply learning songs and considering how best to put them across, in line with the words and melody, also mention their enjoyment, or sense of fulfilment, in doing all this. But my initial thoughts come close to what the GUEST, "Shimrod", writes: I wonder if anyone, anywhere, would make such a simplistic contention that "Opera should be fun", or "Symphonies should be fun"? That is, there seems to be an unspoken convention among some that "Folk" music and song just isn't as "Serious" as the stuff that costs loads to put on, loads of rehearsal time, loads of Government subsidy,,,,,

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 11:10 AM

LOL :D

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 09:31 AM

Hey! I have an idea...after we finally finish defining "fun" we can move on to the main event...defining "folk music!" That should occupy us until the second coming of Woody Guthrie.

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 09:24 AM

Perhaps we could say that whilst the actual creation of folk music is often not very fun at all, folk music should be 'fun' from an aesthetic point of view. I can take the original post in that sense personally, I feel a great many musicians are more interested in making political points or trying to live up to some self image of preserving their culture than making music for people to enjoy. It's a shame as the music is often enjoyable despite this.

I admit I occasionally find myself wondering why the hell I put myself through the hassle I sometimes get. Basically I do find it fun, but it does take hard work as well. Practicing songs and tunes, learning words, etc., travelling a long way to do gigs for little or no money (allowing for expenses), on a Saturday night, when the weather's bad, sometimes to an audience that doesn't seem to want to listen anyway...

But if you enjoy doing something, I guess you enjoy even the hard work aspects. The occasional pat on the back or appreciative response from audiences makes it all worthwhile. And I know I can walk away from it any time, but I also know I don't want to because I'd miss it.

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 09:10 AM

What about the songs?! Surely some songs are meant to be sung with humour and others aren't? It works to sing Ramblin' Sailor in a comedic style, drinking songs like the Barley Mow should be fun, but I'm sure singing death ballads like Maria Marten in anything but a tragic way would be highly unsuccessful.

I think all too often egos get in the way of performing a good song in the way it should be done because so many people neglect to respect the song that they sing; they forget that it is an old song that does not belong to them anymore than the next man and that ultimately, while they have to make the song their own, they should conform to certain unwritten rules regarding the way they treat the material.

Nick

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: Jim Lad
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 09:58 PM

"Life will, eventually, be tragic---for everyone.".. Oh???

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 09:39 PM

Basic to life is recognizing that it is tragic. Tragedy is at the root of all great art. Comedy is often called
"comic relief"; if it IS relief, then it is relief "FROM" something. And that "something" is the bedrock TRAGEDY.

Folk songs, to the extent that they artistically portray life as it was and is, ought to be appreciated as the sad documents of other times and peoples that they truly are.



We need both though. They both make us see the value inherent, therein, in each.------Life will, eventually, be tragic---for everyone. So get all the fun you can even while taking serious note of this lovely reality of things. Learn to laugh at Bush, Iraq, cancer----hell, all of it. And even the shit will turn to fun!

Love,

Art

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: Jim Lad
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 09:19 PM

Skipy: "...but when you have no talent..." Oh, but you do. Thank you.

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: GUEST,StevenPiper
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 09:15 PM

Perhaps we could say that whilst the actual creation of folk music is often not very fun at all, folk music should be 'fun' from an aesthetic point of view. I can take the original post in that sense personally, I feel a great many musicians are more interested in making political points or trying to live up to some self image of preserving their culture than making music for people to enjoy. It's a shame as the music is often enjoyable despite this.

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: GUEST,Skipy
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:33 PM

Folk music is really hard work when you have spent the last 35 years of your life organising folk concerts & folk club, festivals etc,. there is no way that it can be described "as fun" it has been a long hard hawl. There are moments when you feel "we did that, it was worth doing" but it is bloody hard work. If you believe in the music, then it is worth doing, & we do, but when you have no talent so you spend a weekend providing venues that you can't go into, it's hell.
There are so many things that go on "behind the scenes" that make an organisers life hell, while, hopefully all around your are happy.
Skipy

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: Tootler
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:21 PM

Some interesting comments.

I became involved in playing folk music about 3 years ago and what struck me about many folk musicians was their infectious enthusiasm for their music, something I had not met to the same degree in over 15 years playing recorder in a more classical environment. Yes recorder players love their instrument and the music commonly associated with it, but it is not displayed in such an overt way.

When the lady I mentioned at the top of the thread approached me, what she said somehow struck a chord. She had been to a couple of folk clubs and had encountered singers who fitted bublyrat's category of "very serious,finger-in-ear EFDSS- type bastions of tradition". She felt these people took themselves too seriously and didn't seem to be enjoying themselves and her comment was something to the effect "I thought folk music was supposed to be fun"

This made me think back over the past three years and I realised I have learnt a lot, my playing has been re-energised and I have been enjoying myself enormously in the process.

In short, I have been having fun!

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 03:17 PM

Hmm. I wonder what all this debate about 'fun' really means. I can't help thinking this is a very old discussion and everyone seems to have an axe to grind. I love listening to a serious ballad sung well by someone who has taken the trouble to learn their craft but I have also encountered (and still do) a lot of 'serious' singers who aren't nearly as good as they think they are.

At the same time, I couldn't help suppressing a giggle (an unintentional one) when Mike Harding, on the recent 'Folk Britannia' BBC programme, as good as said that folkie comedians like him had saved the folk clubs from the over-serious traddies. What no-one seems to have mentioned was that apart from Noel Murphy, most of the folk comics were neither good musicians nor very funny - with Harding a case in point.

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: Declan
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 01:46 PM

Yes we are.

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: Jim Lad
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 12:30 PM

R2

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 11:38 AM

We're never all agreed.

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: Jim Lad
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 11:30 AM

So, we're all agreed then!

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 11:12 AM

Folk music IS fun.

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 05:41 AM

Festivals like Sidmouth afford one the opportunity to sample and experience the whole range of emotions. For example ,one could listen to George Papadopoulous singing some of his wonderful,deep,thought- provoking compositions,then go to the Ham,possibly and sit through an achingly,side-splitting Sid Kipper concert. This tends not to happen in clubs,in my experience, as they are either very serious,finger -in -ear EFDSS- type bastions of tradition, or else somewhere that features an'in- your- face',all-girl,lesbian ,punk-type electric band, as I saw once in Bracknell---and very good they were ,too !! ( if you like that sort of thing !! )

(Papadopoulous?! That's a new one on me!)

Not just festivals; there are plenty of clubs around where you can see such variety - not necessarily in the same week, but they offer a varied programme where you could see the likes of George or Sid, or Vin, or Martin Carthy, or just about anybody, maybe on consecutive weeks - not sure about the lesbian punk band, but I've seen acts in some of these clubs not too far away from that :-)

I prefer this type of club myself, because I like a wide range of music and believe variety is the spice of life, etc., etc.

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: Hawker
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 05:01 AM

Ahh, Little Hawk, I didn't say I I didn't take it seriously, but I do have fun! I took up archery a number of years ago as a form of relaxation, and really enjoyed it, after a number of years the club I was at changed, it became intensely competitive and you got looked down on if you didnt appear to be taking it seriously, for me, like Foolestroupe said, the only competition that mattered was me, as long as I was happy with what I did and saw an improvement in my persoinal best. I had no need to be better than anyone else. The enjoyment of this constant pressure to beat other people and try and get into the county team took all the enjoyment out of the hobby for me and I eventually left the club. I now shoot my longbow at home for my own enjoyment and am much happier.
Likewise in folk music, I am learning instruments and my aim with playing is just to be a better player, I sing, and try hard to make that an enjoyable experience for those around me. I write songs and share them, I am not precious about them. If people like them I am happy, if they don't I stop singing them. To me, the greatest compliment is someone wanting to sing one of my songs. I wrote them to be sung and the joy is in the sharing. That's what I call fun.
I'll admit too that I have had fun running half naked round festival camp sites shreiking with laughter at unearthly hours of the night/morning, which may not have been fun to those trying to sleep, now I am a little older I realise the folly of my ways and humbly apologise to all those I woke................but it was fun!
Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 04:58 AM

There has always been an 'anti-intellectual primitivist' tendency within the post-war folk revival. These people seem to believe that everything should be instinctive and that a singer/musician should think as little as possible about what he/she is doing. They also tend towards the view that 'anything goes in a folk club'. They don't believe in 'definitions' but they do tend to bandy about such words as 'entertainment' and (dare I say it?) 'fun' as though these are absolutes that do not need defining (a moment's thought would convince anyone - except a wilfull non-thinker - that this contention is absurd!). To me, these people are 'no fun' and I sometimes wish that they would go away and form their own movement (which would probably involve rather a lot of rock music).

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 07:50 PM

But I must say that most folk conserts I have been to, the performer/s do tell extremely funny stories between songs.

The classic case form that is Vin Garbutt - gives the people an achingly funny discourse, which may have nothing whatsoever to do with the song coming up or perhaps it may appear to be coming closem to destroying it - and then, wham, he goes straight into the song about some dead serious subject and sings it to raise the hairs on the back of your neck. And then he plays a funny tin whistle tune, which is pretty difficulty to do. (Difficult to play, and difficult to play so it's funny).

What it all comes down to is, "fun" is just one colour in the spectrum of enjoying what you are doing, and the other colours are just as important.

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 07:24 PM

"The best competition is oneself."

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 06:19 PM

Well, yeah, but for some people...being serious IS fun. If you know what I mean.

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: Alba
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 05:58 PM

"On the serious side though, I have come across some who see folk music as a competition. I just let them believe they are going to win and carry on enjoying myself!"

Now that's the kind of energy I like to be around. Fair play to you Lucy! 8>)
Warmest Wishes
Jude

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: Hawker
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 05:39 PM

Ha! FolkieDave! I initially went to folk clubs when I was younger 'cos I could get served under age and dance with all the eligible young batchelors at the monthly ceilidh! Now THAT was fun!
and 30 years later I am still having fun.
On the serious side though, I have come across some who see folk music as a competition. I just let them believe they are going to win and carry on enjoying myself!
Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: mick p r.m s.c
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 05:31 PM

I do a lot of heaving and hauling songs being a member of a shanty group but I love singing a good old weepy sea song or forbitter. When our group are singing out I find myself longing for our set or sets to finish so I can get into a good sing a round. As for fun in folk music a couple of my favourites that I like to sing are THE FISHFINGER SONG,WILL THE TURTLE BE UNBROKEN AND THE PIGEON SONG. Of course if I go to a concert to see a particular performer then it is only polite to sit and listen to thier performance,But I must say that most folk conserts I have been to, the performer/s do tell extremely funny stories between songs. I am convinced that folk artists possibly because of the type of venues they play at, have got lots of amusing stories to tell. KEEP IT FUN AND SERIOUS,IT WORKS.

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: bet
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 03:30 PM

What a timely thread. We just had the Fairbanks Winter Folk Festival this week end. I didn't get to see much of it but the part that I view was great musically but entertaining it was not. I spent the afternoon watching others perform on a the "big" stage. It's a stage where they schedule as many performers as possible for the day and evening. As I watched I could only think, "I wish they could enjoy what they are doing". Of the first 7 performers (single and groups), only one man seem to enjoy himself. They were all very talented and had spent many hours rehearsing. It just didn't come from the heart. The evening is usually the better groups. I'm not sure how it went, I had other obligations to take care of.
We need to have fun in life.   bet

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: oggie
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 02:53 PM

Fun - strange concept. Have just been listening to Nic Jones "Game Set Match". Hardly a barrel of laughs BUT the most enjoyable listen in ages. The sheer power, clarity and ability add up to an exhillarating experience. Fun? no, but I know I'll keep returning to it.

All the best

Steve Ogden

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: Declan
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 01:42 PM

I once shared a ferry for about seven hours with a group of people who were on a FUNtrek holiday. FUNtrek was an Irish company that organised holidays for 18-25 year olds. The obviously employed FUN couriers to ensure that everyone was having FUN at all times.

Even thoughI was 22 at the time I realised (and was glad) that my idea of FUN was different to my fellow passengers. I was very grateful that I only had a relatively short amount of time with the FUNtrekkers. If I'd had to endure the whole holiday, I'd more than likely have become a serial killer. And the FUN courier would have been the first to go!

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 12:48 PM

Actually, I think that singers who take themselves seriously tend to be more 'fun' than those who don't!

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: Leadbelly
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 12:46 PM

Gulliver, that's a very good question but you are expecting too much of me. Although my last name ist Goetze which comes very close to Goethe I have no idea.
Anyhow, it well could be because it sounds moralizing which was typical for Johann Wolfgang.
McGrath of Harlow offered a perfect translation. Because he knows a lot about literature ( The Bridge of San Luis Rey, haha... Sorry for joking) I think he will be able to answer this question.

Manfred

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: bubblyrat
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 12:10 PM

Festivals like Sidmouth afford one the opportunity to sample and experience the whole range of emotions. For example ,one could listen to George Papadopoulous singing some of his wonderful,deep,thought- provoking compositions,then go to the Ham,possibly and sit through an achingly,side-splitting Sid Kipper concert. This tends not to happen in clubs,in my experience, as they are either very serious,finger -in -ear EFDSS- type bastions of tradition, or else somewhere that features an'in- your- face',all-girl,lesbian ,punk-type electric band, as I saw once in Bracknell---and very good they were ,too !! ( if you like that sort of thing !! )

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: Bee
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 12:00 PM

One should tell this (fun) to festival organisers. I go to bluegrass festivals held by two different organisations. The same crowd goes to both, but they complain bitterly at one and have a great time at the other. The difference? Rules. One organiser believes less rules, happier crowd, and he's right. There are never any serious problems at either festival, but the one with the Rules takes the fun out of it. No Dogs, No Dancing, No Beer Near the Stage, No, NO, No, No. Last summer one of the headline performers actually complained: "I love the way the Rules work here. Takes an hour to enforce the No Spoons rule, but two lovely ladies dancing are escorted off in seconds! Oh, well, priorities, eh?"

The NO Dogs rule is the worst. The Doggy-infested festival is lovely, they're mostly itty-bitty trailer dogs, no one's ever been bitten and everyone cleans up after pooch. The dogs have a grand time being petted and over-indulged with scraps, and IMO there's something lovely about seeing people wandering about with banjos and beagles and the like. It also means the travelling trailer crowd can't come because they've no place to leave their pets.

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: alanabit
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 11:50 AM

I always find the gigs at which there is the most stillness are also the ones at which the humour works best. When the audience and entertainers open up their whole emotional range, they are both able to experience the best of each other. I prefer it much more to the boorish, superficial,"Let's get tanked and have fun", atmosphere of some of the gigs I used to do on the circuit. I think both I and my audiences are having more fun now.

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: Jim Lad
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 11:29 AM

Oh, I'd certainly choose sad over not funny, funny. There can be too, too sad though.

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 11:10 AM

that most folkies are intent on enjoying themselves.

Well, of course, that's always true. Even when we're relishing the sad stuff.

Now the funny songs which aren't funny - they really can be depressing. Rather like happy clappy hymns.

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 11:02 AM

Maybe one has to be Irish to appreciate the joy of being sad.

Irish? You should meet the Hungarians. They can get so happy with performances they commit suicide!!

I do think their is a big difference between a folk club - a session and for example a large festival like Sidmouth.

One has only to watch the crazy antics of Great Western and other Morris teams to realise that most folkies are intent on enjoying themselves.

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 10:27 AM

"Nothing is as seriously taken by the Germans as the preparation on fun"

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: Gulliver
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 10:19 AM

Leadbelly, was it Goethe who said:

"Nichts wird von den Deutschen so ernsthaft genommen wie die Vorbereitung auf Spass"?

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: Gulliver
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 10:16 AM

Personally, I think this idea of "having fun" should be taken a lot
more seriously.

:D

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 08:44 AM

Yes, of course you can enjoy listening to sad songs as well as happy or funny ones.

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: kendall
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 08:36 AM

My ex wife hated sad songs. She called them "emotional rape". My thought is, we were given a wide range of feelings, so why would we want to stay on the funny side all the time?

One night in Portsmouth I sang a sea song and there was an elderly lady in the front row weeping. After the performance I asked her what that was about, and she told me that her late husband had been a seafaring man, and was lost at sea. So, why did she sit there being miserable? Answer, because she WASN'T miserable. Maybe one has to be Irish to appreciate the joy of being sad.

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: jacqui.c
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 08:14 AM

We're just back from a weekend folk gathering. I came back on a real high, having had a wonderful weekend singing and listening to others performing. I'm looking forward to coming to the UK next week as I'll try and get to at least one new session and, I hope, a few that I've been to before during the three weeks I'm there.

I would say that folk music is a joy for me - it goes further than fun. The satisfaction of putting across a favourite song and knowing that it has hit home, be it something serious or the new parody I've found, can't really be described. When with Kendall I also have the joy of performing together, who could have a better accompanist?

I'm still in the early learning stage as far as folk music is concerned and so there is also the joy of hearing new songs or finding out more about familiar songs from those with a greater knowledge than myself. There are always new discoveries around the next corner and new voices to hear.

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: Leadbelly
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 08:08 AM

Thanks, McGrath of Harlow,
but you know...after midnight, haha,

Manfred

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 05:11 AM

What's this about setting out rules for music, folk or other? Music (and folk music of course) has different purposes: to uplift, to calm, to praise, to evoke, to educate, to relax, to call to a common cause, and yes, sometimes also to entertain. These can sometimes clash - a dirge has its purpose, but don't ask that it should be "fun"! Especially when, as Declan rightly says, people's idea of fun sometimes can be superficial, or in any case vary widely.

Accordingly you can have folk music events serving different purposes. Some clubs (St Albans Windward is an example) focus more on the entertainment aspects; others, like Herga, like to emphasise the educational, historical, preservational aspects while also keeping an eye towards fun. It doesn't make one club good and the other bad, just serving a different mix of objectives.

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 05:10 AM

Everybodys definition of fun is different.
Folk academics think it is fun to waffle on about how important the difference is between traditional and revival singers,and what a great time they had collecting a song from someone in outer mongolia,who could dance a jig at the same time,as combing their hair.
they remind me of train spotters.each to their own.
personally I think FUN is important,music should be enjoyed, at the same time respect, for ones material is important.

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 05:06 AM

I agree that some performers take themselves too seriously, and it can be hard work for an audience to sit through a long set of similar, depressing songs.

That's not to say that everyone has to sing comic songs with choruses for the audience to join in. There's a place for all types of music, but in my view the key is a variety of material. I try to ring the changes, and include 'funny' songs as well as 'serious' ones. You can enjoy listening to a song with a 'miserable' or 'depressing' story, if it's performed well.

Overall I agree, folk should be enjoyable. If it's not, then people won't turn up to see you again.

Subject: RE: Folk Music should be fun
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 04:59 AM

giggling through Les Barker

Liz I have been there when you have been at a Les Barker concert.

Giggling is not a word I would have used.

When I was young we went to folk club/ceilidhs 'cos we liked folk music, had a good time, and MET MEMBERS OF THE OPPOSITE SEX!!

A much ignored motive IMHO.