Plug That Trad Instrument In!

Subject: Plug That Trad Instrument In!
From: JedMarum
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 12:48 PM

I see players struggle from time-to-time, on-stage with sound conditions. Normally, it's at a festival - with 15 minute turns between acts. There are typically, less then ideal sound-stage conditions at these events. You might see several musicians in the band, all trying to sound check the UNplugged fiddle, guitar, octave mando or several of each. There will be squeels of feedback and, "more guitar in my monitor, please" requests ... sometimes accompanied by shaking of the heads in disgust at the "rock and roller" on the console who just doesn't understand the intricacies of trad music.

Sometimes the guy at the console is not capable of sorting out the sound - but in my experience that is very rare. I've come to realize that I cannot expect good sound conditions at these events and I have to do everything in my power to make the sound man's job easy. As lovely as my guitars sound unplugged, in ideal situations - I always plug them in, on-stage.

I am sure the sound guys reading this will object when I say this, but Microphones on-stage are the enemy! They need to be kept to a minimum. There are great pick-ups now-a-days for virtually all the instruments.

If you stand on-stage with a mic one foot from your fiddle and try blend with a guitar that's plugged in, a penny whistle and a singer who insists on his or her own special studio mic ... you're going to have problems, more often then not. Get a pick-up - and take the time to find a good one.

It's true we often have folks running sound who don't know folk/trad music as well as we'd like - but that only strengthens my arguement. It is also true, these guys often surprise you by doing a damn good job anyway - and I am certain most want to do a good job making us sound good.

Of course there are exceptions to the rule. Of course there are experienced pros who refuse to plug in - but they pay the price ... and they become adept at knowing how to manage the problems they experience because of it.

Getting a good sound out of our instruments is only part of our job. Delivering that sound to an audience through the sound system is just as important.

I argue, if you're going to perform live at a festival or otherwise less-then-ideal environment; Get a Pick-up!

Subject: RE: Plug That Trad Instrument In!
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 01:13 PM

I agree with you, with two reservations:

1) A great many acoustic guitar pickup setups, especially the ones with under-saddle pickups that the instruments come from the factory with, make an acoustic sound like a duck. Sometimes like a duck being tortured to death. There are some that are pretty good, but they're still a minority of what's on the market.

2) Many people who plug in are so excited about everyone being able to hear their guitar that they turn it up to where that's all you can hear. "I think he must be singing. His lips are moving."

Peter.

Subject: RE: Plug That Trad Instrument In!
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 01:48 PM

In most situation like festivals I would agree with Jed. However at a lot of bluegrass festivals you'll note that a lot of performers are going to fewer and fewr mics on stage. Sometimes you'll see just one { Del McCoury is an example }. Our group has had the luxury of having pleanty of time for sound checks and we just plain play better the fewer mics we content with. We only used two the oter night to mic 5 musicians and the results were pretty darn good. It was great to actually hear the guy standing next to me.

Subject: RE: Plug That Trad Instrument In!
From: JedMarum
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 04:09 PM

Yes - Bluegrass can be a different world entirely. I'd still be able to plug in, if the BG stage wasn't able to handle the acoustics well.

And Peter - I agree that there are some bad pick-ups. I guess there's no excuse for having one, now-a-days. There're some real gems out there now, especially for guitar.

Subject: RE: Plug That Trad Instrument In!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 04:14 PM

Pedant alert: English Majors would suggest "Plug In That Trad Instrument" and you won't end your sentence with a preposition. :)

I have a whole variety of mics here that my father used, but I don't know if he used them exclusively for recording (he had a lot of cassette recorders over the years for recording sessions) or for transmitting his guitar. Maybe he never did that. I suppose there is a way to tell by the type of mic how it is used? One of these days I should do something with all of this stuff.

SRS

Subject: RE: Plug That Trad Instrument In!
From: Rowan
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 04:38 PM

Apart from the very string-centred view of trad instruments I'd say Jed's advice is quite reasonable. The last time I looked there weren't pickups made for concertinas and, while you could do a bit of a fiddle for tin whistles I don't know too many players of flutes or bellows-driven pipes who would be keen on the woodwork required.

Such players have, as Jed suggests, worked their way around the various problems and it's quite possible their music is more often played in a context that differs from the context in which many guitarists perform.

Vive la difference!

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Plug That Trad Instrument In!
From: Stewart
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 05:01 PM

My order of preference, best first:

1.A truly good acoustic hall that needs no amplification. Very few and hard to find. The musicians can hear each other and then blend together. As a former classically-trained singer and musician this was how I was trained. But, alas, it doesn't work in most places outside of a house concert or similar venue.

2. A very good microphone and a good sound person. A good microphone is better than any pickup and a good sound person who knows how to adjust the sound is wonderful, but also sometimes hard to find. There is one at our open mic - he is a professional sound technician and the best - only thing is he only comes once a month or less often, sigh!

3. A very good pickup can offset poor mics and not-very-good sound people. Most transducer types are quite inferior to a good mic, in my opinion. But I just started using a Schertler. It's essentially a contact dynamic mic, which you can temporarily attach anywhere on the surface of your instrument. It's a bit pricey, but I can use it on my fiddle, guitar, and my wife's hammered dulcimer. It gives a true acoustic sound and for my fiddle at least, the eq on the sound board can be set flat across (little or no adjustment required by the sound person). I use this at the open mic with inexperienced sound people, in noisy bars where it is an absolute requirement, and on festival stages. It has an XLR plug and works just like a mic as far as the sound board is concerned (requires no extra preamp other than what's on the board - in fact you have to tell the sound person to turn the gain down from where it is normally set for most stage microphones).

4. Most other piezo and other type of transducer pickups in my opionion are so much inferior to a good acoustic instrument - I wouldn't want to use them. And with any stage microphone, for my fiddle I have to instruct most sound people how to properly adjust the eq (turn the treble down!) or they get all the squeaky high freq. sounds. Most sound people just don't know how to deal with it.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Plug That Trad Instrument In!
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 05:08 PM

I do know where you're coming from, Jed and in a perfect world I'd have to agree.
However, I've spent a lot of money on expensive pick ups for my instruments only to have the sound completely destroyed by sound men at concert venues. I just can't take the risk, anymore.
I have a good vocal mike and another instrument mike which reproduces exactly what it picks up. I can step back or move in as I please and take the blame myself if the sound is bad.
I still have pick-ups in some of my instruments but I honestly can't remember the last time I used them.
Add to this... My instruments are all custom made. I'm not inclined to dangle cables from them. In fact, the gentleman who made my bouzouki implored me not to have him install a pick-up. I agreed.
I also agree with Stewart: " A good microphone is better than any pickup".
Good to know that you're enjoying yours though.

"Sound person!" hmmm! I have to work on this PC thing.

Subject: RE: Plug That Trad Instrument In!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 06:17 PM

I want to lobby for no sound equipment...more halls with good acoustics..and more house concerts.

A pick-up on a guitar always sounds like a pick-up on a guitar, generally artificial and often tinny. The best device if you have to use a mic is a good condensor.

Monitors are a new thing that require bad acoustic conditions.

Miking each instrument makes everything sound totally artificial and loses the feeling you have in a good folk concert where there is intimacy and players have to know how to play and singers know how to sing.

The single mic ala bluegrass usage is what we used to do when I played with the Weavers.
It was omni-directional and required some serious choreography but it pulled the group together. We had to listen to one another carefully.

Folk music is best performed without any amplification in my opinion.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Plug That Trad Instrument In!
From: Rockhen
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 06:25 PM

I play a 48 bass accordion and prefer to play it without having to resort to mics etc...but sometimes even an accordion needs help being heard, (lol!) any suggestions for a good system to use, that allows the player to balance the volume of the bass and treble to their requirements. A cable-free system would be best but I expect that would cost too much for me. Something that is fairly foolproof and that doesn't need a lot of fine-tuning on stage as, in my experience, there is often little time for that.

Subject: RE: Plug That Trad Instrument In!
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 06:47 PM

I have found that two peanut mikes velcroed to the pinky rests on my concertina and y-ed together into a quarter inch stereo plug work very well. I came up with this system about 20 years ago and have not needed to change. The only issue seems to be that there is a regular need to change the batteries.

Subject: RE: Plug That Trad Instrument In!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:18 PM

I have never seen a clarinet fitted with a pickup and I doubt if it's possible.

You can use a headset mike with a flute, as Chris Norman does, but that's a much easier task - the sound all comes from the same spot.

Subject: RE: Plug That Trad Instrument In!
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:35 PM

The only problem, I can see with headset mikes is as you say "the sound all comes from the same spot". It's a great concept unless you have to clear your throat etc. I love the mobility they would give a vocalist.

Subject: RE: Plug That Trad Instrument In!
From: Greg B
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:51 PM

On my button boxes, I use the MicroVox system---

http://www.buttonbox.com/accessry.shtml

Bar mic on the right, velcro'd on, on the left, a littler mic: the two
go out to a preamp-box, which I then feed with a stub cable to a
wireless box--- both sit on my belt above my arse.

The wireless box goes into a DI for the sound guy.

This sounds complicated, but it isn't--- I can change instruments
and just slap the mics onto the pre-velcro'd spots.

And, I'm really wireless, and properly balanced, bass and treble.

So I can jump out into the aisle if I want, and still be properly
mic'd.

Beats the hell out of a couple of SM-whatevers where the bass
side is going from 1 to 16 inches and I'm locked into the treble
side and getting whiplash from trying to stay in the right location
re: the vocal mic.

Not cheap.

Well worth it.

Subject: RE: Plug That Trad Instrument In!
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:11 PM

Wrong, Jack. There is a pickup for reed instruments.

I am completely with Jed on this one, when one is playing a festival style venue. You just don't have the sound check time. And those purists that think one cannot setup a pickup to sound great are just wrong. I use a Baggs Dual source (ribbon transducer and internal mic) and run it in the dual input mode. I can blend that mic and pickup and get a wonderful acoustic sound, full and responsive.

In a concert setting, I just take a lot more time and dial it in.

Mick

Subject: RE: Plug That Trad Instrument In!
From: Rowan
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:03 PM

I also have miked my anglo for the last 30 years; in my case a pair of lavalliers (that each used an AA, easily replaceable at any shop in the bush), plugged into a pair of sockets with only one outlet. But I also know that, when you have to play into a solo mic on a stand, the swinging of each side of the concer so that it faces the mic when sounding produces the sort of effect that oldtimers got by swinging the instrument in unamplified situations. That effect was sometimes just what the dancers needed.

But a pickup on a concer? Forget it! The music gets lost in the sounds of the mechanism. While I'll use a mic (or two) if I have to I prefer unmiked playing.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Plug That Trad Instrument In!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:12 PM

There is a flute pickup mic with wind shield - it has a velcro strap - it should work well too for whistles and recorders. It is intended to be fitted pointing towards, and near to the flute 'blow hole' - it should work fine with the 'fipple hole' on such instruments. Sorry, lost track of the link.

Subject: RE: Plug That Trad Instrument In!
From: Rowan
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 11:53 PM

There is also a transducer that can be used on whistles; Barb Scott had one of her whistles fitted with one when playing with Flying Pieman. Although it amplified the whistle quite a lot (so she wasn't drowned out by fiddles with pickups and concertinas with mics etc) I couldn't say it did much for the tone; some might say a D Generation wouldn't have enough tone to notice any difference, but I'll let the whistlers argue over that.

The same sort of transducer could be fitted into the head joint of flutes and clarinets, I guess, but my experience of players is they'd regard such fitting as a travesty and not countenance it on any instrument worth playing. Some might go to the extent of getting a new head joint made so that it could be fitted with such a transducer; others would regard the original head joint as such an integral part of the instrument's tone that it would defeat their purpose.

And some instruments are one-offs not just in the timbral sense but also in the mechanical; I've not yet met any players of the pipes and the older Irish flutes who'd give you tuppence for the notion of modifying their instrument.

Some "Trad Intruments" are just not part of the electronic age.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Plug That Trad Instrument In!
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 08:09 AM

If you can have all the mics you want, then fine, but many venues we play in have limited space, and micing up each instrument would be difficult. It would also make movement impossible, which is not always practical in such a situation.

So we all use pickups of one type or another - but we do use good quality ones. Don't skimp on these, it's just not worth it.

Subject: RE: Plug That Trad Instrument In!
From: GUEST,Riverman
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 08:24 AM

I've been through plenty of set ups of both the Mic and Pick-up kind over the years but have settled comfortably on a pick-up but WITH an outboard pre-amp which has been specifically designed for acoustic instruments and lets me work through all the EQ ruffles that my particular guitar is prone to when its plugged in. Having total control over that EQ is essential as every venue is different and will make your sound different too.

But it is certainly sound advice that you have to pay good money for good equipment. I did and now get more compliments about my sound than I used to. And after all, what your audience thinks does count.

Subject: RE: Plug That Trad Instrument In!
From: Scoville
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 08:37 AM

1.A truly good acoustic hall that needs no amplification. Very few and hard to find. The musicians can hear each other and then blend together. As a former classically-trained singer and musician this was how I was trained. But, alas, it doesn't work in most places outside of a house concert or similar venue.

Amen. Good acoustics work great if it's a concert venue and you can be reasonably assured that the audience will be seated and quiet. I wouldn't recommend it for a club or dance venue, though. Way too much extra noise.

We once played a concert (concert, not dance) in an old school auditorium and the acoustics were so good that a single fingerpicked Appalachian dulcimer could be heard clearly all the way to the back of the room. Amazing. It wasn't a large auditorium but for one dulcimer to carry further than about ten feet is something.

Subject: RE: Plug That Trad Instrument In!
From: Mooh
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 08:42 AM

In order of preference, 1) no amplification at all, 2) condensor mics, 3) onboard pick-up with or without mic and foot operated preamp. It's a fact of the business that we often don't get our preference, but can have fun, play well, and be satisfied anyway. There are lots of gear choices but the advice above is sound, you get what you pay for.

At least start with a decent axe, that way the basic signal in all situations is good.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Plug That Trad Instrument In!
From: pirandello
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 09:07 AM

The guitar is inherently a very quiet instrument (yes, I know it's obvious) and gets lost in anything other than a small, intimate environment.
Most piezo pickups sound awful, generic and nothing remotely like an acoustic instrument so, in most cases, the only alternative is a mic.
Trouble is you end up rooted to the spot if you want to have consistent volume and avoid feedback which is a bit distracting when you're trying to concentrate both on your performance and not subjecting the audience to ear-splitting feedback.

A really good new alternative, for the guitar anyway, is Fishman's Aura system which clones the tone of a specific guitar-in my case a Gibson Advanced Jumbo-and comes as close to a mic'd sound as I've heard...and you can move around! It would be liberating if this could be adapted for other instruments as well.

Subject: RE: Plug That Trad Instrument In!
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 09:37 AM

I have seen washboards fitted with pickups but I can drown out my voice quite well enough with mine unamplified- which seems to please most people! (Complete silence satisfieds the rest!)

RtS
(Rattlin' in the trashcan)

Subject: RE: Plug That Trad Instrument In!
From: Songster Bob
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 01:54 PM

I saw Waterson-Carthy recently, and the melodeon player (sorry, can't recall his name) had a velcroed pickup on the right-hand end of the box, and a wrist-band with a mic that he put on his left arm for the bass side of the instrument. My guess is that there was no "sweet spot" for the bass notes, where a mic would get all the sound, so he had the mic a set distance away from the bass reeds by putting it on his wrist. I don't know why he didn't do the same on the melody side.

Interesting, eh?

Bob Clayton

Subject: RE: Plug That Trad Instrument In!
From: Bernard
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 02:22 PM

Okay, I'm a solo performer, but I prefer to use a vocal mic and a pair of good condensers on a 'stereo bar'. I use three guitars, a banjo, a mandolin, English concertina, Anglo concertina and a piano accordion... which just isn't practical any other way.

Sound techies find my sound check quick and easy, and it's easy for them to get a good sound balance because I understand how the microphones work.

Okay, fair play, I'm a sound engineer in my day job... when I 'do sound' for people, I'm happy to say I'm often complimented by the performers as well as by members of the audience... ask Anthony John Clarke, Garva, Back of the Moon, Martin Carthy, Martin Simpson, Tom Paxton... to name but a few!

Plug: I'm doing Garva at Melling Tithebarn (near Maghull, UK) on Friday March 16th, with their special guest Mick Hanly - the show starts at 7:30pm and tickets can be booked via 01744 607566

The velcroed pickup mentioned by Songester Bob may well be similar to my MicroVox system - the melody side has three equally spaced electrets, which gives fairly even coverage on the melody side of my big 120 bass piano accordion (which I use for ceilidhs with a Sennheiser UHF radio system).

Admittedly the bass end isn't as important as we have an electric bass and rhythm guitar in the band, but my accordion is unusual in that the bass end plate has no holes in it other than one I once drilled to take a jack socket. These days I gaffer the bass end mic over that hole, which works amazingly well, with surprisingly little mechanical key noise.

Subject: RE: Plug That Trad Instrument In!
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 04:46 AM

I saw Waterson-Carthy recently, and the melodeon player (sorry, can't recall his name)

I believe it's Chris Parkinson (aka half of Sultans of Squeeze)

Subject: RE: Plug That Trad Instrument In!
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 05:45 AM

Nope - that'd be Tim Van Eyken playing melodeon in Waterson:Carthy and using the wrist strap thing.

Saul Rose is taking over melodeon duties very soon, but I think he uses stand mics.